全 36 件のコメント

[–]Toubabi 34ポイント35ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm sorry, I'm from the South and this is bullshit. The only constructive things she says are pointing out that there are good, liberal-minded people in the South and that the fight doesn't end with a Supreme Court decision. The whole thing about sending more money there or keeping big corporations there despite the backwardness is just wrong. That's like sending more aid money to a dictator because his people are starving. Do you think the people who need it will ever see that money? Of course not. As long as poor Southerners keep voting against their own financial interests in order to perpetuate bigotry of all kinds then, no, I'm sorry but you don't get a seat at the adults table.

"The South is backwards and constantly on the wrong side of history"

Exactly! Constantly on the wrong side of history. That's the difference. Bringing up some examples of racism or homophobia in the North or on the "Left Coast" is important, that stuff still happens everywhere and we shouldn't forget it, but that is just not the same as being wrong every single step of the way!

"No, we’re not perfect down South, but neither are other parts of the country."

This false-equivalency bullshit drives me insane! "Sure, we fought a war to keep owning people because of their skin color, and sure we spent a hundred years after that terrorizing, murdering, and suppressing those same people, and sure, we're repeating the same pattern with gay and trans people today, but you guys still stop black people on the street for no reason!!!! See, you're just as bad as us!!! Have some compassion you heartless monsters!!!!" Give me a fucking break.

When the South decides that jobs or federal aid money is more important to them than hating certain kinds of people, then we can talk about compassion. Until then, yes we need to keep supporting those willing to fight the good fight where it's needed most, but part of that fight is going to involve public derision.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

As long as poor Southerners keep voting against their own financial interests in order to perpetuate bigotry of all kinds then, no, I'm sorry but you don't get a seat at the adults table.

But you don't want to help them by investing in business who can put leverage on the state legislatures, provide tax income to improve the schools. So what? Leave it all to rot?

but that is just not the same as being wrong every single step of the way!

Never said otherwise, just a little tired of the "Polite Bigotry" of the North being ignored for the overt bigotry of the South. Hell, at least down South you can see it coming.

This false-equivalency bullshit drives me insane!

Ah the "sliding scales of bigotry". Not as bigoted, therefore better. Gotcha. "Everyones a little bit racist."

When the South decides that jobs or federal aid money is more important to them than hating certain kinds of people, then we can talk about compassion. Until then, yes we need to keep supporting those willing to fight the good fight where it's needed most, but part of that fight is going to involve public derision.

Ah, the "I hit you because I love you and want you to do better" argument.

[–]Toubabi 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

provide tax income to improve the schools

More money will not fix the education problems in the South is what I'm saying.

So what? Leave it all to rot?

Maybe? I'm not really sure what we can do but I know you can't help people that don't want to be helped. My ex-governor, Bobby Jindal, turned down free money from the federal government for health care on principal. What are we supposed to do about that?

Hell, at least down South you can see it coming.

Ah the "sliding scales of bigotry".

Seems like you're just sliding the scale in the other direction, no?

Not as bigoted, therefore better.

What?!? Yes!!! Stop and frisk is objectively better than slavery or lynching! Oh wait, no, it's better because you can see it coming, right?

Ah, the "I hit you because I love you and want you to do better" argument.

Yes, because I'm condoning violence here. Are you saying that we shouldn't call people out for being bigots? Or just that we have to call them bigots in a nice way? I honestly don't get what you're saying. We need to make it not OK to do things like call John Kerry a "nigger lover" in 2004 (something I heard in my hometown). How do you propose we treat someone like that? By telling them "Oh, it's OK, it's not your fault. You just had a bad education!" No, we make them feel foolish for being so ignorant in the 21st century!

[–]GoldenHairedGodbeautiful blond bi boy 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

and we’re racist. Racist as hell. We know this. We know this because you won’t stop reminding us.

So like....stop?

With all this "we" talk it kinda sounds like the author is admitting to being racist herself. If people "won't stop reminding you" that you're racist it's time to stop being racist. Then the entire article is just the old "you're not allowed to tell us we suck because other places suck too!" logical fallacy and then a bit of whining and gloating ("I can quote eastern philosophers and read books, even though I'm from the south").

No solutions are offered, other than that people from the North should do more to "help" people from the South? How exactly? Just drive down to Mississippi with a bullhorn on the top of the car shouting "gay is okey" and "skin color doesn't matter"? It's impossible to help those who don't want the help.

