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Would you consider Memphis a scouting failure? (self.reddevils)

manutd_ が 投稿

  1. Ineffective dribbling/shooting/playmaking vs PL and CL defenses.
  2. Major defensive liability compared to many other young players like Martial. Has cost us points with defensive errors.
  3. Easily dispossessed and poor decision making for most of the season too even though this is getting better.
  4. We gave him a higher transfer valuation than the likes of Douglas Costa / Kinsgley Coman or Mahrez and equal to Dybala who've performed much better vs higher quality opponents.
  5. It could be argued that we overpaid since we've had to fix weaknesses in so many areas of his game. At the rate he is improving, he requires atleast one more year of work to start doing the no. 7 shirt some sort of justice.
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[–]black_squireMartial 19ポイント20ポイント  (58子コメント)

No a scouting failure. Just taking some time to adjust to a new league. Not completely unheard of given he's from the Dutch league.

[–]LDN2016 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (26子コメント)

i think you can call him a scouting failure.

he was bought because he was familiar to lvg and psg were sniffing around, not because he was the best (young) winger available at that price point. 34m was enough money to get douglas costa or coman. It got chelsea and arsenal willian and sanchez.

i think lvg is one of the greatest tacticians of his generation and youth developers but transfers and squad building have always been his weakness.

he kept trying to veto bayern getting neuer ffs.

he brings guys he's familiar with wherever he goes and gets transfer control.

No other manager would have gone for blind, romero, an over the hill basti and memphis.

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He has a good reason for it. His training and pre match prep (lets just call it philosophy) is insanely difficult and detailed. It requires a 50+ hour work week for all staff.

Those familiar with the system require less time to teach and more people who know the philosophy speeds up teaching it to the full squad and makes it easier to execute the daily grinding method of video analysis, tactical talks etc. that he does.

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He's like saf. He'll prefer players who get his philosophy and listen like good boys rather than freakishly talented players who do their own thing and disregard the game plan.

This pragmatism, however, often leads to very average squads being built by him that overperform because they follow through on his complex game plan very well.

[–]black_squireMartial -4ポイント-3ポイント  (25子コメント)

Familiarity with the system is not Memphis' problem. It's ability to execute in a faster paced and stronger league. The idea behind getting him was also not short term as to judge his scouting after one season. If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.

Falcao was a scouting failure for example. He was tipped to be an immediate impact to our team offensively but his steep decline was either misjudged or a calculated risk given he was loaned an not bought.

Again, I think the issue here is confusing "season failure" to "scouting failure". Even SAF said you had to disregard the first season of players coming from international leagues. Ronaldo also didn't light up the world in his first season. Sure he was younger and showed more moments of brilliance, but then again he wasn't tossed into a brand new team learning a new system of play and trying to deal with a hapless injury crisis.

Simply put, if we were stronger as a team, Memphis would have already been played out of his funk. Playing him consistently right now is more detrimental to an already woeful season and that's the only reason he's still in poor form. If we had much better players surrounding him that could counter his errors and still grind out wins with or without a functioning LW, he'd have gotten enough play time to work out his kinks.

[–]LDN2016 3ポイント4ポイント  (24子コメント)

If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.

at this elite level he doesn't have that much time to prove himself.

we aren't going to keep the lw spot open for him to take another year to find his feet, he's already 22 not some teenager.

i'd be shocked if we don't buy a lw or make martial permanent lw and buy a new striker. memphis wont have a starter spot reserved for him to develop at a club with united's ambitions unless he improves very rapidly.

[–]black_squireMartial -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I find it ridiculous that you're suggesting a 22 year old in his first year in the toughest league in the world should be performing at some remarkable level. That while completely ignoring the circumstances he's surrounded by.

I guess this is what world football has come to.

You're welcome to have your opinion. Memphis doesn't need a spot reserved for him. He'll be given them to adjust and he'll perform next season. Feel free to tag this comment and rub it in my face if he fails woefully.

[–]LDN2016 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Martial's performing at the level expected of memphis.

Martial isn't lighting up the league with 30 goals but he's made a solid contribution with a bit of inconsistency that's allowed at this age.

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Memphis has been way below the expectations of a talented but inconsistent youth.

