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Why Tim and Joseph left THAC

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  • Why Tim and Joseph left THAC

    A few of you may have noticed a bit of silence around here the past few days, which I apologize for. There's a reason for that though. If you're not intimidated by this wall of text, I encourage you to read on.

    A few days ago, I called Tim and Joseph. It was the first time I had spoken to them in about 5 months. The main reason I did was to apologize for what ultimately lead to their departing THAC, and to begin repairing a friendship that I foolishly mixed with business too much.


    Before I get into this long story, I want to quickly mention that both Joseph and Tim have read it in its entirety, and have personally approved of its accuracy.

    Alright. Let’s start wayyy back. When Joseph, Tim, and I formed THAC LLC as a legitimate company, legally speaking, I was the sole owner. This was originally meant to be temporary. The company had to be formed quickly because we were in the process of getting the Marble Hornets DVDs back from Kirill Baru, and wanted to be as legitimate as possible when we began to sell them ourselves. Forming an actual company that would sell the DVDs, as well as other merchandise, was the best way to do this.

    After some negotiating, we got the DVDs. I set up the original storefront (which wasn’t very good), and we set out on our new and exciting business venture. Things were going pretty alright.

    During this time, the fact that I was the sole owner was brought up on several occasions. We all agreed that we should look into getting them on the books, and that we needed to research how to do that and get it done. But for some reason or another, we’d forget to do it. This will be very important a bit later.
    After a while of doing pretty well for ourselves (finishing Marble Hornets, having a hugely successful Kickstarter, launching the Season 3 DVDs), we started talking about possibly getting another person on board to help us make more content. It was shortly after that that we began speaking to Noah. Originally, we only wanted him to help us create Dogdog since he had an animation background. But after meeting a few times, and pitching different ideas, we decided to make him a full time member of THAC. Again, things were going pretty alright.

    However, a bit after Noah had been hired, a sense of tension between all of us began to grow, for a multitude of reasons. Unsurprisingly, a lot of it had to do with money. I was starting to feel like I was underpaid for having to spend so much time editing things we shot. Tim and Joseph, on the other hand, were uncomfortable with the amount of power that I had still being the sole owner of the company.
    Viewcounts for THAC and Marble Hornets soon began to drop. This made our paychecks begin to
    shrink as well. Things got more stressful for all of us as we tried to figure out what we may be doing wrong. We had to rebalance our shares of profits to better be able to live off the money equally. This led to me having to take a pay cut, which didn’t help my feeling underpaid at all. I ended up agreeing to it though because I didn’t want to seem greedy.


    But the tension was still there. After a few months, Joseph and Tim had expressed numerous times that they didn’t want Noah to work with us anymore. They believed very strongly that he did not mesh with what we wanted THAC to be. I saw where they were coming from, and thought it was a reasonable thing to consider, but that we hadn’t given him a fair chance.

    A few weeks pass, and the tension exploded. We had just gotten back from a convention, and Joseph and Tim brought up again that we seriously consider letting Noah go.

    During the con we had just gotten back from, I had hung out with Noah and developed a stronger friendship with him. Because of that, I didn’t want to entertain the idea of getting rid of him anymore, but the way we had agreed to tackle problems like this was together, and majority rules. I would be outnumbered if they wanted to put it to a vote.

    I felt that letting Noah go was a mistake. This ended up confusing Joseph and Tim, since I had previously seemed open to the idea. So to keep him around, I employed a questionable tactic. I said “hypothetically” that if it came down to it and Tim and Joseph wouldn’t budge on the matter, I’m the owner of the company and I ultimately have the last say on things. As you might imagine, Joseph and Tim weren’t too thrilled about this.
    Ultimately, after Joseph and I had a heated argued about it, we cooled off and explained it away as “tone not working through text” (we were chatting via skype at the time) and moved on. However, that was the beginning of the end for Joseph and Tim, as it and shook their faith in the company in a way that wouldn’t be able to be repaired.

    As the viewcount and payments began to drop even more, things were starting to look grim. My wife, daughter, and I were in the process of moving from Alabama to Georgia in order to be closer to family. This is when I found out the downside to being the sole owner of the company. Maybe it was Karma for how I had used that power previously.

    We were looking at apartments and had applied to quite a few, sure that we’d get one of them. Unfortunately, one by one, they all called me and told me that I didn’t meet the requirement for income. Because I was self employed, the accepted proof of income for all the apartments was my tax return (in lieu of a pay stub). When you’re the sole owner of a company, you file your taxes in the same forms as your personal income. Because of this, to make a long story short, my taxes showed that I made negative money over the course of a year, which caused my wife and I to be rejected by every apartment we applied for. Despite still being able to afford it, it couldn’t be proven on paper.

