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Uncovering the Truth about Last Stand Gamers - (RAVRIC)MEDIA (youtube.com)

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]Girlinhat 28ポイント29ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did anyone think he was actually making new content? I mean he comes up every like 2-3 days with a brand new system. Sometimes it's sensor guidance, sometimes it's wheel trickery, sometimes it's piston magic. He puts out a LOT of these very nice systems that aren't related to each other at all. I never really imagined that it was all his original ideas.

I am surprised by how blatant the ripping off is. I thought he saw things and liked them, I didn't realize it was often just direct copy-paste.

[–]Mr-Maguffin 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

I don't get why he would do this, if he was 100% honest about all of this he'd still have the same amount of subscribers he does now, it was his personality that drew me toward his videos not his building skills.
Also what does this mean for Sage,Tazoo,and Scott?

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

So far as the lack of actual links or credit toward the creators of the workshop content he used as "inspiration," I think it might be closer to absentmindedness than something more underhanded.

Some of the others.. seem a little bit less like he simply forgot and more that he hoped nobody would notice.

[–]Onmytablet2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

I know ive seen tons of his videos where he says: "hey, i found this thing on the workshop, and want to show it to you".

If this were some kind of tinfoil hat conspiracy, i dont think he would have shared that stuff. I suspect its just a case of him playing the game the way we all do, which includes using the workshop, and integrating stuff people share on the shop into our own play.

Im on mobile, so cant watch OPs video right now, but i will later to try and be objective. At the moment, it sounds like some little kid being a shit about sharing legos.

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Although I've never really made anything worth uploading to the Steam workshop, I can totally understand how it must feel when someone puts a bunch of effort into creating something, and then seeing their creation being shown as the work of someone else.

On the other hand, I did try (unsuccessfully, several times) to make a Space Engineers-themed blog, and I also know how it can feel to be under some self-imposed pressure to come up with SOMETHING to show off on a particular day, and using the Steam workshop for inspiration toward that end could totally have been just that.

To be honest, the whole situation is sort of a weird one. It's hard to know if it was intentional or not. But, as another person in this thread mentioned, the best thing Aaron / LSG could do in response would be to go through every single video he's made and make sure they attribute the creators, and that they have working links.

[–]the_n00b 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

"I haven't actually looked at the video but based on the title I'm going to make an assumption and post it"

Seriously, do you think before you post? Watch the video.

[–]Onmytablet2 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Cant right now, i will later... but my opinion at the moment isnt based on the title.

Its based on other comments, and as i said in my comment, he mentions stuff in the workshop quite often. Not something he would do if he were tryi g to take credit for everything.

Plus the value LSG provides is in video editing and production. If some other dude wants credit, they should make their own youtube videos.

I dont believe anyone can copyright workshop content anyways.

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not really about copyrights or wanting to monetize their creations. It's about wanting credit where credit is due.

If you took some design I had posted on the workshop, moved the thruster nacelles further forward on the hull, repainted it and told people that you spent a lot of time working on the design, I think it wouldn't be wrong of me to be a little upset.

[–]venom415594 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's right, if your going to do a review on something someone made you say this is (insert creation name) by (insert playername), and if you modify it so what, you still have to say it was originally created by mr (insert name here). I want to do reviews on creations because there are so many good ones, but I thought crediting the original creator was just common sense and common courtesy

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Part of me thinks he really does mean to add credit, especially with the number of times I've heard him say that links will be in the description below his videos.

But then I see how many times he's said that and then not posted the links as suggested, or when he entirely glosses over giving credit to the actual creators, and it starts to make me wonder..

The worst part is that it feels like Aaron is a big part of why I'm even here on this subreddit. It wasn't until I saw the first two videos from the Survival Mode series he began with EctoSage that I went to Steam and finally bought the game. To have all of this come to light now and start casting doubts about his authenticity is.. strangely uncomfortable.

[–]Onmytablet2 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess...but its such a completely petty thing to get upset about.again, i compare it to children arguing over legos.

"I made that."

"Nu-uh! I made it!"

"MMMMMOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!"

Who gives a shit? These are toys, not actual spacecraft blueprints.

[–]deedlede2222 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sage clearly build his own stuff, because it all looks the same haha.

[–]LEmp_Evrey 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

And I really like his accent.

