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MensLib

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/r/MensLib: For the Development and Well-Being of Men.

Welcome! /r/MensLib is a community to explore and address men's issues in a positive and solutions-focused way. Through discussing the male gender role, providing mutual support, raising awareness on men's issues, and promoting efforts that address them, we hope to build a healthier, kinder, and more inclusive masculinity. We recognize that men's issues often intersect with race, sexual orientation and identity, disability, socioeconomic status, and other axes of identity, and encourage open discussion of these considerations.

Our Mission

The /r/MensLib mission is threefold.
  • To address inequities men experience through discussion, information-sharing, recruitment, and advocacy.
  • To provide a space for men wanting to push back against a regressive anti-feminist movement that attempts to lock men and women into toxic gender roles, promote unhealthy behavior, and paint natural allies as enemies.
  • To examine and dissect traditional ideas of masculinity to promote the development of men as better and healthier individuals, participants in their relationships, and leaders in their communities.

Resources for Men Guide

How does feminism help men? Check out this list of feminist resources tackling men's issues

Ground Rules

/r/MensLib is a space for constructive discussion of men's issues. Moderators reserve complete discretion to maintain a positive atmosphere, including removing comments and submissions, and banning offenders.
Keep your user flair enabled!
Flair FAQ

Commenting Rules

  • Be civil.
  • Friendly debates are welcome, so long as you stick to talking about ideas and not the user. Comments attacking a user, directly or indirectly, are not welcome and will be removed.
  • Slurs and hatespeech are prohibited, including but not limited to racial and religious bigotry, sexism, ableism, homo/transphobia, etc...
  • Do not call other submitters' personal stories into question.
  • Do not invalidate other users' experiences because of their identities, gender or otherwise.
  • This is a pro-feminist community. Members are not required to identify as feminist, but if you disagree with this foundational approach you are welcome not to participate.
  • If you found yourself in a thread because of an external link do not vote or comment. If the moderators suspect this to be the case you may be banned for 1-∞ days.
  • Don't be uncivil.

Posting Rules

  • When making a link post, please prompt the discussion by posting a top-level comment with your perspective or questions.
  • Image links must be submitted as a self-post.
  • Do not editorialize headlines. A good rule of thumb is to use the original or Reddit-suggested headline.
  • Links to reddit must be approved by the moderators beforehand.
  • No "outrage porn"-type articles. Additionally, if you have a negative story or experience to share or want to get something off your chest please ask the moderators first or post it as a comment in our "Free Talk Friday" thread.
  • Meta-discussion should be kept in the weekly Free Talk Friday post unless pre-approved by the mod team.

