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Proposal : discourage users from suicide goading and similar (self.metanarchism)

ravencrowed が 投稿

Phrases like kill yourself, or telling people ways in which to kill themselves, are just plain toxic and I'm surprised that this community seemingly doesn't have any agreed upon principles regarding this. It does nothing for debate and is counter productive, not to mention dangerous.

So what are the options? please support or oppose based on the following, or add your own suggestion:

A. Instant ban. (moderators post transparency thread in meta with exact quote highlighted. The ban may be overturned if users feel it was misinterpreted)

B. Warn; second time is a Ban. In the case of a moderator making the statement, they would be demodded which equals a warn.

B2: 2 warns then ban (second warn for mods is demodding)

C. Oppose motion.

D. Other

全 84 件のコメント
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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]AutumnLeavesCascade [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Have struggled with ideation, truly sick of online suicide goading. B or B2 I would get behind. Really, the main issue is that even if you're goading some despicable asshole, third parties reading the language still get affected. Every time people with any empathy read "why don't you just ____", our minds often automatically start putting ourselves in the "you" position as we initially read it. An anarchist activist in the Northwest killed himself a few days ago, let's not pretend radicals aren't struggling with this shit.

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Really, the main issue is that even if you're goading some despicable asshole, third parties reading the language still get affected.

Not sure why more people don't understand this.

[–]FreddyBananas [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree, tbh, but the mods really need to crack down on the despicable assholes as well. That would likely solve the problem to begin with.

[–]Orafuzz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2

[–]Striker115 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2

[–]Potss [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2.

[–]FuckYeahKropotkin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2

[–]thecoleslaw [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2

[–]rulbam [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2

[–]Astagirl [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B2.

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Not eligible to vote but I Just want to say that as a disabled person who's struggled with suicidal ideation before, this is the number one reason that this sub is not effective as an anti oppression space. Seriously it is incredibly triggering to read this sub on a day to day basis right now. This sub can never be a safe space for people with mental issues or disabilities while harassment and suicide wishing are considered part of the day to day discourse.

Fuck everyone who claims to be anti oppression while supporting this shit. I don't give a shit about all the people who claim to support suicide wishing despite having been suicidal themselves. There are plenty of POC who claim that they don't mind people using racial slurs but that doesn't magically make it any less oppressive and frankly most disabled people who disagree with the hivemind are probably afraid to speak out out of fear of getting harassed into silence.

I agree that it can be an effective way of fighting reactionaries and there are some members of this sub that I would support violence or harassment against since they're oppressive authoritarian shitstains but I generally refrain from doing shit like this out of respect for the large silent minority of disabled people who are constantly under attack here.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Agree entirely. The attitude in this sub towards this issue fucked up and repulsive. Like I said elsewhere if this can't be agreed upon I don't see any point in participating here anymore. I generally like the content on this sub (@ not meta obviously) but this issue is a deal breaker. I consider /r/Anarchism, if this isn't taken care of, to be on par with subs that allow TERFs, brocialists, and other forms of selective "radicals."

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's shocking just how many comments on this thread wouldn't be out of place in /r/kotakuinaction.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The reasoning used is so damn similar too. It's fucking pathetic.

[–]SpaceHeeder 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

Support modified B. Not even moderators should have to operate on a 1-strike policy. Warn before demod, demod before ban. If that means adding a second and final warning for regular users then so be it.

EDIT: Support B2.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, this is good. One warn before any action. OP should edit this in.

[–]ravencrowed[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why wouldn't mods be treated the same as everyone else?

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think people should get a warning before ANY action is taken on this. If a mod gets in the habit of suicide goading then they won't last long either way.

[–]SpaceHeeder -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree this is reprehensible behavior but I think it's a separate class of problem from things that we treat on a one-strike basis such as AOP violations. I therefore oppose option A outright. The only thing that was left for me was option B, but that puts moderator status on a one-strike basis. Pass rule B as-written, and watch people with an axe to grind start pulling receipts and seeing circles-in-circles until either large numbers of moderators have been purged or people have gotten sick of your rule and vote to overturn it. Probably the latter.

[–]ravencrowed[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Well, I can see your point but the

people with an axe to grind start pulling receipts and seeing circles-in-circles

seems to be a symptom of the AOP in general, and to everyone not just moderators. Would you support a policy that made one warn before action the standard for the existing AOP too?

