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Beamdog statement on Siege of Dragonspear (forums.beamdog.com)

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[–]Sporeggar 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

When I saw the character in question I knew people would flip out over it. I think the character was just really badly implemented/dialogue dumb. They didn't even give your character a chance for edgy dialogue option, I think.

Also if you try to attack her, she just poofs away. Wew.

Other than small things like this, I think the general writing has been decent to good. Though admittedly, I've been basking in nostalgia from the old VA cast, so I still have to digest it all when I've finished. Getting close now.

[–]tlneondo 42ポイント43ポイント  (26子コメント)

Its never been about transgender characters or how you shouldn't have _____ represented.

Its ALWAYS been about shit writing, then when they get called out on it they act like the shit writing is at all justified because they threw in ______ minority.

[–]YoungZer0 25ポイント26ポイント  (26子コメント)

I'm glad to hear that they are adding more depth to the character, instead of just deleting him/her. The writer, even though a bad one, should be given the chance to redeem herself.

I think it was on twitter where the writer wrote that she intentionally builds in as many "diverse" characters as possible in her stories. Given the fact that this is not her property, I'd argue that this is the mark of a bad writer.

You're working with someones material here, be more respectful. Be smarter as well. Far as I know in the D&D universe there are potions that allow you to change sex. So why would someone complain about being born into the wrong body, when they are one gulp away from being what they want to be?

It doesn't make much sense.

[–]flybypost 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it was on twitter where the writer wrote that she intentionally builds in as many "diverse" characters as possible in her stories. Given the fact that this is not her property, I'd argue that this is the mark of a bad writer.
You're working with someones material here, be more respectful.

How about Ed Greenwood's comment on that (creator of the Forgotten Realms where the game takes place):

https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?pnref=story

So why would someone complain about being born into the wrong body, when they are one gulp away from being what they want to be?

Because not everybody has access to magic potions? Just because something is available to some doesn't mean it's available to all.

[–]YoungZer0 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because not everybody has access to magic potions? Just because something is available to some doesn't mean it's available to all.

I think you accidentally wrote a more interesting story than the writer could come up with.

[–]flybypost 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you accidentally wrote a more interesting story than the writer could come up with.

Well I don't know what their constraints are. There could be many reasons why that could not work for them in that situation.

I haven't bought the new Baldur's Gate (don't want to get into the old mechanics and still have to work through bits of PoE) but from what I have read this dialogue is two or three questions deep in the companion/NPC dialogue and not something the character just blurts out.

Radiant Historia (for example) was supposed to be a story about about a sentient sword through the ages and how its decision affect the world (or something like that) but they changed it (the got convinced that it's hard to sympathize with a inanimate object) to a different story with time travel and other mechanics. The game is still great but I would have loved the original but they didn't have the budget for that story (or willingness for the offbeat set up or whatever). You often don't get the best or most interesting version of things in games for a multitude of reasons.

In this case the writer is interested in adding some other perspectives to the characters and it wasn't excellent dialogue for whatever reason (time constraints, other stuff needs to be done) but overall it seems like the dialogue tree unfolds like does in these types of games but somehow this one bit was outrage worthy.

[–]_MadHatter 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I haven't played Siege of Dragonspear but I wonder if the problem actually lies in the bad writing or just kneejerk reaction from the community.

[–]King_Of_Bel 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

The writing is pretty substandard. But it's also just a really bad expansion disregarding that, buggy as hell and such. They also started deleting reviews and pulled a Kirk Cameron by asking people on the forum to post positive reviews to neutralize the backlash. The first few spoiled it in many people's eyes, and the last part was trying to use water to dowse a grease fire.

[–]YoungZer0 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

pulled a Kirk Cameron by asking people on the forum to post positive reviews to neutralize the backlash.

I'm pretty sure Steam has a rule specifically for that.

[–]laijka 5ポイント6ポイント  (25子コメント)

What was the line?

[–]SegataSanshiro 18ポイント19ポイント  (13子コメント)

"Really it's all about ethics in heroic adventuring."

[–]War_Dyn27 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ooo that's a groaner. :D

[–]punikun 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm out of the loop, why is this a problem ?

