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Kesha says she's refusing a deal requiring her to say she 'never got raped' (mashable.com)

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[–]ravinglunatic 2312ポイント2313ポイント  (1585子コメント)

We have real courts for this type of thing. Rape isn't meant to be tried in the court of public opinion. It shouldn't be about who believes Kesha and who believes Sony, just the facts as found by a criminal court during a trial.

[–]Enchanted_Bunny 415ポイント416ポイント  (69子コメント)

The problem with a crime like rape is that unless the victim immediately goes to the police after it happens, it is damn-near impossible to prove it. And not too many rape victims are very keen on getting poked and prodded by doctors, including having their vaginas probed and scraped in order to collect enough forensic evidence to put away the rapist. Even if they do, the best forensics can do is prove that sex happened. Whether or not it was consensual is trickier. Yes, the victim may have bruises or defensive wounds, but plenty of people are into kink, BDSM, etc. Most women don't report rapes for those very reasons: they have to undergo a second humiliation of getting examined, a third humiliation of having their story questioned and doubted, and a fourth possible humiliation of their rapist going free due to lack of evidence. Working up the courage to admit you've been raped is a major thing for a lot of women.

If it did happen to Kesha, criminal courts can't do anything at this point. There's no evidence to examine. It's he-said-she-said.

[–]CompZombie 86ポイント87ポイント  (15子コメント)

Not to mention, if she were to give a statement now saying that she lied about the rape claim, she'd be opening herself up to a lawsuit from Dr. Luke for slander.

[–]NewAeon [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Wouldn't that be appropriate if she did lie and slander?

[–]semiURBAN [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes but she's not gonna just willingly incriminate herself..

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      [–]Trap-Bot 1265ポイント1266ポイント  (538子コメント)

      It's not one off report though, it's a trend with this specific individual having allegations leveled at him from several people, not just Ke$ha. People act like she's trying to extort something from a company or individual and in reality, someone is at the least making her uncomfortable and she should have the right to leave.

      Like I know this is going to get downvoted to shit, but have you seen the stats on rape reports and prosecutions (let alone conviction rates)? It's a joke. The system you're talking about fails by design in this area almost invariably. Plus, a violent crime wouldn't release her from her label, it would just get someone else to manage her contract. She was hurt, she wants to leave, let her leave.

      [–]PixyFreakingStix 792ポイント793ポイント  (281子コメント)

      People act like she's trying to extort something from a company or individual and in reality,

      If you've ever wondered why rape victims are so reluctant to come forward, this is a huge reason why. People don't believe you, and they accuse you of just trying to ruin someone's life. It's not just high profile people that deal with this. It's a huge amount of rape victims.

      And on top of that, look at how hard rape is to prove, or even to find evidence of, then look at people's reaction to it when evidence isn't found. The police might say a case is unfounded, but that doesn't mean the allegation was false... but that's how everyone treats it.

      As a rape victim, if you don't have enough evidence, and you come forward, not only do you have to deal with the trauma of being raped, then you have to deal with everyone calling you a manipulative liar. It's awful.

      I don't know if Kesha was actually raped or not, but when this shit happens, it's fucking awful for the victim on two levels.

      edit: What I said really isn't controversial, but I've received like 15 replies already from people either energetically defending this, as though assuming the accuser is a liar makes perfect sense, or just ignoring that that's the biggest part of my argument, and they pretend this just doesn't happen. Seems like that alone makes my point for me...

      [–]PM_ME_2DISAGREEWITHU 313ポイント314ポイント  (43子コメント)

      Even if you do have enough evidence, you may be called a manipulative liar.

      A friend of mine was raped while she was passed out drunk, guy admitted it to her, eventually admitted it to police, his lawyer, and a judge. Just not to his friends. So every time she runs in to someone that knows him, she's accused of ruining his life. They ask why she'd lie about that. It's pretty ducked up

      [–]alderaan_never4get 31ポイント32ポイント  (14子コメント)

      If you get chance, read Missoula by Jon Krakauer.

      [–]MGLLN [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

      Read some of the synopsis on Amazon:

      The Department of Justice investigated 350 sexual assaults reported to the Missoula police between January 2008 and May 2012. Few of these assaults were properly handled by either the university or local authorities. In this, Missoula is also typical.

      A DOJ report released in December of 2014 estimates 110,000 women between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four are raped each year. Krakauer’s devastating narrative of what happened in Missoula makes clear why rape is so prevalent on American campuses, and why rape victims are so reluctant to report assault.

      Yikes

      [–]nixonrichard [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      Rape is prevalent on American campuses?

      I thought women on college campuses were actually safer than women in their same age group off campus.

      [–]alderaan_never4get [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Reading it is infuriating.

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            [–]nooooou 135ポイント136ポイント  (12子コメント)

            anyone entering the court system for anything, civil, or criminal, is dragged through hell. I have been defrauded of $500,000. I sued, I sat there during a deposition where the guy who did it sat there and lied under oath with a straight face. $500k is devastating to lose. It is extremely traumatic to sit there and not just fucking jump over the table and start bashing the fucker's head against the wall while he and his lawyer smugly lie and mock you.

            So yeah, it's traumatic.

            But if you want justice, you need to pay this extra price. I went through anguish for six years because of this fraud. It ruined my ability to sleep and destroyed the quality of my life due to the stress and the actions of the defense. Not even getting to the point of the money that was taken.

            And all the while having to shell out additional money for my own lawyer, experts, depositions, etc. The bleeding continues.

            Yes it's horrific to be raped and to be fed into this system.

            But the suffering of the victim is necessary in order for the system to work, that is the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. This guy and his company defrauded me and he mostly got away with it.

            But if it were easy to target people because accusers gained so much shelter that there was nothing to lose in making accusations, then there would be a lineup of infinite numbers of people fingering others to throw them into litigation hell. I understand that and I'm not angry at the system for what I went through.

            At the end there is no easy solution, there is no free lunch, there is no magic spell we can cast to pull justice and truth out of thin air so that innocents can be protected from false accusation and victims can be protected against further pain and suffering from pushing their case through the courts.

            It sucks. Any attempts to shelter potential victims to an extreme will just swing the pendulum so far over that the system will be used as a weapon to extort from innocents. This is because there are enough fucking assholes out there that no matter how it's set up, they will game it to their own benefit.

            [–]Axon14 48ポイント49ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Speaking as a plaintiff's attorney, i can confirm that my plaintiffs often feel like they are the ones on trial. Corporations hire or hold on to people that can handle litigation. During a rape trial, it's even worse. I've done defense work, and I'm often offered the most money by far to handle rape accusations (they are rare cases, and it can be life ruining, so the stakes are high). I have only done it once when I knew the individual was innocent because of film of the incident (no intercourse actually took place, it was an argument between an on again off again couple). Otherwise I will not do it.