[–]SpaceHeeder [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No, that would take away the discretion of moderators to pre-emptively ban reactionaries and trolls. In a subreddit with as much activity as /r/anarchism, some things need to have a bright line drawn on them to stop the subreddit from being overrun with bad actors. If you don't think that existing violations of the AOP are a separate class of problem from suicidal ideation then we'll have to agree to disagree. The AOP touches on things that directly relate to the mission of /r/anarchism -- being a place of, by, and for anarchists. There's wide agreement in the community that part of what that means is creating some berth for discussions about violence, up to and including violent intent on the part of contributors. Creating a rule pertaining to civility, which is what we're really doing here, is a fundamentally different kind of rule than has ever come out of the AOP and has nothing to do with anarchism in any unique sense.

[–]ravencrowed[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What makes bigots so much worse than people who tell others to kill themselves?

There's wide agreement in the community that part of what that means is creating some berth for discussions about violence, up to and including violent intent on the part of contributors.

Woah, whose wide agreement are you talking about? Certainly not all anarchists believe that telling others to kill themselves is a valid contribution to any discussion.

that would take away the discretion of moderators to pre-emptively ban reactionaries and trolls

Moderators are not supposed to ban people outright. bans are meant to be submitted as proposals to meta.

I'm just confused about your stance here. On the one hand you're saying that people who say bigoted things (or if we think about this critically, are interpreted as saying bigoted things) deserve no warning and should be banned to keep away Bad actors.

But then you say that people who tell us others to kill themselves should be given plenty of warnings.

Something isn't adding up here.

[–]SpaceHeeder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What makes bigots so much worse than people who tell others to kill themselves?

One has nearly uniform agreement on inclusion in the definition of oppression. The other is contentious enough to the point that denying that it is at least debatable is disingenuous.

Certainly not all anarchists believe that telling others to kill themselves is a valid contribution to any discussion.

That's why I support this, with appropriate checks in place to prevent it from being over-used or abused.

Moderators are not supposed to ban people outright. bans are meant to be submitted as proposals to meta.

Even since before transparency ban threads required the same consensus as ban proposal threads, this has neither been the way things worked nor the way things ought to have worked.

On the one hand you're saying that people who say bigoted things (or if we think about this critically, are interpreted as saying bigoted things) deserve no warning and should be banned to keep away Bad actors.

If you disagree with this you are more or less throwing your lot in with min.

But then you say that people who tell us others to kill themselves should be given plenty of warnings.

Two is hardly 'plenty.' Three strikes is a common enough trope that I hereby decree it to be fair. Disagree if you must, but the discussion will end at you voicing such. It's not a position I feel the need to justify.

Something isn't adding up here.

You're insisting on a false equivalence between something that isn't against the rules yet and things that have been against the rules since before either one of us were regular posters here.

[–]limitexperience -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially since it's their tactic to catch people on a bad day

[–]ItLiesInTheProles [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

B

[–]CordialCalamity 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Support B.

*Honestly, if the people here can't agree on this than r/@ probably isn't a community worth participating in.

**Would prefer B but if the vote goes the way of B2 I'll support that too.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

B (EDIT: B2) sounds good to me since we give people a bit of leeway for other shitty things too, but only a little.

We really need to end the epidemic of detailed calls to commit suicide in this community.

[–]Light_Cavalry 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Support B. EDIT: B2

[–]TotesMessenger 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]ravencrowed[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Moderators could you please sticky this in the main sub. This is a conversation that needs visibility and much more voices.

[–]FancyTea [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Support B.

[–]_Dances_With_Trolls_ -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

D. other

let's all taste oblivion together

[–]limitexperience -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

How about we stop allowing fascists and drama trolls on the sub before me make this rule

EDIT: Also pretty much everybody who has suffered from mental illness and suicidal ideation before, myself included, are sick of concern trolls pretending they give a fuck about mental health issues.

[–]CordialCalamity 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

Bullshit. Don't pretend you speak for all of us. I have diagnosed MDD and GAD and have been in therapy and on SSRI's for several years, and at my lowest and most suicidal point, someone saying shit like Rad said could've easily pushed me over the edge. The fact that this is even controversial, especially if you have been through what you claim, is fucking disgusting.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm in good mental health (thank goodness) so the stuff aimed at me isn't personally harmful, although sometimes it can be really grating. However, I know that other people reading this shit who aren't as lucky to be in as good a place mental health-wise as me can be upset by it. I flat out don't understand how a group of people who can spend hours detailing every possible rule of "oppression" that is ban-worthy strongly disagree on this hugely obvious one. Can you imagine if we had this debate about whether or not misgendering someone was a big deal or if we should let it slide?

