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Would you consider Memphis a scouting failure? (self.reddevils)
manutd_ が 2時間前 * 投稿
[–]black_squireMartial 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 2時間前 (44子コメント)
No a scouting failure. Just taking some time to adjust to a new league. Not completely unheard of given he's from the Dutch league.
[–]LDN2016 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前* (17子コメント)
i think you can call him a scouting failure.
he was bought because he was familiar to lvg and psg were sniffing around, not because he was the best (young) winger available at that price point. 34m was enough money to get douglas costa or coman. It got chelsea and arsenal willian and sanchez.
i think lvg is one of the greatest tacticians of his generation and youth developers but transfers and squad building have always been his weakness.
he kept trying to veto bayern getting neuer ffs.
he brings guys he's familiar with wherever he goes and gets transfer control.
No other manager would have gone for blind, romero, an over the hill basti and memphis.
.
He has a good reason for it. His training and pre match prep (lets just call it philosophy) is insanely difficult and detailed. It requires a 50+ hour work week for all staff.
Those familiar with the system require less time to teach and more people who know the philosophy speeds up teaching it to the full squad and makes it easier to execute the daily grinding method of video analysis, tactical talks etc. that he does.
He's like saf. He'll prefer players who get his philosophy and listen like good boys rather than freakishly talented players who do their own thing and disregard the game plan.
This pragmatism, however, often leads to very average squads being built by him that overperform because they follow through on his complex game plan very well.
[–]black_squireMartial -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1時間前 (16子コメント)
Familiarity with the system is not Memphis' problem. It's ability to execute in a faster paced and stronger league. The idea behind getting him was also not short term as to judge his scouting after one season. If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.
Falcao was a scouting failure for example. He was tipped to be an immediate impact to our team offensively but his steep decline was either misjudged or a calculated risk given he was loaned an not bought.
Again, I think the issue here is confusing "season failure" to "scouting failure". Even SAF said you had to disregard the first season of players coming from international leagues. Ronaldo also didn't light up the world in his first season. Sure he was younger and showed more moments of brilliance, but then again he wasn't tossed into a brand new team learning a new system of play and trying to deal with a hapless injury crisis.
Simply put, if we were stronger as a team, Memphis would have already been played out of his funk. Playing him consistently right now is more detrimental to an already woeful season and that's the only reason he's still in poor form. If we had much better players surrounding him that could counter his errors and still grind out wins with or without a functioning LW, he'd have gotten enough play time to work out his kinks.
[–]LDN2016 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (15子コメント)
If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.
at this elite level he doesn't have that much time to prove himself.
we aren't going to keep the lw spot open for him to take another year to find his feet, he's already 22 not some teenager.
i'd be shocked if we don't buy a lw or make martial permanent lw and buy a new striker. memphis wont have a starter spot reserved for him to develop at a club with united's ambitions unless he improves very rapidly.
[–]black_squireMartial -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 35分前 (4子コメント)
I find it ridiculous that you're suggesting a 22 year old in his first year in the toughest league in the world should be performing at some remarkable level. That while completely ignoring the circumstances he's surrounded by.
I guess this is what world football has come to.
You're welcome to have your opinion. Memphis doesn't need a spot reserved for him. He'll be given them to adjust and he'll perform next season. Feel free to tag this comment and rub it in my face if he fails woefully.
[–]LDN2016 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 30分前 (3子コメント)
Martial's performing at the level expected of memphis.
Martial isn't lighting up the league with 30 goals but he's made a solid contribution with a bit of inconsistency that's allowed at this age.
Memphis has been way below the expectations of a talented but inconsistent youth.
Ayoze Perez put in better performances for Newcastle in his first season. Memphis has been a pretty big disappointment, there's no sense in glossing over it.
[+]black_squireMartial スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 25分前 (2子コメント)
And by all standards Martial is an exception to the rule not remotely close to being the rule. I have no idea how well Ayoze Perez has done but I'll wager he's had a lot more playing time than Memphis has and that plays a significant role in adapting to a league.
Again, he's been a disappointment this season. No one is arguing that. The argument is if that qualifies as a scouting failure and unless you have a definition of a scouting failure that I'm not privy to, that can't be determined after 1 season. At least not a season that's been plagued by the level of circumstances that's befallen a newly built team. It's just that simple.
[–]LDN2016 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 17分前 (1子コメント)
you have a definition of a scouting failure that I'm not privy to
spending 34m on a player who's performed as badly as memphis with 0 improvement over the course of the season who looks worse now than he did in his first match.
ayoze perez was just an example. there's no shortage of young winger/forwards over the last couple of years who've all played better and adjusted to the PL easily.
