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The Case Against Toby Tuner: Boogie2988 explains why he believes most of the allegations against him, while also covering sexual assault allegations in general and what it means to be a popular Youtuber (self.GamerGhazi)

cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death! が 投稿

In light of AprilEfff's posting of many shocking allegations (in her own words: "TRIGGER WARNING::: abuse, rape, drugs, pretty much everything terrible") against Toby Turner/Tobuscus several days ago, popular Youtuber Boogie2988 has posted this video called "The Case Against Toby Turner" in which he explains why he thinks most of the allegations are true.

He prefaces his position by saying he's not trying to cash in on the drama and just wants to contribute to the debate, as well as mentioning he himself has been abused and finds the topic difficult to discuss as a result.

Basically, he says he believes this incident is more about how rape allegations and popular Youtubers in general are treated than it is just about these claims against Toby Turner. He continues by saying that while it's completely normal to believe that the accused are innocent until proven guilty, he additionally notes that more often than not, most people who claim to be victims are usually telling the truth. He ends this point by saying that only the most horrible types of people would really try to make fake claims of sexual assault.

Later, he starts talking about how most popular perceptions of YouTubers are heavily skewed to be more positive because they're only small snapshots of who they really are. He elaborates on this by saying the whole truth can never always there, and even though he himself tries to be as "transparent" as possible, by virtue of the medium, he and every other YouTuber in general is restricted to only several minutes for each video.

He concludes by saying that victims of sexual assault should always speak up, even if they are scared that they will be disbelieved, saying that there will always be support somewhere for them, while also stating that if he'd spoken out against the abuse he received when he was younger, he'd probably be in a lot less pain than he is today.

EDIT: Welp, I mispelled Turner's name in the title because I really ought to proofread more.

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[–]josephthetankengineA spectre is haunting video games... 58ポイント59ポイント  (42子コメント)

Holy fuck, these comments.

why not? are u one of those people naive enough to believe in rape culture? the police are the police, they will treat u seriously

41% to 50% of rape allegations are false. This is from a peer-reviewed study conducted by Eugene Kanin that feminists have been trying to debunk for a long time and have failed. 41 to 50%.

Hundreds of upvoted comments just regurgitating the "why didn't you go to the police" (who totally never, ever just make the situation even worse for the victim), or "feminazis are just making up stories to destroy my favorite fuck boy" lines. And then, of course, these super special snowflakes complain about "herd mentality." Fucking sickening.

[–]Thoctar 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eugene Kanin

Whenever anyone brings up that study, I just want to tell them that a large portion of their data came from polygraph tests, and that polygraph tests have been shown to have been bunk. They were even featured on an episode of Adam Ruins Everything, who they might actually listen to since he's a white guy.

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 31ポイント32ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not to mention that Boogie2988/Steven Williams himself specifically said they shouldn't engage in that kind of behavior.

[–]josephthetankengineA spectre is haunting video games... 42ポイント43ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's like the Anita Sarkeesian shit all over again. A woman will say something, and all the internet fuckbois attack and dismiss her as an evil feminazi. Soon after, a man will say essentially the same thing and here come the upvotes because of how much more rational he was about the subject.

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, I remember Angry Joe spoke out against the original harassment campaigns. He got a couple angry Tweets, but the threats against him were never to the point where he had to leave his home.

[–]iamspacedadPsy-ops Specialist 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I recall him expressing how upsetting it is that he literally makes a career out of being angry and volatile in his criticism but women can't be critical in similar ways without fearing floods of abuse or even abuse campaigns.

[–]wanderingbishopKing Guy of Mesopotamia 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

His "no-one's gonna take away your porn" rant is still one of the most refreshingly blunt counterarguments to the anti-FemFreq brigade I've ever seen.

[–]SSG_Metal 44ポイント45ポイント  (3子コメント)

That "study" is fallacious as all hell.

"With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. These false rape allegations constitute 41% the total forcible rape cases (n = 109) reported during this period."

