The Melee Community Rant- InfernoOmni

StabbyMcKniferson · 6日前

I can understand where Omni is coming from, but after watching this video I feel somewhat frustrated. I agree that the tension between smash 4 players and melee players is bad for the smash community as a whole, but I don't think that he does a good job of characterizing the tension in light of the recent issues that he brings up.

I especially disagree with his point that "people are salty that [ESAM] is going to this event. That he's actually qualifying over other melee players just because he plays smash 4". I think that trivializes the issues that people have had with ESAM's position in the SS2 nominations. I would wager that most people who have issues with his nomination aren't so focused on the fact that he's a smash 4 player, but instead on other factors like his tweets and position with regard to other possible players.

Additionally, I don't believe the tone is particularly helpful. The video purports, at least in part, to be trying to get tensions to calm down ("Finally to the brawl and smash 4 community, you need to forgive. You need to drop the hate"). But he spends most of the time making large generalizations that (I believe) will only make people upset whether they agree or disagree with him.

I think that being vocal about bad behavior is a good and beneficial thing, but at the same time I think that the amount of generalization of the melee community is particularly antagonistic. "Let me be clear. This is not an issue where we blame both sides. Where somehow both the melee and smash 4 community are at fault." Putting the blame on the melee community as a whole isn't looking critically at the problem, and diminishes the work that people like Tafo and D1 have done to encourage more overlap.

I agree that we shouldn't stand for aggression between players of these two games, but at the same time I think that this video is less likely to encourage conciliatory behavior between two disparate groups of people and more likely to fan the flames of ire between them.

feplus · 6日前

"People are salty that [esam] is going to this event... just because he plays Smash 4."

Why make a video like this if you're going to misrepresent the other side?

People don't want esam at the Summit because Melee isn't his primary game, he'll get his ass beat, and he'll stop a better player from attending. Playing Smash 4 doesn't matter.

People criticize D1 because his play-by-play style can get a bit dry and sometimes lacks substance. When he does well (he's been doing very well recently) the Melee community gives him props. Commentating Smash 4 doesn't matter.

Stop treating criticism, especially warranted criticism, as hate. This is a juvenile attitude.

rayzorium · 6日前

Did something happen recently? I feel like everyone's talking about Melee players being assholes now.

AngryPooMonkey · 6日前

I get what this video is trying to say and its a seemingly valid reasoning on the surface but he seems to have completely glossed over the counterarguments without giving any real insight into the roots of each problem. This video is essentially trying to boil down a lot of issues within the melee community to a single prevalent cause that in my personal opinion, simply isn't there. Here is some rebuttal relating directly to points made in the video:

While it is true Tkbreezy and D1 got a fair share of criticism during battle of the five gods its not as if it was all simply justified by the fact that they play smash 4, there were genuine problems with repetition and some questionable inputs (tk talking about how m2k should have another main, D1 repeating himself a lot). Although I agree some of it was excessive and purely hateful a lot of it was genuine reasoning. On top of this you do have to think, why is a commentator who does not primarily play melee or commentate being placed in such a huge event of such great importance? Wouldn't a seasoned veteran be better for the job? TK himself admitted to this, it came right from his own mouth, I guess you could again argue it was just due to being pressured but like I said before it really does show in his commentary. It's not like people are hating on him for trying to get into melee, its the fact that such an inexperienced commentator with no real past experience with melee was being brought in so suddenly for something as big as that. You can veil it up and say its all just smash 4 haters but the point still stands that there's far more to this argument.
This point about people hating on ESAM for getting into smash summit is, unlike the previous point, complete garbage in my view (and I'm sure in the view of many others). You stated rather factually that ESAM was a top melee player and qualified to be entering, but if you had taken the time to do some reaserch you might have found some reasons why this isnt true,using this thread for reference I would like to point out why exactly he managed to qualify 'technically' yet still receives a lot of criticism for it. My first point here is that ESAM managed to get in because of his 25th placement in TBH 5 (which, mind you, was an extremely lucky result caused by druggedfox loosing to ginger early on whom ESAM easily beat) and top 100 in MIOM. Here I will admit, ESAM is a good melee player, as MacD mentioned on twitter, hes pretty good in a vacuum, but competing at the level of gods and top top melee players? He seems to fall short there, or rather - he doesn't stand a fucking chance. People (rightfully) do not expect him to put on a good show at the summit, people want to see the highest level of melee played between established and upcoming top players. Not only is the summit a spectacle for melee but it is also a HUGE chance for players to gain practice and improve, and to top it all of there are only 6 places. Its only logical that only the best of the best should be favored to go and ESAM simply isn't there. People were also rather angry that Alex19 got so far in the last summit but here we have ESAM who is a considerably worse player (if you want proof, wait till the summit) actually taking a place. You would be crazy to think he wouldn't get a shit ton of hate or to think it was completely unjustified and based on game preference. A final point to ad to this arguement is that smash summit is a golden opportunity for upcoming and current top melee players to improve; people like Duck, Ice, Javi, Professor Pro, S2J, Lucky and Wizzrobe who play and depend on melee as their passion and lifeline, who would benefit greatly from the experience of playing other top players are now forced out of an already limited position, taken instead by someone who does not focus on melee or have anywhere near the same incentive or drive to improve. Not only this but ESAM's attitude to the whole affair has been pretty rotten too, rather than talking about what he may bring to the event in order to gain votes he has given rewards, like Smash 4 tutoring and access to an exclusive discord server, to people that vote for him and donate, on top of that many of these rewards (as you might notice) have nothing to do with melee and show clearly that many of the people voting for him are from the Smash 4 community, not melee. These people are therefore less likely to have as much insight into the melee metagame or be bothered about how the event goes - they want to see a player they know primarily for Smash 4 go to a melee event. Now when you add this to the previous point that ESAM has no or little relative devotion to melee and has not given any clear reasons why his place in the summit is justified or how he will put on a good show its only certain he will get hate. To many people it seems as if he's used his influence from smash 4 to essentially 'pay his way' into the Summit without doing anything to earn it, and by replacing more favorable players you could argue he's a determent to the event and thus the Melee community as a whole.

On a more personal note, if you're going to point fingers at people for being 'toxic' like you seem to love doing then I suggest you at least try to give an informative and well reasoned argument rather than throwing out such a one sided half-assed video to so many viewers who may end up forming their own misled opinions out of it. Ranting about the melee community here is not only childish but hypocritical, and its unfortunate that you would use your position to spread misinformation and non-issues during a delicate time such as this. You can never reduce issues such as these down to one cause like you seem to have done here, I'm certain you're not dumb enough to not realize that, so next time it would be nice if you could point some of those out to your beloved viewers...

The melee community has plenty of reason to be pissed off; don't give them another.

evilpenguin234 · 6日前

this thread will be fun

slimcswagga · 6日前

People always bring up "what about alex19 and kage???" At least it was melee players voting these guys in because they find them entertaining. It's different when fans of a completely different game are voting people into our summit just because they can. I don't want street fighter fans swaying the voting to get combofiend in summit either.

AverageTwitchUser · 6日前

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqKjtECbOc

Toludude · 6日前

Who has butter? I like butter on my popcorn.

jayceiscute · 6日前

/u/InfernoOmni people are not mad because he plays sm4sh. people are mad for a plethora of actual reasons

skintay12 · 6日前

So, is this video's purpose to bolster the MASSIVE victim complex that Smashers have, and misrepresent issues? If so, great job, you've got my kudos.

wireware · 6日前

I'm ready to take the hate

Omni confirmed dying for our sins.

GoldenTerrabyte · 6日前

Good video, but there's one really important point I feel it forgets to make. And that is, the whole thing where everybody just leaves it at "Melee is good for competitive players, Smash 4 is good for casuals", because that's a very gross oversimplification of the whole thing.