[–]WackySkeletons 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

Imagine if when the FF7 remake comes out they add a new line of dialog to Barret where he jokes "It's about ethics in Mako Energy" or some other ham fisted reference to GG.

[–]Kyoraki 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's Japanese. If anything they'll poke fun at the other side of the fence, like having one of the girls in the Honeybee Inn playing a beach volleyball game, or a joke about Cid and breast implants.

[–]el_chupacupcake -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Considering how terribly written FF7 was in general and how insultingly bad Barrett's dialog was in particular, I'm going to say it would be a marked improvement over the hamfisted Ebonics they gave the character originally.

Maybe it could replace:

Don't go thinkin' you so bad jes 'cus you was in SOLDIER

Or

Y'all Shinra're the VERMIN, killing the planet! And that makes you King VERMIN! So Shu'up jackass!

addendum: It's a great game, but it's got some terrible writing.

[–]lorywindrunner 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

To be fair a lot of that is probably just the terrible localization.

[–]el_chupacupcake 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The specifics of the dialog might have been up to a local team, but the character design, his arc, his role in the plot (such as it was), and more came pre-baked.

The game was a ton of fun, did plenty of things right, and it was incredibly important for the trajectory of gaming in general... but the only well-written parts of FF7 were the music.

[–]signormu 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

FF7 was originally written in Japanese, you know. This is a localization problem, not a writing one.

[–]el_chupacupcake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are so many other problems with Barrett and the story besides its translation into English. His dialog is just the easiest part to cite.

Barrett's arc, his utility within the story, and his design all come pre-baked. And frankly, he's not the only poorly written character in that game (Cloud is a bad protagonist, Sephiroth's motivations as an antagonist are beyond convoluted, don't even get me started on Tifa).

FF7 was revolutionary for its playtime, the fact that we could use "what disc are you on" as a way to avoid spoilers was accidental genius, its incredible music is rightfully legendary, its world design and so much more were brilliant. No matter the flaws it might have, FF7 is still a seminal game and I'm not here to detract from that.

But it's writing was terrible, through and through. That doesn't make it a bad game, but it being a good game doesn't automatically mean all parts of it were good. We just think more highly of it because we didn't have much to judge it against at the time... besides the better written, less flashy FF6.

Edit: And besides which, it doesn't matter what caused the dialog. OP asked how'd we like the line in english, it's clearly not worse than other lines from the english version.

[–]jojotmagnifficent 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

It's not really about the line though, just what it represents. The writer for the game explicitly stated they were essentially writing characters and dialog as pretty in game clickbait. They were more interested in intentionally pissing off people than actually writing a good script. She also showed a complete lack of familiarity with existing characters and straight up insulted the characters (and by extension the previous games writers). Beamdog further perpetuated the drama by banning people for complaining about it, throwing about insults and anyone who didn't like it and all the other crap.

Why Beemdog hired a bad writer who proudly proclaims she is happy to fuck the script for the sake of pushing her toxic agenda in the first place is beyond me (probably some messed up SJW clique nepotism, it seems the common cause of this kind of thing), but when called on it they simply doubled down on the retardation. The stupidest thing about all this is that it IS about ethics, which is what the line is supposed to be making fun of (because of course #GG is purely about hating women, everyone knows that /s). The poor ethics of this situation is what everyone is mad about (but of course they tried to spin it as everyone being angry because they are transphobic and misogynists etc.).

The fact that the game was hijacked by some muppet to use as a platform for ragebaiting in the name of their agenda is what people are angry about. There is no way this ever should have happened. The fact Beamdog knowingly ALLOWED it is frankly unfathomable.

[–]basterfeldt 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Admittedly I haven't played this Baulders Gate game, but what is the difference between this throwaway line and the stuff that Running With Scissors included in that DLC they released for Postal 2? No one got upset with the anti-"SJW" stuff that was included, no one stated it was unfathomable that they would release stuff to "use as a platform for ragebaiting in the name of their agenda".

Forgive me if I've misunderstood anything here. And I don't think an argument a long the lines of "Well, Postal's Postal" is valid.

