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Hillary Clinton’s “tone”-gate disaster: Why her campaign’s condescending Bernie dismissal should concern Democrats everywhere If the Clinton campaign can't deal with Bernie's "tone," how are they supposed to handle someone like Donald Trump? (salon.com)

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[–]TripleEEE1682 [スコア非表示] x2 (381子コメント)

As a woman, I hate her use of the gender card. She has set feminism back by decades.

When he talks about a corrupt system, which she has participated in, she makes it personal; "how dare you call me corrupt!" That particularly galls me, because in the service of her own ambitions, she is undermining his very legitimate concern about campaign finance and the role of money in governance. She makes it personal, when he's speaking systemically.

As a feminist, I find this particularly annoying, because she is using a ploy to counter his very reasonable concern about $$ in gov't, and grounding it in the very type of strategy that a non-feminist would accuse a woman of using.

Hard to explain, but there's a narrative out there about what women can bring to leadership roles - that women have unique qualities that might be of benefit when wielding power. I guess I would have hoped that those qualities didn't include emotional manipulation. While we are all capable - both men and women - of emotionally manipulating one another - this is one of those criticisms that men use to explain why women shouldn't be in the role of power.

Frankly, her taking Sanders critique of $$$ and gov't, and her fees from Goldman Sachs (and all the other ways she has financially benefited from her role in government which are substantial - she's amassed a fortune) and saying "you aren't being nice", falls right in that category of manipulation.

She does me and all my sisters a disservice by introducing that type of BS into the discourse. Hillary, if you are going to run on the fact of your gender, then demonstrate the really worthy female qualities which would, in fact, be of use in leadership: consensus builder, listener, networker, communicator... I'll go along with some hesitation, because I think it isn't enough to simply be a woman, but rather a woman who can also be a great President. But make a better case than this, please.

EDIT: Many thanks for the Gold! I've never gotten gold before... :-)

[–]harborwolf [スコア非表示]  (208子コメント)

She can't make a better case... she isn't those things that you named. Elizabeth Warren, on the other hand should be the ACTUAL first female president of the United States.

Hillary THINKS she's earned it, and she might end up winning it, but she doesn't deserve it.

[–]Acedrew89 [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

Elizabeth Warren

This is the correct answer to Hillary.

[–]Bashface [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

This might sound sexist but I wonder how the election would have looked if she couldn't play the gender card where Elisabeth Warren ran instead of Bernie.

[–]magniankh [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Your comment confuses me. Why would Hillary play any cards if Elizabeth Warren ran ?

Anyway, if Elizabeth Warren and Bernie were running against each other, they probably would have teamed by now, and named one or the other their vice pres.

[–]Tasgall [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Your comment confuses me. Why would Hillary play any cards if Elizabeth Warren ran ?

He's just saying, "What would Hillary's campaign look like if she couldn't use the gender card?"

[–]TheRoadHome [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

This is my dream ticket.

I would love to see it. The opening of the first debate would go something like this:

Sanders and Warren are standing at their podiums as the cameras pan in. They start walking towards each other. They meet in the middle and high five.
"By our powers combined...."
"...let's wreck this shit."

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]Purpleclone [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Hillary would have been ruined if a charismatic left of center woman like Warren ran. But that's not the point of this election. If he wins, good on the movement. But if Bernie loses, it'll rile people up to hate the establishment even more. Warren steps in at 2020, leads the movement with charisma, experience, and formal education, the movement wins double-fold.

    [–]Acedrew89 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Not sure that's sexist, but definitely an interesting thought experiment. I think it could have fallen into a "my version of feminism is the correct version" debate, but I doubt Hillary would have taken that battle on as she would most likely lose give EW's immense support for/from the feminist community.

    [–]dannytheguitarist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Not according to r/hillaryclinton. The fact that you support any female politician who isn't her is sexist.

    Sample comment from that thread, copypasta'd: "I can't be sexist because I support (female politician)."

    [–]RadioHitandRun [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    People keep saying she beds to stay where she's at....I disagree. Can your imagine having to finally choose between two good people? The debates would be...boring but hilarious.

    [–]Nuke_It [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Or Jill Stein...but that's a long shot.

    [–]French_Mustache [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    I'll throw in Tulsi Gabbard.

    [–]kanyeguisada [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    I really don't know enough about her or her positions to jump on that bandwagon, heard some conservative things that give me pause.

    [–]OrangeAdventure [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Her dad is a well known Republican politician in Hawaii. She shared most of his opinions until joining the military, at which point she became a progressive after seeing the damage that American imperialism can do.

    [–]OrangeAdventure [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I like Gabbard's opinions but she's way too inexperienced right now, not to mention too young to run. Let her run for president in ten years or so though and I would happily vote for her.

    [–]rekqs [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm loving Tulsi <3

    [–]mapleshmaple [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The biggest problem with Gabbard is her support for right-wing groups in India that suppress minorities.

