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INSIGHTFULBeing Woman (self.RedPillWives)

StingrayVC が 投稿

I've seen time and again women coming here and being disgusted with their own female nature. We read the articles in the Manosphere or at TRP and we see a lot of truths about the state of women today. This can cause heartache at what we have done wrong in our own past and even for who we inherently are.

It is not wrong to be a woman. It was what we were born to do. All of those things within our nature that people see as bad today, depending on what we do with them, can also be used as a good. It is our own choice how to live our lives as women and to be good or bad in that life. Being woman alone is not enough.

So, when you want to despair at what you read (and I know what that is like. I've been there), don't. We are not inherently bad. It is the choices we make that define whether or not we are good or bad.

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[–]cats_or_get_out 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said.

Being a woman is natural and good. Being a man is natural and good. Both involve a unique set of challenges, advantages, and disadvantages. To hold one sex as more virtuous or more "evil" than another is absurd.

[–]Gynocratic_Misandrst 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

I've seen time and again women coming here and being disgusted with their own female nature. We read the articles in the Manosphere or at TRP

This might get deleted because I'm not toeing some line, or I might get called out for being a troll, but this might be one of the only times I'm not.

If you're disgusted at a set of opinions of you, you need to do up to two things:

  1. Determine if those opinions accurately model reality, and

  2. if they do model reality, consider changing.

For the first one, I think you really need to think about what the manosphere and TRP say about women. They say (especially TRP) AWALT, and that you aren't loyal. That once you see a 'better man', you're going to develop feels (regardless of personal closeness) and inevitably act on those feels, and cheat, or divorce for cash and prizes. Who doesn't like Chad, right? Only that (IMO) it just isn't true. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get hitched to a 'good man'. No one wants some basement dwelling loser who doesn't take care of himself, and doesn't really try at life. The manosphere accuses you of just being flat out unable to form a real emotional connection with another human being. Do you think that's true?

If those opinions do apply to you (even if not AWALT), I guess that's something this subreddit can help you with. I don't agree with all the material here, but, if you assume/believe the worst about yourself (and for some people, maybe their accusations apply, and they need to work on themselves), I guess you can come here to fix it after a fashion.

The bottom line I would give you about your disgust: I would take anything you read on the manosphere or TRP with a lot of salt. Like, a truckload. It is more likely to be written by a bitter, rejected, teenager or early 20-something than someone who actually has any actual experience with women.

[–]PhantomDream09 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think you're trolling, and you raise some valid points.

For user's that do have negative feelings after reading certain material - we generally tell them two things:

  1. Stop reading the material!
  2. Take the words (as you mentioned) with some salt. We then try to explain things as best we can in a less alarming (but still useful and honest) way.

We do agree with and talk about AWALT here - but it's not "all women lack loyalty, integrity etc", it's more "there are negative behaviors that can become default/gut reactions if we aren't mindful. I have always said that "when a woman believes herself to be immune to AWALT, she becomes that much more likely (and susceptible to) AWALT behaviors."

Women should be aware of their faults, and less desirable traits so that they can minimize and improve on those things.

Overall, I think you hit on a lot of good points and your comment definitely belongs. :0)

[–]Gynocratic_Misandrst 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Stop reading the material!

While I recommend that you stop reading TRP and the manosphere, because I think they're hyperbolic and misogynistic, I don't think shutting out 'bad feels' material is the best answer. Valid criticism can come from any corner, and should be at least considered before being dismissed. Otherwise, you end up in the echo chamber/circle jerk/only-affirmation spaces where your worldview is shared and only reinforced.

What if I adjusted your statement, like this:

Women People should be aware of their faults, and less desirable traits so that they can minimize and improve on those things.

I think it still holds true. But, it sets aside red pill, blue pill, feminism, or anything like that. Then it's just a mantra of responsibility.

The problems I have with red pill are material in the following ways: They heap all faults on women, and universalize them: AWALT. Red pill (for men) becomes about ascribing their failures to women, and their policies become about treating women badly because they deserve it. That isn't taking ownership of yourself and taking responsibility. It's firing a blame-cannon.

