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Would you consider Memphis a scouting failure? (self.reddevils)

manutd_ が 投稿

  1. Ineffective dribbling/shooting/playmaking vs PL and CL defenses.
  2. Major defensive liability compared to many other young players like Martial. Has cost us points with defensive errors.
  3. Easily dispossessed and poor decision making for most of the season too even though this is getting better.
  4. We gave him a higher transfer valuation than the likes of Douglas Costa / Kinsgley Coman or Mahrez and equal to Dybala who've performed much better vs higher quality opponents.
  5. It could be argued that we overpaid since we've had to fix weaknesses in so many areas of his game. At the rate he is improving, he requires atleast one more year of work to start doing the no. 7 shirt some sort of justice.
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[–]black_squireMartial 11ポイント12ポイント  (40子コメント)

No a scouting failure. Just taking some time to adjust to a new league. Not completely unheard of given he's from the Dutch league.

[–]LDN2016 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (14子コメント)

i think you can call him a scouting failure.

he was bought because he was familiar to lvg and psg were sniffing around, not because he was the best (young) winger available at that price point. 34m was enough money to get douglas costa or coman. It got chelsea and arsenal willian and sanchez.

i think lvg is one of the greatest tacticians of his generation and youth developers but transfers and squad building have always been his weakness.

he kept trying to veto bayern getting neuer ffs.

he brings guys he's familiar with wherever he goes and gets transfer control.

No other manager would have gone for blind, romero, an over the hill basti and memphis.

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He has a good reason for it. His training and pre match prep (lets just call it philosophy) is insanely difficult and detailed. It requires a 50+ hour work week for all staff.

Those familiar with the system require less time to teach and more people who know the philosophy speeds up teaching it to the full squad and makes it easier to execute the daily grinding method of video analysis, tactical talks etc. that he does.

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He's like saf. He'll prefer players who get his philosophy and listen like good boys rather than freakishly talented players who do their own thing and disregard the game plan.

This pragmatism, however, often leads to very average squads being built by him that overperform because they follow through on his complex game plan very well.

[–]black_squireMartial -2ポイント-1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Familiarity with the system is not Memphis' problem. It's ability to execute in a faster paced and stronger league. The idea behind getting him was also not short term as to judge his scouting after one season. If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.

Falcao was a scouting failure for example. He was tipped to be an immediate impact to our team offensively but his steep decline was either misjudged or a calculated risk given he was loaned an not bought.

Again, I think the issue here is confusing "season failure" to "scouting failure". Even SAF said you had to disregard the first season of players coming from international leagues. Ronaldo also didn't light up the world in his first season. Sure he was younger and showed more moments of brilliance, but then again he wasn't tossed into a brand new team learning a new system of play and trying to deal with a hapless injury crisis.

Simply put, if we were stronger as a team, Memphis would have already been played out of his funk. Playing him consistently right now is more detrimental to an already woeful season and that's the only reason he's still in poor form. If we had much better players surrounding him that could counter his errors and still grind out wins with or without a functioning LW, he'd have gotten enough play time to work out his kinks.

[–]LDN2016 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

If he proceeds to never become the potential the scouts envisioned, THEN and only then can it be considered a scouting failure.

at this elite level he doesn't have that much time to prove himself.

we aren't going to keep the lw spot open for him to take another year to find his feet, he's already 22 not some teenager.

i'd be shocked if we don't buy a lw or make martial permanent lw and buy a new striker. memphis wont have a starter spot reserved for him to develop at a club with united's ambitions unless he improves very rapidly.

[–]black_squireMartial -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

I find it ridiculous that you're suggesting a 22 year old in his first year in the toughest league in the world should be performing at some remarkable level. That while completely ignoring the circumstances he's surrounded by.

I guess this is what world football has come to.

You're welcome to have your opinion. Memphis doesn't need a spot reserved for him. He'll be given them to adjust and he'll perform next season. Feel free to tag this comment and rub it in my face if he fails woefully.

[–]LDN2016 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Martial's performing at the level expected of memphis.

Martial isn't lighting up the league with 30 goals but he's made a solid contribution with a bit of inconsistency that's allowed at this age.

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Memphis has been way below the expectations of a talented but inconsistent youth.

Ayoze Perez put in better performances for Newcastle in his first season. Memphis has been a pretty big disappointment, there's no sense in glossing over it.

[–]black_squireMartial -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

And by all standards Martial is an exception to the rule not remotely close to being the rule. I have no idea how well Ayoze Perez has done but I'll wager he's had a lot more playing time than Memphis has and that plays a significant role in adapting to a league.

Again, he's been a disappointment this season. No one is arguing that. The argument is if that qualifies as a scouting failure and unless you have a definition of a scouting failure that I'm not privy to, that can't be determined after 1 season. At least not a season that's been plagued by the level of circumstances that's befallen a newly built team. It's just that simple.

[–]LDN2016 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

you have a definition of a scouting failure that I'm not privy to

spending 34m on a player who's performed as badly as memphis with 0 improvement over the course of the season who looks worse now than he did in his first match.

ayoze perez was just an example. there's no shortage of young winger/forwards over the last couple of years who've all played better and adjusted to the PL easily.

It's not like netherlands => uk is a culture shock either. its a coaching setup he's spent massive amounts of time with at the national team so it's not like he's learning the philosophy or system for the first time either.

he has every head start and advantage when it comes to settling in.

compared to martial who moved form sunny monaco to a cold rainy shithole with no notice or preparation to a country where he doesn't speak a word of english and has almost 0 means of communication with lvg.

