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[Post-Matchday Thread] Tottenham Hotspur v Manchester United (self.reddevils)

tocitusMemphis が 投稿 - stickied post

This is post-matchday, not post-match. For measured opinion and different retrospection.

Premier League Gameweek 33

FT: Tottenham Hotspur 3 - 0 Manchester United

Goals:

Alli 70'

Alderweireld 74'

Lamela 76'

Stats

Stat Spurs Man Utd
Possession 47% 53%
Shots 16 5
On Target 8 1
Corners 2 7
Offsides 3 3
Fouls 10 10
Passing % 71% 72%

MOTM - Dele Alli

Match Thread

Post-Match Thread

BBC Report

Highlights/Full Match Online

Highlights/Full Match Download

Next Match: West Ham (A) FA Cup Quarter Final 19:00 BST Wednesday 13th April

Next League Match: Aston Villa (H) Gameweek 34 15:00 BST Saturday 16th April

Possible Talking Points

  • Substitutions/Tactics. What do you think about LVG's work in this game? What did he get wrong? What could have gone better?

  • Defending - The Collapse. What happened there?

  • What do you want out of the rest of the season now?

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]DublinguistSmalling 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's interesting how the big narrative coming out of this game is "players out of position". A friend who doesn't follow us closely pointed out to me yesterday that this is usually the last thing you hear before a sacking, a sign that a huge majority of fans have turned on a manager.

This was a major stick pool fans used on Rogers, while Klopp could put firminho in goal and they'd think nothing of it. Even with Jose at chelsea this time there was a ton of focus on Ivanovic and azpiliqueta positioning.

I'm not saying it's causational of course, but interesting how these things take on patterns, a kind of breaking point with even casual fans.

[–]redblue_blur 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

When you're winning then there's a method to the madness. When losing, it's just madness.

[–]MetalGearPorkBunBlind 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a really interesting point actually, there definitely could be something to it. Maybe it's down to a combination of A) Under-pressure managers becoming more desperate and trying something off the wall in the hopes it'll somehow work and B) More in the opposite direction, players played out of position for long periods tend to become disgruntled and disillusioned which usually signals the end for a manager. I'd imagine lots of players' morale goes way down when they're being slated week in week out and they aren't even being played in their correct position

[–]FeezbullGiggs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not saying it's causational of course, but interesting how these things take on patterns, a kind of breaking point with even casual fans.

because the casual fan knows too little about tactical setups or how/why things collapse and players out of position is the easiest way to slate a manager and jump on the "manager out" train while trying to sound relevant enough.

Casual fans use stats at times like they're the be all and end all.

Casual fans also pick on one poor game etc and slate a player like that's par for the season at times.

It's following a pattern because that's when casual fans voice their views and actually sound like they know something but if "out of position" is their only cause to criticise, then that means very little, if anything at all because even trying to delve deeper into that conversation will see them out of their element already.

[–]tocitusMemphis[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

  • LVG's substitutions & general tactics are, once again, a large talking point after playing multiple players out of position (including Young up front for the first time) which led to an incredibly impotent attacking display. 1 shot on target due to Martial's moment of brilliance (although he should have scored after doing the hard part of getting there) but other than that we had nil threat. Lingard, Mata and Young did literally nothing during the game offensively (although Mata did very well tracking back a lot in the first half due to Fosu-Mensah's...exuberance.)

  • Personally I thought we defended well for a large portion of the game - until that collapse around 70 minutes I thought it was going to be a tight 0-0 or 1-0 to either side finish. Unfortunately it'd seem a large share of that defending was down to Fosu-Mensah which is both a positive and a negative. The idea that our defence collapses without an 18 year old (although what an 18 year old!) terrifies me

  • I found the criticism of Darmian incredibly over the top. Sure the goals came from that side of the pitch but none of them could directly be put onto just his shoulders (as opposed to say Smalling/Blind's fuck-up which left the entire pitch open behind them for the first goal, or Rojo ignoring his man completely and letting Alderweireld have a free header for the second goal) but the idea that because all 3 goals come from his side, he is automatically to blame is ludicrous. Use a link I supplied above to watch the game (about 68 mins onwards) and watch the few minutes leading up to the goal and then tell me if you seriously want to pin it all on Darmian?

  • Which brings me onto my next thought. Rojo. I've held back on this because this subreddit loves him but I cannot, for the life of me, see what he brings to the table. Other than the match against City earlier this season when he negated De Bruyne, for me he has done nothing. He doesn't have pace, can't cross the ball, seems to be out of position a lot, seems to give away free-kicks a lot and doesn't look comfortable on the ball. I don't get it but do feel free to tell me I'm wrong :)

  • 6 games left for us now in the league - 5th place looks the most likely (provided we don't throw it away to West Ham) which is obviously not good enough but provided we finish above Liverpool (now that their fans have decided they have the best squad in the league because they've won a few games) I'll take it at this point of the season.