This article boils down to nothing but "stop reminding me that the south is shit, it hurts my feelings!" You could stick that on a bumper sticker right above the truck nuts.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

With all this "we" talk it kinda sounds like the author is admitting to being racist herself.

I'm racist the same way "we" Americans are responsible for destroying Iraq in a war that never should have happened. Great try though.

If people "won't stop reminding you" that you're racist it's time to stop being racist.

Oh well, never thought of that. Problem solved I guess.

Then the entire article is just the old "you're not allowed to tell us we suck because other places suck too!"

No, never said you can't say we suck, cause I said we suck too. Juts quit pretending you guys suck less than we do. Cause with the way Chicago cops behave just as a singular example is pretty shitty. The fact that the majority of the most segregated cities in the country are above the traditional "Mason-Dixon Line" is pretty interesting in that people choose to separate themselves racially instead of legally is pretty interesting.

gloating ("I can quote eastern philosophers and read books, even though I'm from the south").

Cause people have literally asked me if I grew up on a farm, or if this is my first pair of shoes, or if I've been to a lynching. Yeah, I got asked if I've been to a lynching. A FUCKING LYNCHING.

No solutions are offered,

The last paragraph is literally a list of potential solutions.

Just drive down to Mississippi with a bullhorn on the top of the car shouting "gay is okey" and "skin color doesn't matter"?

It's something more than sitting on the internet being judgmental.

It's impossible to help those who don't want the help.

Wait, wasn't the whole article about asking for help? I'm litterally asking you right now, this second, "Help us." There, now it's impossible to say people in the South don't want the help.

This article boils down to nothing but "stop reminding me that the south is shit, it hurts my feelings!" You could stick that on a bumper sticker right above the truck nuts.

Hey, remember when I talked about how I hated being stereotyped as a redneck, and that it's shitty and judgmental to think that? Yeah, good times. (FWIW I drive a hatchback)

[–]GoldenHairedGodbeautiful blond bi boy 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Juts quit pretending you guys suck less than we do.

But, we do! I mean I'm not even from the US so I'm even further removed from this, but as bad as homophobia in northern america and western europe can be, it's WAAAAAYYYYYY worse in the south. This is like saying John Lennon is just as bad as Joseph Fritzl because he beat his wife once too.

Yeah, I got asked if I've been to a lynching. A FUCKING LYNCHING.

Makes sense. You are from the place where lynchings happen.

It's something more than sitting on the internet being judgmental.

Sure, but the actual response that's happening, public derision and businesses leaving the states, is actually effective so I'd rather we just keep doing that.

I'm litterally asking you right now, this second, "Help us." There, now it's impossible to say people in the South don't want the help.

You don't need the help. You're already progressive and tolerant. Going down there would just be preaching to the choir (people like you) while those who actually need the help (racists and homophobes) would just ignore it and get pissed off and even more stuck in their views. This isn't a fight that can be won with understanding and education. Hard financial and social pressures to prove that bigotry is once again the losing ideology is the only way to help this situation, as it has been in the past.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't need the help. You're already progressive and tolerant. Going down there would just be preaching to the choir (people like you) while those who actually need the help (racists and homophobes) would just ignore it and get pissed off and even more stuck in their views.

"You dont need any help solving racial issues, you're already black," said the Freedom Summer volunteers. And with that, they returned to their homes.

Makes sense. You are from the place where lynchings happen.

Yes, the rampant widespread lynchings that happen every single day. Holy Historical Stereotype....

[–]JobDoneWrong 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

So this writer is basically saying he is a a liberal in the South, and he's angry at the rest of the country because surely if we went out of our way to fix their problems then everyone else in the south would be liberal too? Seriously veering into "they think different from me because they're stupid" territory.

[–]Ghostofazombie 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

he's angry at the rest of the country because surely if we went out of our way to fix their problems then everyone else in the south would be liberal too?

And what's funny is that we did go out of our way to try to fix their problems. We fought the Civil War to deal with their little "state's rights" (cough slavery cough) tantrum, and then started building up a truly multiracial society with Reconstruction. They threw another tantrum, shut that down, and then tried to undo it with Jim Crowe laws for almost the next century. Now we try to fix their problems by letting many southern states continue to be net recipients of federal aid while they throw tantrums about welfare because they're afraid black people might receive something (not that I'm against welfare for the poor in the South, just that they seem to be the most vocal opponents of any kind of welfare except their own).