Following Red pill philosophy for women becomes about accepting blame. You take 'AWALT' and you apply it to yourself. Then, whenever your partner is angry, or going to cheat, or whatever, it's your fault, because you did something wrong. You become blind to the flaw of your partner, because they've already shown you that everything is your fault. I disagree with AWALT not only as logical false dichotomy, and the resulting demonization of women, but because it implicitly suggests men are faultless.

Sure you could accommodate the faults in men you choose to be with. But, you don't have to, and certainly don't kid yourself that if there's any blame to be handed out, that it's automatically yours.

[–]PhantomDream09 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Specifically on this sub, we focus solely on how women contribute to problems because "you can't change/control other people." We offer actionable advice, encouraging women not to flip out over the mundane, to stop hoping/trying/waiting for their man to change. This is why vetting is really important, and finding a good man (not planting roots with an undesirable, incompatible, drunk).

It's not that we think men are without flaw (I actually think male solipsism gets overlooked or out right ignored far too much).

I don't have an issue with RP ideas (men and women are different etc etc --> you can take a look at the wiki for more information. Camille has done a wonderful job compiling a lot of different information.

We do tell users to accept blame for the problems they help create. We give actionable advice based on the idea that we can only control ourselves. We also recognize that we are only getting one side of the story when a user seeks advice. I can't tell you how many times we have uncovered really important (and conveniently omitted) information.

The users that (on the old sub) always seem to be facing a great deal of turmoil and conflict also weren't regular users. Drive by accounts, and users that said they didn't really agree with RPW...but they wanted advice all the same.

There's always blame to go around in relationships, around here there's no 'talk things through carefully and at length.' Why? Well for one thing (and this is just my opinion) any couple should already have the 'talk to each other' as an option. You don't need to go online and ask strangers to know that's an option. Additionally, that kind of feedback is also readily available pretty much anywhere else. This community tries to offer advice that doesn't often get a lot of airtime, and I am well aware that a common criticism of this community is that we are constantly "victim blaming" heartless harpies.

We are going to point out flaws, we are going to offer solutions, and it's not always going to be a sweet-fuzzy-hug-the-world moment.

Users that come for advice can either stay in the relationship and pursue some of the suggestions that are offered, they can talk and cross their fingers hoping the man will change, or they can leave. We have (and will continue) to tell users to leave bad relationships with sub-optimal men. We just aren't ever willing to say that the non-present party (generally the man) is totally at fault, or offer advice that hinges entirely on getting the other person to do things.

I agree that people should be aware of their faults - this sub mainly deals with women, which is why I initially said "women should be aware of the faults..."

Then, whenever your partner is angry, or going to cheat, or whatever, it's your fault, because you did something wrong.

Context matters a lot here, as well as the relationship in question, and the personalities in play. A woman that refuses to have sex with her husband for 5 years isn't the same as a woman that is always sexually available/considerate - so when their respective husband's cheat, the underlying reason(s) why are going to vary.

Granted, it's rarely that clear cut. I think a lot of people see the advice, and deliberate focus on personal accountability along with the clearly negative connotations/attitudes on TRP and then assume that all the users here hate themselves...which would be funny if it wasn't also very odd.

You become blind to the flaw of your partner, because they've already shown you that everything is your fault.

I disagree with this and you general assessment, although I understand your points. Nothing you have shared resembles what I have seen, or the conversations I have had. I think a lot of the 'sadness' and 'anger' some women feel when they read certain things is mostly a culmination of personal recognition. They begin to see things that they were previously blind to, they begin to examine things in a new light.

I agree that awareness can go to far, and turn into something counter-productive....but I also think it's useful. Like the first time a child fully understands the concept of mortality and that death is unavoidable. A daunting lesson, one that some cope with better than others.