[–]punkswcleankitchens -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your personal reaction to something is poor justification for censpring it

[–]CordialCalamity 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

It has nothing to do with my "personal reaction," I'm not describing my personal reaction but a general possible reaction from anyone who found them self in a similar space to the one that I found myself in some time ago. And fucking "censoring"? Really? You sound just like the fucking freeze peach trolls you love to complain about. It's seriously against the spirit of the AOP allow shit like this and make this an unsafe place for people with a history of poor mental health.

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I don't think that r/anarchism should censor shocking or offensive content for the sake of people who don't want to be shocked or offended. There's a difference between oppressive and offensive.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Fuck off with this bullshit. Creating an unsafe space for people with mental health problems is oppressive as fuck. Your reasoning belongs in some shithole like /r/TiA not here.

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yea we should probably get on with destroying all art and literature depicting suicide, it's dangerous!

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're disgusting. Keeping people from telling others to kill themselves has nothing to do with art or literature you fucking reactionary. Fuck your concern trolling.

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's political correctness gone mad!!!!!

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Also pretty much everybody who has suffered from mental illness and suicidal ideation before, myself included, are sick of concern trolls pretending they give a fuck about mental health issues.

Fuck off. You don't speak for anyone but yourself.

[–]punkswcleankitchens -2ポイント-1ポイント  (19子コメント)

C

[–]Prince_Kropotkin 6ポイント7ポイント  (18子コメント)

Serious question: what is the difference (w.r.t hurting people) between a policy of not misgendering someone and a policy of not telling people to commit suicide in graphic ways, and why should this community have one but not the other?

[–]punkswcleankitchens -1ポイント0ポイント  (17子コメント)

It comes down to the difference between oppressive and offensive. Misgendering is oppressive because it denies the target her agency to self-identify and reinforces the sex/gender system. Telling someone to kill himself is just stupid.

Suicide is probably a good idea anyways, considering the drudgery of life, but that's a conversation for another time.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Telling someone to kill himself is just stupid.

Sure, if the target is someone like me. What if the target is someone who is depressed and on the edge? Is an exhortation to commit suicide (graphically) not oppressive, as it is an attack on those with mental illness and manipulates someone into doing something they might not want to do?

Furthermore, since we're all (or almost all) anonymous here, and we don't a priori know who is in a good place and who isn't, shouldn't it be a policy to just ban it altogether so that the above situation can't happen?

Suicide is probably a good idea anyways, considering the drudgery of life, but that's a conversation for another time.

Probably anywhere but this thread, ya.

[–]anarchothrowaway355 [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

It comes down to the difference between oppressive and offensive.

Says someone who's never dealt with any serious mental issues ever.

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

Please tell my psychiatrist that, he wont believe me

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

/r/AsABlackMan

Fuck off

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Now this is just pathetic. You have to believe so badly that you speak for disabled people everywhere, that you accuse me of lying about it when I have a dissenting opinion. Why don't you fuck off homie? I'm good.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

No you don't just have a "dissenting opinion" you're explicitly supportive of oppressive behavior and you're using supposed standing as a member of the group being targeted to give your oppressive stance credibility. Whether you actually are suffering from mental health problems or not (though I'm skeptical) is irrelevant because even if you do you're throwing other people who deal with that under the bus. So seriously, quit your bullshit.

[–]FreddyBananas [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

ur not being very cordial

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

you're using supposed standing as a member of the group being targeted

lmao oh really? That's funny because I didn't even bring it up until I was accused of being neurotypical, and I did nothing more than say it wasn't true, which it isn't. I guess I should have just lied about my medical history to give your shoddy argument a hand up. Also, I don't care if you're skeptical of me being mentally ill. Nobody assigned you to official diagnostician of r/metanarchism, especially since your view of who is Certified Mentally Ill apparently doesn't include anyone who disagrees with you.