David Cross so accurately and sarcastically said about Republicans "I'm not saying that all Republicans are racist, sexist, homophobes, just the people they choose to elect into office to represent them are," and that broadly captures my feelings about the South as a whole. Obviously not all of the millions of people there act as a monolith, but the distribution of opinions is clearly shifted away from what I would consider to be the minimum level of human decency.

[–]Ghostofazombie 10ポイント11ポイント  (18子コメント)

Jesus, what an insufferable whiner that author is. Boohoo for the poor South, let's beat this old drum again.

[–]EliakimEliakim 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

I don't think he's whining, so much as pointing out that fighting individual laws won't change the mindset that got those laws on the books in the first place.

He's asking for a more pragmatic, long-term approach--not your pity.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

"She" (Not mad and raging, just saying), but that's exactly it. We're far from perfect, and there's not a Progressive Southerner that won't deny that. And there are a ton of us who bust our asses to build safe spaces, to fight for rights, and to make the South better.

We're just fatigued of getting dog piled by people outside the South looking down on us, mocking us, and not lifting a finger to help us.

[–]pyrespirit 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

and not lifting a finger to help us.

You should go back and look at the allocation of federal money before you make claims like this.

I'm sympathetic to the plight of people in the south who are actually decent people - but that's simply irrelevant to boycotting the majority who aren't.

It sucks that you, and other decent people in the south, get caught in the crossfire - but there's no good alternative.

The majority speaks that they're fine with abusing their power to victimize people, and I'm not okay with subsidizing them for this. Nor should anybody be.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should go back and look at the allocation of federal money before you make claims like this.

That's actually mentioned in the article. How the South recieves tons of tax money from the North, which people have complained about for years, but strangely now that economic disparity has started hitting hard above the Mason-Dixon, tons of people have started calling for more government help and wanting to raise taxes. You know...now that it's expected to be spent on them.

but there's no good alternative

When there's already a hefty "persecution complex" going on, boycotting isn't helping, and taking away economic opportunities isn't going to help anyone but the people immediately hurt by it.

You want to know why Charlotte, Atlanta, Austin, and other major cities in the South have cried foul about these discriminatory laws? The relatively wealthy, liberal populations, many of whom are there because they moved their from out of state for work.

All these boycotts are doing, is reinforcing a status quo.

[–]Ghostofazombie 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

I don't think he's whining, so much as pointing out that fighting individual laws won't change the mindset that got those laws on the books in the first place.

And clearly he's right. I mean, it's not like the Civil Rights Act was preceded by a number of smaller-scale court rulings, legal changes, and voluntary desegregation by private companies. Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

Individual laws have to be deal with in the immediate future, while the changing mindsets mostly consists of i) the losing strategy of trying to win over bigots with respectability politics and ii) waiting for bigots to die and be replaced by slightly less bigoted people.

He's asking for a more pragmatic, long-term approach--not your pity.

Actually, he's asking for compassion for the South. My compassion goes out the victims of bigotry, not the people who perpetrate it.

[–]EliakimEliakim 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

You can have compassion for people who are imperfect. You can have compassion for bigots for not being able to realize the happiness that comes with an open mind, while also having compassion for the people they victimize.

[–]Ghostofazombie 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

I don't want to inflict a genocide on them or something like that, I just don't waste any emotion on them at all. It would be pointless, and just make me upset, which is the same reason I completely write off the clowns of the WBC.

You can have compassion for bigots for not being able to realize the happiness that comes with an open mind, while also having compassion for the people they victimize.

The levels of suffering are so clearly different that it's obscene to even compare the two like they're worthy of being considered equally valid. It would be like saying you need to feel compassionate about the regret a murderer has because they committed a murder and also feel compassionate for the person who was murdered (and their loved ones). I don't buy into the Christian nonsense of loving my enemies, and I certainly don't feel compassion for them.

[–]EliakimEliakim 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

A poor child in rural Georgia who has no access to quality education and lives in poverty, and has been taught to hate gay people by the same church that is the only source of community support in his town probably has a worse life than a wealthy man in Atlanta who gets called a faggot every once in a while. I'd say that child is worthy of compassion, even if concerns for my own safety preclude me from actually being on the ground there to help.

And, if you correct the forces that made the child hate gay people, then you've eliminated the suffering of both people.