It's not like netherlands => uk is a culture shock either. its a coaching setup he's spent massive amounts of time with at the national team so it's not like he's learning the philosophy or system for the first time either.
he has every head start and advantage when it comes to settling in.
compared to martial who moved form sunny monaco to a cold rainy shithole with no notice or preparation to a country where he doesn't speak a word of english and has almost 0 means of communication with lvg.
Martial is an exception to the rule
Which is why he cost so much money. He was well scouted.
Our scouts' job is to find these once in a generation exceptions to the rule.
I don't think you comprehend how high standards are set for transfers at United. This is a club that calls itself the biggest.
This is harsh for a club like Arsenal or Juventus. We're in direct competition with Barca, Bayern and Madrid. Our squad decisions have to be compared with those 3 and only those 3.
Ayoze Perez has done but I'll wager he's had a lot more playing time
He got playing time because he performed. He was brought on from the bench until he won himself a starter spot.
[–]black_squireMartial -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 11分前* (0子コメント)
The price of a player is a factor of the transfer market and the clubs involved not fully the quality of the player. If you considered DDG a scouting failure in his first season the.n your argument has some basis. Otherwise you're just being unreasonable.
Again the system is obviously not the problem with Memphis it's his personal duel with a higher quality league. Individual players adjust differently and on different teams. Your comparisons remain invalid given that fact alone.
You seem focused on ideas that are irrelevant to Memphis at United. Fan expectations and cost of a player have nothing to do with potential and adaptability to the premier league. It's really just that simple.
I'm fine agreeing to disagree.
EDIT: you might also be served in realizing that Ayoze Perez in more games than Memphis has the same amount of goals and 1 less assist. Memphis also has far less time in the Prem but has done better statistically overall so your example is moot. Feel free to provide any other examples of young first time Prem wingers with better stats since there are multiple examples. I'll prefer players from the Dutch league but at this point any will do for the sake of argument.
[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 54分前 (9子コメント)
22 is still incredibly young for a footballer. Henry was 23 when he went to arsenal.. he wasn't exactly lighting up the world at Monaco.
[–]LDN2016 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 43分前 (8子コメント)
memphis may turn into a superstar.
he is still going to struggle to keep a spot if he needs another full season or two to start putting in world class performances.
the bar is raised in modern football.
nite dis the biggest club in the world and theres too much money riding on immediate success
coman was good scouting. memphis was not. the fact that he's needed a season to adjust and still looks just as bad as day 1 is a filure of scouting.
regardless of how his career winds up 5 years from now.
[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 24分前 (2子コメント)
Was De Gea a scouting failure? He made so many mistakes in his first season, lost us a number of points.
[–]black_squireMartial -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 22分前 (0子コメント)
This is the most valid example of differentiating between a failed maiden season and a scouting failure.
[–]LDN2016 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 13分前 (0子コメント)
that season was a botched gk transition. his mistakes directly cost us the title.
but theres an enormous fuckign gulf in the quality of performances between de gea and memphis. he had his fair share of world class performances.
de gea was as good in 11/12 as martial has been in 15/16
thats the level of (in)consistency you expect from elite young players because they are putting in world class performances but with the occasional silly mistake or howler of a match.
memphis has had maybe 1 world class match. 0 in the league.
worst of all he's shown 0 improvement since match 1. if anything he's playing worse now than he did at the start of the season.
[–]TudoorsYoung -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 15分前 (3子コメント)
We did not buy Memphis for this season, we bought him for the future. That's what scouting youth talent is all about. 22 is still young for a footballer. 2 years from now we can have this discussion, but as of now it's stupid.
[–]LDN2016 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 9分前 (2子コメント)
you dont buy a 34m player so he can peak in 2020.
he doesnt have 2 years to be awful on the left wing at a club at this level.
he'd struggle to keep his spot at a club at everton's level with his performances let alone united who's direct rivals are bayern, barca and madrid.
he was bought to play like rooney, de gea and ronaldo were and like martial/shaw have.
all 5 of those were putting in high quality performances from day 1 with the sort of mistakes and inconsistency you can allow for a very talented youth player you can see will be world class soon enough.
memphis hasn't put in a single performance in the league good enough.
im ok with inconsistency and mistake from youth. rooney, ronaldo, martial, de gea and shaw is the sort of inconsistency im ok with.
memphis is way below expectations.
[+]TudoorsYoung スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 5分前 (1子コメント)
And this is where I end the conversation. United's direct rivals are Leicester City, Manchester City, Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham, Liverpool. You're in some deluded land where Manchester United is competing with those top clubs at the moment, and as of now, we are not.
For the record, Shaw was poor his first year, De Gea was poor his first year, so was Ronaldo, Rooney was not, again an exception. Feel free to respond, I wont. It's clear you're not thinking straight or you're incapable of it.