Ayoze Perez put in better performances for Newcastle in his first season. Memphis has been a pretty big disappointment, there's no sense in glossing over it.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -5ポイント-4ポイント  (18子コメント)

22 is still incredibly young for a footballer. Henry was 23 when he went to arsenal.. he wasn't exactly lighting up the world at Monaco.

[–]LDN2016 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

memphis may turn into a superstar.

he is still going to struggle to keep a spot if he needs another full season or two to start putting in world class performances.

the bar is raised in modern football.

nite dis the biggest club in the world and theres too much money riding on immediate success

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coman was good scouting. memphis was not. the fact that he's needed a season to adjust and still looks just as bad as day 1 is a filure of scouting.

regardless of how his career winds up 5 years from now.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Was De Gea a scouting failure? He made so many mistakes in his first season, lost us a number of points.

[–]black_squireMartial -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the most valid example of differentiating between a failed maiden season and a scouting failure.

[–]LDN2016 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

that season was a botched gk transition. his mistakes directly cost us the title.

but theres an enormous fuckign gulf in the quality of performances between de gea and memphis. he had his fair share of world class performances.

de gea was as good in 11/12 as martial has been in 15/16

thats the level of (in)consistency you expect from elite young players because they are putting in world class performances but with the occasional silly mistake or howler of a match.

memphis has had maybe 1 world class match. 0 in the league.

worst of all he's shown 0 improvement since match 1. if anything he's playing worse now than he did at the start of the season.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean that's just using the context of the season to justify your contradiction.

I would make the conjecture that say Coman would look shit in our side just like he did at Juventus. The team and environment in which a player plays makes a huge difference.

Has Memphis been shit, yes, but who the fuck hasn't in our side. Looking at actual offensive output, at any other top club, as a striker Martial has had a shit season. Seven goals in the league is a pretty bad. Our top assister, Mata, has 4 assists. As a system, as a team we have been shit. Does that excuse Memphis, not at all, but at the same time let's not be short sighted about a very talented prospect.

[–]LDN2016 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Coman would look shit in our side just like he did at Juventus

He didn't look shit at Juventus? You're talking out of your arse.

Has Memphis been shit, yes, but who the fuck hasn't in our side.

I agree that most of our squad is full of shit Europa League talent but this thread is just discussing Memphis. He's nowhere near my first priority to replace. But he has been downright shit and attack is one of our main priorities.

at the same time let's not be short sighted

He needs to play to develop. He won't magically evolve at age 24 like a Pokemon.

To play and not destroy our season he has to put in a very bare minimum quality of performances to justify starting.

He's so far away from that baseline (roughly where Martial is right now) that I don't see how he's going to develop.

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When we were good someone like Martial wouldn't have gotten game time ahead of Ronaldo/Giggs/Beckham or Yorke/Cole/RvN. But in our current situation like back in 2004 (Rooney) we can afford to play a supremely talented youngster (Martial) and tolerate inconsistencies that mean we'll finish 2nd/3rd instead of win the league and get to the CL semis.

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Memphis has been SO bad that he wouldn't start at clubs like Stoke and Everton this season let alone a weak United let alone a team that looks like a PL/CL favourite.

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Martial's not good enough to come close to the Barca/Bayern/Madrid starting XI right now. But that's ok because his inconsistencies have been good enough for now.

If Martial stays at this level for 3 years then we worry and buy someone better. But for now this is ok. He's young and deserves time to grow.

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Memphis is way behind even that acceptably average (compared to the elite 3 clubs) level of performance.

[–]TudoorsYoung -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

We did not buy Memphis for this season, we bought him for the future. That's what scouting youth talent is all about. 22 is still young for a footballer. 2 years from now we can have this discussion, but as of now it's stupid.

[–]LDN2016 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

you dont buy a 34m player so he can peak in 2020.

he doesnt have 2 years to be awful on the left wing at a club at this level.

he'd struggle to keep his spot at a club at everton's level with his performances let alone united who's direct rivals are bayern, barca and madrid.

he was bought to play like rooney, de gea and ronaldo were and like martial/shaw have.

all 5 of those were putting in high quality performances from day 1 with the sort of mistakes and inconsistency you can allow for a very talented youth player you can see will be world class soon enough.

memphis hasn't put in a single performance in the league good enough.

im ok with inconsistency and mistake from youth. rooney, ronaldo, martial, de gea and shaw is the sort of inconsistency im ok with.

memphis is way below expectations.