[–]Ghostofazombie 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you really going the "think of the children" route on me? Fuck off, the implication is clearly that we're talking about adults who are responsible for their own decisions (thus excluding people with severe mental disabilities, people who are impaired by drugs or alcohol, people who are asleep, in comas, or dead, etc).

a wealthy man in Atlanta who gets called a faggot every once in a while

Yep, that's the full extent of anti-lgbt oppression. You nailed it.

I'd say that child is worthy of compassion, even if concerns for my own safety preclude me from actually being on the ground there to help.

Of course, all children deserve compassion because they're so utterly dependent on the people around them for survival and education. This same compassion does not extend to people who take their terrible beliefs with them into adulthood, after they've had more than enough time to see why they are so absurd.

And, if you correct the forces that made the child hate gay people, then you've eliminated the suffering of both people.

Clearly. The problem is that this long-term work can't happen in the face of more serious detrimental and immediate concerns. This is why slavery had to be addressed before other forms of anti-black oppression could even be discussed in a meaningful way; after all, if black people are treated like chattel in large portions of the country then it's all but pointless to talk about housing discrimination.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (7子コメント)

I just don't waste any emotion on them at all. It would be pointless

We the persecuted minorities of the South thank you for your efforts. God bless you.

[–]Ghostofazombie 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

What are you talking about? I was pretty clear that my compassion lies with the victims rather than the perpetrators, regardless of what particular minority status you mean.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well, your flippant, "Fuck them, we tried a few times, so why bother. Let 'em rot. Maybe that'll teach them," has never, ever worked. Half-assed efforts have never worked.

Your other comments in this thread demonstrate everything that I wrote about in the article. That disconnected disdain from afar where its easier to judge than to actually do any damn thing but sit there and raise hell about how terrible the place is. You think cutting off the South's allowance or having businesses avoid the place is going to help anything?

You called it respectability politics? It's not, it's about helping us actually fight back and turn the bigots into the minority. But nah. If you're going to spend your time having the attitude of "Look at what we have done for you, you ingrates," keep your ass contently on the internet where it's out of the way of actual efforts to do stuff to make people's lives better.

[–]Ghostofazombie 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, your flippant, "Fuck them, we tried a few times, so why bother. Let 'em rot. Maybe that'll teach them," has never, ever worked.

I don't think they should be left to their own devices, as that clearly will lead them down the wrong path once again. I was simply pointing out that a great deal of effort has already been put into improving the situation in one way or another because the person I was responding to phrased it as a hypothetical. It's not a hypothetical, a lot of effort, money, and time has been put into dealing with the South, much to the South's chagrin.

Half-assed efforts have never worked.

When it comes to the South, basically no efforts (regardless of how much ass they have) have ever worked. In fact, the people of the South have always been the main driving force turning full-assed efforts into half-assed efforts. Again, see: sabotaging reconstruction, implementing Jim Crowe laws, etc. That doesn't mean they need to be abandoned, or that we shouldn't do whatever we can to encourage positive change, but it also doesn't mean we should be that surprised if/when our efforts don't work yet again.

That disconnected disdain from afar where its easier to judge than to actually do any damn thing but sit there and raise hell about how terrible the place is.

Boohoo, the poor South, victim of disdain from afar, how I weep for thee. If you don't want to have to deal with my disdain, stop doing things that make me disdainful.

You think cutting off the South's allowance or having businesses avoid the place is going to help anything?

Yes to both, but I think that the first would be highly unethical. People in poverty need to have a strong social safety net available to them regardless of however strongly I may disagree with their opinions. That said, I'm also not willing to give up the useful tactic of boycotting simply because people are throwing a tantrum about it. Do I expect boycotts to change hearts and minds? Absolutely not. Do I expect boycotts to have an effect on the laws governing LGBT rights in those areas? 100%, and that's what I care about. Be as bigoted as you want in private and I'll mock you as much as I want in private, but when that nonsense is put into the law I'll use whatever tools of nonviolence I have to try to change it. I'll vote against you, march against you, boycott you, or whatever, and I don't care what impact it has on your life or your finances. Actually, I do care about the impact; I hope it hurts you worse than I had anticipated, and that you either remain stubborn and in pain or quickly change just to balance your checkbook again.

I openly and gladly admit that I have a political agenda, and I intend to reward people who advance my causes and punish those who go against my causes.

You called it respectability politics? It's not, it's about helping us actually fight back and turn the bigots into the minority.

Yeah, I don't even understand what this means. It's very clear what I was talking about in terms of respectability politics. Also, as mentioned above, I don't care about making bigots a minority. I care about having equal rights enshrined in the law and having that law enforced fairly.