[–]OrkfaellerX 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

I've played neither of the games so far, but it might have to do with Baldurs Gate being a cRPG classic ( praised for its writing ) and set in a medieval universe; while Postal 2 is ... Postal 2.

If I play a fantasy RPG ( and I do; a lot ) then I wanna get immersed; I don't wanna hear unfunny internet memes from 2014.

[–]basterfeldt 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Comparing the two is a different argument all together, we're talking about the act of using a video game/product to "use as a platform for rage baiting in the name of their agenda". From what I've read, the bit everyone is getting upset with in Baldur's Gate is fairly throwaway, small, and in keeping with the general milieu of the thing. Postal does that too in the ways in which it addresses Double Fine and Gamergate. Why is one alright, and the other not?

[–]JewWithGardenBeans 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Postal 2 is a comedic game. The expansion they released keeps the satirical tone of the original game, which also poked fun at outrage culture (like the anti-game protesters in front of the in-game RWS studios). It was never meant to be taken seriously.

Baldur's Gate is... pretty much the opposite. The dialogue in question makes no sense in the context of the game's universe. (Not to mention that it wouldn't in the real world either - trans people usually don't start a conversation with "hey, I'm trans")

[–]AstronautsArcade 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

(Not to mention that it wouldn't in the real world either - trans people usually don't start a conversation with "hey, I'm trans")

Are you purposefully misrepresenting the conversation or haven't looked at it yourself and are just believing what people are telling you?

You don't walk up to the npc and their first line of dialogue is "Hey, i'm trans" You have to ask about their name and they explain that they named themselves and go into their backstory (very typical of npcs in a rpg). You have to make the effort to learn more about the character by choosing that option they don't start the conversation with that, your character asks them a question.

Please if you are going to argue a point refrain from misrepresenting the material. Really lowers the credibility of your argument.

[–]JewWithGardenBeans 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you purposefully misrepresenting the conversation or haven't looked at it yourself and are just believing what people are telling you?

The latter. My bad, I was told that the character tells you they're trans literally in their second line of dialog, which would seem really out of place. I liked the Baldur's Gate games, so I was kind of disappointed by the reports of bad writing.

The rest of my comment still stands.

[–]AstronautsArcade 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The dialogue in question makes no sense in the context of the game's universe

Are you refering to the joke or the trans comments.

Because Ed Greenwood (creator of the world the game is based off) says trans characters make complete sense for the universe.

and for the joke/reference/whatever you want to call it. Games have fourth wall breaking lines of dialogue/references all the time.

Spoilers: The ghostbusters 2 reference in skyrim doesn't fit the universe at all.

[–]JewWithGardenBeans 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you refering to the joke or the trans comments.

The joke.

Because Ed Greenwood (creator of the world the game is based off) says trans characters make complete sense for the universe.

I completely agree. I was just talking about unrealistic dialogue.

It's not that I really care - I didn't really expect an expansion that's basically fan fiction to be any good in the first place.
The main point I was making in my first comment was just to explain why something like this is expected from Postal 2, but people who were looking forward to this expansion were pissed off.

The ghostbusters 2 reference in skyrim doesn't fit the universe at all.

Are you talking about this quote: "Death is but a door, time is but a window. I'll be back." ?
That quote still works even if you haven't seen Ghostbusters 2.

[–]jojotmagnifficent -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

but what is the difference between this throwaway line and

It's not a throwaway line, it's the writers entire motivation for the script according to her. That line just embodies this.

the stuff that Running With Scissors included in that DLC they released for Postal 2?

I'm not particularly familiar with Postal 2 but I don't really need to be for it to be obvious what the difference is. Postal 2 was ALWAYS a game about poking fun at people complaining about violence and sex in video games. If you're that kind of person I'm going to think your silly and overly sensitive, but I'm not going to be surprised or upset that you are unhappy with it. But it's also not like you miss out on anything by simply ignoring it's existence, you were never going to paly it anyway if that was the case and you never had any investment in the series.

