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Misc.Is it Weird That: (self.Buddhism)

KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen が 投稿

I don't honestly care to assert Buddhism as true to non-believers? I've been having discussions with Christians, Jews, Muslims and paganists about religion, and I'm noticing a pretty big mindset divide between me and them.

They're convinced going into any discussion that anything I say is not going to change their minds and that their views are more correct and it comes off as very arrogant.

When I point out that it comes off as arrogant they accuse me of asserting that Buddhism is true - something I don't do in conversations because I honestly don't see Buddhism as being capable of being true or false. I could care less if someone decides to pick up Buddhism based on what I say or not.

Am I alone here in thinking like this or is it a classic case of East v. Western philosophy/religion?

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[–]02attain 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

In my time on this earth, I have gradually discovered that people often don't like to be called arrogant.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't refer to people as arrogant. I only refer to their arguments or their reasoning as arrogant.

[–]02attain 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I suspect the nuance may be lost on most people! Many people think that their arguments, reasoning, beliefs, thoughts etc are them.

Instead of labelling such things as arrogant, be happy that they have found their truth.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Many people think that their arguments, reasoning, beliefs, thoughts etc are them

And Buddhism is a part of me - but I don't take affirmation of it being the true way as necessary as to me its just a philosophy/religion [depends on who you ask] that presents itself - and that I chose it because I agreed with it - not because I thought it was necessarily true, more just because it fits me.

That makes sense. Thanks for your thoughts.

[–]02attain 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Now you are getting closer to more helpful thinking.

But your reply reminds me of a Seung Sahn story. The teacher listens to a student who has just performed a noble act and says, "Very good, but you're going straight to hell."

"WTF?!" says the student.

"This part of me, I don't take affirmation, necessary for me, I chose it, I agreed with it, I thought, it fits me - all of these things will lead you straight to hell!"

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm afraid I don't get the message. I also don't believe in a hell in a metaphorical or real sense so I'm not quite understanding.

[–]02attain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hell is neither metaphorical nor real.

Hell is just a word. Look beyond the word to understand it.

Seung Sahn's story tells us that when we have a very strong sense of self, the I and the me and the mine, we are never going to be able to break free from our suffering. He wraps this suffering state up in the word Hell.

[–]asrava 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Is it Weird That ...

Were you expecting that people on reddit will aspire for anuttara-samyak-sambodhi immediately after hearing your opinions on Buddha-dharma?

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

No, I wasn't expecting them to change their views. Thats not the point I was trying to make. Its more that I wonder if its normal to feel I don't need to affirm that Buddhism is true or not - its just objectively out there.

[–]asrava 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

affirm that Buddhism is true or not

Affirm to whom?

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

To either myself or anyone in particular.

[–]asrava 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To either myself

Justified & also required

or anyone in particular

You (and your practice) will be at the mercy of external dharmas.

[–]asrava -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If what you experienced is 'weird' (i.e., not normal), you aren't yet grown up enough to practice or talk about Buddha-dharma in first place.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've edited my reply since you did as well.

[–]ringer54673 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

is it a classic case of East v. Western philosophy/religion?

I don't know if it is east / west. There is a lot of religious violence in the East. I think what you are seeing is that many people are inflexible and intolerant.

I don't think there is anything that can be done except to encourage people to remember that we are all trying to figure things out as best we can and that no one is infallible, smart people can disagree on lots of things, so we should try to be respectful when other people have different beliefs.

I don't honestly care to assert Buddhism as true to non-believers?

Are you like this just about Buddhism or all your other beliefs? I am like this about most of my beliefs. I prefer harmony to debate. It was a handicap in graduate school where if you don't defend your beliefs you can have a lot of difficulties. Actually, the way I express my inflexibility and intolerance is to assume other people are too inflexible and intolerant benefit from a discussion.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Of course there's violence in the East - that's not what I meant. I meant is this a case where followers of Western religions get this delusion that just because they are a follower of their religion that they have to be totally inflexible and intolerant?

[–]02attain 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Islam and Judaism are hardly western religions (nor incidentally is religious violence more prevalent in the east than the west).

People believe that their gods are the gods and the Abrahamic religions believe in a god who said, "...and all the others are bunk." THere are many buddhists who believe that their understanding is the correct understanding (and I'm not necessarily just thinking about U/asrava).

Beliefs aren't important actions are. Let people find their own truths and live their lives in accordance with them. Let 10000 flowers bloom.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I call them Western religions because I put the boundaries of East/West at the Caucasus Mountains and the Hindu Kush - and they originated in the area west of the Hindu Kush.

Let people find their own truths and live their lives in accordance with them.

Which is what I do. I don't tell people they're wrong outright. I instead offer counterarguments to any reasoning they use to make them think.

[–]02attain 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

People don't need counterarguments. They already know the truth.

People don't need their faith questioned. Faith is not a rational exercise, so there is little value in questioning their reason.

People think all the time. They don't need people to make them think.

Live your life by example. You don't need to convince. Show, don't tell!

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

From what you're saying - you believe that the discussions are pointless?

[–]02attain 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

No, they have a point. Otherwise why would you have them? The point, as far as you are concerned, is to get people thinking and to make them inspect their reasoning.

My (insignificant) view is that the point might not be very worthwhile. Be happy, love everyone, love yourself, be good, take care of others, show compassion, respect everything, accept whatever comes along. These actions will underscore any point you might feel is worthwhile trying to make.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

These actions will underscore any point you might feel is worthwhile trying to make.

