Shin Megami Tensei IV

Here is another topic I have a feeling will get me flamed, but this time I feel more assured in what I perceive. This deals with the themes of the SMT games, so it is not off-topic or flaming. Due to freedom of speech, I am able to express this in a civilized manner, and if this topic gets deleted, it would be bad.

In the SMT games, the Judeo-Christian faiths seem portrayed as being extremist or one-sided. For example, in SMT II you kill YHVH on all the paths, including Law, due to extreme authoritarianism and megalomania. Moreover, SMT I seems similar to IV in that it has an implicit bias for neutrality, and the main neutral hero in I is Lao Tzu. I feel as if Kaneko and other creators of SMT series, find moral dualism and monotheism destructive due to absolutism, hence why YHVH/Ahura Mazda always seems to have an extreme plan that involves unneeded sacrifices. In SMT I, Lao Tzu explains neutrality is the best due to "balance"; it is a central tenet of Japanese Soto and Rinzae Zen, Thervadan Buddhism (called Middle-Way), and it possesses a strong parallel with the Daoist conception of Wu Wei. Moreover, in SMT IV, neutrality also seems to possess more of a preference due to spending 15 more hrs on that path, having a more complete ending, not killing Isabeau, and etc. Moreover, in SMT IV's DLC Archangel I M is alluded to be lying about the archangels. Nuking Japan was YHVH's intention all along and fits well with the previous games. In Nocturne, Lucifer is also portrayed as better than YHVH, due to him not damning the protagonist for his choice, but the Great Will or YHVH express great disapproval, even threatening to have the protagonist endlessly suffer much like Aleph in SMT II. How is this not another stab at the existence of a power-hungry, monotheistic creator God?

I do not think dismissing these criticisms on the basis it is "just a game" is valuable. When Salman Rushdie wrote Satanic Verse, criticizing many problems he saw in Islam, does it make sense to ignore the criticisms on the basis of it just being a "book" or "artwork"? Also, I do not think the games' notions of "right" or "wrong" are entirely* based off one's own perspective of what. I am not an art student, but I feel as if every piece of art is made with some biases from the creators. In SMT games, there is evident criticism against the Judeo-Christian faiths that is not fair to dismiss or ignore. It's not just a game! It is challenging our beliefs in what we find just or fair.

Here are some questions for people who don't agree:

1. If the games were NOT to have criticism against Judeo-Christian faiths, why research in-depth into it? Obviously, the developers put more research into all the theology, and they don't ever seem to portray the angels, YHVH, or any other Law-centered character as benevolent in the main series. I am ignoring DeSu:OC for now.

2. Why do the developers depict Zurvan (from Zoroastrianism) and other Zoroastrian creatures in the older Majin Tensei games the same way as YHVH and his angels? It's due to their criticism against moral dualism and monotheism, for Christianity and Islam are generally agreed to be a carbon-copy of Zoroastrianism, the first monotheistic and morally dualistic religion. They had a reason to implement these mythological figures too.

That's enough for now...

I possibly feel as if these games also possess a Shinto bias due to the fact none of the polytheistic demons possess more authority than the other, trying to control its followers, but I have not spent enough time evaluating this specific claim. I am for certain the Japanese population, on average, is not fond of Christianity, especially considering only S. Korea accepted it.

This will not end well for anyone.

So? It's the most influential religion on the planet. Why would it also not play a similarly central theme in an occult-based game that centers around an amalgamated reality populated by all gods and demons?

Note and tl;dr:

I think the SMT games deconstruct the Judeo-Christian religions and show how it always leads to one-sidedness or absolutism. By breaking it into two extremes, the developers then show the middle or "balance" is the most essential. As a consequence, they give a hint of preference towards Daoism and Buddhism.

They deserve to be criticized.

Quick sidenote: I've enjoyed your topics OP. Topics like these are flame bait only if the beholder chooses to take it beyond the context a poster tries to fit into.

Historically Japan has had a streak against Christianity, dating back to at least the Togukwa Shogunate, when Christianity was purged. Kaneko and friends having a pro-Shinto, anti-Judeo-Christian bias would certainly have precedent. Certainly, the Amatsukami and Kunitsukami have consistently been shown as being oppressed by the Law faction (most notably SMT II, but also the quest in SMT IV when the Amatsu have been crushed and Futotama begs you to revive Amaterasu).

Of course, there are exceptions; in DeSu 1 (Overclocked aside) YHVH is shown to be more benevolent compared to previous incarnations, mostly because the protagonist is not auto-damned. And then there's this unsourced quote floating around from Kaneko stating that YHVH is not THE ultimate evil (too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure flavor enthusiasts have run into it). Still, even when you frame a situation to be as balanced and grey as possible, some shades of black and white are going to bleed in. it's inevitable given how long Megaten has been around.

BTW, who is this Jesus figure from Majin Tensei? I do know there's a Mohammed running around in Ronde.

No offense but considering who made the game(Japanese, which mostly has Buddhism or Shintoism as their religion), I think it's a tad relevant.

Still though, Law deserves better treatment.
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OP tomes, high Res, and skills be damned; I won't use Sorcs.
O furious and insane gods! Send me ten-nay, TWENTY of your finest cakes!

suspiciousdrone posted...

Quick sidenote: I've enjoyed your topics OP. Topics like these are flame bait only if the beholder chooses to take it beyond the context a poster tries to fit into.

Historically Japan has had a streak against Christianity, dating back to at least the Togukwa Shogunate, when Christianity was purged. Kaneko and friends having a pro-Shinto, anti-Judeo-Christian bias would certainly have precedent. Certainly, the Amatsukami and Kunitsukami have consistently been shown as being oppressed by the Law faction (most notably SMT II, but also the quest in SMT IV when the Amatsu have been crushed and Futotama begs you to revive Amaterasu).

Of course, there are exceptions; in DeSu 1 (Overclocked aside) YHVH is shown to be more benevolent compared to previous incarnations, mostly because the protagonist is not auto-damned. And then there's this unsourced quote floating around from Kaneko stating that YHVH is not THE ultimate evil (too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure flavor enthusiasts have run into it). Still, even when you frame a situation to be as balanced and grey as possible, some shades of black and white are going to bleed in. it's inevitable given how long Megaten has been around.

BTW, who is this Jesus figure from Majin Tensei? I do know there's a Mohammed running around in Ronde.

Not sure if I remembered that particular fact correctly, but I remember someone telling me Majin Tensei I or II had it? I'll take that specific part out of my main post.

That's interesting there is a Mohammad figure in Ronde. I'm pretty sure a fatwa is in order (jk!).

I feel as if everything you said lends more support to my primary claim.

Isn't the Law ending pretty much what would happen when Armageddon/The Apocalypse occur in our world? Those of us who were faithful to God and were chosen by him will live in Paradise and the rest of us are just....yeah. Lol

As far as the depiction of Angels and God himself. I took it as angels and demons being one in the same. There are little to no difference between the two in these games. None of us exactly know what angels look like too, so I liked some of Atlus' redesigns. But I enjoyed reading your post TC! An interesting read. :) THIS GAME IS AWESOME