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1939 Nazi Germany vs 2016 Poland (self.whowouldwin)

KitKhat が 投稿

Nazi Germany is transported to 2016 and decide they've had enough of Poland. Their win scenario is the complete occupation of Poland, and Poland's win scenario is the complete occupation of Germany. Modern starting borders apply.

No allies, and all foreign military bases in Poland magically disappear. Passive use of foreign GPS satellites is allowed, but no outside nation gets to redirect their satellites to help either country. Basically no active outside intervention of any kind.

Round 1: Nazi Germany is fully mobilized and launch the exact same invasion that they did on September 1, 1939. Poland has 1 week to mobilize beforehand. The idea is that Poland will have enough time to prepare their standing army and reserve forces but not enough time to conduct mass conscription.

Round 2: Same as above but neither country gets to use their air force (given that Polish planes would be virtually invincible).

Round 3: Germany gets to use their air force but not Poland.

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[–]somethingtrue 106ポイント107ポイント  (43子コメント)

Poland stomps rather easily, the technology gap is huge.

[–]TheBlackBear 38ポイント39ポイント  (18子コメント)

Yup.

Imagine the First Gulf War, except 2-3 eras of tech difference instead of just one.

[–]KitKhat[S] 31ポイント32ポイント  (17子コメント)

The Gulf War is a good comparison; huge conventional force gets decimated by advanced weaponry. But how much of that was due to the air force and navy?

[–]TheBlackBear 35ポイント36ポイント  (14子コメント)

Most of it. But the Polish Navy is really well equipped and once the Luftwaffe is obliterated (absurd stomp with modern AA against prop planes), the only thing limiting the Polish Air Force would be how long they could rearm and fly back to the platter of exposed targets on the ground.

Even the Polish ground forces would be stomping. I'd be embarrassed if they lost more than a handful of tanks.

Numbers is basically the only thing the Nazis have going for them.

[–]KitKhat[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well the Polish air force is gone in round 3, and I'm not sure how much of a factor the navy will be for the Polish. What is it going to accomplish? The germans would probably not even try to contest the sea at all.

[–]Gen_McMuster 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lack of air isn't a big deal. Modern radar guided AA guns/missiles will ground the Luftwaffe. And the advantages provided by modern armor and well equiped infantry will nullify any German advantage in numbers

[–]_pH_ 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Remember, in WWII, bolt action rifles were still the stanrdard, and semiautomatic rifles had just started to be a thing. Full auto machine guns existed, but they were really just emplacements. I'm more familiar with the US military, but I assume Poland has an equivalent to a few humvees with mounted MK 19 full auto grenade launchers, the morale break alone could cripple the Germans.

[–]CJ4Short 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The fact that individual Polish soldiers each carry a weapon equivalent in firing capacity as the German Machine Gun Equads must be morally devastating.

[–]engapol123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A humvee is going to be the least of a German soldier's worries when entire panzer battalions get deleted by a Leopard 2.

[–]Oh_Sweet_Jeebus 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hell if they lost ANY tanks they should be embarrassed. Between reactive armor, sloped armor (which basically negates the only thing Nazi tank shells had going for them, which was high penetration on flat surfaces), and the ludicrous advantage of modern optics (hell the Nazis wouldn't know where rounds are coming from) the Nazis should never be able to destroy a tank with a well-trained crew.

I would bring up the guided missiles modern tanks can fire from their barrels and the absolute devastation they would have on Nazi tanks, but I don't have time or words to explain the carnage that would ensue.

[–]Gen_McMuster 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention this is 1939 germany. Prior to implementing infantry AT weapons or even long barreled cannons on their armor. Their tanks were armed with 75mm assault howitzers with effective AP ranges measured in 100s of meters rather than kilometers.

Their only relatively effective AT weapons will be static gun emplacements. Which might as well be HE bait for modern weapon systems

[–]Chaos20X6 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Numbers is basically the only thing the Nazis have going for them.

Wasn't the same true of the Soviets on the Eastern front though?