Nice sample size, and we're just supposed to accept that this tiny sample is indicative of a trend. In addition, there is no distinction made in that comment about differences between falsely reporting rape and an unfounded rape report. But in the anti-feminist world, variables and circumstances have no bearing on their absolutely literal interpretation. Another methodological problem is that the study cannot be reviewed with a new set of data applied to the same sample as the report does not disclose it's data source.

Secondly, the police force Kanin was studying used flawed practices for determining whether or not the reports were false: polygraph testing and intimidation tactics (letting reporters know before the polygraph that if their claim could not be verified this way, they would be charged with submitting a false police report).

Here's the report that comment references if anyone is curious: http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

[–]Ayasugi-san 28ポイント29ポイント  (1子コメント)

Secondly, the police force Kanin was studying used flawed practices for determining whether or not the reports were false: polygraph testing and intimidation tactics (letting reporters know before the polygraph that if their claim could not be verified this way, they would be charged with submitting a false police report).

A stressed rape victim might not pass a polygraph test? That can't be!

But seriously, that sounds like the worst police force to report a rape to. Did Kanin choose it because their standards favor broadly labelling rape accusations as false?

[–]ProfM3m3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Polygraphs are bullshit anyway

[–]SoltheronCome to me, dark misanderers, battle awaits us. 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

"No rape culture! Here, let me show you a study that exemplifies rape culture."

So, you have a guy essentially debunking his first sentence with his second sentence. Seems about right for YouTube comments.

[–]tebrasd 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

the police are the police, they will treat u seriously

They tottaly are the good guys people, they never do anything wrong. /s #blacklivesmatters

[–]someshatteringfawn 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

it will never cease to baffle me how the younger corners of the internet are so firmly "fuck the police" until they have to choose whether they hate the police or women and minorities more.

[–]IndieLady 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, people can be raped and there can be no evidence of that rape. Particularly when talking about rape between partners or friends. Many victims wouldn't bother going to the police because they know there's not enough proof to secure an investigation (let alone conviction). Doesn't mean the rape didn't happen.

[–]SpeakofSmallThingsdepressed trans(mtf) commie 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

ACAB

[–]josephthetankengineA spectre is haunting video games... 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

#alllivesmatter you reverse racist !!!

[–]zereissen 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

In case anyone else was curious about that study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Kanin_.281994.29

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hopefully, this video will explain to some of his fans why most rape victims are afraid to speak out against their tormentors. These kinds of crimes are so heavily under-reported it's nightmarish. No wonder people are terrified.

[–]tkrr 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

Phillip De Franco did a video about actually working with Turner. His ultimate conclusion was that he didn't know whether Turner is guilty of the charges, but he did essentially say Turner is a rolling dumpster fire of a human being and implied (but didn't outright state) that he wouldn't be too surprised if the charges were true. Beyond pointing out that Turner is a pretty charismatic guy, De Franco had very little good to say about him...

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Boogie2988 did link De Franco's video in the description of his own. The reason why I posted his one was because he gives more of a context to the situation itself.

[–]Thoctar 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Honestly, the best video against Toby Turner I've found is Phillip DeFranco's. While he doesn't explicitly say he thinks Toby does it, you can tell he wouldn't exactly be surprised by it, and talks about his own personal experiences with Toby, including flashing a female friend at his party, and having to be removed from DeFranco's wedding.

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think De Franco does a fair job of explaining why Turner might be unstable.

[–]dayum-son 40ポイント41ポイント  (16子コメント)

"innocent until proven guilty" does not mean "assume the victim is lying-ass bitch"

This is gonna come off as cynical but frankly, the only way to really be "fair" about this is to assume a neutral position, take any clams from all sides with some health skepticism and attempt to come to some kind of conclusion.

I mean, I can tell you right now I've got enough reason to believe he did it based on multiple testimonies from a ton of people, but I'm not leaping to any kind of concrete conclusion.

I dunno, I know it's depressingly common that rapists tend to "get away with it" but when this while thing first came out I saw a lot of people jumping to the conclusion that he MUST OF DONE IT and, I dunno, maybe it's me be I could see why someone would attempt to generate outrage on our "side thats only very loosely a side" just like how people ride in gator outrage.