            [–]megafartcloud 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

            This guy and his company defrauded me and he mostly got away with it.

            wut? he didn't have to pay you back? how were you defrauded. I'm sorry about that.

            [–]Doubleclit [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

            The courts are stressful to everyone, but it's a bit different when all of your friends and family and acquaintances doubt you or call you a liar. That's something almost unique to rape survivors.

            [–]timbaalake [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I just don't understand why family would not support a related victim. idk, maybe my own just isn't messed up, but the only reason I can find family being unsupportive is if the sexual harassment happened between family members, which is arguably worse for family to choose sides on favorites.

            [–]Roastbeef3 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            It goes for both rape survivors and the falsely accused. Having your closest friends and family cut off all contact with you and call you the worst possible thing is modern society is terrible as well. Just like how being call a manipulative liar is terrible.

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                [–]DragonzordRanger 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                But the average reluctant rape victim wasn't also in court testifying that the rapist wasn't a rapist. This woman either is or was at least aiding in extortion at one point

                [–]Arakin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                Kesha and her mother both said under oath that nothing happened...

                [–]Kingofthegnome [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                The main issue is that she is on record saying it never happened in a sworn testimony in a case a few years ago.

                Sony is not allegedly saying rape is okay but they are whiling to let her go off her contract to stop the negative press.

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                  [–]TheresanotherJoswell 43ポイント44ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  The system you're talking about fails by design in this area almost invariably.

                  The system is set up to make it incredibly difficult to take away the liberty of an individual unless there is very substantial evidence that they committed a crime.

                  In its role, it is succeeding.

                  [–]cubs1917 20ポイント21ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  Considering what you said then it doubles down that the court is the best place to handle this and not instagram or public opinion.

                  Just look at the Duke case - public opinion would have convicted innocent people.

                  [–]Somefive 56ポイント57ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  I disagree, but +1 because it is to some extent, reasonable.

                  Statistically, she isn't lying, but she previously claimed under oath that she wasn't raped.

                  That has ruined her credibility, and she doesn't have enough evidence (yet), to prove she was raped.

                  I think unless there's some problem if people can make an allegation under oath, then alter their statement completely in a bid to get released from her contract.

                  [–]Dyfar 88ポイント89ポイント  (15子コメント)

                  several people said he was creepy not that he raped them.

                  [–]emily_waves 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  I've only heard others complain he was a jerk, or that he was a terrible person. I haven't seen anyone else say they were raped or assaulted by him. Can you post a link to that?

                  And people are not saying she's trying to get money from them, rather, she's trying to get out of a bad contract after she blew up and became super successful. Trying to get out of a contact is a huge deal, as it completely gives her back control over her music, despite a major label and producers playing a big role in her bcoming a hit.

                  And I'm sorry, her being hurt or upset -- is not enough to get out of a contract. If she was actually raped, then that's a whole different discussion. But people keep arguing that she should be let out of her contract regardless because she's unhappy and doesn't want to work with x people anymore. But that's not a valid reason to break up a contract. That would make all contracts worthless, as anyone at any time, could argue they are no longer happy or want to work with a company anymore.

                  So whether she was actually raped or not, is a major factor as to whether her contract should be terminated. But as it stands now, we hav no proof. Only the public deciding he's a rapist.

                  [–]selassiepickney 54ポイント55ポイント  (18子コメント)

                  It's not one off report though, it's a trend with this specific individual having allegations leveled at him from several people, not just Ke$ha.

                  You're trying to falsely imply that he's been accused of rape by others when this is far from the truth.

                  someone is at the least making her uncomfortable and she should have the right to leave.

                  She signed a contract and Sony invested millions in her career. She got the value from the contract and doesn't want Sony to get any return on their investment.

                  [–]DamagedHells [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  Kesha's lawyer claimed he raped Lady Gaga, which her camp immediately dismissed.

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                    [–]_Aj_ 22ポイント23ポイント  (11子コメント)

                    As someone with experience in the social work field, I'm with you all the way. It's appalling. Most of the time people say nothing, because they feel they won't be believed anyway, then when they finally do get the courage to press charges they meet a backlash of all sorts of arguments and disbelief if it's public like this, or simply the difficulty of having to recount in detail all matters relating to it for police reports.

                    Yeah, it's difficult when there's a lack of evidence, but it needs to be treated no differently than any other violent crime like a stabbing. This "just doing it for profit" bullshit is wrong and isnt ok to be argued at all.

                    Edit for clarity:

                    • I say, using the "doing it for money" argument is not ok to default to. As it seems widely to be a first reaction. Mix one famous person with someone else, add one case of rape, and suddenly it's all just a put on.

                    That's not an ok argument, and of course that's what the media will throw around because that stirs it up more.

                    It's exactly the first thing people said about the Cosby case. "oh she just wants his money" then more came forward and the view just expanded to other girls jumping on the wagon, until there was even more evidence, and scores of allegations. And even now you can tell there's still a viewpoint out there that he's a victim.

                    Regardless of his guilt or innocence, you can see there is already a massive skew against rape cases, so while it is definitely possible she's a full on liar, it's wrong to treat it like that probably is the case.

                    [–]Pires007 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    What's the problem if someone else is managing her contract though, it seems like she's just trying to get out of the contract. Sony said that she can work with someone else. She never has to see Dr. Luke ever again at Sony if she doesn't want too.

                    [–]eagletrance 35ポイント36ポイント  (17子コメント)

                    If I wanted to leave my work contract and accused my boss of rape, reported it but they found there was no evidence of it.

                    Should I still be able to leave the work contract?

                    Negating the fact she is famous, no one else would get the privilege of leaving their contract.

                    Maybe you could be put to work with other people to ease the situation but that's it.

                    You can't assume any wrong doing on that guys behalf because there are numerous allegations unless they are proven.

                    [–]networknewjack 47ポイント48ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    In reality, you'd both be terminated most likely.

                    [–]jwktiger 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    because most people are very expendable at their job.

                    A popular singer/performer is not expendable and exceptionally valuable which is why the record wants to keep her

                    [–]networknewjack 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    True. I'm just saying - the situation isn't the normal corporate BS. Normally, you totally could levy any sort of misconduct charge and the situation would likely get you both terminated. So all these bleeding hearts here with the "omg but its rape" shit need to calm their tits. If all it takes to get out of a contract like this is to be like "rape", we'd see rape charges a plenty any time an entertainer takes off.

