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[–]shatter321 -7ポイント-6ポイント  (19子コメント)

Not saying I agree with the methods. At the core of it the goal was to stop Islamic jihad. It got out of hand and ended up terribly but it wasn't just a greedy land grab

[–]bludgeonerV 10ポイント11ポイント  (18子コメント)

No, it wasn't, their goal was to 'liberate' the Holy Land originally, and by 'liberate' they mean 'we want it, let's take it and kill anyone who gets in our way'.

The Catholics hadn't even been at war with the Muslims in the region, they did claim that assisting the Byzantines was part of their objective but that took a back seat pretty damn fast.

[–]MAGATrump_Convert 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Muslims in the region weren't even Muslim areas in just a relatively short time before the crusades began. Islamism was spreading into Europe like cancer through war and conquest, and it was spreading fast

[–]bludgeonerV 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

A relatively short time? These regions were controlled by Muslims going back as far as the 8th century, almost 400 years before the Crusades began, and Islamisation of this region largely wasn't accomplished through bloodshed but cultural assimilation, it was a rather 'organic' transition.

The first Crusade had absolutely nothing to do with Islamic colonisation of Europe, that didn't happen till the 3rd crusade, and that was against a completely different Islamic dynasty. The first crusade was a militant pilgrimage to the Holy Land designed to seize control of the area from the Muslim inhabitants because Urban II saw the reclamation of Jerusalem as being key to his unification of the Catholic, Orthodox and Byzantine Christians and various European kingdoms under the thumb of the Catholic Church.

The third crusade, about 100 years later, also barely had anything to do with a real and present threat to Europe, and was ordered by Pope Gregory VII in retaliation to the Islamic Emperor Saladin taking control of Jerusalem and Damascus, territories that were at the time occupied by Christian forces. Long story short this Crusade was a complete failure and was called off.

The 4th Crusade wasn't even about Europe or the Holy Land, it was a cluster-fuck, essentially the Crusaders were indebted to the Venetians because they had asked for 500 ships to wage war but couldn't afford them, so they agreed to help the Venetians conquer a rebel city called Zara in exchange for the ships. Zara being a Christian city. Oh, and they failed at that spectacularly, so the Crusaders were all excommunicated from the Catholic Church and basically became a mercenary band working for the Orthodox Emperor Alexius III, but when he was dethroned and it became clear the Crusaders wouldn't get paid they basically massacred the city of Constantinople where they had been residing under Alexius' rule and stole whatever they could of value.

Basically, the Crusades were a massive failure that did little to reclaim the holy land or unify Christianity or Europe. In fact it bolstered Muslim opposition towards Christians and set the stage for the Ottoman empire to gain a stronghold in the region.

[–]Astrality 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You seem to be very informed about the subject, do you have a wikipedia link or something? My family absolutely hates people from other religions, would be very useful to show them ours isn't all love and roses.

[–]bludgeonerV [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Got into a debate about it years ago online, ended up spending way too much time reading about it because of all the super strange shit that went down.

There is a fucking good youtube animated series about it i'd recommend, and if you want to know more see what books people recommend or watch a doco, there is a 3 hr one out there somewhere I saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIs5B2U7US0

[–]RTC? TI5? ESL? MLG? 1V1? FRANKFURT? SL13? MDL?beaverlyknight 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

It's not like the Crusades were some unprovoked sneak attack. The Crusades were campaigns in a long running war. There had been Muslim attempts to invade Western Europe, such as taking Iberia and attempting to take France before being stopped at Tours. The Muslim lands had continually expanded, and eventually the Europeans went for an offensive themselves.

[–]bludgeonerV 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

Actually they kind of were, there were no major provocations by the Seljuk Turks at the time that can be used to justify that invasion, and whatever squabbles in the region there were with Muslims they weren't with the Seljuks. Prior to the crusade the Sejulks and various Christians had a relatively productive relationship, they even allowed Christians to live in Jerusalem and pilgrimage was a huge part of their economy.

The first crusade happened in 1095, the actual military expansion into Europe by Muslims didn't happen until the time of Emperor Saladin in 1170s, 80 years after the fact. If you're trying to use the invasion of Europe as justification for the first crusade you're wrong, plain and simple. Urban II had a grand plan to unify Christendom and reclaiming the Holy Land was his crown jewel - that is ultimately what this came down to.

[–]8000 MATCHMAKING POINTSWE_ID 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

Thanks for trying to shed light on this revisionist and islamophobic reading of history. I knew for a fact that the crusades didn't have shit to do with Islamic jihad, but it's nice to see other sane pople.

[–]bludgeonerV 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

You could argue that the 3rd crusade was a response to Jihadism, but that would be the only remotely applicable case, and even that is far from the full story.

[–]8000 MATCHMAKING POINTSWE_ID 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

I think it's just islamophobic rhetoric bleeding into history and current affairs. It's easy to paint Muslims as "the enemy" when you can pull back to 500+ years of Islam trying to wipe out Europe when the reality is a much more complicated and nuanced case.

[–]bludgeonerV 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

Partially Islamophobia sure, especially recently, but more often than not when it comes to the crusades the Muslim blaming is from Christians who can't bring themselves to acknowledge the fact that it was Christian lust for power that is responsible for the crusades, and that they murdered and pillaged tends of thousands of people they encountered on their journey, Christians included.

[–]8000 MATCHMAKING POINTSWE_ID 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Such an ugly part of history, though much of European history seems to be just as ugly.

[–]bludgeonerV 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ugly at the time, in retrospect it's more fascinating than anything ;)