[–]LDN2016 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント たった今 (0子コメント)
this is the pathetic inferiority complex mentality that turns giant clubs into midtable mediocrity like liverpool.
if you think spurs and arsenal are aspirational targets for the biggest club in the world i have no time for you.
[–]manutd_[S] 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 37分前 (0子コメント)
Agree with this completely. Memphis replaced Ashley Young at LW and hasn't delivered a third of his output and isn't getting better fast enough. Its a scouting failure.
[+]manutd_[S] スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 1時間前 (25子コメント)
It is a scouting failure in comparative terms if we look at what other top teams who integrated youth got out of them. Memphis was nowhere near as ready as Coman or Dybala who've had stellar seasons.
[–]itsandercontrolBerbatov 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (19子コメント)
We don't know if Coman or Dybala would've struggled in PL.
[–]AngryUncleTonyShaw 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (18子コメント)
And they play for better sides, both in terms of talent (especially Bayern) and identity. We're just making it up as we go along.
[+]manutd_[S] スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1時間前 (17子コメント)
That's an invalid excuse because Martial has done much better than Memphis in the same system because he was much better prepared (more talented too).
[–]macismydog 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1時間前 (11子コメント)
Martial is the exception not the rule.
It's very uncommon for a kid his age to move to a new country, force his way into the starting 11 and perform as well and as consistently as he has.
[–]manutd_[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (10子コメント)
Yeah and our scouting has to ensure that if we lay out 35m for a player he is nearly ready to perform and won't take 2 years to adjust.
[–]TudoorsYoung 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (9子コメント)
Forget about the price. United always overpay for players. Depay is not a poorly scouted player, last season he was the best performing youngster and this season he's found it harder to adjust to the EPL. 2 years from now you will still not say he's a scouting failure if he's failed, just a failure.
[–]manutd_[S] -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (8子コメント)
Why is he not a scouting failure if we couldn't predict that he would be offensively ineffective, defensive error prone and have problems keeping possession in the PL. He was bought as one of the first team options for this season and we paid 35m for him which is starter money anywhere.
[–]shadowbanned32 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
We could and did. LvG said when we got him that he is young and will not acclimate to the league quickly and that we should not judge him or pressure him yet. You're such an ignorant shmuck
[–]TudoorsYoung 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 20分前 (2子コメント)
if we couldn't predict that he would be offensively ineffective, defensive error prone and have problems keeping possession in the PL
Sounds a lot like Eden Hazard in his first season at Chelsea. Regardless, your point is still moronic. You use stupid comparisons like Coman, Douglas Costa, even Dybala who were bought for completely different reasons. Coman is a kid who hasn't been "stellar" he's been pretty good for a 19 year old, nothing special, not better than Martial anyway. Then you look at Douglas Costa, a 25 year old who cost almost the same price as Depay, yet he's 3 and a half years older, that means we can in theory get 3 more years out of Depay, sounds pretty good to me if he turns into the player Douglas Costa is. Then Dybala also didn't have to leave Serie A, and he walked into the best team in that league by a mile, so his transition was easier than that of Depay's. It's not the scouting department's job to "predict" that he has flaws to his game, we would not have bought Ronaldo if we knew just how much there was to work on in his game. We buy them because they have the potential, you're going to get some right, and some wrong. Depay is exactly what we signed him for, I expected a little more from him this season, but not much. If he manages to score 3 more this season, and assist 1-2 more then I think he'll be on track.
[–]AngryUncleTonyShaw 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
Martial has played better for sure, no doubt about it. But each player is different, you can't just immediately plug them into any situation and expect them to work. So I agree, "scouting" and planning are required to acquire players that fit what you're trying to do as a team. If we had bought Memphis for just this season, he's a failure. But we bought him for a longer time frame, and that frame has a built in period for growing pains. He also hasn't been put into the best position to succeed by the manger, so I really don't get the hate for him.
[–]manutd_[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
We did he expect him to deliver this season since the attacking 4 were expected to be Mata, Rooney Martial and Him. Its not hate really, its just that we're getting low returns on investments and I see our mediocrity continuing until we fix this aspect.
[–]AngryUncleTonyShaw 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I agree, I thought he'd hit the ground running more than he has. I also thought the whole team would be better. Rooney struggled for much of the year, Mata has had his moments but been largely invisible for stretches, and Martial has been our most consistent attacker. It's not a problem unique to Memphis, we've been thoroughly mediocre. I put that down to coaching and lack of talent in certain areas, but Memphis certainly isn't lacking in talent, just it's application.
[–]TudoorsYoung 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12分前 (0子コメント)
You apply that "failure on investment" logic to buying the finished article, not a work in progress. Depay is not the finished article, as I said numerous times, 2 years from now, if he's still performing like shit then he would have been a failed investment, as of now he's still only 22. 24 is when you can fairly start to evaluate a player.