I don't want to ramble on here too much, but what I'm basically saying is, Melee is super fun for casual play, it's got a lot of cool things going for it there too. You don't have to be a pro player to enjoy playing Melee, because it's just a damn good game from any standpoint. Smash 4 may be my favorite game in the series, but there's lots of things I know it doesn't have that I like about Melee. ~~Like Young Link.~~

And likewise, what's not competitive about Smash 4? A lack of wavedashing or something similar? That's totally negligible. Smash 4 is technical like Melee is, it's just got a different style of that. And Smash 4 is different because of the variety it offers. Not just in characters, but in playing styles too. Melee still has lots of playing styles, Smash 4 just has more. Because of this, there's a lot more to learn if you want to get anywhere competitively. I often see the misconception that Smash 4 is more defensive than offensive, but that's just a result of the fact that it's balanced to allow defensive play more than the other Smash games, because like I said, Smash 4 is balanced to support a wider variety of playing styles. Defensive play is more viable, so you have to work harder to learn how to circumvent that. There are a lot of janky things that can happen in this game, so you need to expect the unexpected. I just like the way that all works, so that's why I like Smash 4. If you don't feel the same way about it, that's fine. Just don't hate on a well put together game, much less the people who like it.

Cmman47 · 6日前

Oh good stabs got me covered. This, in my opinion, was a very poorly put together argument and not even close to a solution to the problem. The points he makes in this argument are very specific and isolated and do not cover any of those controversies as a whole. Esam is by no means a representative of melee's finest and picking him will take the place of a more deserving player, I mean there's so few spots as it is. TK (while I love this man) is not at a level where he should be doing top level melee commentary yet (though I think he should one day) but as Tafo said its not really his fault for being chosen and the fact he is getting hate at all is dumb in and of itself. Lastly to think melee kids just save up all their hate for sm4sh you have to be kidding yourself and then to act as if sm4sh is some kind of victim is just as bad. Melee kids have to shovel through the judgements of uncompetitive sm4sh players who can't wrap their head around that people stil play the older game. The majority of smash kids in general are casuals who don't know a lick about competition but think they are in a firm position to judge you. Being someone who plays an older game just puts you in a bottom tier in their mindset and melee kids have to live with those sort of interactions every time a new smash game comes out. My experiences of bitterness are through this, not the competitive scene of sm4sh but the piles of judgements from ignorant players who feel obligated to make fun of your game despite never playing it. Makes you resent there was ever a sequel honestly. Also, hate is not subject from one game to the other hate exists in all communities and all different forms. On the melee side you get trashed for playing characters like sheik, or icies, or puff all the time. Heaven help you if you have an opinion as a "doc kid". Smash 4 same thing: Bayo players, for glory links, mii controversy, or Rosa (poor Dabuz, you guys destroy him). The top two players seem like they are consistently mocked more than praised. Sorry, no. Hate exists in both communities everywhere and the crossover hate is just the lazy kind that people engage in while they wait for Nintendude to take the stage. If you really think the collective will of the melee community is to boss around poor younger brother sm4sh you're looking thought the narrowest of lenses and should update your perspective before you make some sort of one sided police report out of it. Hate is not going to be stopped by making a seperation between the scenes or trying to ignore it. Hate is only stopped by overcoming the ignorance of the ones hating. Having communities where people are knowledgeable in the effort that comes with being good at the game, the quality of the everyday people who have worked to get where they are despite their character choice, and the beauty of having so many players who love their game all in one spot despite the differences. Do I think this will happen, no of course not. But we could be doing a lot better if we didnt make sloppy arguments (yeah I said it) that push specific issues rather than getting to the bottom of the problem at hand. Sorry, (while I like many Omni and Esam videos #callouts) many of these arguments are not as well done as they lead you to believe. While they are posed as something beneficial to the community by "not dodging the issues" many of these videos are biased in a very bad way and ultimately can do as much harm to smash players mind sets as the issues they're addressing. Thanks for trying to bring problems forward and thus fix them but in the end we need a waaaay more intelligent way of going about solving these conflicts than whats being put forward. A voice in the community is a responsibility and I don't think it should be taken as lightly as it seems to be here.

