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Dealing with weapons and multiple attackers. (self.martialarts)

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[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (24子コメント)

If you are able to go up against somebody who is armed or superior numbers and you are unarmed and you get out of it unscathed it is not because of your training it is because the guy you fought is a God damn moron(s) or you ambushed the shit out of him/her.

Ah, the voice of inexperience speaks.

Or that person/people were never intending on hurting you anyways.

Hrmmm. I say "You can always ask people who've done it." and there are many people on here who've had the experience you say is impossible, yet, you don't ask.

So, just so I have this clear.

If people train to deal with weapons while they're unarmed, if people train to deal with superior numbers while unarmed, and then they do so successfully in real life using the training they've been taught, that's all due to the fact that the people they were facing were morons, they ambushed them, or their opponents were never intending on hurting them anyways.

Hrmmm.

A curious point of view, and one that does not seem to correlate at all in any way with my personal experience, or the experiences of many others that have posted similar stories on both this reddit, and other similar ones.

Of course, you may fall back on "Yes but, they weren't particularly skilled! So that makes them morons! Try that on a fully trained Samurai with a Katana!"

In which case, sure. Great example.

[–]RandaethyrMMA 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

He has a point. As someone who has fought (and trained in a slightly realistic way i.e. three opponents aggressively trying to take my head off for ten 2 minute rounds) more than one person at a time, a lot of the time it is due to the timidity of one or more of the other people that stops you from getting clobbered.

Violence of action can really give you an advantage, but against multiple committed attackers it doesn't matter if you're the real life version of Frank Dux's delusional self image, you're more likely than not to catch a beat down.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (14子コメント)

He sort of has a point, but mainly has no clue whatsoever.

Problem there is, you're training in sports combat. So it sounds like you were dealing with evasion and survival training, which while useful, doesn't quite solve the problem.

If you're fighting multiple people, you need to put them down, or at least give them some 'discouragement' which sports combat isn't always so great at.

a lot of the time it is due to the timidity of one or more of the other people that stops you from getting clobbered.

If the person hasn't been trained to deal with multiple people or doesn't have an understanding of maneuvering, I totally agree.

Violence of action can really give you an advantage, but against multiple committed attackers it doesn't matter if you're the real life version of Frank Dux's delusional self image, you're more likely than not to catch a beat down.

If they're very, very, very, very, very good or you're not trained in dealing with it, definitely.

Of course, if someone was the real life version of Frank Dux's self image, or presentation, they'd actually smash them horribly and laff.

Because....that happens in real life. Generally speaking not with people who've only trained in sports combat, but it happens.

Still not sure why sports combat types find this so impossibru, plenty of examples of it on youtube.

[–]Enthused_Llama[🍰] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Problem there is, you're training in sports combat. So it sounds like you were dealing with evasion and survival training, which while useful, doesn't quite solve the problem.

Look, dude, is it impossible to defend against multiple people? No. Even if they have weapons? No. However, even if the skill disparity is great, your chances for success are low and if the consequence for failure is death, is it not better to run?

[–]RandaethyrMMA 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

you're training in sports combat.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of this is. Are you implying that foot work, range, timing, tempo, ring generalship etc. all go out the window as soon you find yourself on "the street"?

Generally speaking not with people who've only trained in sports combat

Still not sure why sports combat types find this so impossibru

To be clear, I've had to engage more than one person outside of a "sports combat" scenario i.e. real life. So that informs my perspective on top of training, which was not "sports combat" but against other soldiers (I am a US Army veteran) who were aggressively attacking me. And at the time I had more hand to hand training and experience than them. Edit: I "won" this training by not getting KO'd for the cumulative 20 minutes (10 back to back 2 minute rounds with fresh guys rotating in), but it's not anywhere near as easy as you make it seem. And the majority of the time that I didn't just get clobbered was because one or two guys were too timid to step in and exchange, but when more than one guy was committed all I could do was cover up, defend, and attempt to use foot work and ring generalship (another way to describe this is situational awareness of your surroundings) to get away.

It's just more likely than not that you will get your ass kicked (hopefully that's as far as it goes) when you have two or three even relatively untrained people who are committed to the attack.

edit2: I do not want you to construe this as me saying you shouldn't fight back even if you're running a likely risk of getting tyrannosaurus rekt.

[–]Enthused_Llama[🍰] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not exactly sure what the point of this is. Are you implying that foot work, range, timing, tempo, ring generalship etc. all go out the window as soon you find yourself on "the street"?

Everyone knows sport kicks and punches no longer work in t3h str33t bruh.

[–]TheSolarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not exactly sure what the point of this is. Are you implying that foot work, range, timing, tempo, ring generalship etc. all go out the window as soon you find yourself on "the street"?