    I was getting desperate. My wife and I had no choice but to sleep on couches at her sister’s house because we had to move out of our apartment in Alabama already. We continued to apply to apartments, all the while THAC was making less and less. I wasn’t able to look for part time employment at the time because I wasn’t sure where we would end up living. Things were no longer going alright.

    After about a month, my wife and I finally found a place that would accept us as tenants. It was then that I realized that I would not be able to afford all of the deposit, as it was quite a bit higher due to the proof of income issue.

    Up until this point, I had never once used company money on anything besides paying Joseph, Tim, and Noah, as well as small equipment purchases that we would agree on beforehand. Now, I felt like there would be no other chance to get a place to live, and I didn’t want our infant daughter not having a true home anymore, so I made the decision to use the business debit card to pay the deposit and treat it as a loan, with the full intention of paying it back as soon as I was back on my feet. I didn’t tell Joseph, Tim, or Noah about it before I did it because the offer was very short notice. I should have.
    THAC was no longer making a livable amount of money for any of us.There was no money left over at the end of the month for me to pay back my company for the loan I had given myself out of desperation.

    Shortly after, at one of the rare times all four of us were in the same room, Joseph told us all that he wanted to step back creatively from THAC in order to take on other, behind the scenes duties. One of these duties was overseeing the bank account. As soon as we all agreed we were fine with him taking on these things, I immediately came clean about what I had to do with the company money. Thankfully, Joseph, Tim, and Noah were understanding and all came to the same conclusion that as long as it didn’t happen again, and it was paid back, they were okay.

    [continued in next post]

  • #2
    I finally had a place to live, and started looking for a part time job to make ends meet and to pay back the money. Throughout all of this, we were still working on THAC and getting Clear Lakes 44 started with mixed results. Clear Lakes suffered the most because there was a fairly large number of creative differences between all of us on what the followup to Marble Hornets should be. These differences kept going even by the time Joseph and Tim left. We were never fully on board as a whole, which caused the beginning of CL44 to be a stumble instead of the big bang that we wanted.
    I started to get very depressed. Things were falling apart, my friendships were strained, and we were getting paid very small amounts for a substantial amount of work.

    Now for when things got really bad. At this point we had all taken a pay cut, of which mine was the largest. Joseph suggested it as an “equal pay for equal work” deal in order to get the company finances in check, which made sense. The problem was that I still didn’t feel like we were doing an equal amount of work. On the other side, Tim didn’t feel like he was being given enough.

    I had briefly spoken to Joseph about feeling underpaid for all of the editing I was doing, and that if I was to pay back what I had spent, I’d need to renegotiate my share. By my reasoning, if I was putting in the most time but getting paid the same, then my time must be worth a lot less. This did not make me feel good at all. I was getting very frustrated and angry, and ended up taking it out on my friends.

    I decided that I was going to rework our shares on my own. “It’s MY company after all” I told myself. I spent a few nights running numbers and trying to figure out how to rebalance things for what felt like the hundredth time. I decided that the fairest way to do it was for us to be paid for what we did every time that we did it. So for example, all of us show up to shoot a THAC short, we all get paid a flat amount for that. It made sense to me, but I ended up making another big mistake with it.

    I didn’t want a shouting match to erupt between us when I brought it forward, so I decided that I wouldn’t tell any of the others about what I wanted others to be paid. So if Joseph asked me what I was offering Tim, I wouldn’t tell him, and so on. I figured they were free to share the amounts with each other after I told them, but that left out one key person. Myself.

    The exact amounts don’t matter, but for the important sake of transparency, I did have it to where I was paid the most by about 15%. I had not paid back the loan yet, so wanted to use that extra amount to start doing so.

    The first person I brought it up to was Joseph. Unsurprisingly, he was not happy with the fact that I was keeping my compensation under wraps. He told me that he wouldn’t budge on this until I made what I was being paid public to everyone in THAC. I didn’t want to do that and so told Joseph I wouldn’t budge on it either.

    Strangely, this made me feel kind of good. I was finally putting my foot down on what I felt I deserved and not budging on it at all. In retrospect, this is probably what most people would call a power trip. Tim told me he was leaving shortly after.

    I got paranoid. I had not heard from Joseph since Tim told me he was leaving the company. What if they were plotting something behind my back? I realized that they both had company cards. What if they were going to go to the bank to empty out all the money and then vanish? What if they changed the password to the THAC store out of spite? What if they deleted all of our videos? I quickly went in and changed the passwords that we shared. Youtube, the store, patreon, everything.