BG on the other hand was NEVER about any of this stuff, it has no place taking ANY side in the discussion. There are countless people who hold BG very dear, it was a big part of many peoples childhoods and it means a lot to them, so to have it co-opted is a kick in the balls for all those people. Even if someone on my side of the discussion did this I would be pissed. Either way it's not what the game is about, it shouldn't be about it and the quality of the game suffers as a result of it. If someone wants to make a standalone ragebait game then fine, I don't give a fuck, I'll just ignore it (like I have everything else).

It's like if Steven Universe (or whatever the SJW's are creaming their panties over now) got a new Writer and he used it as a platform to push MRA talking points. I would think that's retarded and that the writer should be sacked (after a hilarious bout of schadenfreude of course).

[–]basterfeldt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You make some very good points about Postal 2, you're right, it's always been about poking fun at everyone who the developer thinks of as being wrongly offended/anyone that takes themselves too seriously.

This isn't even an argument I'm particularly interested in, I'm just so sick of internet vitriol. I bow out of the discussion because comment arguments get nobody anywhere, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. We'll all be a lot better off when the Us vs Them mentality is let go and people can stop attempting to brand each other as "SJW" or "GG".

[–]OccupyGravelpit 8ポイント9ポイント  (23子コメント)

Perfectly sensible response. There's an ocean of difference between playful references to modern life and taking jabs in a culture war topic.

Edit: I keep getting really hostile responses that are then deleted. Bad form, my friends.

[–]Non-negotiable -3ポイント-2ポイント  (15子コメント)

I think it's a bit weird to self-censor in order to appease a group that say they are against censorship but it's the writer's choice in the end.

[–]OccupyGravelpit 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I assume they had pushback from more than 'a group'. Otherwise, why change it? They're standing by their writer while acknowledging that taking sides in a two year old Internet slap fight is not a good idea.

[–]jojotmagnifficent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt it was the writers choice, she proudly proclaimed she was using the game as a platform for ragebaiting and it's not like her ilk to back down when they get the desired result. It was probably a decision by someone higher up at Beamdog. And I think removing the line was a bit silly too, it's not like it changes the fact they did it in the first place.

[–]litewo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's the writer's choice in the end.

Is it? It seems like they made this decision as a group. I'd like to know what the person who actually wrote the line thinks.

[–]AstronautsArcade 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

So this is censorship right? People complained about content (Terrible writing or not) and the dev changed it.

I mean this has to be censorship or is it only censorship when butts and tits get censored?

Edit: Serious note when is it Devs listening to feedback and when is it devs censoring to pander to X group.

Is it really as shallow as something I liked was removed = censorship, something I didn't like removed = dev just listening to player feedback.

Edit: Edit: I don't have a part in the "current gaming culture war" and I do not want to be a part of it. I enjoy games that's that, please be civil and refrain from yelling about SJWS TAKIN' YER GAMES or MYSOGGYKNEES and their boys club. I think both of you are way over the top.

[–]War_Dyn27 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

I don't have a part in the "current gaming culture war" and I do not want to be a part of it.

Too late mate, you're here now ;)

[–]xeio87 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So this is censorship right? People complained about content (Terrible writing or not) and the dev changed it.

Honestly, it's amusing how equal and opposite the reactions are between this and the Overwatch thing recently.

You're basically right, people just use "censorship" to refer to any change they don't like.

[–]Musai 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's only censorship when GG doesn't like it.

[–]JewWithGardenBeans -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not really censorship. Say people complain about an in-game mechanic because it doesn't really work in the context of the game, and the devs change it. You wouldn't say that's censorship either.

The devs changing the writing because of complaints that it's just plain bad and doesn't fit the universe the game is set in is not censorship. It's fixing an issue with the game.

[–]AstronautsArcade 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not really censorship. Say people complain about an in-game mechanic because it doesn't really work in the context of the game, and the devs change it. You wouldn't say that's censorship either.

I agree

The devs changing the writing because of complaints that it's just plain bad and doesn't fit the universe the game is set in is not censorship. It's fixing an issue with the

I agree, But I don't think Star ocean, Xenoblade, Overwatch were censored either. Feedback is feedback and if a dev decides to change something based off feedback it isn't censorship.

But people seem to use censorship to replace "thing I like got changed. "