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                      [–]levir 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

                      If I wanna quit I hand in my resignation and in 3 months at the most I am done working for that company.

                      [–]xanatos451 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

                      Except that you can't work in that field again until the contract expires.

                      [–]turn30left 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Also in a deposition you said your boss never raped you.

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                        [–]paragonofcynicism 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

                        People act like she's trying to extort something from a company or individual and in reality, someone is at the least making her uncomfortable and she should have the right to leave.

                        Except she has refused any deals where she works with a different producer and never has to see that guy professionally again. So clearly her motivation is not just "this guy makes me uncomfortable." It's, I don't want to fulfill my contractual obligations and will do anything I can to get out of it no matter how deceitful.

                        [–]ythms [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        All deals in which she would still be working in his business, not sony, she would still be working in kasz money, which is DJ Luke's company. Kesha has stated many times she'd be happy to work with sony under a new producer but as her contract isn't with sony, there's not much they can do.

                        [–]g74b90239bfj40pql [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Maybe a person who was raped while working within an organization wants to not work within that organization anymore?

                        [–]lifeonthegrid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        "You don't have to work with your rapist, just for him! What's the big deal?"

                        [–]runwithjames [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                        It would be a different producer but still under his label (Which is a subsidiary of Sony), so while she doesn't have to work with him she would be making him money, which is an understandable objection.

                        [–]Kavis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        There couldn't possibly be any other reasons, hm? Like being physically near him, even if she's not working with him. Or having lost faith in a company that's done virtually nothing to protect their "star" from being assaulted. It has to be that she's a money-grubbing liar.

                        Username is pretty relevant, yeah.

                        [–]satan-repents 49ポイント50ポイント  (74子コメント)

                        I missed the part where you said that any of those allegations were proven in a criminal trial.

                        [–]afraidofflying 26ポイント27ポイント  (10子コメント)

                        but have you seen the stats on rape reports and prosecutions (let alone conviction rates)? It's a joke. The system you're talking about fails by design in this area almost invariably.

                        Here is the part where he talks about that.

                        [–]Phokus1983 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                        Virtually every single rape accusation that has turned into a media sensation has turned out to be false. Duke Lacrosse. Tawana Brawley. Connor Oberst. The President of the Oxford Union. UVA. Jian Ghomeshi.

                        That last one is a case where THREE women conspired to lie to the government to try to take down a celebrity with a rape accusation in court. They lost horribly. Is that a failure of the system?

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                          [–]AHucs 28ポイント29ポイント  (21子コメント)

                          These allegations getting proven are the basis for sending people to jail. Just because somebody isn't found guilty doesn't mean people are prohibited from having an opinion.

                          [–]SlowDayatWork 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Rape isn't meant to be tried in the court of public opinion

                          You just took this comment thread full circle.

                          [–]cubs1917 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          and on the flip side the court of public opinion can also get the wrong person...aka duke lacrosse

                          [–]lalaland4711 56ポイント57ポイント  (12子コメント)

                          No, but we shouldn't punish innocent people. In my opinion we shouldn't even punish them extrajudicially.

                          And legally you ARE innocent until proven guilty.

                          [–]Bad-luck-throw-away 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          opinions may end in fights or witch hunts

                          Edit: nevermind. was actually reffering to a certain thing. not to have no opinion

                          [–]Supamurb 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Nor does it mean that something didn't happen.

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                              [–]NSYK 8ポイント9ポイント  (13子コメント)

                              Like I know this is going to get downvoted to shit, but have you seen the stats on rape reports and prosecutions (let alone conviction rates)? It's a joke

                              I'd like to see them.

                              [–]TBomberman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Conviction rate will always be less than 1.

                              [–]Lord_dokodo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Just because someone reports a rape doesn't mean that it's automatically rape. The discrepancy between the reports and convictions is because sometimes someone can be accused of rape...when they actually didn't do it gasp

                              [–]climbingbuoys 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              someone is at the least making her uncomfortable and she should have the right to leave.

                              If you could get out of a contract because you feel uncomfortable, contracts would literally be worthless.

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                                [–]Citizen_Snips29 318ポイント319ポイント  (156子コメント)

                                Why is it Reddit only ever seems to have this attitude when the crime is rape?

                                [–]SanguineJackal 42ポイント43ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                When the person testifies prior that the rape never happened, it tends to lend itself to the reaction when they try to press those allegations down the road.

                                Either way, it's the attitude most people take on most crimes? Personal opinions aside, what's been alleged in the court and proven in the court? Otherwise it is nothing more than a "he said she said".

                                [–]badass_panda 156ポイント157ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                Because everyone has this opinion by default about most other crimes.

                                [–]hologramleia 61ポイント62ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                Oh really? During the Casey Anthony trial everyone was just like "yo wait until it's proven in a court of law"?

                                [–]badass_panda 41ポイント42ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                I don't think most people seriously suggested that it shouldn't go to trial or should summarily be judged against Anthony.

                                At any rate, the OJ Simpson trial would be a much better parallel. Even though he looked pretty damn guilty, plenty of people said just that -- "let's see how the court rules."

                                [–]yolosw3g 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                The oj trial was fucked from the beginning. One of the jurors made a black power fist gesture to oj after the verdict.

                                [–]apples_apples_apples 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                Lol. Almost no one was like "let's see how the court rules". Practically the entire country was saying either "oh my god, he so obviously did it" or "OJ would never do something like that. Obviously this is all a frame job by the LAPD." I don't know where you saw these level headed "we'll see" people, but they sure as hell weren't on tv back then.

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                                  [–]Thor_pool 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                  Noones saying dont take rape accusations seriously.

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                                      [–]BadRobin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                      The fuck are you talking about? Redditors are crazy about shit like Making a Murderer and Serial. I actually like the pro-defendant stance of the reddit. Overall can be hypocritical but you are imagining a rape exception to this that doesn't exist. If anything the opposite is true. The public tends to give benefit of the doubt to the defendant for all crimes except sex crimes. That is why it is so important to discuss presumption of innocent in sex crimes.

                                      [–]hallflukai 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                      Hey, that's not true!

                                      Reddit also has this attitude when cops shoot black people.

                                      [–]datapad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                      Hell, when the Charleston church shooting happened the amount of Redditors refusing to acknowledge that it was a hate crime was unsurprising.

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                                        [–]art36 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Contract law is important. We shouldn't encourage a precedent where contracts can be nullified without evidence of any kind.

                                        [–]Sambanisse 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        I think most people have this attitude towards all crimes. Unless they're an idiot.

                                        [–]magus678 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Why is rape somehow excused from absolute baseline levels of rigor?