Frankly what this whole thing has shown to me is that Twitter is an awful medium for attempting to discuss anything other than smalltalk, and the fact that it's become such a BIG medium for "important stuff" is worrying.

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (13子コメント)

While only Amelia Talon and Clare Loudres have come out totally behind April (including the rape allegations), other elements of April's story (like the drug abuse and the cheating) have been supported by many more people who knew him on a personal level.

I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on this incident or (incidents like them in general), but I doubt this was done just to smear Turner if so many have come out in support for parts, if not most, of April's account.

[–]BelmontBrosDylan 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think your stance makes sense. It still seems like you're giving both sides a fair shake, even if you're leaning towards April's account of things (as do I, for the record).

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

From several years back, I used to enjoy Tobuscus videos a lot. I really didn't want to believe what that post said, but I also didn't think the whole thing could have been made up either because I've heard many similar stories before. Then there were all those people who say they could confirm some of April's version of events, which is why I must regretfully conclude that a person I used to enjoy watching the content of (especially his literal trailers) appears to have been fairly unstable and unfaithful and potentially even violent and manipulative.

[–]BelmontBrosDylan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still don't feel comfortable "concluding" anything, but if I were a betting man, my money would be with your argument.

[–]KadabraJuices 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

actually you're missing an important one. katers17 has come out as well claiming to have been drugged and raped: https://www.facebook.com/Katers17/posts/10154091500793627

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wasn't aware of that last one because it was posted very recently, but thanks for pointing it out.

[–]dayum-son 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh no in the context of Turner I definitely don't thing it's a smear thing at all, I was just saying that in a general context.

[–]tkrr 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

More to the point, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal concept. It doesn't preclude someone from making their own judgements.

[–]Thoctar 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

One thing I really love about this guy's video is that he points out "only a minority of rape claims are false or unprovable." That is so critical to the whole thing, because assholes love to talk about how so many rape claims are "false" when they're dismissed for lack of evidence. A lot of the time there is no evidence for a rape occurring besides the testimony of one person so they can't go ahead with charges. That doesn't mean it was false, it just means there wasn't enough evidence.

[–]tebrasd 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even if many rape claims are false, like 50%. (as that stupid idiotic study would suggest) Would you still not need to take them all serious? If something is 50% like something weird. You have about 50% chance that maybe your car will explode. Would you not take it straight away to a mechanic to be checked out?

[–]RexStardustSJW before it was cool -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's like if a cop pulls you over for speeding and doesn't give you a ticket, you were magically travelling at the speed limit the whole time.

[–]SSG_Metal 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

The statistical argument is usually the best lead-in for a discussion of why claims should be treated as generally true, or with the respect and gravity that they deserve. The majority of rape goes unreported, and only about 10% of those remaining claims are ever proven false. The simple conclusion is to assume that the person at least has a reason for why the claims are being made, and that the claim has some element of truth to it worthy of being investigated.

I say this because empathetic arguments usually fall on deaf ears with reactionary shit stains like those in the comments of the video.

And yes, it does say some pretty terrible things about the people that this has to be explained to. i.e. anti-feminists

[–]KillerIsJedPersonally responsible for censorship 17ポイント18ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm internet friends with Boogie. He is a great guy. Did you know he is apparently on the GG blockbot / list? He told me himself when I had mentioned thinking about using it.

I don't think he is perfect, but who is? I think he genuinely doesn't mean any harm to anyone and I'm glad he is speaking up about these things.

[–]cdtsI am the Scales of Justice! Conductor of the Choir of Death![S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

I usually like his content. He sometimes says a few ignorant things here and there that annoy me, but for the most part he seems like a genuinely good person.

[–]Aerik 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

the blockbot is not for blocking bad people. it's not just for that.

it's about evading gamergate drama entirely. there are plenty of people on that list that are ignorant, neutral, or anti GG. you use the blockbot b/c you don't want to breathe gator fart, whether directly or just being wafted by somebody else's motions.

[–]SientoTwo 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

the blockbot is not for blocking bad people. it's not just for that. it's about evading gamergate drama entirely.