[–]thatgoat-guy 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Can't watch the video, anyone got a good tl;dr?

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well-known player of Space Engineers who puts up lots of concept videos for different ships and designs he's been working on.. turns out quite a lot of it has been potentially lifted from other people's videos and designs.

[–]thatgoat-guy 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow, what an ass.

[–]SteveDart 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

In his defense, most of the designs he's using have been gathered off the workshop (free for anyone to use). The pitchforks are coming out about him not crediting the creators, and generally implying he did most of the legwork.

[–]Rdav3*Purveyor of fine PMW scripts est 2076* 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

While I can see and am quite simply stunned by the lack of references and acknowledgements in his videos, I believe his error was oversight of proper and effective citation rather than directly implying, or believing that his creations were entirely of his own design.

The guy is putting out 3, maybe 4 videos a week, along with (I presume) a full time job. Anyone with a busy schedule knows how easy forgetting things can be, especially if it's a 'I'll do it after I upload' type of thing as workshop links sometimes are.

Either way, I un-subbed until he checks his links. I'm rather mad at myself for not realising this sooner. Improper referencing and large scale conflict such as this is a sure as hell way to kill off what is a great community, everyone needs to do their bit in stopping them. It should have never got to the point where Ravric needed to make this video.

[–]Mr-Maguffin 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh... well this sucks.

[–]Padla123 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hey Ravric. First of all nice video, I was suprised to see it and your evidence looks pretty solid. While I agree that the practice is not admirable to say the least, I am pretty sure that creators of workshop content, and ESPECIALLY blueprints (as opposed to mods), do not really hold any proprety rights on them like other intellectual or creative proprety. By releasing item on workshop you allow its free use and distribution which basically means that anyone can copy and reproduce it, and yes, anyone can make money of it if they so desire through a youtube channel for example. In fact I have seen many videos simply "reviewing" popular items on workshop. Many users do it including LastStandGamers. Is it an honest practice? Not 100% but unfortunately it falls within "fair use" definition. Is it different from other subjects on youtube where people repost content as their own? No. It is unfair however to people who genuinely work hard to create outstanding things in SE. People like you or Whiplash141 for example are the actual masters and I have always seen LSG as Space Engineers news channel and nothing more. Personally, I will unsubscribe from channel to try and discourage this behaviour. I would rather have LSG just review other people's creations and clearly state that they are taken from workshop. This would not change the fact that he would be monetizing other people's creations however.

/EDIT/ Ok apparently people see my comment as a statement in LSG's defense. I am not defending his behaviour. I am just stating that unfortunately what he does and earns money from, seems to be legal, although dishonest towards SE community.

[–]Enigmius1 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not about whether or not anyone holds proprietary rights. It's about holding the community accountable to basic standards of respect and decency. People can get away with a LOT of horrible things if the only thing restraining them is the written law, but our society isn't governed exclusively by written laws.

To argue this away on simply legal grounds is to miss 90% of the picture.

[–]Sleepyhead5 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ravic makes no mention of monetization being a problem. Just that WSG claims others work as his own and almost never includes links to the steam workshop of the copied designs. If he framed his work as mod/design showcases I don't think anyone would have any issue with him.

[–]Padla123 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are right Ravric does not metnion it, but it does add an unpleasant dimension to all this. LSG channel currently has close to 367k subscribers. I am pretty sure channel of that size is making some some amount of money.

[–]LEmp_Evrey 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is a different thing making money with review videos, giving the content producers the credit they deserve, as e.g. Captain Shack does, or making money with show-off videos of "inspired" stuff with no references at all, maybe broken links.

I would have no issue with LSG making a video like this:

  • Hey guys, this is some stuff I found on the Workshop.
  • It is from John Doe - working link here.
  • And this 80% of the video is about my modified version, where I changed the design to be more to my liking or where I combined this with that do do whatevs.

[–]ZimbabweBankOfficial 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I knew he took things from the workshop, I though everyone knew. I meant to correct him once

[–]Conradian 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not gonna judge anyone yet. As with every dispute there is always two sides to the story.

As someone who knows Arron, I don't think he's as evil, manipulative, and openly deceptive as your video paints.