                                        [–]PM_ME_DEAD_FASCISTS 48ポイント49ポイント  (44子コメント)

                                        Why is it that people personify reddit as if it is an individual?

                                        [–]GunzGoPew 216ポイント217ポイント  (36子コメント)

                                        Because it has a voting system and the same prevalent ideas are constantly voted to the top.

                                        And someone always replies with your comment. Literally always.

                                        [–]nullCaput 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        And someone always replies with yours as well. It hilarious in an absurd kinda way. As for the prevailing opinion it all depends on the subreddit, you can have completely different results depending on which sub. It also can be one way or the other if a good argument is made on either side of an issue. Sure you will find prevailing opinions and comments that are consistent but that doesn't mean Reddit as a whole takes it.

                                        [–]AODotA 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Because it has a voting system and the same prevalent ideas are constantly voted to the top.

                                        Depending on the time of day. In some time periods more Europeans are present and more eurocentric opinions hit the top, and so on.

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                                              [–]BadgerRush 153ポイント154ポイント  (139子コメント)

                                              That is a very common opinion here in reddit, but it incorrectly mixes two different things: (1) the criminal prosecution of the alleged perpetrator; and (2) the preventive measures meant to guarantee the safety of the alleged victim.

                                              Regarding number 1, you are completely right, a person should only be arrested on a criminal court if it is reasonably proven (with a high burden of proof) that said person did it. In other words, the alleged perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty.

                                              But regarding number 2, it is obligation of all institutions to take measures to guarantee the safety of an alleged victim, even if there is no absolute proof. In this case, a much lower burden of proof should be enough to warrant the institution in case (Sony) to take measures to protect the alleged victim.

                                              So the reaction of the institution Sony Records to the allegations of rape should definitely be tried in the court of public opinion.

                                              [–]BadgerRush 40ポイント41ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Another example for those who didn't understand: If I claim that my boss have tried to kill me repeatedly I would need to satisfy a very high burden of proof to demand his arrest, but on the other hand I would need a much lower burden of proof to demand something like: not being locked in the knifes closet alone with him.

                                              [–]random989898 115ポイント116ポイント  (36子コメント)

                                              That is what happened on colleges campuses. Someone makes a rape accusation and the alleged perpetrator is expelled (edit: or sanctioned) without an investigation or any form of due process. In the name of safety.

                                              That should not be the way any institution functions.

                                              Without knowing all sides of the story (and you almost never get that), you can't really try it in the court of public opinion either.

                                              [–]truemeliorist 57ポイント58ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                              A friend of mine killed himself because of this. He was dating a girl. One night they went from party to party, went back to her room, and had sex. He then supposedly raped her. The next morning, she had sex with him again. Ultimately, the case was thrown out by a judge after she changed her story around 15 different times, also, because most women don't willingly have sex with someone, get raped, and then willingly have sex with their rapist the next morning. She was later arrested for making false reports after making false rape allegations against 3 other people after she went to a different college.

                                              My buddy though, as soon as she made the claim, the college kicked him out. Well, sort of. They told him "he could attend classes" but he "couldn't set foot on campus". So the college didn't have to give him his money back, and he was on hook for the student debt. He also failed every one of his classes because he couldn't take exams, and teachers wouldn't accommodate "a rapist."

                                              His name was provided to all of the local papers, so absolutely everyone treated him as he was 100% guilty. He took a nosedive emotionally and socially, began drinking, got a few DUIs, got jailed, and eventually put a gun in his mouth.

                                              [–]codefreak8 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Protection of an alleged victim should be a priority, but at the same time an alleged attacker needs to maintain his/her rights if they have not received a fair trial. Defending a victim should not be synonymous with attacking an accused attacker.

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                                                  [–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 224ポイント225ポイント  (594子コメント)

                                                  Real courts will ask for evidence and offer the accused a chance to confront their accuser.

                                                  Hence why she's trying this in the court of public opinion where none of that applies.

                                                  [–]domdest 637ポイント638ポイント  (368子コメント)

                                                  So I read the article and it seems that she's being told as part of this deal that she has to apologize and declare publicly that she never got raped.

                                                  Wouldn't that mean the reverse is happening? That the music industry is attempting to make her discredit herself? She's the one refusing to take an action. Nowhere does it say she's "trying this in the court of public opinion".

                                                  Edit: A slew of people claiming she cried wolf below me. Here's the thing and I won't argue this point with each of you: a verdict of "not guilty" is not a verdict of "innocent". It doesn't prove she wasn't raped. It just proves that she can't prove it. So no, her continuing to claim she was raped is not slander.

                                                  [–]soleoblues 62ポイント63ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                  There was no verdict regarding her rape accusation. She filed a motion asking to be released from her contract before the full trial went through. She lost that preliminary motion.

                                                  [–]ting_bu_dong 163ポイント164ポイント  (273子コメント)

                                                  A slew of people claiming she cried wolf below me.

                                                  Welcome to Reddit.

                                                  [–]Iownamovingcastle 66ポイント67ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                  Some of these statements are actually kind of scary to me. I have no idea if Kesha was raped, but the comments that a rape or abuse victim would never initially lie about it or deny it and then later open up about it shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be a rape or abuse victim. And this is common across the board, male or female victims. Like, would these people scream in a friend's face that they are "crying wolf" if they admitted that their parents or boss when they were a teenager raped them and they initially denied it to authorities because they were ashamed? Because apparently that never, ever happens? I guess its mostly the demographic here, but rape is literally the only type of allegation that I see have a high burden of proof. Some rando with a throwaway randomly posting a comment that makes zero sense will be believed and re-quoted like it is the gospel truth, but rape victims? Ah hell no you should have a video that clearly shows you being dragged into an alley-way while screaming no. Anything less=false allegation and liar. I wonder why though. Like, why borderline act like facebook in believing "news" that is posted except for rape? Is it just a gender breakdown?

                                                  [–]enthos 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  It's because the issue of rape is (or perhaps has been made to be; idk) so closely intertwined with gender and therefore identity that males and females have a mutualily antagonistic stake in specific cases turning out in a way that validates their world view.

                                                  Short answer: people are piss fucking poor at being objective and they don't even realize it.

                                                  [–]Neglectful_Stranger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  Pretty much. Rape has been politicized to the point that if someone is guilty or innocent rarely matters, people are just scrambling over themselves to prove their 'side' right.

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                                                    [–]Deckard_Didnt_Die 108ポイント109ポイント  (228子コメント)

                                                    Reddit: where rape only happened if there is hard evidence. Don't get me wrong, false rape accusations are a thing. However, only about 2% of rape accusations are false yo. For every one girl that falsely claims rape I'd be willing to bet there are 5 that have actually been raped but don't have the necessary evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt/ preponderance of evidence. But what am I saying. Male rights!