Exactly. I certainly don't want to hear one side of a shouting match -- I just want to be able to follow GDC hashtags and see people actually talking about GDC. I block/mute plenty of people from all political persuasions just to lower the noise level and make twitter usable.

[–]pcmmm 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

He's actually on the whitelist

[–]SL128Skeleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm relieved to see that KFC is safe.

[–]RexMundane 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Did you know he is apparently on the GG blockbot / list?

...um... no? Because he's not actually on the GG autoblocker list? Not sure why he'd say he was but, as far as I can tell as a user of said list, he's not blocked for me.

[–]DoldenbergVIDEO GAME FEMINISTS STOLE MY ICE CREAM 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I remember right he initially was somewhat Pro-Gamergate and accordingly followed some of the accounts that put you on the blocklist. But if I also remember right, he was added to the whitelist.

[–]KillerIsJedPersonally responsible for censorship 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Weird, he specifically told me he was. Maybe he was mistaken.

[–]xenoghost1Social Studies Warrior 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

apparently he is on both

and thanks to this video he might soon enough land on the blacklist again

[–]Sandflapjacknotable jew liam nessun -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im no surprised, at times hes an annoying mank.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllPolygon Is Not A Very Popular Site And My Blog Is Quite Popular 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

Okay, let's examine innocent until proven guilty.

Person X accuses person Y of having committed a crime, person Y accuses X of having made that up. Who's innocent until proven guilty? Both of course.

If you support innocent until proven guilty in a social context, there is only one possible position: the paradox of the accuser telling the truth and the accused also saying the truth. Because the accuser is innocent of lying until proven guilty of lying.

[–]grinch_eux 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can't you stay neutral on the matter, without assuming either one lies and not judging? Because imho, innocence until proven guilty is or should be to remain neutral.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllPolygon Is Not A Very Popular Site And My Blog Is Quite Popular 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

You totally can, but I prefer to assume that there is a person Z that committed the crime. The possible outcomes are then that Z is the same person as Y, that Z is a separate person, or that Z doesn't actually exist.

I feel like that's generally the best option for me to be able to emphasize with each side. Of course there's cases where I do assume differently, but that's my general approach to all criminal issues and I'll still treat the other side neutral. I fully account for all possible outcomes: just because the accused isn't guilty, doesn't mean there was no crime. Misidentification is actually not all that uncommon in cases that rely on identifying a suspect from a line-up. So it's a possibility I want to directly include in my approach.

Of course it's not at all common for rape (where the victims are very likely to have known the perpetrator before,) but it still allows me to be supportive of the victim without fully condemning the accused. It's kind of a paradox, sure, but one I can handle and more importantly, one that allows me to deal with the grand majority of outcomes: acquittal due to lack of evidence. I'll still believe the victim, unless they are found to be lying by a court.

I'm not a judge, my goal is not to be fair to both sides. My goal is to be able to be support each side if necessary. I can't be neutral, but I can abstain from judging the other side unfairly.

[–]hailhydrofoil -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

If Person X makes a claim Person X has the burden to prove their claim. If person X doesn't provide evidence for their claim, Person Y can use the fact that they didn't prove their claim as evidence that they are lying.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllPolygon Is Not A Very Popular Site And My Blog Is Quite Popular 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

If Person X makes a claim Person X has the burden to prove their claim.

Nope. We're talking criminal proceedings, the state has the burden to prove the claim. Person X is just a witness, if even.

[–]hailhydrofoil -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

the Burden of proof isn't just a legal concept. It can used in any context, where facts are disputed.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllPolygon Is Not A Very Popular Site And My Blog Is Quite Popular 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really, burden of proof only carries weight in scientific discourse and courtrooms. It's never gotten a student out of trouble, it's never won an election, and it's never resolved an internet argument.

Burden of proof doesn't resolve arguments, it resolves disputes of truth based on fact. And the only two fields that try to make statements of fact are law and science. Even news deals in information instead. It doesn't matter whether that information is true, what matters is that you haven't been informed of it yet.

[–]rarebittQPU Misaligned, Can't get back to the prime PU 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I so wish he hadn't said that the Sam Pepper allegations were "Gray Rape".