[–]madscientistlovemid 20s | engaged | 5 yrs 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then, whenever your partner is angry, or going to cheat, or whatever, it's your fault, because you did something wrong. You become blind to the flaw of your partner, because they've already shown you that everything is your fault.

The thing is, it's so, so easy to have a knee-jerk reaction of "what a jerk that other person is!" when bad things happen in our lives. I think by default, we like to blame ills on other people because it is an easy and painless explanation.

When something bad happens in my relationship, yes, I first look inward. That fight we had, did I contribute? And if so, how? I'm not saying that I am always to blame by virtue of being female... that would be ridiculous. But it takes two to tango, and when things are going to hell in relationships, it is usually both parties heaping shit onto the pile. I can't control other people's behaviors, but I can at least stop doing actions that are leading to outcomes I don't like.

In relationships, at work, in life... sometimes the answer really is going to be "What I am doing is 100% fine, and that other person is acting like a butthead." But in my experience, those occasions are fewer and farther between than we'd like to admit.

[–]goldengollygosh28, married, together 7 years 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are describing rage from a disenfranchised male point of view. At one point, I felt analogous feelings as the "men" on TRP, in my youth. Probably around the same age as most of the posters there.

For example, I felt sometimes that men were incapable of true love because they value looks so highly, above any other thing. I would see young men pining after women much more attractive than themselves, who they had nothing in common with, and interpreting that lust as love. Then I grew up, and began to see grown men qualifying their own feelings and learning from mistakes. I had suitors who liked me for a number of reasons. I saw men with overreaching standards being taken advantage of or left behind completely. I recognized both their humanity and their innate differences, and the challenges posed to them.

Neither men or women are inherently loyal. My level of affection in my own marriage has ebbed and flowed, largely as a function of how well the relationship is meeting my needs. In recognizing this, I am better equipped to meet the needs of others close to me, because I can recognize that love is never unconditional, and avoid holding others to standards I can't hold myself to.

On a forum where disenfranchised, low-value men whip each other into a frenzy, the faults of women (even if they are not unique to women) will inevitably be a highlight.

[–]Suzanne_by_the_River 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds reasonable

[–]Suzanne_by_the_River 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love being a woman, I would not swap it for anything (unless I was born outside of a first world country). I've never had issue with just not applying generalizations to me that don't fit so this quote:

When we first find articles deriding what women have become today, it is very easy to get down on oneself

doesn't really resonate with me.

I think being a woman offers one so much more flexibility. When you are strong*, everyone is impressed; when you are weak, everyone is sympathetic.

*No I don't mean "strong" as in striving, uptight, bossy, and bitchy, I mean gracefully competent and emotionally stable.

[–]eliza_schuylerEarly 20s, engaged, 3yrs 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I loved this blog post. I think womanhood should be celebrated, and this can be challenging in a community influenced by the idea that women are simply an algorithm- you do x, they do y.

I have known many strong, wise women who have served and endured more than many could imagine. We are fortunate to have the wisdom of older generations to lean on. Our nature is a precious thing, and most of the women on RPW are here to cultivate that nature into something better than it currently is.

Great post, and a great reminder! Thank you :)

[–]IrisandoleanderLate 20s | Married | 1 year 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I recently started reading "Let me be a women" by Elisabeth Elliot. The book is from a Christian perspective but it is quite well written. I'm not far into it if anyone wants to grab and it read along mini-book club style. I read a few chapters a night and they are very short chapters.

“The way you keep your house, the way you organize your time, the care you take in your personal appearance, the things you spend your money on, all speak loudly about what you believe. The beauty of thy peace shines forth in an ordered life. A disordered life speaks loudly of disorder in the soul.” ― Elisabeth Elliot, Let Me Be a Woman

[–]stevierose34558 married 35 years 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

I would be interested in the mini-book club style as long as it isn't in the IRC. I could not keep up.

[–]IrisandoleanderLate 20s | Married | 1 year 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let me know when you get the book and we can just chat in PMs with each other on our thoughts or make a thread if the mods are cool with that.

