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ANNOUNCEMENT"PROOF", Andrew Hussie & ipgd, 2016, Vine (vine.co)

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[–]cookiefonster -7ポイント-6ポイント  (50子コメント)

do you think its wishful thinking that hussie is at least kinda leading into some massive trolling thing with this davekat shit? because i really would not even think of putting that past hussie.

[–]RenegadeShroom 20ポイント21ポイント  (19子コメント)

Please, please just stop. I've argued with you about Davekat on the MSPA forums before, and like... it's fine to not like the ship. It is. But you keep talking about it, and bringing it up all the time, and at a certain point, no matter your intentions, there's such a thing as too much. Being this contrary to a ship is reflecting poorly on you, regardless of your actual intent.

The thing is, that when you keep insisting, over and over again, "maybe it's not canon, maybe we're being trolled, maybe ... !" against mounting evidence, people are going to ask why, especially people who are invested in the ship for personal reasons because the ship itself is breaking with convention.

Like, first there was the implication of Davekat. Then there was Vriska explicitly saying that they're in some sort of romantic relationship. Then there was Jasprose-- a character who is incapable of lying because she has absolutely no filter --explicitly saying that Karkat has a matesprit, and Dave's sexuality ramblings. After all that, people kept denying it and saying "okay but maybe it's pale," and ipgd tells us, no, they're dating, they're flushed and you have to deal with it. Which still wasn't enough! And gave us this vine. This has been explicitly canon since before the start of the omegapause, but people refused to see it.

You don't have to like it. You don't have to pretend to like it. You don't even have to accept it. You don't have to do anything. But you could at least pretend to accept it, and stop complaining about it all the time, because it's causing unnecessary stress and tension for you and everyone you're arguing with over something that shouldn't even matter to you this much. Is a little civility too much to ask?

[–]hhhamsauce 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

aside: I wish people would stop equating pale with platonic.

[–]Dirk is great | Dirkjake is endgame | Maid of Heartdotsbourne 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

it reminds me of when people kept insisting a black ship between Dirk and Jake would somehow be less gay.

[–]crescentfeather 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

in troll context no

in human context it is platonic

and we're all humans, probably

[–]hhhamsauce 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

yeah but if you're discussing the characters in the comic, one of whom is a troll, presumably that character would see a pale relationship as romantic. using "maybe it's pale" to mean "maybe dave and karkat just see each other as good platonic buddies" doesn't make sense in the context of the fictional world established.

[–]ΩChrist_In_A_Sidecar 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Have you heard of the terms Doylist and Watsonian? It refers to Sherlock Holmes - Doyle is an out-of-universe perspective and Watson an in-universe one.

Anyway, the Watsonian view of pale relationships is romantic, yes. But to us, in an outside context, it looks almost exactly like they're just best friends with a different name. No matter what Hussie calls it in comic, because of our own cultural biases and all that crap we just view it as best friends. That's why people talk about them being in a pale quadrant after all this as 'queerbaiting' and things like that, because authors have to think about both perspectives when writing.

To Karkat, yeah, it might be romance. To any reader, it's basically being friends.

[–]hhhamsauce 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, I mean, that's the basic difference in perspectives between analyzing a piece of writing as a work of fiction versus interpreting information within a story. If you're discussing Homestuck as a piece of fiction, yeah, it's super fair to discuss pale as queer-but-not-really. That's a reasonable discussion to have!

But my beef is that there's been a consistent argument that Dave-the-character can't be gay because we-the-readers interpret pale as platonic. Which is a faulty premise! Dave-the-character is either "real" or not; we either accept the (to us, fictional) events of his life as he expresses them or not. If the characters would interpret the relationship as a romantic one, they would then identify themselves by that interpretation, not by the one the readership assigns. If we're making comparisons to other works, it's like saying Hamlet isn't really conflicted about anything because we as readers know Claudius is a murderer and have differing ideas about Hell.

[–]ΩChrist_In_A_Sidecar 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course that's all true, but it depends on how Dave treats it too. He may not think of it as a romance also, especially since he has expressed doubts in the quadrant system before (pitch Gamrezi for example)

That's why I think (like many others) Karkat will ditch the quadrants rather than Dave accept them. Which, thinking about it, is interesting since John is one of the most likely humans to actually pick up the quadrants. So the two 'protagonists' may switch in that regard.