[–]JennyFinnDoomMessiah 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

But they were powered by communism and vodka, whereas the Germans are merely powered by fascism and schnapps. Not comparable.

[–]Logically_Insane 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think you got Germany mixed up with the Confederacy.

[–]ColdBeef 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What if Germany has an unlimited supply of s'mores schnapps and are led by full Hitler-lusted Cartman? Bonus round OP?

[–]mousicle 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The tech gap wasn't as huge. In fact Russia had tanks that out performed German tanks, just not a lot of them.

[–]Gen_McMuster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, soviet losses could be attributed to differences in military ethos.

Germany: Good amount of soldiers, all well trained and equipped

Soviet; Absurd amount of soldiers, just enough equipment and decent to poor training/motivation. +tactics that have low regard for lives spent

[–]bobdole3-2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, and looked how that turned out. The Nazis, despite fighting a war on three different continents, managed to kill more than 10% of the Soviet population and managed to march all the way to Stalingrad. There was a very real chance that the Soviets could have lost. And that was against an enemy with a much smaller technological edge.

[–]CinnamonJ 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The air campaign against Iraq was mostly directed at command and control elements. The heavy lifting was done by units on the ground. Just to illustrate, the "precombat" bombing of Iraq reduced their military strength by ~10%. In every recorded engagement with a company sized unit of abrahms tanks, the tanks inflicted 90% casualties on enemy forces.

[–]inthedarkbluelight 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As I recall, US M1 tanks were basically immune to the Iraqis soviet era tanks.

[–]KitKhat[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (20子コメント)

Things that may offset this:

Germany has twice as large population and is mobilized on much higher scale. Poland can field around half a million men according to wiki, Germany has several million soldiers from the get go.

Lack of air force and navy negates some of the technological gap. It's still huge of course, but leveraging it solely on the ground can be a challenge as has been proven in multiple conflicts since the 60s.

[–]CJ4Short 33ポイント34ポイント  (3子コメント)

Even the SS turn and run when they realize their tanks are being one-shotted from across the horizon.

Or their infantry are being turned to meat puppets by an enemy that carries accurate automatic weapons and has CAS.

Or their airforce can't even leave the ground, and the few planes that slip away are going maybe 400 km/h while Poland has F-16D's going well over 2,000 km/h. Germany's little machine guns can't even hit the jets poland is flying.

[–]KitKhat[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Poland has F-16D

In round 3 Poland doesn't get to use it's air force at all while Germany does.

[–]The_Riddler_88 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any modern day ground based AA would quickly eliminate WWII aircraft. SAM sites would shoot down the aircraft before the pilot even saw them.

Edit: Poland doesn't have SAM's. thanks /u/Cherentr

[–]Cherentr 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC Poland doesn't have such SAMs. They have Groms which would still pretty easily down any WW2 German planes.

[–]somethingtrue 13ポイント14ポイント  (15子コメント)

I don't think you understand how much technology matters in these types of scenarios. It matters a lot. Poland has modern everything. Even if Poland had 1/3 of the soldiers it has now, it would still stomp. WW2 Germany doesn't stand a chance

[–]KitKhat[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

I don't think you understand how much technology matters in these types of scenarios.

That's fine, I'm willing to learn.

How are the Polish going to stop millions of infantry streaming across the countryside? Are the German planes no match for Polish AA at all?

[–]indigo_voodoo_child 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Poland's weapons outclass the Germans' so extensively that German casualties will be much, much, much higher. Polish ground to air missiles and anti aircraft barrage will make scrap metal out of any nazi planes that get within 50 miles of the Polish border.

[–]Gen_McMuster 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

They'll be able to stop infantry by shooting them. Each polish soldier has the force projection of a German light machine-gunner.

And are supported by modern armor and AT. Which has anti-infantry measures that outrange German rifles and AT, so practically untouchable

[–]skylin4 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think you understand how much technology matters in these types of scenarios.

That's fine, I'm willing to learn.

Kudos on that statement alone!