    Of course neither of them ended up doing any of these things I imagined. At the time, Joseph was in charge of many important behind the scenes things, like shipping out store orders, keeping an eye of finances, and contacting potential conventions (I didn’t think this was very much work at the time, but have since changed my mind after having to do it myself). So when he tried to check in on the store do that, only to find that his password no longer worked, he asked me what the hell was going on.

    I told him that I had changed the passwords for everything in case he and Tim try “some kind of scorched earth thing”, but that I’d change the store back for when he needed to ship things out. Joseph said he was leaving THAC as well shortly thereafter.

    Afterwards, Joseph and Tim made their public statement about their departure, and I made mine. By the time I spoke about it on the THAC podcast, I had cooled down quite a bit, and wished them well as sincerely as I could.

    I have since paid back the loan I gave myself by paying the total amount of it split between Joseph, Tim, and Noah equally.

    During my recent phone call with Joseph and Tim, I told them about everything that led up to these events on my end, and offered a full apology for everything that happened that was caused by me.

    Comment


    • #3
      PS: I'll be checking this thread regularly to answer any further questions you guys might have <3

      Comment


      • #4
        So, how did the call go exactly?
        It's 2016 now

        Comment


        • #5
          I could say and ask a I lot but I won't instead I'll keep mine short and sweet.

          Thank you for tell us this and being so honest. You didn't need to but glad you did. <3
          I also hope that you some how fix your friendship with Joseph and Tim. I don't care if they never rejoin THAC again (be nice but being realistic sorry :/), I just hate to think after all you've been through and done together that you're friendship is gone.
          Welcome to the THAC Forum, Where comedy and horror combine And the threads always run off course,

          Apparently I'm going to kill everyone and in league with satan....
          umI'mbrian: JennyCreativity the only disease I know of that's not cured by more cowbell is ebola...Thanks for killing us all.
          static_shadow: JennyCreativity confirmed for antagonist. Reason in league with Satan...er Bon Jovi.

          Libarian of CL44: All reletive threads/links/info archived in "index-major-thread-discussion-list"

          Comment


          • #6
            While I don't have any questions, thank you (and the rest of the boys) for writing this. Since the departure, there has definitely been a tension in the air around THAC that has sort of choked my enjoyment of it. This is a ridiculously honest post, way more information than I ever expected to get, and I feel a lot better for having read it. Business + friendship is always messy, and I'm glad you all are trying to amend some things.

            PS "outdoor boy interesting new episod" is awesome.

            Comment


            • #7
              Wow. The criticism you have been getting from former fans must definitely not be helping. I hope that you, Joseph, and Tim completely rekindle your friendship. You are the ones who started this whole thing and it just doesn't seem right if you all hate each other. I'm also glad that you finally came out and said what you were feeling. Hopefully this will give closure to the hundreds of fans who were upset by this.

              Comment


              • #8
                Through all of that time, were you four working on THAC as your sole job, or did you guys have side-jobs that augmented your individual incomes?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for being honest, Troy. I'm glad that you're coming clean with your mistakes and are prepared to learn and move on from them. It's an act of maturity few people are willing to take. Good luck with your future plans.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Radioactive Pineapple View Post
                    So, how did the call go exactly?
                    It was a long call and I'm not going to divulge all the details but the sumnary is that I accepted the apology but still told him he's an asshole and I'm still angry about it. That being said, I have known troy for 17 years and I don't want to get 17 more down the road and not have given our friendship a second chance.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you for share this with us.

                      I hope you and the guys can be friends again

                      What's done is done and all you can do is move on.
                      Last edited by the_watcher; 21 hours ago.
                      I don't know what to think anymore, maybe things will get better, maybe things will look brighter
                      Maybe, maybe, maybe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I know that people have said it before, but thank you for being so honest with us, Troy . ^^ I know it's been really hard for you now, and I'm sorry that you went through all that. I hope things go better for you in the future, and I hope you get on better terms with Joseph and Tim soon.

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                        • #13
                          ((Also aaaaahhh, Joseph you're here I haven't seen you in forever oh my god!!! It's so nice to see you on here again!))

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                          • #14
                            I think I speak for a majority for the community when I ask where does THAC go from here. I've no doubt you will continue producing content, but from the sounds of it things will never go back to the way they were.
                            If your schedule needs to change to accommodate your financial situation then so be it.
                            Since Joseph is in the building as well, I'd like to hear about his plans on the future or final thoughts on what happened, given he's willing to do so.
                            It was a very sad turn of events, and I've seen this happen to many groups of friends who start companies together.

                            I think you fucked up Troy, but you have come clean and you owe it to yourself to learn from this.

                            please stand by, proper sig coming soon.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks for coming out with all of this. It puts to rest a lot of speculations and explains a lot.

                              Can we know how Tim reacted or no?

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