[–]crescentfeather 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

p sure the jasprose thing confirmed that it's matesprits.

even if jasprose hadn't confirmed it i think you can understand that it would have been kinda a dick move for hussie to do all that sexuality exposition and then have it turn out to be a thing that's platonic by human standards

[–]hhhamsauce 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

yeah no in this case it's definitely matesprits. which is why my whole comment was an aside.

but when it was first shown in the flash people were using pale as some kind of "no it's not really happening" cover. it was obnoxious.

[–]crescentfeather 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ah alright cool

yeah, because from a human perspective it wouldn't be romantic if that were the case. i mean when someone tells you they ship something you don't assume they mean pale. the fanbase in general sees pale as "best friends forever" so your point of view isn't too common.

[–]ectoGeochronologist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

there's a really good Davekat fic where they start out as pale, yet it still reads as incredibly wonderfully gay and romantic (even before all of the quadrant confusion). it's really long, but here's their first conversation about being moirails. idk if you're into reading fanfic, but this interpretation of pale romance might interest you

[–]hhhamsauce 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought that fic was a super interesting take on the whole concept actually :)

[–]RenegadeShroom 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I've been confused about how to think of it for a while now. Like, I'm asexual/aromantic, so I'm very aware of how romantic attraction separate from sexual attraction is treated by people, so it strikes me that moirallegiance shouldn't be much different from... just that? Asexual romantic relationships? But people have a huge misunderstanding of pale relationships as is, so most often I see it being treated as like, nothing more than just guys bein' dudes/gals bein' pals or whatever, so I tend to address it like the latter.

edit: sorry for dragging aro/ace shit into this but i thought it was relevant to how i see it :v

[–]hhhamsauce 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree I think the best comparison in a human context is an asexual romantic relationship. It's very clearly explained in canon that it's a romantic relationship in troll culture.

But yeah everybody treats it like platonic broz who are just buddies yanno which.... it's not. They're aliens, they're going to have relationships that aren't exactly analogous to humans, so if you want to discuss the alien character's motivations you have to take that into account.

I blame Eridan bitching about being moirail-zoned.

[–]RenegadeShroom 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay I completely forgot to add other actual thoughts, whoops. Maybe an ace romantic relationship is the most analogous? I could see pale having some different criteria which don't entirely line up with that. The whole complimentary emotional profile thing might be it, but that seems to me like it should be a basic function of a normal human romantic relationship... hmm.

[–]RenegadeShroom 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eridan, and Hussie maybe probably not really being aware of stuff like asexuality at the time, I think... but mostly Eridan.

Thanks, Eridan. It's not enough that you tried to murder a bunch of your friends, but you also made shipping discussions harder for us! Unbe-fucking-lievable.

[–]hey 2tupiid! why you lookiing at my flaiir?PokemonTom09 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a very similar view to you. It's because of comments like these that I sometimes think it'd be cool to just sometime have a discussion about the potential implications of troll romance in human society, because thinking about how trolls view romance in Homestuck has helped me; as an asexual; better understand how other people view romantic and sexual interactions in real life.

[–]fiveforchaos 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I honestly wonder if Hussie was doing some kind of social experiment, trying to see just how blatant he has to make a ship before people stop debating it. For extra effectiveness, of course, he had to pick the two most shipped characters in hs.

[–]Dirk is great | Dirkjake is endgame | Maid of Heartdotsbourne 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Back when Dirk was first introduced I felt like there was a bit of this going on. I saw a few people say "god, how much harder is Hussie going to hammer in that Dirk's gay, we get it" but he kept driving the point home because people kept fucking denying it.

I don't know if it's social experiment so much as exasperated befuddlement at people refusing to just fucking take what's there.

[–]Dirk is great | Dirkjake is endgame | Maid of Heartdotsbourne 10ポイント11ポイント  (21子コメント)

Yes. It's extremely wishful thinking. IPGD responded to "a guy has to have hope" re:dave/not karkat with "well, don't."

Also this would be an incredibly cruel troll that would be mean to his lgbt readers for absolutely no fucking reason.

[–]pumpkin party in sea hitlers water apocalyspssometipsygnostalgic 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

at this stage, if davekat turned out to not be canon, there would be a HUGE fucking scandal.

actually, same for if one of them was tragically killed off espevially for het.

[–]icels 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

OH MY GOD. Hussie literally wrote it himself. Just fucking stop it already.

[–]Dirk is great | Dirkjake is endgame | Maid of Heartdotsbourne 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think I'm running out of straws because someone keeps grasping at them

[–]icels 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

The sad thing is that he's serious. At least the guys on /co/ complaining about it right now are being somewhat facetious.