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Language?That fucking fox (imgur.com)

Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed が 投稿

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[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 7ポイント8ポイント  (53子コメント)

Yay! Slurs in fanart for a movie about acceptance.

EDIT: This is the last community I'd expect to take issue with standing up to derogatory language. We watched the same movie, right?

[–]Nick__WildeIt's called a hustle, sweetheart 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

https://i.imgur.com/NABn0cz.png

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm afraid I don't understand

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

We did watch the same movie. Remember at the end when Nick and Judy both used "derogatory" terms like cute and sly against each other in a joking manner and were both fine with it? Context and message is more important than individual words.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Nick never calls Judy "cute" again after she tells him not to, as far as I can remember. "Sly" is never established as derogatory in the same way "cute" was.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd have to double check on the cute thing, but while sly was never blatantly stated as derogatory it's clear it's related to harmful stereotypes about foxes being untrustworthy but cunning. Judy calling Nick articulate in the beginning was clearly derogatory without needing to be spelled out as such.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

And Judy calling Nick articulate in the beginning isn't portrayed positively. Further, there's a difference between using these types of words within closed circles that have established rules and guidelines (even if unwritten and unspoken) about their use -- a separate issue from the one at hand -- and using these words in mixed company where it's incredibly likely that there will be people deeply uncomfortable with their use.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you admit "derogatory" words can be fine in the right situations (like in closed social circles as you stated) then clearly context is the ultimate decider in whether something is derogatory or not, not the word itself. Therefore, whether or not this usage of "faggot" is derogatory is debatable based on context, which in this case is utterly devoid of any references to homosexuals or their stereotypes. Ergo, it cannot be saying anything good or bad about gays.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You're twisting my point. What I'm saying is that in circles that have established boundaries about things like this, it is fine. This is not a closed circle with established boundaries. This is a public forum. In a public forum, it can be expected that there will be people for whom these types of words are deeply problematic and create a hostile environment.

Further, as I've stated again and again, the f-slur is inherently connected to homosexuality. Its very presence is a reference to stereotypes about homosexuality. It itself inherent says something bad about gay people.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Faggot" is only "inherently" connected to homosexuality because there are those who believe it is. The connection didn't even exist hundreds of years ago. You are creating its harmful power, only you can cut the word off from its source of power.

"Faggot" is like any other word, its definition comes from context. "Can you SET the table?" means something entirely different from "You wanna play one more SET?". Slang especially can mean a variety of things in different context.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look, we're talking past each other. We are repeating the same points again and again with slight variations. It is clear at this point that neither of us will convince the others. For the sake of both of our sanity, let's agree to drop it. Agreed?

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 4ポイント5ポイント  (26子コメント)

Am gay. Love it. I approve this comic. Words only have the power you give them.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 10ポイント11ポイント  (17子コメント)

Look at its usage in this comic. It's not positive. This is not a reclamation, this simply makes it more okay for people to use a slur that continues to harm our community. The f-slur continues to be derogatory. Using it to refer to more things negatively doesn't remove its association with gay men, it uses its association with gay men to cast other things in a negative light.

[–]ShapelessCloudsCarrot Master race 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with you completely. A redone version without it would be nice, but none the less this is still funny if you ignore that word.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree. It's a fine comic otherwise, but we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

[–]ShapelessCloudsCarrot Master race 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah especially accounting the theme of the movie. Can't act like it's acceptable to do this type of thing.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Well considering literally nothing in the comic was even remotely related to being gay outside of "faggot" I'd say it's a reclamation in changing it from a word used to insult homosexuals to just a general use insult. Bogo isn't insulting Nick for any perceived gay qualities, it's for being smug and making a face. Only people making a connection to its use as an insult against gays are those unwilling to move beyond the past.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

You have to consider why the word is insulting. This is no different than using "gay" to mean "bad", then saying that because you didn't mean "homosexual" that the usage doesn't promote a negative association for gay people.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

And you have to consider context. The usage can't promote a association to gays and/or gay behavior if neither are even in the comic.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

It can and does because there is not a single person in this thread ignorant of what the f-slur means. The comic doesn't have to say "this is about gay people" for it to perpetuate the association.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Just because there is an association doesn't mean the comic itself is perpetuating the association. Again, the comic in no way associates "faggot" with gays, much less if they're good or bad. The only people reinforcing the association are those complaining about the past association.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

It is impossible to not associate the f-slur with gay people. That is like saying that a comic that uses the n-slur as an insult without referring directly to race doesn't associate it with black people.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well certainly not with that attitude. You're giving up on reclaiming "faggot" before even trying. What would have happened if Judy decided it was impossible to not associate bunnies as harmless? Word associations were made to be broken as language evolved. As I'm sure you're well aware, "faggot" used to mean something completely different. It's not a stretch to imagine it can change again.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Am gay. Hate it. I wish this comic didn't use it. That idea of words only having the power you give them is ridiculous. Words have the power society gives them.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Last I checked we were both part of society. To quote your avatar, "change starts with us". Don't want "faggot" to be harmful to gays? Don't let it.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

To quote the same line from my avatar, "change starts with us". There are still people who are deeply uncomfortable with the f-slur, and the community should recognize this and avoid it. Telling people not to be offended is not the solution, avoiding creating a hostile environment for minorities is.

