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[–]derleth -17ポイント-16ポイント  (11子コメント)

So he begins by acknowledging that many of the minimum wage workers would be fired. (Keep in mind that's one of derleth's bullet points he called Yglesias a 'moron' for.)

No, he's a moron for assuming it will happen one minute and then forgetting he's assumed it the next. He presumes that teenagers will be able to take part-time jobs at restaurants, forgetting he's assumed that those very jobs will be automated away!

Or in other words, as I read this, some employees would be fired, and some would be promoted, with automation taking over for the lower skilled employees who were fired.

I cannot see one single reason to assume there would be "managers" as such at these automated restaurants. Do you assume the machinery would need constant tending and monitoring? Because that would be a rather big flaw, which the machine-makers would design out.

Freeing up labor by creating a new industry seems like a classic Kaldor-Hicks improvement. I share derleth's skepticism about transfers being made, but I don't think someone is a 'moron' for suggesting it.

He's a moron for suggesting that a recently-fired worker would care one damned bit that someone else got a job.

We have a need both a) for more labor in these sectors, and b) a need for better training and screening. These are not mutually exclusive, or zero-sum. And arguing for things that would reallocate labor to them doesn't imply you want to kill kids unless you're a fucking psychopath.

'Reallocating labor' to childcare is not that simple, and if you think it is, you want untrained people caring for children, which means you want to kill kids. There. Simple enough?

  1. It requires training. This isn't free. It isn't even cheap, if it's any good.
  2. It requires screening. This begins at a criminal record check. It doesn't end there if you don't want to kill kids.
  3. It requires a cultural fit. That is, it requires that people be good with kids, and be psychologically fit to take care of them. This is, I suppose, part of screening, but it really deserves its own point.

So, which of those things do you want to skimp on to shunt all of the fast-food workers into childcare positions?

I think Yglesias thinks that when we make things cheaper, and lower the cost of living, it increases the amount of leisure workers are capable of taking advantage of.

Why would automation necessarily make anything cheaper or lower the cost of living? Are you assuming a progressive taxation scheme, or the absence of collusion in the business world, or both?

[–]Kai_Daigoji[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

I cannot see one single reason to assume there would be "managers" as such at these automated restaurants.

McDonalds today has more automation than it did 50 years ago. It still requires managers. Considering Yglesias specifically didn't say that the restaurant would be entirely automatic, your objection is irrelevant.

He's a moron for suggesting that a recently-fired worker would care one damned bit that someone else got a job.

He never said they would, so this is another uncharitable strawman.

'Reallocating labor' to childcare is not that simple, and if you think it is, you want untrained people caring for children, which means you want to kill kids. There. Simple enough?

There's something fucking wrong with you.

Why would automation necessarily make anything cheaper or lower the cost of living?

This is RIable itself. It lowers the costs of production, which makes things cheaper, which is the same thing as lower the cost of living, or increasing the standard of living.

Are you assuming ... the absence of collusion in the business world...?

I'm assuming competitive markets, yes.

[–]derleth -5ポイント-4ポイント  (9子コメント)

Considering Yglesias specifically didn't say that the restaurant would be entirely automatic

But that's the context into which he's speaking. That's the assumption everyone around him is making in this discussion.

He never said they would, so this is another uncharitable strawman.

My point is that he not only never fully addresses the problem, he never even seems to realize it is a serious problem.

There's something fucking wrong with you.

If you have no argument against my point, just say so.

I'm assuming competitive markets, yes.

Seems like an odd assumption, given the long history of monopolies and/or collusion.

[–]Kai_Daigoji[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (8子コメント)

But that's the context into which he's speaking. That's the assumption everyone around him is making in this discussion.

The only one making that assumption is you.

My point is that he not only never fully addresses the problem, he never even seems to realize it is a serious problem.

He never claimed that a fired worker should care that someone else has a job. So I don't see how it's a serious problem, because you're the one making that argument, not him.

Seems like an odd assumption, given the long history of monopolies and/or collusion.

TIL competitive markets don't exist.

[–]derleth -5ポイント-4ポイント  (7子コメント)

The only one making that assumption is you.

Wrong. Really, bizarrely wrong.

TIL competitive markets don't exist.

Not if the companies involved can help it, no. Not without government regulation.

[–]besttrousers 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Not if the companies involved can help it, no. Not without government regulation.

This is false. See the labor research on search models, as well as the game theory entrant models.

[–]derleth -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

So I should rely on that as opposed to the long history of monopolies around the world?

[–]besttrousers 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes.

That government and monopoly has coexisted is not an especially interesting point.

[–]derleth -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So I'm supposed to ignore empirical fact and trust the models?

You're an Austrian, aren't you?

[–]besttrousers 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mot a all. I'm pointing out that you don't actually have evidence. You're just handwaving about "history".

ie, what's your source of variance in determining whether the existence of government is a causal agent in creation of monopolies.

[–]say_wot_againSend questions to /r/AskEconomics 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is where I wish we still had flair, as besttrousers' old flair was "Then again, I do have you tagged as a Neoclassical/Austrian."

But no, you aren't being asked to ignore empirical fact, you're being asked to listen to it rather than your own priors.