They definitely don't, but sports combat can get people used to the idea that a street fight is like a sparring match, when it really isn't. Two minutes is a lifetime in reality. The idea is, either get the fuck out of there, or break one of them as soon as you can. By break, I do indeed mean break. Arm, leg, nose, jaw, pelvis, whatever you can get your hands on and break.

Edit: I "won" this training by not getting KO'd for the cumulative 20 minutes (10 back to back 2 minute rounds with fresh guys rotating in), but it's not anywhere near as easy as you make it seem.

I've never said at any point that it was easy, ho, ho, ho. Oh my no. Just possible. Again, while you did well in that scenario, I somehow doubt you were ripping any of their jaws out of their socket, breaking legs or arms, or doing anything super serious. Much respect you endured, but the thing is....you weren't trying to put them out of commission, just endure the attempted clobbering.

And the majority of the time that I didn't just get clobbered was because one or two guys were too timid to step in and exchange, but when more than one guy was committed all I could do was cover up, defend, and attempt to use foot work and ring generalship (another way to describe this is situational awareness of your surroundings) to get away.

That's all good stuff...but you weren't trying to take them out. A lot of people think that fighting more than one is about getting away, which is sort of valid, or you could fuck them up.

It's just more likely than not that you will get your ass kicked (hopefully that's as far as it goes) when you have two or three even relatively untrained people who are committed to the attack.

If a trained fighter gets beaten by two relatively untrained people, either they were ambushed, which is tricky, or they need to reconsider their training.

Here's a shitty example, but it has it's merits. How do you fight multiple people?

Take them out. Put them down. Don't let them rush you into a corner. Move. Let them run into each other. Don't let them both or more grab you at once if you can avoid it. If they do grab you, say thanks and break something.

Here's an example of a guy who's two for two. Two hits, two down. Yes, it's not exactly a fight, but the point is, if you know how to hit, and you hit cleanly....you usually don't need more than one unless you're fighting an absolute beast.

https://youtu.be/CsJdJyicTRA

[–]RandaethyrMMA 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

you weren't trying to put them out of commission, just endure the attempted clobbering.

I should clarify that it was within the scenario for me to KO them if I was able, and I did KO more than one (just not all three in a single round).

My point was that even with the ability to put them "out" by literally KOing them or otherwise making them not want to continue, I was still being attacked by multiple committed attackers who made up for their lack of training with being aggressive and committed (more often than not).

https://youtu.be/CsJdJyicTRA

Did you watch that?

It's very clear that not a single person in that situation were committed to a fight. He pushed on guy down and then KOd a guy who went into Spectator mode before running away.

So what you're talking about is a situation where you have already committed to violence and the assailants haven't. I don't think this was the example you meant it to be.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

KO with gloves, isn't the same as KO without gloves.

I did, and my point was, that you can take someone out with one hit.

He headbutted the first guy, not pushed him down. That guy was done.

No, what I was pointing out....is that you actually can take people out quicker than they imagine possible.

[–]WhenInRoam0 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

He sort of has a point, but mainly has no clue whatsoever.

From /u/cynicalcanine0

I grew up in Stockton. I've actually seen people get stabbed, shot, and gotten jumped by multiple people. By people who actually wanted to hurt that person.

None of the bullshit that I have seen practice was demonstrated as a knife disarm , a gun disarm or techniques against a group would have worked here in Stockton.

You would be on the ground shitting out of the new all that just got carved in your stomach.

Doesn't sound clueless to me.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

He has a clue when it comes to people who weren't trained to deal with it, not dealing with it.

Not quite the same thing.

[–]WhenInRoam0 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unlike you, some of us live in reality, no some 80s ninja movie.

[–]TheSolarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Unlike you, some of us have actually done it in real life, and don't tend to roam around....derping.

Plenty of other people on here with similar stories, and again, far more hardcore ones than mine.

[–]WhenInRoam0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like how you automatically assume I don't have any experience in the matter. This is why I having a discussion with you is a waste of goddamn time.

/u/cynicalcanine0 is a boy from Stockton one of the most violent cities in the US. You say he is clueless.

/u/randaethyr is a US Army vet and has described his training but you immediately jump on the sport combat excuse to write off people's experiences.

Me, you say, I have no experience? If these two people seem like they have no real experience to you then of you would think I would have no experience. I grew up in Long Beach before I enlisted in the military I had already been stabbed twice.

Of course this doesn't count as experience to you because I am not some ninja trained at some secret ninja camp to fight off drunken broskis who probably didn't want to fight in the first place. You believe that you can just rip off someone's jaw.

I like how people who have experiences that validate your position are the ones you think have any worth but those with experiences invalidating your position don't seem to count.

