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German veterans of WWII justify the war (youtube.com)

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[–]Tyler4141 19ポイント20ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't see any fault here. Before I sound like a Nazi lover I think its important to understand the context in which these men were speaking. They do not classify themselves as Nazi's but a mere soldiers for the Father Land. Only now looking back on history do we understand the full picture on how evil the Nazi regime was, but at the time it wasn't possible for the Wehrmacht to form the same picture. If I had brothers die by my side in war of course I would justify their deaths for a good cause. Russian Bolshevism was a very powerful threat that would have undermined every stable government at the time.

When Germany attack Russia on the eastern front the SS were tasked with a no mercy policy. In fact, many of the populous of the rural Russia would have fought for their cause due to Stalin's "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" called the Holodomor a few years before the war. However, because Hitler insisted on killing everyone Germany knew if Russia every got the upper hand there would be hell to pay. The Wehrmacht in this video took up the cause to defend their people from a just deserved savage revenge. The common people did not deserve such a wrath but they were the ones that had to endure that revenge and this is a sound justification of good.

Edit: Clarification- German common soldiers (Wehrmacht) were not all Nazi's but served under the Nazi regime.

[–]kingofeggsandwiches 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think that attitude is a mistake. While a common Wehrmacht soldier is clearly nowhere near as guilty than a Nazi party higher up, they still share a amount of guilt on their behalf. It's the difference between between individual and collectively responsibility. Sure as mere conscripted soldiers who loyally fought for their government they are not individually responsible for the events of WW2, they were nonetheless complicit in what happened, and therefore an element of blame is theirs to bear. Some people of that generation accepted this and moved on, others fought against it, doing anything they can to shift blame away from themselves and the people they knew and onto others. These old folks are clearly the latter, and really they should feel some degree of guilt for what they did, even if they know they weren't the direct cause of the atrocities.

[–]zephyrg 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not suggesting that German people of that generation shouldn't feel guilt but what choice did a lot of them have next to being complicit? To speak out was to condemn yourself and possibly your family.

[–]kingofeggsandwiches 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ultimately, it was the German people who collectively supported Hitler, voted for him, took him seriously as a political candidate, fraternised with people who supported him, gave his political views the credibility that made them possible. Germany didn't got from newly formed post WW1 democracy to Nazi fascism overnight, it was a long process whereby Nazism rose, and most Germans of that era were complicit in that process in some sense or form, and for that they should feel some guilt.

Sure, there were some people who opposed Hitler and Nazism, and many of those fled the country or where sent to camps. And sure, there were some people who were secretly anti-Hitler and were unwillingly sent to war to fight for a cause they didn't believe in, but they would be the last to claim the Wehrmacht were honourable or defend their nation's actions. Even they are guilty of allowing themselves to be used as tools for evil ends even if that was unwillingly.

I'm only suggesting an element of guilt and shame for that generation of Germans is appropriate, I'm not saying that everyone is equally guilty or that every German of that era should self-flagellate as if they were the ones pushing Jews in the gas chambers.

[–]challengemoi 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

But Germans didn't do the things you wrote. Hitler's party was very much on the fringes and what little support they had declined before economic and political coincidences helped them surge to prominence.

Moreover, Hitler repeatedly used violence as a means to build and secure power, and he abused his political power in exactly the same way modern politicians do to cement his position.

You wouldn't say of modern French citizens what you're saying of pre-WWII German citizens, even though France has repeatedly extended special powers in the wake of the Paris terrorist attacks.

Nor would you say it of American citizens regarding the unjust wars the past few presidents have waged or the lots of really terrible things various branches of our government have done.

In fact, in at least the case of America after 9/11 there were many protests and those people were often shouted down, told to leave their country of birth, and sometimes even attacked.

And we didn't experience the political consolidation that Hitler forced, the violent suppression of opposition his regime saw, a sort of general homogenization of society his government pushed...nor did we have the extreme economic and social tensions post-WW1-Germany faced, which he capitalized on via his make-happy policies.