[–]PhantomDream09 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

You and /u/stevierose345 could make a new series together. Trade off on doing a write up of each chapter as you read it. Highlight excerpts that you like, or others that you disagree with.

Depending on your schedules, you could post a thread every Thursday...or pick one day a week that works for both of you. I think it would be an interesting project to undertake.

I'm actually thinking of maybe doing a similar project with another book that I absolutely love, "The Five People You Meet In Heaven." I remember reading it when I had just started college, and it really touched me. I'll just have to read it again and figure out if/how I can relate it to the sub directly.

[–]eliza_schuylerEarly 20s, engaged, 3yrs 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I love "The Five People You Meet In Heaven." Have you read "Tuesdays with Morrie"?

[–]PhantomDream09 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have not, though I have heard that it's a great read.

[–]eliza_schuylerEarly 20s, engaged, 3yrs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't recommend it highly enough. It's the true story of the author's visits to his dying college professor. A true handing down of knowledge and a life well lived. Also, beautifully written of course!

[–]stevierose34558 married 35 years 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay. Sounds like a plan.

[–]PhantomDream09 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

“You mean you’re comparing our lives to a sonnet? A strict form, but you have to write the sonnet yourself. What you say is completely up to you.”

and

A caution: Yes, a sonnet has rigid rules to abide by in order to make it a sonnet, but within these rules, the possibilities are endless. Do not hate, fear, or loathe your own nature. It is a beautiful thing when you learn to embrace it. Amazingly, when you fall into your own rules, not only will your life change for the better, people around you will react to you in a completely different manner, because the rules make sense at a profound level.

To be woman, is not evil. It is what we choose to do with our nature that will show what kind of person we are.

These are really beautiful, inspiring ideas. Thank you for sharing.

[–]StingrayVC[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you.

FYI: I forgot to put it in there, but that top quote is from A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle. I've fixed the post now.

[–]littleteafox 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ah thanks for posting this. I especially like the AWiT reference, I always loved that series.

Reading TRP stuff used to have me down on myself, so I've had to block myself from them. That, on top of feminism degrading and mocking the feminine, made for a rather unhappy emotional stew. It reminds me of Arya and Sansa stark. Viewers loves Arya because she is seen as strong, going her own way, fighting and being hardened by what's going on around her. Masculine traits. Sansa has a different sort of strength and strategy. She is much more feminine, despite having gone through much more emotional turmoil than Arya has. Yet turn she gets mocked and looked down upon (by viewers). Related GoT articles: 1 2

[–]Suzanne_by_the_River 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

In a cut-throat world like GOT, feminine traits are easily taken advantage of. Feminine traits like innocence, deference, and dependence inspire love and protectiveness, but when those instincts are overridden by greed (littlefinger and everyone who wants to gain her lands and title) or lust (Ramsay, all the rapists in GOT, etc) things can go south very quickly.

[–]cakeforallofyou26, married four years, together 5 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. Being feminine like Sansa doesn't go across well in a world ruled by Cerseis.

[–]TheSemenArsonist 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

So basically this?

[–]StingrayVC[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I especially like the AWiT reference, I always loved that series.

It was only in the last 6 months or so that I found out this was a series rather than a stand alone book. I read it as a kid and I loved it. I had no idea there were more.

I am headed to the library later today to pick up the second in the series to listen to with my kids.

[–]HieronymusBoschCloneAwesomely Anonymous 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Consistency definitely isn't one of their strong suits. That's why it pays to read blogs; at least they're usually internally consistent.

[–]LittleknownfactsMid 20s /LTR/ 2 Years 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It reminds me of Arya and Sansa stark. Viewers loves Arya because she is seen as strong, going her own way, fighting and being hardened by what's going on around her. Masculine traits. Sansa has a different sort of strength and strategy. She is much more feminine, despite having gone through much more emotional turmoil than Arya has. Yet turn she gets mocked and looked down upon (by viewers).