                                                    Edit 2: here is the link. It's actually Stanford citing an FBI statistic http://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

                                                    [–]T3hSwagman 29ポイント30ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                    But you do need hard evidence, for every crime that carries as serious a consequence as rape. It's just an incredibly unfortunate circumstance that the evidence from a rape has an expiration date.

                                                    I'm 100% for punishing rapists but we can't just start taking someone crying in court saying he/she did it as admissible evidence.

                                                    [–]ElBomberoLoco 63ポイント64ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                    For every one girl that falsely claims rape I'd be willing to bet there are 5 that have actually been raped but don't have the necessary evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt/ preponderance of evidence.

                                                    And that's not even mentioning that such a high percentage of rapes aren't even reported.

                                                    "We can't prove in a court of law that you were raped" =/= "You weren't raped."

                                                    [–]Billy-Bryant 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    See this argument is ridiculous to bring up because it's impossible to say how many cases aren't reported since you know, they weren't reported. It's just as likely that a 95% of all cases aren't reported as it is 0% of all cases aren't reported. To know for sure, those cases would have to be reported, at which point they wouldn't count anymore.

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                                                      [–]thisdesignup 44ポイント45ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                      2% of rape accusations are false

                                                      What's possibility of a false positive? Wouldn't this only account for those that were proven false and not those that were false but considered true?

                                                      [–]FirDouglas 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      It also only accounts for cases in which the investigating body determined that the allegation is false. If you made an allegation that was false and the police investigated it and didn't find any evidence of a crime, they probably wouldn't turn around and investigate you to see if you willfully made a false report unless your allegation is so absurd that they have to.

                                                      It's essentially a bull statistic that has been extrapolated by sociologist who are use to playing fast and loose what statistics.

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                                                        [–]AmoebaNot 56ポイント57ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                        About that 2% of rape accusations are false claim?

                                                        True? Not so much

                                                        "A “false” rape allegation is provably false – meaning, for example, that the accused has a bulletproof alibi or the accuser eventually recants. In many of the cases examined by the authors of the study, there was simply not enough evidence to bring charges. A rape might have occurred, but it might not have. Such cases are not classified as false.

                                                        Specifically, in their analysis of sexual-assault cases at a large university, the authors found that 5.9 percent of cases were provably false. However, 44.9 percent cases “did not proceed” – meaning there was insufficient evidence, the accuser was uncooperative, or the incident did not meet the legal standard of assault. An additional 13.9 percent of cases could not be categorized due to lack of information. That leaves 35.3 percent of cases that led to formal charges or discipline against the accused.

                                                        So there is obviously a lot of uncertainty here, a lot of he-said/she-said when allegations are filed. It would be a mistake to conclude, on the basis of the existing evidence, that nine out of ten assault claims are genuine."

                                                        Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/416536/how-common-are-false-rape-charges-really-jason-richwine

                                                        [–]sidroast 32ポイント33ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                        Got a verifiable source for that 2% statistic?

                                                        [–]ohshitfinances 23ポイント24ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                        http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

                                                        It's between 2 and 10%

                                                        [–]DropStopHoldUp 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        That's a pretty big difference dude

                                                        [–]lol_What_Is_Effort 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        There's a pretty massive difference between 1 in 10 and 1 in 50.

                                                        I also find it funny that people will just pick either the 10% or the 2% figure and state it as fact depending on which side they're trying to argue.

                                                        "False rape never happens" -- Claim 2% of accusations are false

                                                        "False rape accusations happen all the time" -- Claim 10%+ of accusations are false

                                                        [–]nooooou 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        so, it's not 2% as he claimed. Even though he used "yo".

                                                        [–]ohshitfinances [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                        Idk. It could be. Or it could be more. No one can say it's exactly x% because there's so many variables even when dealing with recanted accusations. It's not like counting jelly beans. But it's safe to say that false rape reports is not something that is likely to happen. A 2008 report by the LAPD found that around 78% of false reports are of a "violent stranger attack" (someone jumped out of the bushes with a weapon and raped me), not a report of a specific person known to the victim. It seems like Reddit is more terrified of being accused of rape than it is of rape itself.

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                                                            [–]Enchanted_Bunny 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                            Exactly. Rape is insanely difficult to prove in a criminal court as it is. The victim must immediately go to the police and get a rape kit done, which can be another traumatic experience in of itself. Then, there's the court case, and the trial, and the testimony. It's no wonder than many rape victims simply don't report them when they happen, because what they want to do most is move on with their lives and try to forget it happened. Pressing charges is the opposite of forgetting it happened. It's painful and traumatic and it's little wonder most rape victims don't want to go through that.

                                                            By the time many of them get the courage to report it, there's no more evidence to collect. Even if the victim sucked it up and got a rape kit done, it can't do anything more than prove sex happened, and how particularly violent it was.

                                                            It's a shitty, murky mess legally-speaking. All these people demanding "direct evidence," I ask what exactly do you think she would have? What would evidence of a years-old rape look like to you?

                                                            [–]purplmouse [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                            And you don't even touch upon the enormous number of rape kits that are never tested. They're destroying old kits to make space for new ones and the storage facilities aren't necessarily even good enough to keep the kits from becoming contaminated over time.

                                                            Even if evidence is collected, it may never be tested.

                                                            [–]qthulu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                            So much this. I was raped while blacked out at a party. I woke up to an acquaintance having sex with me and froze in a panic. I pretended to still be asleep. Afterward I was in shock and all I wanted to do was to take hot showers. It took days to even recognize what happened as rape or think about reporting it, and at that point, what evidence did I have? What evidence would I have had even if I had gone to the police right away except that we had sex? Even my friends at the party who deliberately steered him away from me (I was incredibly inebriated and he was following me around suspiciously) earlier in the night didn't think what happened was rape. I didn't say no, right? He really doesn't seem like the type of person who would do that. How do I know I didn't agree to it? It was probably just a drunken sex encounter I regretted, etc.

                                                            So rather than see this person every day, or having to defend myself for what they did by trying to pursue charges with little evidence to speak for the crime, I moved across the country in order to feel "safe."

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                                                              [–]buriedinthyeyes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              Not to mention the fact that part of the math that goes into the false accusation statistic is victims making a mistake when pointing out an unknown assailant from a lineup or some cops labeling an accusation as false because they couldn't gather sufficient evidence. The definition of false accusation isn't very well controlled for in these statistics, so it's hard to tell how many even of that two percent are due to a clerical mislabeling, a bona fide error, or an actual accusation the alleged victim knows is false.