[–]ECM_SUPREMEvalidpoint 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

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[–]VuelheringKilling trolls by upvoting threads 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay, Ravric, make us a pitchfork launcher. Maybe he'll feature it with an apology :)

[–]venom415594 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

someone please make that....

[–]BradPhusionthe Gravity Guy! 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

To be fair, this could even go as far back to some of the gravitational stuff created years ago, though I'm not really one to stick my finger in this type of stuff. Probably was just coincidence and bad timing as the initial ideas weren't so complicated.

[–]Ravric 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yea I did not want to stick my finger in this either. But after seeing others and myself constantly having their stuff shown with little to no credit and what that does to the creator. I think whatever risk I'm taking is worth it.

[–]LEmp_Evrey 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I always wondered how it could be possible that one person had the time to build stuff like the "sand worm", weekly. Now I have the answer. Thanks for that!

By the way: I really like your stuff. Especially that big dawnstar rover is sexy.

[–]BradPhusionthe Gravity Guy! 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I know how you feel. I also wanted to say stuff back then, but everyone liked LSG, and I couldn't really hold a grudge. I just let it be and ignored him for the last few years. Surprised to see this video, honestly, as I've been near completely in the dark.

You honestly don't have too much risk here. The only things he can do is take down the video, which I think honestly works in your favor, despite the potential disadvantages of getting a strike against your channel. That being said, if that happens, it can be disputed as criticism, which is legal under the free use laws.

[–]nomnivore1Jupiter Mining Corporation-- Field Technician 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll give you the vehicles and what not, which are clearly modified and not original, but I think you're overreacting to some of the concepts he's using. If I see a type of door or tracking mechanism, and I want to use it on my ship, I'm gonna use it. Granted, he should have cited those mechanisms, but a whole lot of people are building tracking missiles, that's not a totally original thing. In addition to this, modifying workshop vehicles isn't taboo, and he did provide some links. Have you talked to LSG about this, maybe told him his videos are missing links? If it was an accident, and he forgot to link it, you may have just started drama for no reason.

[–]dainwscifi scribbler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate to jump in here... but yes, while there are a lot of sensor-based tracking 'follow' drones now, at the point in time where he posted that video, he was literally the second person to post one. He pretty much stole the prototype / POC another person posted, prettied it up, and sold it as his idea.

I think many of us saw this happen, and just let it slide, because when sensor-driven drones hit the community, they sort of blew up (pun intended) and we were all playing with them.

The piston stairs though... those were just a blatant, total ripoff. I was amazed at the time that he didn't credit the original designer, because I was building a ship using the original piston stairs, and LSG's looked so similar, I downloaded it to see how he approached the concept to see if he had improved on it. He hadn't, as far as I could tell. It was identical even to the group and block naming.

For me the piston stairs were really the last straw. He clearly took a lot of ideas from other people, packaged it into a 'helper pack' sort of world, took full credit for it, and then made a video about it - a video he has almost certainly made actual money from. That didn't set well with me at the time, and still doesn't.

[–]Xendofer 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Credit should shown if you use other peoples work, but what about cases of simultaneous independent development? also love your channel

[–]WhiteRhinoPSOEnduring the Void 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Simultaneous independent development could maybe account for some of the evidence in the video, like the homing missile or the wheeled tracking drone, but the rest of it seems pretty damning.

I feel like a bit of a rube for being in such awe of all of the gigantic ships he claims he had been "working on for a while." Back then, I assumed that he simply ate, breathed and slept Space Engineers to account for those creations. Now I see that the time spent was likely closer to an hour or so with copy and paste.

[–]LEmp_Evrey 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair... those lines on the "submarine-like ship" are quite a time-consuming job and they do look great. But that's about the most own work on a workshop thing I've seen in this list.

[–]dainwscifi scribbler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I feel the same way. When I started playing SE, I spent countless hours in awe of these videos.

[–]Enigmius1 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

General concepts can be reasonably attributed to coincidence. Block-by-block duplication of large sections (if not entire grids) is very apparent and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

The tragedy here is that all of the drama around this issue would disappear if the people who are copying or heavily reliant upon the work of others were to give fair and appropriate credit . Personal preference aside, people who aren't showcasing original works or giving clear and proper credit for what they use are doing more harm than good.