This, I am in agreement with.

[–]02attain 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are a skilled redditor! If we were all a little bit more like you, this subreddit would look a lot more buddhist! You have shown respectful disagreement; you have questioned anything that you felt was unclear; you have highlighted convergence rather than divergence.

I applaud you! Now off to upvote and then off to work. Have a great day/evening/sleep!

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do my best to understand the way of Buddhism. I'm far from being perfect but I have a lifetime to learn - is how I see it.

I'm gonna hit the sack, thank you.

[–]asrava 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I meant is this a case where followers of Western religions get this delusion that just because they are a follower of their religion that they have to be totally inflexible and intolerant?

I think it is you that is deluded.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it is you that is deluded.

You're mistaking my use of the word delusion - I'm not saying they are deluded. Just saying that they possess a delusion. Are you and your ideas the same thing? Because last I checked, they weren't.

Also, why are you being so steely and cold? That strikes me as characteristically wrong.

[–]Rks1157Theravāda / Saddhānusāri 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

You might ask yourself what your motives are for engaging in this type of conversation in the first place.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Curiousity, primarily. I have a vested interest in learning about things.

[–]asrava -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have a vested interest in learning about things.

No, you don't.

When I said,

You (and your practice) will be at the mercy of external dharmas.

what did you learn?

You are much like people you complain about -- Inflexible and unwilling to learn.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Consider further posts from you to be ignored. You're not being constructive.

[–]asrava -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even if Shakyamuni himself appeared before you and talked about Buddha-dharma you will ignore him.

You really don't have any basic understanding of Buddhism because you cannot make sense out of what I said.

I am surprised that your label yourself as 'a learner'.

[–]Namtaru420passionate equanimity 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

THE EGOCENTRICS

People are self-centered
to a nauseous degree.
They will keep on about themselves
while I'm explaining me.

[–]athanathiospracticing the teachings of the Buddha 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Take my advise and a page from the Buddha, don't try to change people. The Buddha NEVER said to drop your faith and come with me. He said keep your faith and practice my teachings and if they work, then great, if not drop them.

I had a friend who I was close with, who is super smart, who was into a Taoist faith healer cult from China. I looked up his teachings and some stuff on the internet and found out a lot of people complained about giving this guy thousands to perform faith healings called "Karma cleanses" to cure their diseases and heal them of their affliction. He also told people they had dark karma that needed cleansing. Despite all this, the people at the place were happy and she found much happiness from them... I got into an argument trying to dissuade her. My main bone to pick was that Karma can't be cleansed by anyone, even yourself and I didn't get into the $$$ issue either, but it put a barrier between us. I realized I was really judging her and softened my approach and the barrier came down through acceptance. I guess if you want people to accept you, you need to accept them. Despite all my Saddha (verified faith) in the teachings and confidence in the triple jewel, I had a lot to learn about acceptance.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

don't try to change people

I wasnt, but okay.

[–]athanathiospracticing the teachings of the Buddha 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am not saying you are. Sorry if I came off, as saying that, I am simply trying to convey my experience on this front. Mine is far more specific cus it's a legitimate person who is probably in a cult. Overall I find that the Buddha's teachings are hard pills to swallow. Religion and politics are tough discussions that create a lot of heat.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Religion and politics are tough discussions that create a lot of heat.

True that. Most of these discussions start out by people saying something about Church or mosque and I just say, yeah Buddhist over here in the most non-offensive way I can.

As far as the teachings of Buddha being hard to swallow, I honestly disagree. You just need to be in the right mindset. And as I tell people - its one path out of many. I make it a point that I don't assume anything.

[–]athanathiospracticing the teachings of the Buddha 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with you overall they are not hard to swallow BUT these are:

  • Dependent origination
  • Root of all suffering
  • No Self
  • No creator God

Depending on who you are talking to there is an implicit ground of assumption that "I am something" this is hard to reconcile. Even after you see this truth and experience no-self in a profound way, it may leave you feeling very strange.

[–]KazuoKuroiShintoist-Zen[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The idea of no self is definitely a foreign one to many Westerners. However I believe no self to be translated poorly, as it confuses many. The idea of no-self or anatta is less that you aren't an individual and more that life is very interconnected and that we, as part of that are just as impermanent as everything around us. I am of the belief that you can be an individual while still understanding the root of anatta in Buddhism.

[–]thai_tongtheravada 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the most part religion is a topic which people don't want to be open minded about. This is because it is so common for people from other religions to criticise people's religions and to try to come up with ways to prove them wrong.

You will occasionally find people who like to hear about other religions so they know why hindus don't eat beef or why buddhists don't pray to god. These people can appreciate why hindus don't eat meat and at the same time they don't take that as a threat to their own beliefs.

Honestly, if you sense that people are close minded about their religion then don't talk to them further about it. This attitude is good for discussing politics, sport and most other things too.

[–]Ariyas108seon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is it Weird That: I don't honestly care to assert Buddhism as true to non-believers?

Not weird at all. Among Buddhists, it's quite normal actually.

[–]Dialtonertheravada 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I cant speak too much about your conversation because I wasn't there. I assume there was a level of arrogance on both sides because thats how it always is. Either way, riddle me this. Is talking about Buddhism with a bunch of mystics who aren't open to the Dharma-- is that Right Speech?