                                                              [–]apple_kicks 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              Reddit: where they say lets not speculated about the accused with lack of evidence, but will speculate about the victim in the case when they have no evidence it was false

                                                              [–]Nick357 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                              I mean it would very difficult to get statistics on false rape accusations vs actual vs non-reported. Perhaps if I were given a grant I could determine a methodology?

                                                              [–]BigAngryDinosaur 29ポイント30ポイント  (34子コメント)

                                                              "false rape" is the reddit boogyman. Thousands of young guys using the internet to learn about how social interaction works believe that it's an actual problem that they'll face someday, kind of like how when we were kids we thought stopping, dropping and rolling when we catch on fire would be a major issue in our adult lives, or quicksand.

                                                              edit: holy cow please stop trying to educate me. My opinion here stands. Learn to have good relationships with people, people.

                                                              [–]Excalibursin 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                              Sharks never really materialized as the threat I treated them as.

                                                              [–]BillClam [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                              Sharks? It was quicksand for me, that shit was everywhere in movies, I even tried putting a whole lot of water on sand once.

                                                              Nothing.

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                                                                [–]WolfdogWizard [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                                Its not that Im scared that it will happen often. Im scared that IF it does happen, I have no way of protecting myself.

                                                                Imagine if I could punish you with the threat of jail/court/expulsion/terminating a contract, just on the basis of my words and no evidence whatsoever. False rape claims, where women are incentivized by damages paid out by the university to fabricate these stories. I mean, people rob banks and threaten their own lives and the lives of others for much smaller payouts. Its not ludacris to think that someone will try to milk the system with a false rape accusation, which will have NO reprecussions at worst. At best, a 1m+ payout and someone you dont like or youre indifferent to will go to jail or be expelled.

                                                                [–]baardvark 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                I am forced to talk to strangers everyday. I am dead in a basememt somewhere. Coincidence? I think not.

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                                                                  [–]CrateDane 12ポイント13ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                  However, only about 2% of rape accusations are false yo.

                                                                  I doubt there are statistics that are accurate and reliable enough to establish that. I'll buy that it's a small minority of accusations, but 2% in particular?

                                                                  [–]beaverteeth92 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  Not to mention that statistics for highly publicized cases are probably quite different.

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                                                                    [–]I_love_bearss 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                    Solid job not being able to make a point without putting down male rights.

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                                                                      [–]cleancutmover 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                      Yes, soon he too will come to hate the color orange.

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                                                                            [–]xLegendarY 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                            Real court will require evidence on her part which doesn't exit. Thus she wants to win this in the court of public opinion.

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                                                                              [–]Anonnymush 512ポイント513ポイント  (74子コメント)

                                                                              I happen to know and love someone who suffered long term sexual assault.

                                                                              They don't always report it. This kind of rape is done with coercion, with the rapist having a serious upper hand- the ability to wreck all of your goals and livelihood, sometimes.

                                                                              [–]Daveed84 178ポイント179ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                              This American Life recently aired a show/podcast that covered the story of a rape victim who claimed she was raped, then recanted the story (which was reported in the news), due to pressure from police and even her own family, then she changed her mind and claimed it was true again. In the end, it was proven that she was in fact raped (the rapist had taken photos of her during the act and kept them). I don't know if Kesha is lying or not but sometimes it's simply, well, not that simple. The story is available in podcast and print form here: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2016/03/print-version-of-anatomy-of-doubt

                                                                              [–]BlackBoxGamers 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                              My S/O Has a past, and I believe her with 100% certainty that the person actually did it. She didn't come forward, so it doesn't matter what I think or what I believe, there was no evidence.

                                                                              This is not about whether we think Sony or Kesha is right or if we think they are telling the truth, this is about what actually happen

                                                                              [–]JerryLupus 170ポイント171ポイント  (54子コメント)

                                                                              Anyone who's saying that she can't be trusted because 1. This is old 2. You think you read somewhere that she said it didn't happen but don't have a source, etc doesn't have the slightest idea of how rape impacts a survivor.

                                                                              Rape isn't about lust or love, it's about abuse, power, and violence.

                                                                              Edit: regarding her deposition, if the lawyer is telling the truth her testimony was made under duress.

                                                                              Dr. Luke repeatedly threatened that if she ever told anyone about these abusive incidents, he would destroy both Ms. Sebert and her entire family.  Specifically, after he drugged and raped Ms. Sebert, Dr. Luke took her down to the beach alone to “have a talk” with her.  He threatened that if she ever mentioned the rape to anyone, he would shut her career down, take away all her publishing and recording rights, and otherwise destroy not only her life but her entire family’s lives as well. 

                                                                              [–]ExcessiveHeadloss 103ポイント104ポイント  (30子コメント)

                                                                              Yet it must be treated as any crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

                                                                              [–]Timmetie 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                              She isn't even asking for him to be convicted. He would remain "innocent".

                                                                              She just wants out of her contract.

                                                                              She is asking permission to quit.

                                                                              [–]TheEmporersFinest 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                              The tone here isn't innocent until proven guilty, it's 'she's a lying bitch until absolutely proven otherwise'

                                                                              Rape is common. It's really common. You never see this insane ocean of skepticism when someone says they were mugged, you don't get legions of people saying they just lost the wallet and said they were mugged, they don't say 'you should have looked after your wallet better', or 'you're just trying to tarnish the reputation of the guy who mugged you' if you actually know the guy but know damn well they've already tossed anything that could trace him back to the crime in a river.

                                                                              She's not actually trying to prosecute him, she wants to not work with him. This isn't a court. Sony not making her work with him isn't sentencing him guilty. He's going to keep being richer and having a better life than almost everyone talking about this. But there's this whole line of bullshit thinking in the comments which is not treating the situation fairly, all the discourse here is loaded with the presumption that she's lying. Happens every time something like this is discussed and it's an obvious function of most of the commentators being men who do not fear rape, but could imagine being falsely accused of rape, and thus always sympathise with the man more than the woman.

                                                                              People whine about how a woman can 'ruin a man's life' by going through lengthy arduous legal proceedings, claiming to have had something humiliating and degrading done to her, sacrifice like a year of her life, face the kind of slurs and shit-slinging we're seeing in these comments if the guy is even a little noteworthy. Meanwhile these same people rarely devote the same hysteria to the fact that a man can easily ruin a woman life by putting his dick in her.

                                                                              It's like everyone here thinks rape is rare like murder, when really it's common like theft.

                                                                              [–]Im_not_weird 30ポイント31ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                              Yes, because this is totally how Reddit treats all criminals and the accused.

                                                                              [–]alwayssunnyinvizima [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                              hypocrisy =/= being wrong

                                                                              [–]Omegalisk 40ポイント41ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                              It is how they should treat them.

