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Kagawa (self.reddevils)

manny8361Valencia が 投稿

Been lurking reddit for 5-6 years and finally made account just to talk about kagawa since there was some discussion in another thread which I disagree with e.g. http://puu.sh/o5DJP/6f2874874f.png

I've been a Kagawa fan ever since he joined us and I just want to make things a clearer in terms of how he played with us and why I think it didn't work. Obviously the RVP and Mata transfers were huge in playing him out of position or him not playing at all but I won't be focussing on that. The team under fergie in his final year was not the best in terms of playing the style of football that kagawa was use to. For example I can only think of anderson, cleverley and evra who would even attempt link up play with kagawa. Most of the other players did not match with kagawa due to conflicting playstyles. E.g. young, nani, valencia, rvp and even rooney played a completely different game. Im not trying to hate on these players as they performed far better than kagawa in terms of goals /assists just the situation frustrates me. This game for example

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=727962643910408&set=vb.135649233141755&type=2&theater. This video pretty much defines what kagawas time at united was like. Now you look at that game kagawa has no goals or assist but what he offered as a number 10 is exactly what we lack atm. So when people say he only had 3 good games please watch the games and compare it to what we have atm.

Moving on to the moyes era and kagawa on the left wing: First of all I agree that kagawa was given chances just to be clear as even though he had injures he managed like nearly 40 games in 2 season which isn't too bad. I'll like to share two clips of kagawa on the left wing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IFpPL-cp3o Thats the game vs bayern where he played left wing and rooney cam I think. And this is a video shows the quality of his crosses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWo15oL7o4.

Kagawa spent most of the moyes season maybe all of it on the left wing and still if you look at these videos I think he did more than enough. My biggest regret is probably the fact that he never got to play under LVG. Like if he was in the team today instead of mata or lingard we would look far more threatening and creative. I can see why LVG didn't like him even though he had an ok preseason with him is cause he simply too direct for LVG. Its less about LVG btw and more about the players that we have now are far closer to kagawa's playstyle than in those two years he was here. I'm not saying he was the best player ever I just don't get it when they say he was a flop for us which I disagree with. Like if I was to compare mata and kagawa I think kagawa offers far more in terms of off the ball play aka tracking(hes faster) and in general off the ball play as a 10. And if you wanna compare just stats of this season. Kagawa has 24 games(many times used as a sub) and he has 6 goals 6 assists whereas Mata has 44 games (4 times subbed on) and he has 8 goals 7 assists. Personally I would love to have both of them together but yeah thats all. If you disagree please tell me why I would love to talk about this.

TL DR: read pls ;/

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[–]skinnysnaillegsGiggs 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I miss Shinji :(

[–]RyanSorsbyMartial 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Loved Kagawa, gutted he didn't work out.

[–]KeKaRoNiJanuzaj 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hat-trick versus Norwich never forget

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, it's just about the only thing worth remembering.

But I understand we're going to look back with rose-tinted glasses in this thread.

[–]LDN2016 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Kagawa's been the worst case of mismanagement I've seen at United.

Since he retired Fergie's said time and again that he was on plan integrating Kagawa into the 1st team and that the plan had been delayed by a few months because of his injury when he showed up. I have no doubts Rooney was on his way out that summer.

Kagawa got fucked over by Moyes' desperation to re-sign Rooney and his dinosaur tactics. Kagawa tore up the German league this season until his injury. He's been back in top form the last few weeks.

Our 5 best matches during Moyes season came when Kagawa played no. 10 - Just watch the matches and how many tap ins and open goals Welbeck, Chicharito etc mess up. How is that Kagawa's fault, he kept constantly putting chances on a plate.

I haven't seen a single match where Mata's controlled the match like Shinji. When Mata plays well it's just because he's scored a screamer or freekick but is pretty peripheral in actually running the play.

[–]danskzwag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mata is exactly the same kind of mismanagement, Kagawa was played on the left Mata on the right, LVG has tried to make Mata into a workhorse and Mata is less creative now aswell.

[–]IrnBroski 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

kagawa's influence reminds me of carrick's - very polarising.

one side thinks he offers nothing, and that those who support him can't see the fact that he actually offers very little end product.

one side thinks he offers everything, is a clever player, and that those who don't support him are effing blind.

i personally fall into the latter camp (for both carrick and kagawa, although carrick does have a tendency to get caught in possession.) and think that such players are not appreciated solely due to a lack of intelligence (although i concede, perhaps it is me who is lacking perception skills and the lack of being able to appreciate end product is a failing on my behalf.) football is not solely end product, it's just that end products are much easier to quantify. a goal can be scored as the result of a pass far earlier in the move. kagawa and carrick's intelligent and incisive play can be huge influences in starting attacking moves, catching teams off balance and so forth, and a failure further up the chain can result in these incisive passes going unappreciated, whilst if a goal had been scored they would have been further lauded.

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I acknowledge that he's a wonderful player; he just couldn't cut it in the Premiership.

There are many cases like his. I'm glad he's doing well back in Germany.