So, while the men in the video are clearly a bit deluded, doubly so given the knowledge we have now and the time they've had to learn the truth, it's important to remember details matter and not to paint German citizens of the period with that broad and very wrong brush.

They did not skip happily into their circumstances, but were surrounded by strife and accepted a way out without realizing where it would lead.

Germany as a society has taken on responsibility and shame for what happened, which is to be lauded considering how many ethnic cleanings and genocides are pointedly forgotten or just ignored. I don't think the guys in this video are important - in fact it's almost silly to "blame Germans".

What's really important is picking a point and asking "How did we get here?" Germany didn't wake up and start World War 1 or suddenly decide to take on mass murder. Historical currents took them there. Germany looked to America's sterilization program for scientific validation - would they have continued if their economic and social position had led to a different political reality? World War 2 is often thought of as a continuation of World War 1 - which clearly has an anthropological history that's frequently ignored - you can see World War 1 coming a hundred years or more before it happens. Why were those countries on that trajectory? And if their trajectories were largely set a hundred years before...what about a thousand?

Something terrible happened and throwing this narrow window of Germans under the bus, and all of Germany post-WW2 (though very understandable) is short-sightedness. The Middle-East and the West are on a dismal trajectory and we should have the foresight to address the history and underlying issues rather than waiting for something terrible to happen so we can pick up the pieces afterwards.

[–]Tyler4141 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What my attitude? I was explaining the context that many do not understand since the eastern front is rarely talked about. Yes, I'm sure their not guilt free it was a brutal war where men do terrible things. However, these men said they only fought on the eastern front which is pretty much like Night and Day compared to the western front. You first referred to these people as failing the denazification process when they weren't even Nazi's. They are also not trying to justify Nazi actions only the protection for their country men, women, and children against Russia retaliation for the horrible war crimes the SS committed. The Netherland women was pretty much talking to the wrong Wehrmacht. These men can't really comment properly on what the western front Wehrmacht did or didn't do in which is their only fault in the video. I think we could all understand their position better if we were taught more of the travesties on the eastern front which is where the majority of the dying happened and much less popular than hearing about the western front. Both sides ravaged each other brutally! There was very little mercy given when the Russians came sliding into Germany raping and killing in brutal fashion and this was their justification.

I don't know where your from but here in the U.S we hardly heard of the eastern front. The majority of military deaths happened in the eastern front and at first glorified German engineering and tactics pushing the Russian lines back at an alarming rate. As the war went on the Russians produced some of the best tanks, tactics, and generals of that era (Georgi Zhukov) that in the end won the war.

Here's a link to Hardcore History (Eastern front): http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-series/

[–]aussieredditboy -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

What? Those who spoke out against the regime were imprisoned, executed or worse -- not to mention everyone was subject to constant and modern propagandizing strategies (used in every country that had a leading military part to play in WWII...). If you think the US involvement in WWII, for example, was based on a foundation of nobility and honor... you should probably restudy WWII.

[–]aussieredditboy -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

People ignore the rape of Germany nearing the end of WWII and the fall of Hitler's Germany - where a mass, million(s) of German women were raped (many multiple times) - an ancient war-tactic to avenge, torture and dominate a country (particularly with mixing ethnicities and playing on deep-seated issues with male paternal uncertainty). Then on the other side you have battlegrounds like Russia's Stalingrad, where over a million died in a single city due to the war (and the cold).

[–]Tyler4141 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's crazy in terms of history how that ancient tactic of raping and pillaging large cities was common. This would have been the only thing close enough to those tactics in modern day on that scale! Just reading Genghis Khan shows how he used this tactic in every plundered city. His men would gather families together and pull out the mothers, daughters, and sister and rape them in front of the men. If any of the men cried out or raise a hand they would be killed. A death like this I think would be more merciful then being forced to watch. Russia was like Rocky during the war, they took brutal punches but never got knocked out. Germany punched themselves out not being able to sustain a long war with poor supply lines combined with Russian winters. Not often heard of but Russian springs were equally as terrible producing deep mud preventing truck supplies. I heard of stories of Germans using Russian dead bodies to help provide traction through the mud.