                                                                              [–]BobsParrot 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                              Remember Boston.... Innocent until proven guilty seems to be a loose term on Reddit.

                                                                              [–]Malevelonce [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                                              I didn't know that he is all of Reddit and has taken part in every event on Reddit! Good catch /s

                                                                              People need to stop thinking of every Reddit user as sharing the exact same opinion and experiences as the others

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                                                                                [–]RedLetterMemedia 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                So are you saying we should treat this as guilty until proven innocent?

                                                                                [–]Bloodysneeze [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                I don't see how Reddit treats criminals is relevant. Reddit has zero legal authority.

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                                                                                        [–]mattinthecrown 36ポイント37ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                        I like that "Dr. Luke's" legal team refers formally to him as Dr. Luke and to her as Kesha.

                                                                                        [–]kingunderpants 829ポイント830ポイント  (200子コメント)

                                                                                        Found Reddit's worst comment thread.

                                                                                        [–]ben_jl 335ポイント336ポイント  (59子コメント)

                                                                                        "We shouldn't try people in the court of public opinion...but DAE think Kesha's lying?"

                                                                                        [–]Hominid77777 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                        It's interesting when people use this argument with regards to the accused person, but not the accuser.

                                                                                        [–]iHeartApples 39ポイント40ポイント  (34子コメント)

                                                                                        These are the same men's rights people who, if it was a male star coming out saying he was sexually assaulted some time back and only was able to talk about it after some time had passed, would compliment him on his bravery and criticize everyone else. There's some irony here. (I'm not saying men getting raped isn't a problem, it's an incredibly important problem that has traditions of being neglected, but needs to be addressed, like all rape cases)

                                                                                        [–]NotJustinTrottier [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                        B-b-but if an employer prioritizes safety before there's even a verdict, they'll be no better than colleges! Alleged victims should always be forced to continue working alongside the accused, you know, in the name of justice. Separating them would violate the rights of the accused!

                                                                                        /s

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                                                                                          [–]rhubarbtart 255ポイント256ポイント  (52子コメント)

                                                                                          It's on-par with every other involving a woman tbh, and yet I click on it.

                                                                                          [–]GruxKing 76ポイント77ポイント  (34子コメント)

                                                                                          How can this website acknowledge so much depravity in the world, but then if a woman was raped, then it's suddenly 'oh, she clearly lied' ?

                                                                                          In a world where ISIS exists, where Mexican cartels exist, where widespread corruption exists, why does it break plausible deniability that a greasy music exec/writer would rape a woman?

                                                                                          [–]welcometomoonside 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                          Have you ever seen a thread on Reddit about K-Pop? They constantly throw shade on that industry, claiming that the girls inside it are essentially the playthings of the producers who coerce them into performing sexual favors for advancement in the industry. And here we are in America, where the exact same thing seems to be happening, and we call Kesha a liar for it.

                                                                                          Get used to it, this is Reddit.

                                                                                          [–]beywesley [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                          The shit you brought up has nothing to do with this case. ISIS has nothing to do with this story, nor is it even comparable. Two completely different stories with two completely different issues at the heart of it.

                                                                                          It's not that people can't believe it, it's that her track record shows her story isn't consistent. Add to that the financial motivation of breaking out of her restrictive contract with Sony and people begin to question her motives. That doesn't make them women haters. In fact, it makes them more for equality then the people ignoring the fact that she either lied in court or she's lying now. They're looking at her as a person who should be held responsible for her words and actions. She either lied under oath, which she admitted, or she's lying now. Either way, that makes her a known liar. And if she can lie under oath knowing she was committing perjury, why is it so hard to believe she is still lying now?

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                                                                                              [–]brukpocket 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              Have any criminal charges been filed? All that i've seen about this is the contract dispute.

                                                                                              [–]black-ra1n54 528ポイント529ポイント  (363子コメント)

                                                                                              Didn't Kesha already go under oath before and say she wasn't raped?

                                                                                              I think the LA Times wrote an article about it..

                                                                                              [–]FiloRen 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              She did. Her and Dr. Luke were being sued in a civil suit. At the time, it was not in her best interest to disparage her partner in a lawsuit. I realize that doesn't make it OK to lie, but I'm just putting it in context.

                                                                                              It's also hard for a victim to talk about that type of thing. Do you really think the first time someone wants to talk about being raped is in a deposition when it's going to be used against you instead of being used to help you?

                                                                                              [–]Numericaly7 167ポイント168ポイント  (343子コメント)

                                                                                              And it was 5 years ago too. Why wait till now to rehash all this?

                                                                                              [–]RossiRoo 103ポイント104ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                                                              Fake confessions are all too real. Who knows what kinds of pressures she was under.

                                                                                              Relevent This American Life story on one: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt

                                                                                              [–]Neglectful_Stranger [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              You can't expect to recant a fake confession made under oath so easily, though.

                                                                                              [–]reagan2024 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                              Fake confessions are all too real

                                                                                              The same is true about fake accusations.

                                                                                              [–]nick42578 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              That is not a confession. A confession is admitting to a crime. She recanted her allegation.

                                                                                              [–]WeHaveIgnition [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                              That's what I've been thinking about when I hear about Keshas ordeal. When I listened to this episode I was surprised to hear about how badly everyone handled the situation.

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                                                                                                  [–]Wargazm 27ポイント28ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                  Even if she did (I have no idea) that's not as iron-clad as people like to think.

                                                                                                  Listen to this if you're curious to understand why even a "confession" that a rape is made up is not necessarily true.

                                                                                                  http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt

                                                                                                  [–]that-freakin-guy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                  If this is a criminal case and you're trying to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape occurred, if a jury hears a testimony as evidence it'll ruin any chances of them having an abiding conviction that the defendant committed the crime. Jurors are people, and people have opinions. If they already think she's lying because defense brings up that she already said under oath it didn't happen, they can impeach the witness and essentially ruin chances of a successful trial.

                                                                                                  I haven't been keeping up with this case because I don't give a shit really, but I think this is a civil trial so she just needs to prove it beyond a preponderance of the evidence which is like 51% or more in favor of plaintiff. Same situation here.

                                                                                                  I don't think she's going to win personally.

                                                                                                  [–]2d15d7c4 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                  Well wtf is the court supposed to do if she's seemingly done everything to obfuscate the truth of what happened? Not saying it didn't happen, but it seems like she's made anything impossible to prove, so anything at this point it just slander and turning the public against Dr Luke.

                                                                                                  [–]Wargazm [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                  Well wtf is the court supposed to do

                                                                                                  I am not making any statements about how the court should act. for any crime, it is obviously incredibly difficult to come to a fair judgement when there is little objective evidence to go on.