CursedJay · 6日前

U a hoe, but you're right.... in parts.

Sm4sh community isnt totally innocent, and I think you did your point an injustice by not bringing up some examples of that too. The community as a whole needs to fix itself, not just Melee or Sm4sh.

xSuicune · 6日前

The only point I disagree with in the video, like most, is the point about ESAM. My beef with him is not that he's a smash 4 player. My beef is that he's not as good as the other players trying to get in. I didnt want Alex19 or Kage there but they both only play melee; its the same thing. And sure he can probably bop 99% of us but so can any of the people that we are voting for, no? But ESAM would get bopped by all of the other nominated players.

Other than that I agree with most of the points in the video.

DJ_JewJew · 6日前

I agree with him but unfortunately it's not going to change a damn thing.

capcitykings · 6日前

I love how reddit hates censorship but downvotes any opinion that they don't agree with.

Edit: thanks for proving my point Edit 2: well it was being downvoted originally, now it's up again

TheZixion · 6日前

/u/InfernoOmni Love the anime music and the pauses, but its a little loud. Other than that, great video.

Ambler3isme · 6日前

I... Actually agree with this. The hate is just detrimental to the community as a whole, and just makes us look silly to the people who are possibly interested in getting into the game(s).

sumcal · 6日前

Ok, there isn't any kind of a feud between the two communities in all honesty. There's a bit of a feud between ESAM and TK and their people, and the Melee community. And really, the one with TK isn't a huge deal.

People are blowing this out of proportion. I don't think Melee people are mad at Smash 4 players in general because of something ESAM is doing, and most Smash 4 players are smart enough to realize that the Melee players have a point concerning their tournament. I feel as though I'm a part of both communities (have been in tournaments for both), although I primarily play Smash 4, and haven't felt this huge divide in the real life scenes. There's just a few people getting mad on the Internet

LVL1_KFC_Worker · 6日前

I think a big issue is that its unfair that a melee event specifically for melee viewers is having the voting changed by people who dont watch or play melee. The event's main purpose is for viewers, it isn't a player based tournament where lots of people enter, its main purpose is the stream and for the melee stream viewers so its frustrating that its being changed by non-melee players.

HeroTheyCallMe1 · 6日前

This is great, and I agree a lot. Wont change Melee Players mind though I dont think.

ToTheNintieth · 6日前

This sub has a greater proportion of Melee fans, so I doubt any criticism will be well received (look at ESAM's thread). But damn if the online Melee community hasn't done its job in souring me from the game.

Prophet6000 · 6日前

I think this video is a bit unfair the brawl/sm4sh community is just as hateful. The Brawl people go on about how much they love their game nobody stopped them from playing it. They love playing the victim.

JRL2404 · 6日前

I didn't mind TK Breezy's commentary at 5 gods at all.

The one thing that does bother me about TK is his complete lack of acknowledgement of Project M, after support from his PM fanbase basically launched his career as a commentator.

That might be one of the reasons why he gets hate, so don't necessarily confuse the hate for TK with melee elitism. It might be PM salt.

DokkanChampion · 6日前

Just going to repost what I said in the tafokints vid

TkBreezy handled the whole 5 gods situation badly imo. He cherry picked a couple nasty comments that were said to him and basically called out the whole Melee community for it. In reality, most people were stating valid complaints about his commentary and telling him what he can work on for next time but he was to busy blowing up on Twitter to notice those =/ Also, he had the nerve to call us elitist while likewise saying that he wanted to hear absolutely nothing from any documentary kids because he had been playing the game longer than them. Just seemed very hypocritical to say while your busy calling other people elitist. Dude needs to learn how to take criticism and not chalk it down to us just blindly hating on him. Him and EE are the ultimate smash 4 duo but his commentary in melee was lacking hard.