[–]wakey87433Mata -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Would Coman do it in the English league though?

In England we have one of the most unique leagues in the world and it requires a set of attributes that often foreign players haven't had to aquire. Some may be lucky and have those attributes naturally and fit right in but others take time. People forget how poor Silva was for almost all of his first season and what about Ozil who took plenty of time to settle.

And look at AdM, many of the same things said about Depay could have been thrown at him, he was older and with that experience was able to pick out some great passes but those would just mask his issues in adapting. He was bullied off the ball, would lose possession more often than not when he tried to dribble, wouldn't track back and the likes. He needed time to adapt,,he didn't however want to put in that work to adapt so didn't and took the easy way out but I'd Memphis is stronger mentally then writing him off is daft.

Also let's remember that fee you are quoting is the all I'm fee so when people,like Sanchez are brought up its a little unfair because his fee was reported at £35mill but like Memphis £25mill deal,becomes over 30 due to conditional payments the likelihood is Sancez also increases

[–]LDN2016 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Would Coman do it in the English league though?

Yes, I think he could hack it on a cold rainy Tuesday night in Stoke.

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Silva, Ozil, AdM

All of them had similar contributions to Martial this season in their 1st year. Martial gets praised for it because he's a kid. They got criticised because they were expected to play like one of the top 10 players in the world.

Messi and Ronaldo get boo'd for a 30 goal season. All but maybe 3 or 4 players get praised for a 30 goal season.

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Memphis has been nowhere near any of those players' first seasons. Absolute nobodies like Ayoze Perez have had significantly better fist seasons than Memphis in the PL which is why he's being slated so much.

Everyone expects highly rated and expensive youth to be rough around the edges and inconsistent. Like Martial. He's not worth 57m but you see the potential.

Memphis has been shockingly below expectations. With his performances he wouldn't start at Everton and Stoke this season let alone a club like United.

[–]wakey87433Mata -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, I think he could hack it on a cold rainy Tuesday night in Stoke

You mean like Kagawa set the world alight? People were convinced he would be perfect but he wasn't.

On Silva he contributed very little in his first season. Both MOTD and Sky Sports did segments on how poor he was and how he hindered City's play about 3/4 of the way into the season.

Ozil showed up with a few great passes against the weaker teams in his first two years but would go missing against clubs I the top half .

And as I said about AdM he picked a few brilliant passes which glossed over how poor his over all game was and that ability to pick those came down to largely his extra experience which gave him a bit more composure where as Depay lacks the composure and picks the wrong ball or doesn't hit it right

All 3 of those did less than Martial has done in their first season. Martial is one of those rare players who comes from a league that doesn't call on the English attributes but has them naturally and gets a good start but most don't have that

[–]LDN2016 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You mean like Kagawa set the world alight? People were convinced he would be perfect but he wasn't.

Let's not start a Kagawa argument. I think the blame for that lies completely with our club and he's a fantastic player. I'm still beyond pissed off we had to sell him to wind up with Mata.

But starting that argument is going to be a pointless digression.

On Silva he contributed very little in his first season

You're being delusional if you think Memphis' season has been anywhere near Silva's 1st season. Martial's barely been as good as Silva's first season.

Standards are set higher for top players. Ozil also had a "disappointing" 1st season but his performances were better than Martial this season.

All 3 of those did less than Martial has done in their first seaso

I love Martial, but you're being totally delusional.

[–]manutd_[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree with this completely. Memphis replaced Ashley Young at LW and hasn't delivered a third of his output and isn't getting better fast enough. Its a scouting failure.

[–]icesurfer10Dave 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's still a chance he could turn this ship around. I'm not sure what it is he's missing since coming here but I hope he can find it.

[–]jbiresqHerrera 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

His biggest problems seem to be adjusting to the pace, intensity and physicality of the Prem but that's not something that could have been scouted. He was rated as one of the brightest prospects in Europe for a reason and we've certainly seen him show it in some of his displays.

[–]manutd_[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Hes had problems keeping possession, with decision making and with defensive errors too in addition to the pace. I am surprised our scouting didn't catch all of this.

[–]TudoorsYoung -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps they did, those sound characteristic of young players however.

[–]jbiresqHerrera -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

All that stuff comes because he's facing a level of opposition much greater than he's used to. The scouting staff saw something worthwhile in him and thought those problems (which AFAIK were issues at PSV) could be ironed out with proper coaching. This year was always going to be an adjustment and I believe the club knew that.