[–]jbiresqHerrera -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Because he was playing in the French league, which is much better than the Dutch league. Same with Coman and Dybala playing in Serie A. You can't easily predict how players will adjust to a step up in the quality around them.
[–]black_squireMartial 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I think you're mistaken a first season failure for a scouting failure.
A scouting failure suggests inability to perform whatsoever. Completely misreading his footballing capabilities and assuming quality where there is none.
His display against Midgtylland alone shows he's capable of doing things but only needs to adapt to a faster paced league and stronger opposition. He still has flashes even in games in which he's poor, he just needs to be able to do it more consistently.
[–]MrD3athRyan Fucking Giggs 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
How do you know they'd be good in this team/system?
[–]manutd_[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Martial has been better both offensively and defensively than Memphis. The other players I've mentioned have shown similar characteristics in their own clubs.
[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Coman went from psg to juventus to bayern before he found a footing. He looked really bad at juventus. Things are not black and white
[–]SoFuLLEricTheKing 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Coman isn't a regular starter for Bayern, he's a talented up and coming youngster in a well oiled machine. Much easier context for him. Dybala struggled in his first few months at Juve (as did the whole team). But again he's in a well oiled winning machine, in a league he knows well. I'm disappointed with Memphis' performances but let's give him some more time before declaring him a flop
[–]icesurfer10Dave 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I think there's still a chance he could turn this ship around. I'm not sure what it is he's missing since coming here but I hope he can find it.
[–]DANNYWELBECK12345De Gea 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 8分前 (0子コメント)
I think it was a failure, we were all expecting Memphis to be beating men left right and center, but he can barely beat any full backs.
[–]Launch_a_poo 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
No, I think he'll become a good buy eventually. The potential is there.
[+]LDN2016 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
i think he's going to end up somewhere between nani and ando.
you see the potential and then you compare the skills to a younger martial and its clear how far behind the lad is.
[–]jbiresqHerrera 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (9子コメント)
His biggest problems seem to be adjusting to the pace, intensity and physicality of the Prem but that's not something that could have been scouted. He was rated as one of the brightest prospects in Europe for a reason and we've certainly seen him show it in some of his displays.
Hes had problems keeping possession, with decision making and with defensive errors too in addition to the pace. I am surprised our scouting didn't catch all of this.
[–]TudoorsYoung -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Perhaps they did, those sound characteristic of young players however.
[–]jbiresqHerrera -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
All that stuff comes because he's facing a level of opposition much greater than he's used to. The scouting staff saw something worthwhile in him and thought those problems (which AFAIK were issues at PSV) could be ironed out with proper coaching. This year was always going to be an adjustment and I believe the club knew that.
[–]LDN2016 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 28分前 (0子コメント)
That argument just doesn't fly when Martial's performing as well as he is.
Martial's not world class but is making the sort of mistakes with the sort of inconsistency that you expect of a soon to be world class young forward.
Memphis has been way below the level expected even if you account for the problems you expect from a youth signing.
[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
So psg, bayern, and United's scouting systems don't know what they are doing...
[–]manutd_[S] 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
Bayern know what they're doing which is why they were never in for Memphis.
[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Eh, there were clear sources that psg, bayern, United and Liverpool were the clubs in for him.
[–]manutd_[S] 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Liverpool and United were most eager. PSG were also interested though not to that extent and he was never a Bayern target because they had (correctly) identified other targets as it later turned out.
[–]TudoorsYoung -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 9分前 (0子コメント)
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jul/15/memphis-depay-bayern-munich-manchester-united-louis-van-gaal
He turned down Bayern to join United, so by your shit logic, every single top team in the world has failed scouting networks. You're actually thick.
[–]ttjoelkerMemphis -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I'd consider him a young player who has not yet acclimatized to the PL and to playing against tough opponents. he didn't transfer here from a top notch team, he came here from PSV. The PL is the toughest league in the world. Give him time, he will be great.
[–]IDespot90Martial 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
U have point, some players take time to adapt, but modern football is not so kind to giving player time.
[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Memphis looked excellent on paper. It's difficult to predict how a player will adapt to a new environment.
I would not put it down as a scouting failure, no.
[–]manutd_[S] 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 42分前 (0子コメント)
I think the scouts and management do try and make this prediction. They have to make a judgement on whether the player will be a good fit for the new environment or else what is the rationale for bringing the player in.
In this case the judgement has been off the mark IMO.
[–]MisterAlexL -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Too early to tell.
π Rendered by PID 29719 on app-136 at 2016-03-30 21:35:54.153740+00:00 running 2d26bf0 country code: JP.
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