Same situation happened with Sky when he commentated. Everyone just made it seem like a reddit circle jerk when in reality, most people were making valid complains but once again, sky has been here longer than us and were just haters so who cares what we think =/

As for Esam, dudes a clown lol He makes a reddit thread completely bad mouthing the melee community, says he doesn't care for the game a day before he decides to campaign for summit, and then expects every one to just vote for him. His reddit thread basically reads as (Hey guys, I know I said I don't care about melee and I often complain about how toxic you guys are and oh btw, fuck you guys =) but please vote for me for summit because I do things and I'm nice guy!

All in all, I don't doubt that the smash 4 and brawl communities have received some unwarranted hate from the melee community but as of late, it seems like their the only ones who are trying to start drama. Taking valid criticisms and turning them into us hating them because they play smash 4 and plugging their ears to all valid complaints isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

ZackNavySox27 · 6日前

To simply put what others have said. ESAM simply doesn't deserve a spot at a tournament like this. It is a popularity vote, but there are simply just much more capable players, let alone Samus players that i'd love to see over someone who doesn't have focus in the game that he's getting voted in for.

I wonder what will happen? If he attends over other Samus players, then people are going to be insanely salty when they see him over hugs, duck or plup

twin_flight · 6日前

I'm glad at the end, Omni says things to Smash 4 as well. Disagreements and arguments are more often than not two-sided (but I'd rather not sweep an overwhelmingly large amount of people under any single label, ex: "the melee community" or "the smash 4 community" when there's really only a handful that are TRULY out of hand, and then a handful of others who are maybe a little less out of hand)

Anyways, remember to sort comments by controversial. More fun that way.

Red_Ryu · 6日前

The comments here are kind of Gross.

ESAM is getting in because he has voters and he met the qualifications. Ones that were set up because Melee Hell almost got in a players just because he was named "mememan" Did he luck out at BigHouse? Yes but he still fit the requirements and has a backing. Yes I know of his reddit post here, not worded the best even I agree on that but the hate for him was long before he even posted.

TK got pissed on even before he started commentating and when he did he improved over the course of the weekend. He stepped down because of how toxic people were being to him.

D1 gets a ton of unwarranted hate. Critique is one thing, bashing on him because he commentates Smash 4 sometimes is bullshit.

Not everyone is like that in the melee community. I know a ton of people who are kind and very welcoming in Wisconsin and Illinois of all communities.

But I also have had shoes thrown at me when I was playing Brawl at a friendly set-up one year at APEX with people booing us for not playing Melee or Project M at the time.

This video is spot on with a lot of the hate that honestly mostly does come from the Melee community. Yes there is some from others like Smash 4, Brawl back in the day and Project M. It's never been to the degree it has been with Melee over the past decade.

Just like the video said, set an example and tell people to knock it off while also understanding where the frustration is coming from.

I get it with these situations, why people do not want ESAM at mash summit. Don't tell him to jump off a bridge, get cancer or "go back to tr4sh".

Be respectful to each other, Omni is right that on side has a lot of hate they sent to other communities within smash. Recent events have shown this more and more, but we can be better than that.

Do what he said at the end, forgive and put down stuff that is toxic.

InfernoOmni · 6日前

Thanks for making this thread but I don't expect it to see the light of day here.

SuperMurabitoBros · 6日前

Some people of the melee community is a big part of why I stopped dabbling with them way back when, it might be cooler now, but I really don't have the time for the game anymore.

StitchTheTurnip · 6日前

Omni seems obnoxious as fuck.

RealestPlayer · 6日前

Melee's community is probably the most toxic smash community out there. This is coming from my personal experience on anther's ladder.

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