[–]somethingtrue 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

How are the Polish going to stop millions of infantry streaming across the countryside?

In most of the cases, the polish will only need to defend at first. Their smaller, but superior infantry with support from modern tanks, MRLSs, AFVs, etc. would easily handle the germans, even in high numbers. It would basically be a slaughter. After the polish fully mobilize they will drive off the germans and plan the invasion of Germany.

Are the German planes no match for Polish AA

Modern AA has incredible range, the germans won't even be able to kamikaze.

[–]RegalGoat 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'll illustrate it for you: Nazi anti-tank weaponry would be about as effective against modern tank armour as throwing pebbles at a brick wall.

Real life isn't like Civ where a bunch of archers can take down fighter jets or where legionnaries can defeat a tank, modern armorment will always trump old armorment.

[–]Gen_McMuster 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Germany's 1939 early war mobile AT really is milquetoast. Their infantry had a few AT rifles(no panzerfaust/schreck yet) and their tanks mostly had assault guns(short barreled weapons meant to shoot HE).

They had static AT guns which would definitely be effective vs most IFVs or even older MBTs if they can score a hit. But with modern optics/guidance those static emplacements basically become HE/ATGM bait for polish forces as they have a far superior accurate range

[–]engapol123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the only weapons 1939 Germany have that have realistic chances against modern MBTs are naval guns. The standard army AT gun was the 3.7cm Pak 36...you know, the gun that was useless against T-34s and pre-war French tanks.

[–]GriffsWorkComputer 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

what about a smaller country like Norway vs ww2 Germany?

[–]somethingtrue 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Norway is much weaker than Poland military wise. They definitely won't be able to invade, but I still think they would be able to hold off the german invasion at least 8/10.

[–]Tote_Sport 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Norway still stomp WWII Germany

[–]mcavvacm 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting site, looked up my own country. It's a bit outdated looking at the total population but it gives me a general idea.

[–]GriffsWorkComputer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

only 52 tanks damn

[–]engapol123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Norway in WW2 put up a pretty good fight, modern Norway would stomp 9.5/10.

[–]Ingenium21 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

same satisfaction as when you put the infinite money cheats in civilization and your apache helicopter is going against infantry with muskets

[–]Mauzeraut 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've lost a battleship to a militia before. I remember yelling about it.

Granted that was Civ I or II, but still. The question of "how?" immediately comes up... thinking the guy that snuck onboard and killed every crew member with his bare fuckin hands might have a good story to tell.

[–]Ingenium21 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Must have been captain America

[–]Adam9172 30ポイント31ポイント  (1子コメント)

Germany's air force is negligable when AA systems hit at twice or more the effective range of Luffwafte bombers.

Also, I think you vastly underestimate how much Poland can do in a week. Poland too stronk.

Germany gets stomped 9.9/10.

[–]DirectlyDisturbed 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

Poland too stronk

But he cannot into space...he just cannot into space.

[–]Kingslayer266 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe a better one.

How many clones of the Wermacht would it take to defeat modern day Poland?

[–]irumeru 42ポイント43ポイント  (11子コメント)

I think you guys are discounting one massive issue that the Poles have in this one: Resupply.

All of Poland's military equipment is dependent on United States logistics. They have no internal tank manufacturing, no internal tank ammunition manufacturing, no internal missile manufacturing for AA or airborne combat.

The Nazis are fielding one of the largest armies the world has ever seen. One and a half million men (I'm assuming they don't get the Soviet portion). Yes, the Poles have 1000 incredibly advanced tanks, but they don't have enough equipment for full combat operations for longer than a few weeks to a month. The Germans have a total logistic base that supported a war effort for 6 years against most of the rest of the world.

With the Air Force Poland inflicts heavy early casualties, but Germany simply buries them under a 10-1 advantage in numbers when supplies run low for the Poles.

[–]Clone95 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

Poland has one of the best domestic arms industries outside of France & Germany proper. Almost all of their ground equipment is homegrown - including the PT-91 Twardy tank and Rosomak IFV which they produce domestically. You're just plain wrong there.