As I said before, you are full of shit.

[–]MarkEMark81Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

plenty of examples of it on youtube.

There are way more examples of people getting beat down where no amount of training in the world would have saved them.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are way more examples of people getting beat down where no amount of training in the world would have saved them.

Haven't seen many. There's a surprising amount of training in the world.

[–]MarkEMark81Jiu Jitsu/Muay Thai 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's a compilation WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised (Graphic content). There's way more. Why don't you just look on youtube?

[–]CynicalCanine0 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

If people train to deal with weapons while they're unarmed, if people train to deal with superior numbers while unarmed, and then they do so successfully in real life using the training they've been taught, that's all due to the fact that the people they were facing were morons, they ambushed them, or their opponents were never intending on hurting them anyways.

Yes. Because only a moron or bunch of morons would lose for not playing to their advantage.

Or, you ambushed them. Which is a legit tactic. Or, they never meant to hurt you in the first place. They were probably just threatening with their Superior numbers or weapons but with no intention on actually harming you.

A curious point of view, and one that does not seem to correlate at all in any way with my personal experience,

About your experience..... What is the name of that damn gym?

[–]RandaethyrMMA 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

They were probably just threatening with their Superior numbers or weapons but with no intention on actually harming you.

Does this really seem so far fetched of an idea?

Violence takes a significant psychological commitment, and some (many) people can't just turn it on and look at someone like a walking meat bag ready to be tenderized.

Even combat arms soldiers (and non combat arms soldiers) in a firefight have historically been found to deliberately not fire at the enemy.

[–]TheSolarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes. Because only a moron or bunch of morons would lose for not playing to their advantage.

So what you're saying is, again, that skill is impossible to acquire. Gosh. That's certainly an....interesting point of view you have there.

Just to clarify, whenever someone beats multiple attackers, or deals with a weapon, in your worldview, that's just because the people were morons.

Hrmmmm.

A very lucky string of coincidences then, for all those who have taught unarmed against armed, and one against more than one, that their practicioners were only ever attacked by morons I guess.

About your experience..... What is the name of that damn gym?

What are you looking for?

[–]CynicalCanine0 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

So what you're saying is, again, that skill is impossible to acquire. Gosh. That's certainly an....interesting point of view you have there.

Just to clarify, whenever someone beats multiple attackers, or deals with a weapon, in your worldview, that's just because the people were morons.

Yes. I stand by it and nobody has demonstrated any reason for me not to.

So while you probably beat up a bunch of douches in a group trying to intimidate you or some jackass with his $2 ice pick who never probably intended to hurt you in the first place. You say that is your anecdotal evidence. Let me tell you about my anecdotal evidence.

I grew up in Stockton. I've actually seen people get stabbed, shot, and gotten jumped by multiple people. By people who actually wanted to hurt that person.

None of the bullshit that I have seen practice was demonstrated as a knife disarm , a gun disarm or techniques against a group would have worked here in Stockton.

You would be on the ground shitting out of the new hole that just got carved in your stomach.

A very lucky string of coincidences then, for all those who have taught unarmed against armed, and one against more than one, that their practicioners were only ever attacked by morons I guess.

Yes that does seem like a very lucky string of coincidences. All these people claiming that they train to fight real life situations against weapons and mods are some help going out and getting into fights with people with weapons or in mobs and somehow totally decimating them but they are the only Witness. A lucky string of coincidences indeed.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes. I stand by it and nobody has demonstrated any reason for me not to.

Er...have you ever looked?

None of the bullshit that I have seen practice was demonstrated as a knife disarm , a gun disarm or techniques against a group would have worked here in Stockton.

So...you think Stockton is the only place in the world where violence of that level happens?

You think that no one talking about their real life experience in this area....has ever experienced any of that?

Hunh.

As you like.

Most definitely there is a big difference between a drunken bar brawl and someone setting out specifically to kill you.

As a rule though, don't forget that I do advocate if that it's three or more, Run Fu is probably best, and that if it's anyone at all with a weapon, be very careful and if it's three or more with weapons, either get one yourself, or run very fast indeed.

[–]CynicalCanine0 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes. I stand by it and nobody has demonstrated any reason for me not to.

Er...have you ever looked?

Yeah, what is the name of that club again.

You think that no one talking about their real life experience in this area....has ever experienced any of that?

Oh I know people have experienced it. As I mentioned I've seen people get shot , stabbed and jumped. They fought hard, they fought valiantly and they ended up in the hospital and sometimes the morgue.

You ever take a class on tactical gun fighting? You want to know something they teach you in tactical gun fighting? How to patch up your gunshot wounds.

[–]TheSolarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are you looking for?