Moratoria

  • We do not discuss "financial abortion" in the context of consensual sex. More on this policy here.
Subs of interest
Social Issues
/r/Femslib
/r/Feminism
/r/Feminisms
/r/socialjustice101
/r/SocJus
/r/Blackfellas
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[–][M]raziphel[M] -2 points-1 points0 points  (8 children)
Can you link more information about the topic?
Your last question is argument-baiting and needs to be removed. It is also a red herring and not directly related to the conversation at hand. Please avoid those in the future so we can not only stay on topic, but avoid useless pissing contests (and the bans that accompany them).
edit: I haven't figured out how to use the mod flair yet, but I am asking you to do this as a mod.
edit 2: there it is.
[–][10+]Kiltmanenator 6 points7 points8 points  (7 children)
It is also a red herring and not directly related to the conversation at hand.
100% disagree. The conversation meta conversation at hand is "Is this a good effort? If so, who is getting in the way of it and why?".
Equal custody is an issue of gender equality. We don't see many bills like this.
A group of people have campaigned against a bill that would have addressed an inequality.
The most basic definition of feminism is a "belief in gender equality".
It is clear that the group campaigning against a legislative effort to lessen gender inequality is a notable feminist group.
Please avoid those in the future so we can...stay on topic
This bill, and this post is "[addresses] inequities men experience...and [legal] advocacy" sidebar. That seems pretty on topic.
There is no reason that a discussion in a feminist space, about a feminist issue cannot include a hard look at whether or not a particular feminist group's actions run counter to feminist goals.
To critique an effort by a feminist group is not to be anti-feminist. This can be done civilly.
I firmly believe that if we want more efforts like this to be successful we need to look at the people who are currently thwarting these attempts. It doesn't matter who it is and what they call themselves. It's totally relevant to ask whether or not a feminist group is doing "the feminist thing to do", because if we think there is a case to be made that they aren't then that can be used against them in future efforts to get this (or similar) bills passed.
[–][M]raziphel -5 points-4 points-3 points  (6 children)
Do not confuse the conversation with the meta-conversation. That's a Logic 101 and an Interpersonal Communication 101 issue. This is absolutely a sidetrack for the topic at hand, which is the validity and effects of the Florida bill. It's not dissimilar from asking "Is Israel Jewish?" and absolutely case of identity policing. Pointing fingers and saying things like "Feminist in Name Only" (or whatever epithet you wish to throw) is not only an exercise in futility, but also pointless drama. When anti-feminists do it (who do frequent this sub), that starts delving into bad territory and straying from the good faith premise that discussions require.
Whether it's a good or bad action in regard to feminism as a whole, or to stay on topic, good for men's issues as a part of feminism, is a completely different conversation. Do not mistake that difference, ok?
This can be done civilly.
Except it rarely is, and "civil" is not a synonym for constructive criticism. Things like this are often nothing more than an opportunity for anti-feminists and misogynists to kvetch and argue from a false moral high ground. Sea Lioning is a good example of this.
To say it's a loaded question is an understatement, and that shit simply does not fly here.
[–][10+]Kiltmanenator 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
If we agree that the bill is good, then it's imperative to discuss the people who oppose it, and what kind of justifications they use in doing so.
I just don't see how you can separate these questions from effective advocacy.
This is absolutely a sidetrack for the topic at hand
With 3/4ths of the questions posed by OP addressing the actions and statements of NOW I hope you can see why I think this is on topic.
OP is asking a bunch of feminists in a feminist space what they think of this particular group.....who happen to be feminist. It's not an unfair presumption to think that any evaluation of the actions/statements of NOW will be rooted in questions of feminism/menslib philosophy.
To say it's a loaded question is an understatement
I'd say it's pointed, not loaded, and that it simply brings to the surface what's in the undercurrent of every other question. To ask -ists in an -ist space what they think of the actions/statements of an -ist group is to ask how that group measures up to the -ism.
[–][M]raziphel -2 points-1 points0 points  (2 children)
Discussing their reasoning is not the same as asking "is NOW feminist", and I sincerely suggest you understand why I say this.
This question as stated is nothing more than a matter of subjective opinion and sets up a No True Scotsman debate, which is to be pointedly avoided here (or anywhere). "Their" feminism doesn't have to be the same as "our" feminism, and more importantly, it opens the door for anti-feminists to attack all parties, which they absolutely will do. We don't need True FeministTM bullshit discussions.
The question is pointed and loaded- it's very obviously an antagonistic gotcha question that reeks of bad faith.
I'm not going to discuss this further, because I'll be repeating myself and I've got actual shit to do today. Please focus on the bill itself.
[–][10+]Kiltmanenator 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
I get why you say it, I just don't think you can effectively counter advocate without doing something about the people who are thwarting you.
The best way to do that is to delegitimize them, and the best way to do that is to make it clear as day where they fall short of their ideals. Lay bare their hypocrisy. Some will realize their mistake, and for every one that doesn't there will be two onlookers who take an interest in the issue.
[–][M]raziphel[M] -4 points-3 points-2 points  (0 children)
You as an outsider cannot "lay bare their hypocrisy", and you cannot de-legitimize them- it is simply not in your power. You don't get to determine how they identify, and coming across as yet another antagonist simply does not work. It only serves to lump you in with the anti-feminists (and the misogynists who hide under that banner) and create yet another tribalistic pissing match that makes people defensive.
Give people the facts and let them make their own decisions. Ham-handed bashing doesn't work, even if you think you're using a scalpel.
"I disagree with this decision" is an acceptable approach. "I disagree with you" is not.
[–]Man-jusri 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
Your point is well taken about identity policing.
But what if he had asked instead: Is NOW's position consistent with your concept of feminism?
This would shift the phrasing from the objective to the subjective, while still promoting the intended conversation.
Would that be OK?
[–][M]raziphel 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That is a better question, but personally I'd rather avoid the subject in this setting, mostly because I don't trust random anti-feminist commenters who come here to argue to maintain a constructive attitude and not use it as an opportunity to bash on Evil FeministsTM (even if they do so "civilly"). I don't actually like banning people or deleting comments, but topics like this attract that sort of problem.
On top of that, my concept of feminism doesn't have to match their concept of feminism (or vice versa). Like most things, it's a big tent. This ultimately becomes a matter of personal perspective, which is inherently subjective, and more often that not breaks down into yet another a pissing contest and a No True Scotsman debate.
A parallel (conservative) example would be "Is Ted Cruz Republican?" I'm sure you and everyone else here can smell the bullshit in that trash fire of a question a mile away.
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