[–]the_fartinatorMartial 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rojo really needs to improve. There were a few times in the first half he didn't even stay in position and mark his man well enough. Which led to those shots on target.

[–]CveinMemphis & Martial 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

You guys know how bad The Sun are, yeah?

They rated Rojo our best man on the pitch with Carrick.

7: Rojo, Carrick

6: De Gea, Fosu-Mensah, Blind, Schneiderlin, Mata, Lingard, Martial, Rashford

5: Smalling

I just found that hilarious.

[–]tocitusMemphis[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That is pretty funny. Also the idea that anyone should have been higher than Fosu-Mensah is hilarious by itself.

[–]TheJoshider10De Gea 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd say De Gea was the closest after that and he fucking conceded 3 goals. Still, he kept damage control.

[–]IDespot90Martial 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They put Fosu-Mensah on same rating as Rashford,Lingard,Mata good joke, cant believe people are payed for that :)

[–]dirtmens1Kagawa 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fosu-Mensah was at least a 15

[–]Lost_And_NotFoundJones -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It just always really angers me that in ratings out of 10 players are always rated from 5-8. What's the point in all the rest of the ratings? 5 should be considered the average so most of our players deserved below 5 for Sunday.

[–]Bangar24Herrera 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

The one positive thing to me in this game was Fosu-Mensah. He was everywhere on the pitch, created a few good chances and runs, was solid in defense and tracking back and prevented a couple of dangerous chances from Tottenham. The fact that everything went downhill after he got injured says a lot about him and the state of the team during that game which is quite horrible. I hope his injury isn't too serious as I'd love to see him get more playing time. The sky is the limit for him.

Also, adding to what /u/tocitus said, I am one of the people who would usually defend Rojo as I thought he was very good in the first season when he wasn't injured. This season, however (and I know he's been injured or quite some time) I find it difficult to defend him sometimes. The two major issues I have with him are his crossing and shot-making which have been terrible this season.

[–]dsbm223Daley Handsome Blind 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Same views on Rojo. I think he had fairly decent first season. Not the most exciting of players but he rarely put a foot wrong in his first season. I don't know what has happened to him lately.
Maybe that was to do with him playing as a Center Back last season and as a left back now? As I posted the other day, I won't be surprised if Mou comes and ships him off.

[–]CveinMemphis & Martial 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any updates on TFMs injury? I really want to see him play more games. He played amazingly against Everton and managed to follow it up.

[–]BUfels 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I almost always give the manager the benefit of the doubt when it comes to team selection and player positions. He sees the players train and talks with them, so I always felt it unfair to give LVG the stick he gets for some of his seemingly odd choices of player positions in the past. Fergie did the same on many occasions.

However, his choice of player positioning and team selection this match was farcical. I don't care what he saw in training, Juan Mata essentially playing right wing back is a joke. And he gave some small reasoning for Ashley Young up front, but it was flimsy at best, and it almost feels as if he's trying too hard to be contrarian and clever.

That's why this loss felt so bad. It felt avoidable, had our players just been playing in their proper positions. The game was fairly even until the goal, one would assume with lingard and mata in their actual positions, we would have had a much higher chance of winning.

[–]flowtschi 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

7 Corners and not even one of them was close to being dangerous. Our Setpieces this Season are horrendous.

[–]tocitusMemphis[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

From the lucky-dip we seem to run to decide who takes our corners (against Spurs Blind, Mata and Schneiderlin were the lucky names out of the hat I believe) to the fact that most of them are played short, before sometimes being pumped into the box, our corners confuse me.

We hardly ever score off corners anymore too

[–]Lost_And_NotFoundJones 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel we had a pretty decent run of corners when Blind first started taking them but not much since.

[–]dsbm223Daley Handsome Blind 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not just taking set pieces but we are conceding so many goals from set pieces as well. Something is horribly wrong in that department.

[–]Old_man_TraffordRashford 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

checks news LVG still manager, goes back to bed.

[–]j4ckh3artGiggs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dogshit. Still

[–]YoungPappy 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think Rashford is anything special. He had an amazing first 2 games and then went on to score 1 in 8 games.

[–]Rolling_TomassiShaw 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right but have you paid attention to his game outside his goals? He's very good at taking players on and is very confident on the ball. The only thing I'd say is his timing of when to pass/cross/shoot isn't quite there. He often takes a touch too many but that's just a case of poor decision making that can improve.

He's been clever and creative in build up play and draws players away with him to create space. He's 18 so I don't expect him to be starting most matches or anything, but I think he has a lot of potential.