[–]LDN2016 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

That argument just doesn't fly when Martial's performing as well as he is.

Martial's not world class but is making the sort of mistakes with the sort of inconsistency that you expect of a soon to be world class young forward.

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Memphis has been way below the level expected even if you account for the problems you expect from a youth signing.

[–]jbiresqHerrera -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Martial had also spent a full year playing in France, a league that is much tougher physically than the Eredivisie and relatively close to the Prem. And players develop differently. Memphis was one of the highest rated prospects in Europe for a reason and buying him was defensible. He's had a bad season but I'm not sure why you're saying the scouting was at fault. It can't predict these kinds of mental adjustments.

[–]LDN2016 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Memphis was one of the highest rated prospects in Europe for a reason

World cup hype. It happens every tournament.

We got fucked over overpaying for world cup hype after the 2002 tourney as well.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

So psg, bayern, and United's scouting systems don't know what they are doing...

[–]manutd_[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Bayern know what they're doing which is why they were never in for Memphis.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eh, there were clear sources that psg, bayern, United and Liverpool were the clubs in for him.

[–]manutd_[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Liverpool and United were most eager. PSG were also interested though not to that extent and he was never a Bayern target because they had (correctly) identified other targets as it later turned out.

[–]TudoorsYoung -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jul/15/memphis-depay-bayern-munich-manchester-united-louis-van-gaal

He turned down Bayern to join United, so by your shit logic, every single top team in the world has failed scouting networks. You're actually thick.

[–]DANNYWELBECK12345De Gea 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it was a failure, we were all expecting Memphis to be beating men left right and center, but he can barely beat any full backs.

[–]Launch_a_poo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, I think he'll become a good buy eventually. The potential is there.

[–]tamasuperstarDe Gea -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I have no idea why people are writing him off. Despite popular opinion perpetuated by the media he has a good attitude.

He clearly switches off at times especially defensively and gets frustrated but that's something he'll grow out of.

I don't think you can call him a scouting failure, he was being watched by all the top European clubs, had a fantastic World Cup and would have moved to PSG had we not moved in (doubt people would criticise their scouts).

Not to mention you can't really compare him to ridiculous outliers like Mahrez. Coman also came from a top team and likely wouldn't have moved to us.

This thread has attracted the shitter elements of this sub though so opinion downvoting is going to be in full effect I'm sure.

[–]LDN2016 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think he's going to end up somewhere between nani and ando.

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you see the potential and then you compare the skills to a younger martial and its clear how far behind the lad is.

[–]ttjoelkerMemphis 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd consider him a young player who has not yet acclimatized to the PL and to playing against tough opponents. he didn't transfer here from a top notch team, he came here from PSV. The PL is the toughest league in the world. Give him time, he will be great.

[–]IDespot90Martial 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

U have point, some players take time to adapt, but modern football is not so kind to giving player time.

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Memphis looked excellent on paper. It's difficult to predict how a player will adapt to a new environment.

I would not put it down as a scouting failure, no.

[–]manutd_[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the scouts and management do try and make this prediction. They have to make a judgement on whether the player will be a good fit for the new environment or else what is the rationale for bringing the player in.

In this case the judgement has been off the mark IMO.

[–]SonnyisKing 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let me remind you that no one(or very few) have been as consistently shit as this guy and managed to turn into a world class player in the premier league. So why do people think he will turn good? He has nothing special about him and his arsenal is very limited.

[–]MisterAlexL -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Too early to tell.

[–]frankowen18 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wtf is this witch hunt by some people in this sub for Memphis. He's a 21 year old at a huge new club in a new league in a new country. Not even been here a season and there's posts like this questioning if he's a failure or whatever. Fuck off.

[–]Hugh-JasoleBeckham -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dybala is playing well because A. he's in a better team, a much better team, and B. he's in a tactical framework that makes sense, and obviously suits his ability.

Memphis is a creative player who loves to cut inside, shoot, and do his own thing. In the dutch league, he was devastating. Under LVG in Manchester, he's been far too restricted. I don't care if he gives the ball away a few times, he'll fix that eventually. United need goals and he's someone who could have supplied more.

NOT a scouting failure. This rests on LVG, as far as I'm concerned.