[–]BradPhusionthe Gravity Guy! 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, I'm not sure my situation really counts, because there's only really specific ways it could be built, mechanically anyway. Aesthetically it was almost like a copy and paste from the front. Just it was stuck in a building and used solely as a shield, where as mine functioned also as a weapon. Didn't help that his video was only a few days after mine, and this happened for a month or so with several different designs and concepts, which did get on my nerves, but I'm not one to hold grudges.

Like you said, it was a pretty general concept, but first of it's kind at the time, so I was a little upset to hear LSG get all the credit for the 'concept' of it all, and receiving comments about me copying LSG wasn't that thrilling either.

But it is what it is and that was years ago now. No point in me holding angry and grudges about it now :P

[–]nomnivore1Jupiter Mining Corporation-- Field Technician 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think we see a few general concepts here, but all in all I am disappointed in this, only for the lack of credit given. I won't judge someone for modifying existing things to suit their needs, that's how engineering works. But at least give credit where credit is due.

[–]BradPhusionthe Gravity Guy! 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree completely. And when you say you're going to give credit to someone, actually do it. I didn't realize until this video how many times links were neglected or simply non-existent, with only a 'link in the description' as the only information given in the video referencing the creator with no names or details, making it near impossible to actually find the original creator. A sad chuckle was had today.

[–]ColCabbage 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean, yeah, guys kind of a dick, I just find him to not be all that entertaining...

But, just sayin', you can totally change the color of lights with the programmable block. Its just not documented well.

[–]Ravric 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep Whiplash141 just informed me too. I guess it must been a recent change since I checked with quite a few that do awesome stuff with scripts.

Here is a source on the matter: http://forum.keenswh.com/threads/change-light-color.7227949/#post-1285626962

[–]Zaven2110 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always found this guy to be lazy with his videos. One video in particular I remember him "testing" tracked vs wheeled vehicles by barely driving a wheeled vehicle up a smooth slope and then slamming a tracked vehicle into a steep hill, he then claimed wheels win and ended the video there. I at least thought he put effort in to designing things but wow, what a colossal cunt. I guess the youtube fame got to him just as it does with most other youtubers.

[–]HellGate94hell engineer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

oh boy i missed my daily drama

[–]SpetS15 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

it is obvious that he does it just for the views, like, he do videos for the most popular mod, or a showcase for the popular stuff on the workshop at the moment. (maybe I should start to do the same... hey! I did one video about a popular mod today :p)
also at his sub count he doesn't even need to make an effort for the video production. And he already have a fanbase of idiots that will fight for him and spam his videos everywhere like stupid lame asses. In part is good for SE, for the advertising. But maybe not for other small content creators. and just in case, I dont "hate" him, lol. I dont watch his videos anyways :p I feel like he is talking to 5 years old... well, im exaggerating a little now.
this is how youtubers are, views and subs more more moooooreeee money!!! I love you! I really appreciate your support! You are the best subs ever LOVE YOU ALL!!
BULLSHIT! I just want views, subs and money...oops did I said that loud?
you know...
I dont know, I make videos too, but Im not consider myself a youtuber, weird, donno... maybe I am :s I mean, I have been making videos since 2005, and there was no monetization at that moment, is like a hobby for me, or started like that, I think... anyways, there is no way I can make a living with this... unless you can live with $1-$2 per day :/ lols
bye! call me when I make at least $1000
PS1: Love you all!!!
PS2: you all love drama dont you?

[–]deedlede2222 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

You should do voice commentary in your videos! In the few I've seen its just text, and it's hard for me to get engaged.

[–]SpetS15 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

agg Im too shy for commentary, also very basic bad english. and I used text since I started almost :p

[–]deedlede2222 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

:< Okay... I do like your videos though! I've seen them since I started following SE.

[–]dainwscifi scribbler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spets, your sense of humor makes your videos fun - heck, I even watch your Arma videos, and I don't understand anything - except when you say 'WTF' :)

[–]Kesuke 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wonder whether other streamers might just do best to steer clear of commenting on this to be honest... because it does rather come across as sticking the knife in over the number of subs.

This issue is, at 366,000 subs this guy probably is making an appreciable income from the videos, even if its not his main source of money. So when other streamers with 1/100th the number of subs launch attack videos against him, or write negative comments, (however deserved they may, or may not be) they aren't just going after his hobby. They are going after his income, which by extension is the food on his plate and the roof over his head.