Yes! Whenever I tell people that I think Sansa is "weak", because she cannot fight and she cannot manipulate people always assume I am hating on her, they say I'm not giving her enough credit. But I love Sansa, she is the most realistic character, what teenage could/would act differently than Sansa has? Her story is just as compelling and beautiful even if she is a more passive character. She doesn't need to be "strong" to be interesting.

[–]Sunhappy_DClate 20s | new relationship 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eh. This is really difficult for me to ingest.

Basically, I work in government relations and it's been EXTREMELY difficult to balance remaining feminine and accepting your womanly nature AND being respected by OTHER female peers. I am still sometimes struggling to find my place in it all.

I've had female supervisors outright tell me to not dress in feminine ways, avoid certain hairstyles, to stop wearing makeup highlighting my face....even changing my behavior in certain ways (like blushing at jokes, or being publicly joyful or something) because it would lower my level of respect among others and being feminine = not being taken seriously. I have been advised to put off serious relationship and having kids before 30, for a career. I am always told that I can "DO IT ALL" if I want to. And you feel intimidated because you want to advance your career but you have to get through your super bias supervisor to get that promotion.

Example of the madness (this actually happened in a job interview):

  • "Sunhappy, where do you see yourself in 3-5 years?"
  • "Oh, well.....I'm 25. I hope to be a wife and mother by then. Career wise, I'm totally happy with driving the minivan to my job as a Grassroots Director or Policy Manager, haha! Since I want to have a family, I don't want to really go above Director level positions later in my career. "
  • "Oh....but don't you want to be MORE? You can do it all, you know? (starts quoting some Yahoo or Facebook female CEO)"
  • "....."
  • "Well, you're young. You have plenty of time to change your mind."

Eventually this crazy woman showed her REAL colors, and I left. With my current job, my boss is very feminine and she's the FIRST woman I've worked under who was. She's really really rare. She's happily married, in touch with her femininity and still WILDLY successful. But she's an anomaly who outright ignored the same advice I got to get where she is today. Some really think that in order to be successful as a woman in the workplace sometimes, you have to wear ugly gray pantsuits, have flat dull bobs, no makeup and be married only to your job.

EDIT: I should have made this clear. PROGRESSIVE women say all of this. All the conservative and Republican-like women who work in my industry marry much sooner (26-34 yo) and are much prettier. However, I work in anti-poverty work, which is majority lefties and feminists, and this hyper-masculine, "you go girl", "I can do it all" woman trend is kind of the culture.

[–]StingrayVC[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is really difficult for me to ingest.

I remember this. Are you a people pleaser? I think people pleasers struggle more with this than other women.

Eventually this crazy woman showed her REAL colors

Just remember this. With 99% of those progressive women, this will be the case. True colors are usually intentionally hidden.

Spend more time with your new boss and you will become more comfortable with this notion.

I was thinking of writing a post about what you talk about here. I'll try to do it soon.

[–]Sunhappy_DClate 20s | new relationship 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember this. Are you a people pleaser? I think people pleasers struggle more with this than other women.

Notoriously so! I'm working on eliminating this trait because it's proven detrimental to my life in various ways over the years.

A post on this would be lovely! Thank you!!!

[–]raisin_warlord23 | Monk Mode 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any pro woman book suggestions (not necessarily the "you go grrrl" kind)?

[–]tintedlipbalm 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm just starting Fascinating Womanhood due to a recent suggestion and seeing it in my recommendations for quite some time. I'm just at the beginning though, and would love to see it featured in the future RPW book club.

[–]ElCuloTeAbrocho 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

For the record, women are good.

[–]StingrayVC[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Women are neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Believing women are all good, sugar and spice and everything nice, is a large part of the problem today. Being female does not make us good, nor does it make us bad. We are what we decide to be.

[–]TempestTcup 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Believing women are all good, sugar and spice and everything nice, is a large part of the problem today.

It's the 'women are wonderful' effect.

[–]ElCuloTeAbrocho 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course, that goes without saying.