Martial is an exception to the rule

Which is why he cost so much money. He was well scouted.

Our scouts' job is to find these once in a generation exceptions to the rule.

I don't think you comprehend how high standards are set for transfers at United. This is a club that calls itself the biggest.

This is harsh for a club like Arsenal or Juventus. We're in direct competition with Barca, Bayern and Madrid. Our squad decisions have to be compared with those 3 and only those 3.

Ayoze Perez has done but I'll wager he's had a lot more playing time

He got playing time because he performed. He was brought on from the bench until he won himself a starter spot.

[–]black_squireMartial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The price of a player is a factor of the transfer market and the clubs involved not fully the quality of the player. If you considered DDG a scouting failure in his first season the.n your argument has some basis. Otherwise you're just being unreasonable.

Again the system is obviously not the problem with Memphis it's his personal duel with a higher quality league. Individual players adjust differently and on different teams. Your comparisons remain invalid given that fact alone.

You seem focused on ideas that are irrelevant to Memphis at United. Fan expectations and cost of a player have nothing to do with potential and adaptability to the premier league. It's really just that simple.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

22 is still incredibly young for a footballer. Henry was 23 when he went to arsenal.. he wasn't exactly lighting up the world at Monaco.

[–]LDN2016 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

memphis may turn into a superstar.

he is still going to struggle to keep a spot if he needs another full season or two to start putting in world class performances.

the bar is raised in modern football.

nite dis the biggest club in the world and theres too much money riding on immediate success

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coman was good scouting. memphis was not. the fact that he's needed a season to adjust and still looks just as bad as day 1 is a filure of scouting.

regardless of how his career winds up 5 years from now.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Was De Gea a scouting failure? He made so many mistakes in his first season, lost us a number of points.

[–]black_squireMartial 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the most valid example of differentiating between a failed maiden season and a scouting failure.

[–]LDN2016 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

that season was a botched gk transition. his mistakes directly cost us the title.

but theres an enormous fuckign gulf in the quality of performances between de gea and memphis. he had his fair share of world class performances.

de gea was as good in 11/12 as martial has been in 15/16

thats the level of (in)consistency you expect from elite young players because they are putting in world class performances but with the occasional silly mistake or howler of a match.

memphis has had maybe 1 world class match. 0 in the league.

worst of all he's shown 0 improvement since match 1. if anything he's playing worse now than he did at the start of the season.

[–]TudoorsYoung -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

We did not buy Memphis for this season, we bought him for the future. That's what scouting youth talent is all about. 22 is still young for a footballer. 2 years from now we can have this discussion, but as of now it's stupid.

[–]manutd_[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree with this completely. Memphis replaced Ashley Young at LW and hasn't delivered a third of his output and isn't getting better fast enough. Its a scouting failure.

[–]icesurfer10Dave 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's still a chance he could turn this ship around. I'm not sure what it is he's missing since coming here but I hope he can find it.

[–]Launch_a_poo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, I think he'll become a good buy eventually. The potential is there.

[–]LDN2016 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think he's going to end up somewhere between nani and ando.

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you see the potential and then you compare the skills to a younger martial and its clear how far behind the lad is.

[–]jbiresqHerrera 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

His biggest problems seem to be adjusting to the pace, intensity and physicality of the Prem but that's not something that could have been scouted. He was rated as one of the brightest prospects in Europe for a reason and we've certainly seen him show it in some of his displays.

[–]manutd_[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Hes had problems keeping possession, with decision making and with defensive errors too in addition to the pace. I am surprised our scouting didn't catch all of this.

[–]TudoorsYoung -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps they did, those sound characteristic of young players however.

[–]jbiresqHerrera -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

All that stuff comes because he's facing a level of opposition much greater than he's used to. The scouting staff saw something worthwhile in him and thought those problems (which AFAIK were issues at PSV) could be ironed out with proper coaching. This year was always going to be an adjustment and I believe the club knew that.

[–]LDN2016 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That argument just doesn't fly when Martial's performing as well as he is.

Martial's not world class but is making the sort of mistakes with the sort of inconsistency that you expect of a soon to be world class young forward.

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Memphis has been way below the level expected even if you account for the problems you expect from a youth signing.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

So psg, bayern, and United's scouting systems don't know what they are doing...

[–]manutd_[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bayern know what they're doing which is why they were never in for Memphis.

[–]TheBlackSun8Herrera -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Eh, there were clear sources that psg, bayern, United and Liverpool were the clubs in for him.

[–]manutd_[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liverpool and United were most eager. PSG were also interested though not to that extent and he was never a Bayern target because they had (correctly) identified other targets as it later turned out.

[–]ttjoelkerMemphis 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd consider him a young player who has not yet acclimatized to the PL and to playing against tough opponents. he didn't transfer here from a top notch team, he came here from PSV. The PL is the toughest league in the world. Give him time, he will be great.

[–]IDespot90Martial 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

U have point, some players take time to adapt, but modern football is not so kind to giving player time.

[–]CalimariaeSolskjaer -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Memphis looked excellent on paper. It's difficult to predict how a player will adapt to a new environment.

I would not put it down as a scouting failure, no.

[–]manutd_[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the scouts and management do try and make this prediction. They have to make a judgement on whether the player will be a good fit for the new environment or else what is the rationale for bringing the player in.

In this case the judgement has been off the mark IMO.

[–]MisterAlexL -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Too early to tell.