Now can you please stop trying to assasinate my character with this horribly abused social justice discourse? It's pathetically underhanded.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You're assassinating your own character and clearly don't anyone else's help with that. Honestly I have nothing left to say other than you should run along back to your reactionary friends like Ben Carson, and Yiannopoulos.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I don't think it's cool to try to speak for everyone with mental health problems. Or for anyone to try, for that matter. I think the evidence is pretty clear that some people find it extremely damaging, which is good enough for me.

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

And how am I doing that at all? /u/anarchothrowaway355 said I "never dealt with any serious mental issues ever" and all I said was that that wasn't true. Apparently you, a neurotypical, get to speak on behalf of all the hypothetical didabled people, but me just having my opinion and being a disabled person is "speaking for everyone".

lol prince, next time you come at me bring something better than this, I know you can do better

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone.

Look, you said "Telling someone to kill himself is just stupid." as opposed to oppressive, and there are a lot of people in this very thread who claim to have mental health issues AND find that shit oppressive. There's obviously no consensus here, just like there's no consensus among minorities whether or not a given slur is a big deal or whatever. I mean, there's black Republicans in existence who tolerate the extreme and open racism of many of their fellow members.

You are obviously entitled to describe your own feelings about the matter but you're in effect saying that everyone in your situation should feel the way you do, despite all the people here disagreeing with you. That's why I think we should have a rule about it.

[–]punkswcleankitchens [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

you're in effect saying that everyone in your situation should feel the way you do

You are entirerly imagining that. Please, show me where I made any statement even implying that. Actually it's my opponents who are implying a consensus among disabled people, saying that if I disagree with them I must not really be disabled.

Apparently me just so much as saying that I'm disabled, after being accused of not being disabled, nothing more and nothing less, makes me the one who's speaking for everyone? This is some weapons grade projecton from an angry, dogmatic mob.

So what should I have done, sweet prince? Should I have just lied and said "yes you're right, I've never experienced mental illness!" Would that be an approproate lie to suit your narrative?

I didn't realize that my childhood spent being probed, confined and drugged by child psychiatrists was something I would have to actively deny unless I had the proper opinion.

Fucking drag me, I'm loving it

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You just said "Telling someone to kill himself is just stupid." and voted to not change the rules. What else could I possibly take from that? If you meant it only personally but recognized that other people could be harmed, why wouldn't you vote for A or B? You should re-read your first comment up there and see how it sounds because what I took from it is "This isn't oppressive for anyone".

I'm not saying anything about your personal experience or mental health whatsoever, don't drag me into that. I take you at your word about that and didn't question it.

[–]polymerwitch [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

D

I keep thinking that maybe this isn't that big of an issue, but you keeping shining a spotlight on the marginalized users at their wits end with being harassed. We should be looking at the whole context of the situation, but going through the subreddit log almost every time this comes up it seems like a concerted effort to tone police. I don't want to see that institutionalized and drive users off.

[–]CordialCalamity [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Fuck you

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

adventures in tone policing:

saying "idiot" or "dumb": literally a crime against humanity, transgressor should be banned from the Internet and thrown into a gulag

telling people that might have severe depression to kill themselves: 100% acceptable discourse, anyone who disagrees should quit Reddit

[–]Light_Cavalry [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So it's okay for 'marginalized users' (read: a literal mod of this sub) to tell people to kill themselves?

[–]polymerwitch [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

http://i.imgur.com/oXzibfZ.gifv

[–]Light_Cavalry [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, I thought this was supposed to be a safe space for marginalized people.

I personally don't need it to be one way or the other but if it is supposed to be one this kind of behavior is not okay.

[–]FuckYeahKropotkin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

what on earth. Telling people to kill themselves is oppressive. Shutting shit behavior like that down is not "tone policing," it's following the AOP this sub has agreed upon for fucks sake. like should we also allow NBPP members to be homophobes and anti-semites since they are part of a marginalized minority?

also, telling people who raise concerns about oppressive behavior to leave is pretty much the textbook reactionary response. No doubt you'll brush me aside here as a 'concern troll', but just think personally a bit about the awful position youre taking

[–]Prince_Kropotkin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

All the people screaming about drama trolls and Nazis taking over the sub seem to be the exact same people who are dead set on keeping their privilege of making threats and calls to commit suicide...

[–]who_is_tanmaya [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

B2, although I just got the banhammer from r/anarchism for being a "redpiller" with no real evidence presented to me and a dubious claim that I "deleted my comments."

Something fishy is going on here, methinks.