                                                                                                  All I am saying is that a signed affidavit is not necessarily an unassailable beacon of truth. Confessions, searing under oath, etc...all of these things can be colored by subjective factors.

                                                                                                  [–]zakats [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                  I'm not saying you're wrong or making this up but the internet has taught me to be skeptical...

                                                                                                  ...yours is the #3 highest comment with442 upvotes right now based on your not remembering something and I haven't seen a link anywhere to substantiate it.

                                                                                                  I'm not a white knight here, I'm still trying to figure out my opinion on this matter.

                                                                                                  [–]shbro1 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                  IIT: People who also believed Bill Clinton 'did not have sexual relations with that woman'...

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                                                                                                    [–]badass_panda 37ポイント38ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                                    I think anyone who has come to a decision too easily on this issue is heavily biased. Sony has every reason to lie in this situation, as does Kesha. One, or both of them, is.

                                                                                                    The rest is up to the courts.

                                                                                                    [–]BobsParrot 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                    I'm so happy to find this here. You are absolutely correct. Too many comments in this thread are jumping to a conclusion.

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                                                                                                      [–]Conzerak 57ポイント58ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                      She would be wise to let her lawyers do the talking in court.

                                                                                                      [–]westcoastmaximalist 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                      I think I need another Lady Gaga song addressing this. maybe another collaboration with R Kelly and Terry Richardson.

                                                                                                      [–]shane_c[🍰] 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                      R Kelly was acquitted in minutes. Richardson was never charged with anything and has the support of just about everybody thats worked with him.

                                                                                                      [–]UnionJames 72ポイント73ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                                                                      You know how some comment threads make you want to bash your head against a wall? This one makes me want to bash all of your heads against a wall.

                                                                                                      [–]soldoutactivist 129ポイント130ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                                                                      But she already said that in court...

                                                                                                      [–]AWIMBAWAY 53ポイント54ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                      She said that she lied then because she was scared

                                                                                                      [–]Drakox 50ポイント51ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                                                      Hadn't she admitted, under oath, on a previous case to that such rape never happened?

                                                                                                      Edit: yeah she did and now claims to have said that because she was under pressure or was threatened.

                                                                                                      [–]bird_equals_word [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                      Ever since Kesha said this, I put a lot less faith in what she says

                                                                                                      She tells Rolling Stone magazine, "Whenever a man came onto my bus, he had to drop trou, and I took a Polaroid of him, just to emasculate him and make sure he knew he was in the vagina jungle. That's what I call my bus.

                                                                                                      She then wanted to publish these photos. This is not a person who promotes a lot of respect for how they conduct themselves.

                                                                                                      [–]TheBROinBROHIO 67ポイント68ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                                      As usual, Reddit is perfectly willing to accept the issues with the courts administering justice especially when lots of money is involved, unless someone is crying rape.

                                                                                                      [–]Douchebucketchamp 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                      Came in late on this thread. All I see are two types of comments, the first is bitching about how sexist Reddit is for how they're acting in this thread. The other half is refuting evidence found in court.

                                                                                                      [–]Tubaka 18ポイント19ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                      What the actual fuck are you talking about? All of the top comments spouting this same "reddit is pro rape" bullshit that you are.

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                                                                                                        [–]Pengwertle 131ポイント132ポイント  (60子コメント)

                                                                                                        Guys, I found a new subreddit y'all would fit perfectly in!

                                                                                                        /r/theredpill

                                                                                                        [–]donghufferdos 42ポイント43ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                        I'm far from an MRA shitbag and I am still floored by the "pro-Kesha" supporters in this thread. Not for their support of the artist but for their automatic dismissal of anyone asking about evidence, proof, etc. as redpilling MRA womanhating assholes.

                                                                                                        I get that rape is a horrible thing for the people who fall victim, and that certain circumstances may make it harder for a victim to get legal relief, but god damn. I shouldn't be dismissed as a redpill neckbeard because I have the balls to suggest courts need proof.

                                                                                                        [–]Mister_Alucard [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                        All of the top comments are this same annoying comment calling everyone on reddit an asshole, meanwhile these comments are all extremely upvoted by redditors on reddit.

                                                                                                        It's just a giant circlejerk.

                                                                                                        [–]the_ravenous_red [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                        Don't agree with a rape accusation without any evidence? Must be from /r/theredpill. Like seriously, SJW's are out thick in this thread. It's innocent until proven guilty for a reason.

                                                                                                        [–]Wetzilla 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                                        The amount of comments I'm seeing push back on the usual reddit "she's making it up!" comments is actually pretty good. It's a nice change from the usual.

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                                                                                                          [–]dethb0y 53ポイント54ポイント  (42子コメント)

                                                                                                          From a game theory perspective, she has no reason to take that deal.

                                                                                                          1. If she recants, she disillusions the people who supported her, and it weakens her negotiating position with a new contract.

                                                                                                          2. As it stands, her victimhood brings her public attention that helps her case in court, and helps her career. Giving that up would be a hit in and of itself.

                                                                                                          [–]ssjkriccolo 99ポイント100ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                                          Not releasing music is also hurting her career. It's a Catch gazoo

                                                                                                          [–]Ktopotato 27ポイント28ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                          I dunno, I listened to Tik-Tok on YouTube the other day.

                                                                                                          [–]thembi_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                          This is totally the point. You listened to a song that's how old? One that she isn't even getting royalty money for because of the lawsuit.

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                                                                                                              [–]hallflukai 68ポイント69ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                                                                              That's not how game theory works. Game theory analyzes decisions based on possible outcomes, the utility provided by those outcomes, and the likelihood of those outcomes. It also usually involves more than one 'player'.

                                                                                                              But hey maybe it makes strangers on the internet think you're well-read.

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                                                                                                                [–]Arias_the_Goat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                I would like to believe her, but in the video taped deposition where she says she Dr Luke was never sexual towards her, she doesn't look conflicted in any way about her answer.

                                                                                                                [–]madagent [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                Fuck that so hard. She already has money, what else can you offer her besides justice?

                                                                                                                [–]Lukeweizer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                I know she's serious because she took a self-reflecting selfie with her message.

                                                                                                                [–]xlkslb_ccdtks [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                This whole thread is a goddamn nightmare.

                                                                                                                [–]CruxLomar [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                Kesha is an illuminati puppet.

                                                                                                                [–]thelastjuju [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                Maybe I'm just weird.. but if I was raped I'd go to the authorities immediately, lawyer up and take care of that shit. Why does it seem like bragging about being raped via instagram or twitter is the preferred option today?

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