Consider the timetable here, too - the Poles have ammunition for a few weeks of modern-tempo warfare, not a few weeks of WW2-style conflict. The Germans are still moving equipment via horse for most of WW2, and they were the fastest army on the planet.

Every single Polish formation is at minimum Motorized, more realistically Mechanized. Their infantry can fight at night and during the day. Their aircraft can clusterbomb enemy airfields in the dark, and don't need missiles to shoot down planes made of shit steel and wood frames. A two-second burst from an F-16's gun is enough to kill an aircraft - and they've got a speed/maneuverability advantage too tough to match.

While I agree Poland may have trouble with supplies, they'll bloody the Germans into a stalemate and quickly ramp up production and conscription. After that, it's only a matter of time.

[–]irumeru 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was under the impression that they had closed those production lines to rely on the German Leopard entirely. The last Twardy was produced in 2002, no?

[–]TexasSpaceLawyer 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think you are discounting a massive issue that the Germans have and that is morale. If their tanks are getting blown to pieces far beyond their own range, artillery is dropping shells and shifting fire with what would be considered pinpoint accuracy and super speed to the Germans and their bombers are being blown out of the sky before they even get close to their targets, morale in the German Army is going to drop fast. The first few engagements, both in the air and on the ground, would be utterly demoralizing to the Germans and would seriously influence their ability to fight.

[–]irumeru 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's a good point too. Although Germany's armies managed to keep fighting at Stalingrad, and I can't think the Poles are going to do anything that's anywhere close to that horror-show.

[–]TexasSpaceLawyer 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stalingrad was a slugfest that drained German morale over time. This would be a sucker punch to German morale.

[–]Gen_McMuster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A stalingrad scale engagement would be over in a couple of days with polish firepower(added to list of phrases you don't get to use often). Sure the poles wouldn't be able to keep replicating these large scale fights with limited supplies, but I doubt they'd need to as they'd have put the fear of god into the germans after first contact

[–]ElderlyPowerUser 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What they may lack in morale they would make up for in methamphetamine.

[–]BoldGambit 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are discounting the fact that modern Poland has all the positions of German factories, infrastructure and even the tine and place that German leadership will meet.

If airpower is allowed, Poland has unstoppable jet fighters with PGMs. Germany can't outproduce if it has no factories, It will have a difficult time moving troops when all of the vital bridges are out and there is no oil or electricity being produced. The leadership will die before they know what hit them.

I would also like to note that Poland has war stocks sufficient for sustained combat operations with modern Russia (a war that would expend munitions and men faster then this one) Poland also has massive stockpiles of Cold War surplus arms and munitions that while currently outdated, out tech the Germans significantly.

Poland also does not rely on foreign purchases for much of its defense. Poland makes its own rifles, ammunition, grenades, mortars, MANPADS, SAMs, ATGMs, artillery and tank shells. It also produces armored vehicles, uniforms, warships and helicopters.

Polands only real handicap is its limited supply of POL, so while the German invasion would be handily defeated and Germany crippled, I cant see them carrying out offensive operations into Germany until new supply lines are established.

[–]intredasted 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why don't you at least skim wikipedia before commenting on something you clearly have no knowledge about?

Land forces

Aircraft

I mean yeah, they're not capable of independently producing a fighter jet (only USA, Russia and France are, btw), but your whole argument is based on...let's call it thin air.

[–]engapol123 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Numbers simply cannot make up for the ridiculous tech gap. Germany's tanks might as well be made of origami as far as the Polish Leopard 2s and T-72 clones are concerned.

And Poland's total strength including reserves is more than 600,000, where did you pull the 10:1 advantage?

[–]irumeru 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was only counting active troops. Poland has 150,000 active, Germany invaded with 1.5 million.

[–]GelfandDesign 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

My friend's sort of an informal military expert, so I asked him for his opinion.

According to him, Germany takes this one. Poland may have a much more advanced military, but they don't have the budget to maintain and repair an actively fighting force. The large number of well-trained German forces would likely overwhelm them.