[–]Draycos559This is my thinking face 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

If someone is uncomfortable with something that people are not universally uncomfortable with, it's their job to avoid it, not society's job to remove it. Plenty of people have seizures if exposed to flashing lights, but we still have movies and video games. And epileptics can't change their condition, you can. I know because faggot used to bother me as well. Then I realized that letting a couple soundwaves or letters ruin my day was stupid, especially when they aren't even being used to insult someone based on their sexuality.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's no reason for this community to use the f-slur and many reasons why it shouldn't. There are plenty of insults that carry much less baggage for people that could be used instead. It's insensitive, disrespectful, and downright insulting to ignore the fact that this word is something incredibly hurtful to so many people still. Congratulations on making yourself numb to it, but you can't demand other people do the same. You can, however, not use the word and it becomes a non-issue.

[–]Bbarrington42One hot dancer 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Seems like the world forgot the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I'm also gay and don't mind this comic.

[–]Hustle_101Call me fox. I hustle gifs. 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hell yeah man, I have spent plenty of time being called all kinds of nasty shit.

At the end of the day, yeah maybe words have bugged me a bit, but I shake it off because jerks saying mean things to me actually has no impact upon me or the way I see myself.

Because they're jerks.

Also am I the only one who thinks the word "faggot" just sounds really funny? I think it works quite well in comedy, tbh.

[–]Bbarrington42One hot dancer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly!

And yeah, it's one of those words that just seems to fit into comedy gags easily. I think it's the way it can be accented to make it sound differently for each use. If you exaggerate a letter or two you can flex it to fit into multiple scenarios. Gritty, annoyed, comedic, stereo-typically flamboyant, etc.

I have like, three words that I love saying, "faggot" is one, because I like taking away it's impact, "cunt" is another (I say it a lot, no idea why. I just like the way it rolls off my tongue lol) and "bitch." Last one takes too long to explain, but there's a reason. Lol.

[–]Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

This movie wasn't much about acceptance as it was breaking down and analyzing the mechanics behind racism and labels and explains how they can naturally form from childhood and parents, to how they can be instigated by outside sources to divide people, plus the movie needs to show the topic it's talking about such as slurs otherwise it has nothing to work off of, it's like making a fire safety video without the mentioning of fire

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Fine, I'll grant that the examination of slurs is important in the context of this movie. How does this comic do that? It uncritically uses the f-slur as an insult for comedy.

[–]Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

Do you have a moment to listen to our comedian and savior George Carlin?

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This article is a good response to Carlin's bit

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ah yes, I'll take the words of this straight man who's never had to deal with having slurs yelled at him that I should just toughen up.

Regardless, his point about context doesn't help you. Look at the context of how it's being used in the comic. It's being used as an insult. It's being used as an insult because of its association with homosexuality. There is no way to spin this usage to be positive or non-derogatory.

[–]Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ah yes, I'll take the words of this straight man who's never had to deal with having slurs yelled at him

How the hell does that remove any credibility to his point? It doesn't matter what his past experience was or if he understood how people targeted by labels felt, what matters is his point that a word alone is entirely neutral and the people behind the word give it power, just like a firearm is either protective or life threatening depending on what hand it's on and where it's aiming at, This comic did not have the intention of degrading any majority/minority because the context of the word as an insult depends on who it's aimed at, in this case it's directed to Nick from which from the sources of the directors and canon material, his sexuality is entirely neutral meaning he belongs to neither party, plus the origins of faggot are not just a slur for homosexuality, in the UK it means either meatballs, cigarettes, and or bundle of sticks, the US version of faggot is entirely slang and depends on what party is using it, just because it's being used as an insult doesn't mean it's not any of the 3 aforementioned objects, any of those 3 objects can be insults just take a look at asshole,prick, and cunt, they are all simple nouns just charged with negativity, but my point is that a word like faggot only means it's base origin meanings until it's confirmed to be a used as a slur, in this case since Nick is not homosexual(from what is canon) the insult could easily mean something else entirely

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Look at the use of the word in the comic. It's clearly used as a negative trait about Nick. Where does this negative connotation come from? I can tell you it's not meatballs or bundles of sticks. It's from its association with homosexuality. While this isn't to say that Nick is gay, the fact that the word is being used as an insult shows that the root of the insult is in homosexuality. This use of the f-slur serves only to associate homosexuality and negativity. It has no further purpose.

And the way it removes credibility from his point is the same reason why a white person cannot say that black people shouldn't be offended by the n-slur. A straight person cannot reclaim a slur used by straight people against gay people. A straight person cannot tell a gay person that he shouldn't be offended by the word.

[–]Bbarrington42One hot dancer 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seems like the world forgot the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Words are just words. Ignore them, or embrace them. Either takes away their power.

I'm gay and embraced ALL the slurs long ago, now no one can hurt me with them.

[–]Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well I think I'm going to concede from this argument but the last thing I wanted to clear up about is that George was not saying people should not be offended by these words but that their power comes from context the person using the word the words themselves are completely harmless

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The idea that words are completely harmless is, frankly, stupid. Words have tremendous social power which is very real.

[–]Sh0nglezIt won't just be your dreams getting crushed[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Words are harmless just like a gun with no owner or user, it's the person behind it that is giving it power

[–]Shades101 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not sure if giving context will help, and it certainly still doesn't make it acceptable, by the comic is based off another older post on Reddit. I think someone posted a link to it elsewhere in the comments.

[–]nota999Writer: The Campaign 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm aware that it's referencing an older post, but that doesn't make it okay. We as a society move on from derogatory and discriminatory portrayals of groups, even if they have roots in older parts of our culture. It's the reason why no serious theater companies are trying to bring back minstrel shows, despite being a huge part of the history of American popular entertainment.