But nah. If you're going to spend your time having the attitude of "Look at what we have done for you, you ingrates," keep your ass contently on the internet where it's out of the way of actual efforts to do stuff to make people's lives better.

I'm definitely crying super duper hard because of how you really put me in my place by telling me to stay on the internet on an internet forum (about an article that you posted...on the internet). Clearly my efforts should be focused more on writing crocodile tear articles about the poor widdle Souf.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow. The hate is strong in this one.

[–]eternalkerrioklahoma's most famous trans comedian[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Shucks, you're right. We should totally feel like shit about everything we do because we are just such terrible people down South. I'll stop minding your business when you guys do something bigotted, but please, feel free to mind our business. But please make sure you mind ours only when its something bad to hold against us.

And sure, cut off any further opportunity for economic growth, and take away all that was promised until we learn better. Let's ignore a lot of the reason that these laws get passed is because those that pass them already think they are being persecuted and singled out for their beliefs. Surely cutting us off won't reinforce that persecution complex. Ostricision has worked so far, hasn't it? I'm sure those jobs that were promised before will suddenly re-appear the minute we revoke those laws. Jobs are not something that take a lot of economic planning and work to create, we can just wish them into existence. Economic pressure will certainly follow where no economy exists, right?

And let's keep those organizations, those non-profits, those people who bust their ass for the few benefits and freedoms that do exist grossly underfunded and surrounded. They just need to work a lot harder. They don't need you sending money to help, or coming down to volunteer. That'll just make the locals lazy.

I'll quit writing articles appealing for help that also express some frustration and just go back to my community organizer stuff. But can I please still complain on the internet when someone disagrees with me? Oh wait no, I'm supposed to mind my own business cause I'm terrible and the people I live with are terrible.

And please, tell us more how terrible we are. It always solves the problem when you tell us how bad we are.

[–]pixelexia 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Live in the mid south (as in closer to Memphis) and then say this.

The south isn't the liberal parts of Nashville and Atlanta, it's the religious infiltrated rural areas that make you feel uncomfortable for not being born there regardless of gender, orientation, or even skin color.

As far as racist, it is a huge two way street here and until that starts being discussed, it's not going to get better.

[–]leSemenDemon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

whatever, don't care, we need to take another 30%

[–]xenoxonex 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Poorly written article.

The south is constantly in the wrong. After you've shit on me throughout history in every possible way? And every possible time?

No thanks. Until your politics change, rot away for all I care. To this apparent 'liberal' community in your state, you've failed. Again. Cut your loses and move on. A bunch of people are.

[–]gnurdette 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good article.

The South has a dreadful history and a dreadful present. And they also have had, and still have, tons of heroes and heroines who have risen up against those horrors, all the braver for being in the minority and fighting on anyway. They deserve our admiration and support.

But I have to say - I think this article is spot-on w/r/t/ Mississippi, but North Carolina has much less excuse. Research Triangle has (for now) a density of technology companies that I really envy from here in the Rust Belt, where we've staved off that kind of horrible law despite an economy that NC wouldn't trade places with for anything.

OK, so our stupid AG did go to the mat to put Ohio's name on the desperate attempt to stave off marriage equality. You had to bring that up, didn't you?

[–]Lycanthrowrug 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

North Carolina has much less excuse.

The situation in NC is fairly easy to understand. Part of Republican national strategy in 2010 was to take over state legislatures in a census year in order to gerrymander voting districts in favor of Republicans. A bunch of Koch brothers/Citizens United money poured into NC, combined with a lot of fear and anxiety resulting from the Recession, and both houses of the General Assembly went Republican for the first time in over 100 years. The Republicans then went on one of the most vindictive rampages in the state's history, tearing down everything that Democrats have built including the university system and environmental protections. They've increased taxes on the poor and lowered them for the rich.

NC went for Obama in 2008, and it's still officially a purple state. We may very well elect a Democratic governor this fall. But we're stuck with a Republican General Assembly that did a great job of guaranteeing that the progressive half of the state is completely and utterly shut out of the making of laws and how the state is run. I know people who've heard Republicans laughing about how tightly they have the state sewed up for themselves, and, unfortunately, this kind of gerrymandering for political advantage is not illegal.

If the views of the general population of NC were accurately represented in the General Assembly, HB2 would never have passed.

[–]greatman05 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuck compassion. Them niggas used to lynch my people >:(

Burn the South down to the ground