[–]DevilxAceRooney 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Once again... Kagawa is definitely a talent, I mean look at what he does for Dortmund despite being a sub! Absolutely loved the lad's playstyle, but it's unfortunate that he came in at the wrong time. If he'd joined now, or a few years prior to Sir Alex retiring, things may have been vastly different.

[–]BBQ_HaX0rRooney -2ポイント-1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Obviously the RVP and Mata transfers were huge in playing him out of position or him not playing at all but I won't be focussing on that.

Mata came a year and a half after him. And Mata is a superior #10. And I'm not a Mata fan. He's slow and a bit lazy and disappears for weeks on end. The same as Shinji. Kagawa's faults are the same as Mata's except Mata is a better player. Kagawa seldom performed and wasn't good enough to be played elsewhere or force a spot in the squad.

I'm sick this yearning for 'what could have been' under Kagawa... he didn't perform when he got his chances, even in his favored spot. Inb4 Norwich, I know he was capable of brilliance, but he was too slow to play anywhere else and not as good as Mata or Rooney or RvP. So why build a team around Kagawa when you have a better version in Mata? Enough with Shinji, he's gone and it didn't work out for a variety of reasons including his own talent and performances.

[–]LDN2016 7ポイント8ポイント  (10子コメント)

Mata is a superior #10

bullshit.

[–]BBQ_HaX0rRooney -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Recency bias. You've clearly forgotten what Shinji was like. Mata is the better player.

[–]LDN2016 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, I've been very consistent with my Mata critique and Shinji like since 2011.

I've called out Mata for being overrated when he was at Valencia, when he was at Chelsea and every season he's been with us. I've been a Shinji fan from is 1st season at Dortmund, even when he was a bit patchy during his introduction to european football.

I've been paying attention for a lot longer than most of you people to both these players as well as Hazard, Silva, Muller and Ozil. All these guys have been on my radar for a long time, we've needed a number 10 for many years.

[–]BBQ_HaX0rRooney 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mata is overrated. So is Shinji, especially among United fans. I forgot how crazed many Kagawa fans were and defended even the weakest of performances from him.

I pay attention too. I pay attention to United. And Mata has performed much better as a United player than Shinji... and that's saying something since I'm not Mata fan.

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I pay attention too. I pay attention to United. And Mata has performed much better as a United player than Shinji...

Are there anyone who claim that Kagawa was better while he was at United?

Kagawa was hilariously mediocre for us. He's very good for Dortmund, but aside from that Norwich match he did very little worth remembering.

[–]shinkag 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's bullshit. Watch Kagawa now. One of the best players in the Bundesliga. He performed so much better this season than Mata does for us. Kagawa was poorly managed for us and rarely got a game as the #10 so don't know what you're on about. Mata is absolutely not the better player, he disappears for whole games frequently.

[–]DANNYWELBECK12345De Gea 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Kagawa isn't one of the best players in bundesliga lol wut? he isn't even a consistent starter with castro gundogan and weigl

[–]IrnBroski 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

im a kagawa supporter but yeah he's not been amongst dortmund's best.

[–]LDN2016 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Kagawa's easily been one of the best in BuLi this season, what nonsense.

[–]DANNYWELBECK12345De Gea 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No he hasn't been. The outstanding performers in the dortmund team have been Hummels, Weigl, Gundogan, Mkhitaryan, Reus and Auba.

[–]BBQ_HaX0rRooney 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay then. Mata was one of the best players in the EPL before LvG's system. The stats also don't necessarily back up that Kagawa is a better player for this season.

Mata - 3028 minutes - 8G/7A - 1.5 shots per game - 1.7 Key Pass - 0.7 dribbles per game - 0.6 fouled per game - 1.2 dispossessed per game - 88.7% pass.

Kagawa - 2069 mins - 7G/7A - 1.1 shots per game - 1.4 key pass - 0.6 dribbles per game - 0.8 fouled per game - 1.7 dispossessed per game - 86.7%.

Those stats seem to indicate Mata is the better player especially if we factor in the systems both play in. I don't watch Dortmund but people compliment their system so I'm assuming it's free flowing and attack minded which would inflate stats to some degree. I could be wrong. We also have to factor in that Mata is often played out of position at RW (especially early in the season pre-Lingard) and plays in LvG's droll system.

Mata does disappear as I fully alluded to in my first post. However, Kagawa did the same thing for us at United. Mata was the better player, and likely still is the better player. They're similar, yet Mata is better at the same position and the stats seem to indicate this. Mata's fee indicates this. Mata's reputation internationally indicates this. And most importantly Mata's performances for United (which is mainly what I go by) indicates this.

[–]IrnBroski -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=727962643910408&set=vb.135649233141755&type=2&theater. This video pretty much defines what kagawas time at united was like. Now you look at that game kagawa has no goals or assist but what he offered as a number 10 is exactly what we lack atm. So when people say he only had 3 good games please watch the games and compare it to what we have atm.

quoted from OP. he's a different player from mata. not worse by any stretch.

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No it doesn't. It defines that one match. Most of his performances were nothing like it.

[–]matthew1955 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

As much as we can pretend, the reality is that neither Kagawa or Mata are world class.