Not only are the Germans better trained, but Poland's military is not self-sufficient. Poland trains for scenarios where NATO is providing assistance; they don't know how to fight on their own. They rely far too heavily on coalition support.

In conclusion, Poland is facing vastly superior numbers with a force they can't maintain on their own, both in budget and training. In this case, numbers beat technology. Germany wins.

EDIT: My friend elaborated further, pointing out that most modern military tactics are based on what the Germans did in World War II. 1939 Germany was only held back tactically by Hitler's desire to micromanage the armed forces (oil wasn't a problem yet). If the German generals (Rommel especially) were given free reign during WWII, they likely would've won. The point is that Germany's commanders are far more competent than Poland's higher-ups, and that's another major factor swinging the momentum towards Germany.

[–]engapol123 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

How can you possibly conclude that WW2 German soldiers were better trained than modern Polish soldiers? It's a myth that the Wehrmacht and SS were some elite ubermensch force. They had good units and plenty of bad ones, just like any military. Poland isn't some backward nation that has an army of illiterate peasant conscripts, they've had an all-volunteer force since 2009.

And Germany's war economy (and government in general) was a joke as well, they had to obtain huge amounts of forced labourers and resources+cash from whoever they occupied simply to sustain the war effort, it was so mis-managed and the direction was so poor that for example; fighter aircraft production only peaked in 1944 when the war was already lost. Not to mention that batshit insane designs that would've never seen production in Allied nations actually made it onto the battlefield and consequently failed hard, a result of a political structure that involved everyone in the leadership cockblocking each other in order to gain Hitler's favour.

'They don't know how to fight on their own'....Really? You think a military 600,000 strong that shares a border with an aggressive regional power hasn't made plans to fight on its own? Your friend is no expert...

REPLY TO EDIT: Again, he is terribly wrong, German tactics in WW2 were nothing new contrary to popular belief, a lot of their strategy was already developed even before WW1 and during the inter-war period. Germany's military was hampered by far more than just Hitler, it had systematic inefficiencies like rubbish logistics, poor weapon development and a shockingly low portion of mechanised units. Btw, your 'expert' lost all credibility when he claimed that Germany actually had a chance of winning WW2.

Germany had some good generals yeah, but so did everyone else, can he provide any evidence that modern Polish commanders would be inferior to German generals?

[–]noblesix31 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

First: numbers aren't everything when your average polish infantryman has more firepower then 10 German soldiers.

Next, logistics are going to be much more of a problem for the Germans then Poland one polish aircraft start obliterating Germany's horse powered logistics. To add to that, Poland makes a substantial amount of its equipment in house, so resupplying won't be an issue.

[–]Gen_McMuster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wouldn't the pols be able to completely cripple german logistics(factories, bridges, supply lines) and command with modern airpower? And be able to adjust into a wartime economy considering they'll be safe from enemy bombing campaigns while the german production facilities will be in ashes?

And I don't think it's fair to pull the "better training" card when the German army doesn't have any experience(or expectation) of fighting targets beyond the effective range of their best(at this time stationary) weapons systems. Not to mention their infantry is armed exclusively with single shot rifles at this point and has no man portable AT to check the polish mechanized divisions of infantry that will be far more mobile than the famed blitzkrieg that has been refined in the modern era

[–]saintscanucks 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is almost a century difference in tech. Poland thrashes them

[–]Galxctus 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

pashaBiceps reks house with Taz and Neo, so, Poland wins

[–]spikebrennan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Round 1 makes no sense: "launch the exact same invasion"? Using modern starting borders, Germany has lost about a quarter of its land area:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Germany_after_World_War_II#/media/File:Oder-neisse.gif

including all of the territory from which the invasion was actually launched:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#/media/File:Poland1939_GermanPlanMap.jpg

[–]elvarien 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, so the technology difference is not as extreme as the timestamped video below but really, the end result aught to be somewhat similar. 0 chance of success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFxrzSrVv0I&feature=youtu.be&t=392