We also run the risk of creating a situation where the SE community fragments into groups of bitter fans taking up sides in some imagined rivalry. LSG fans in one corner, SpetS fans in another, SAGE fans in yet another, Ravric and so on... it's just so ePeen it's not worth it.

[–]SpetS15 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I dont see how this can divide a community, youtubers are not the stars here, but the game is.

[–]Kesuke 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree the game is popular in its own right, and the streamers came along after that. But I disagree with how relevant that is.

What about the other youtubers LSG makes videos with... how do they respond to this without getting drawn into it themselves. It's effectively forcing them to either ostracize him as well or, by doing nothing, they are essentially giving their own tacit approval to him. That in turn will extend to their fans.

The point is, when people thinking of playing the game come and checkout this subreddit (as they often do) and find a venomous hate war between different youtubers and their fans it doesn't encourage them to buy into the game... particularly at a time when SE has hit a bit of a stagnant patch, and seems to be really lacking in overall direction.

[–]bluhoneyjust w4sted space 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not sure all people that consider themselves a 'youtuber' can be painted with that brush neccesarily. There is such thing as integrity... But I know some that fit that description defintely.

[–]Morphologis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you, Spets please don't put us all in that category.

[–]-irufushi 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not taking sides here, but the guy has a contract with Machinima. Probably doesn't even want to make videos anymore, but is forced by it's terms to upload X videos per week.

[–]Kesuke 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I pointed out elsewhere this amounts to an attack on part of his livelihood, which is not a straightforward thing. I feel quite conflicted about it. If someone came after my livelihood I think my response would be to go for the jugular... It's not just the guys hobby. He's got 366,000 subs, so I suspect he's making at least some appreciable income from this even if it isn't his main source of revenue. That means going after it isn't just going after someone for plagiarizing others work... it's going after the food on his plate and the roof over his head. It's also worth pointing out that what he has done is not (from what I can tell) copyright infringement... which is essentially a crime. Instead it's plagiarism which is really more of a moral/ethical issue than a matter of legal wrongdoing.

I still think this would have been much better dealt with privately between the two of them, without a public attack video. Supposedly ravric made efforts to contact LSG but whether or not that is true, and to what extent he made LSG aware of his plan to release such a scathing video is also unclear.

My solution for the time being has been to unsubscribe from them both.

[–]Enigmius1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

MCNs don't usually have production quotas. About all they typically require in that regard is to make sure any public videos are monetized, but they can't expect to force anyone to meet upload quotas.

[–]SeukonnenProphet of CLANG 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, that's pretty through and damning. Unsubbed, posted on his Channel Discussion page explaining why.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy fucking shit, guys. He was being lazy about giving full credit and links to the original lego wizards. Big deal. You're acting like he did 9/11. I stole all sorts of code and used it in my radar scripts. I insist you should save some rope for me and hang me as well, and then continue going down the list until everyone is implicated.

Unless this is all tongue-in-cheek, in which case carry on.

[–]alaskafishMain Lead for the RotOSF:Beta Server 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

'Leeeeeeeeets get RIOGHT into the News!"

[–]trebal50 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, it was predictable that this untalented youtuber was copying other people work. In my opinion to use other people work is totally acceptable (if the upload it in the workshop), but always giving credit.

[–]Meow_CaptainArming Kittens Since 2015 - youtube.com/meowcaptain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Impressive work Ravric. We need this type of behavior discouraged. I mean, is it really that hard to simply link in the description?

[–]Not-Churros-Alt-Act 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

TO SHREDS I SAY

[–]SCP106MACgyver (the Halo guy) 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"And his workshop?

to shreds you say..."

[–]deedlede2222 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn...

[–]danielpirat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeess finally. Juicy SE Drama. I waited more than two years for this moment.

[–]ninjabomb333 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Makes me wonder... how many other space engineers youtubers are doing the same thing as lsg.

[–]101m4n 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit 0.0

I always thought it odd that he never explained the details of how "his" ideas work in the videos... Always "kinda track system" or "sorta rotor structure" or what-have-you. Also that he always seemed confused when something goes wrong while showcasing.

But I had no idea he ripped stuff off on this scale...