    [–]weekendofsound [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    And Bernie, to be honest.

    [–]Acedrew89 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    As a Bernie supporter through and through, I think EW would do better against Hillary and would still have been a proponent of most of Bernie's stances.

    [–]OrangeAdventure [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Considering Warren has been a Democrat for decades, she wouldn't have the outsider status that Sanders has.

    [–]mapleshmaple [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I prefer Bernie over Warren, but in the current political climate, Warren would have done much better. All (unfounded) claims of sexism and misogyny that have been leveled at Bernie would have been non-existent. All fanfare about a possible woman president would have been split on both sides instead of favoring one candidate over the other. All claims of being a "fake" or "convenient" Democrat would have also been thrown out because Warren's been a Democrat for ages.

    [–]navi555 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    I'd second that nomination.

    The idea that Bernie supporters are supporting him because of his gender, completely ignore how much his supporters respect Elizabeth Warren.

    [–]YouVersusTheSea [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I gotta be honest here, though. I've lost a lot of respect for Warren this cycle. Her refusal to endorse a candidate is very frustrating. It's like she's playing both sides and I always held her out to be real with the public. She's doing too much politicking. I'm a Bernie supporter, but I think I'd have more respect for Warren than I currently do now even if she had come out for Hillary.

    Don't get me wrong, I still agree with her views and think she's a great senator but the political posturing she's done over the past few months had knocked her down a few pegs in my book. She should've called Hillary out on her bullshit instead of passive aggressively subtweeting her support for Bernie while not actually supporting him in any meaningful way.

    I'd also rather see her become a SCOTUS Justice than president.

    [–]UnkleTBag [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    That's why the Jill Stein protest vote (if Clinton is nominated) would be so perfect.

    コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

      [–]Sysiphuslove [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Hillary THINKS she's earned it, and she might end up winning it, but she doesn't deserve it.

      It's galling, because she didn't earn it any more than you earn a promotion at work by being passed over for it the first time.

      She lost the first round, not because of bad luck or misaligned stars or whatever a Clinton tells themselves when they lose an election. We saw a better choice that time and some of us are seeing one now. We don't owe anything to her ambitions.

      [–]kemushi_warui [スコア非表示]  (118子コメント)

      She might end up winning the nomination, but she'll lose the general, just like John Kerry did.

      [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (114子コメント)

      The only reason she stands a chance is because the Republicans are going to nominate Donald Trump. I never understood this assumption we have been fed nonstop for the past two years that Hillary Clinton will be this amazing, unbeatable general election candidate. People don't like her. They have never liked her. And whenever she is in the news a lot people like her even less.

      [–]imliterallyfive [スコア非表示]  (86子コメント)

      A Clinton v Trump election will be the absolute worst choice I've ever seen. I don't even know who would win. So many people hate the both of them. I don't think it will be easy to determine the outcome of this election.

      [–]thirdfounder [スコア非表示]  (50子コメント)

      it is easy. he is going to mince her.

      rewind six months. everyone i knew understood that Jeb Bush was the eventual candidate for the GOP. he was perceived as an adroit policy wonk, popular winner of previous campaigns for executive office in a swing state, inheritor of a tarnished but still powerful political legacy, and choice of the party donors. in many ways a superior candidate to Hillary.

      how long did it take for Donald Trump to annihilate him? bury his political career so deep that it will never regrow?

      and then he did it again to Marco Rubio, the presumptive new generation of Bush acolyte and "Republican savior". he couldn't be elected to a town board now in Florida.

      and now he's doing it again to Ted Cruz, a very talented politico in his own right.

      give that kind of political talent seven months to work on Hillary.

      does anyone seriously think that Hillary -- again, an inferior candidate to any of these three -- is going to fare better? i don't even think it will be close. Trump is a generational political talent, whether people want to admit it now or not, and he isn't going to be denied by the likes of Hillary.

      [–]w1czr1923 [スコア非表示]  (24子コメント)

      Eh, I have to disagree that Hillary is in ANYWAY an inferior candidate to ANY of the people you named. Based on current polling, she is still beating trump by sizable margins because no matter how much people hate hillary, people hate trump way more.

      [–]anthropwn [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

      she is still beating trump by sizable margins because no matter how much people hate hillary

      Those polls are literally meaningless right now. Trump, regardless of the message the establishment is peddling, is a long way from dumb or naive, and he's a master manipulator of the media narrative. Those polls reflect today's Trump...the guy trying to beat a stable full of actual, bonafide sociopaths, and to do it he has to appeal to an incredibly fractured constituency. Until he has the nomination. Then he can pivot to the middle and you'll see pre-2008 Donald Trump again. The reasonable, measured, highly savvy and intelligent guy that used to get called in front of congressional committees to tell them how screwed up the system is. That guy destroys Hillary in the general. If he doesn't pivot, Hillary wins, but seeing how adeptly he's crushed the GOP so far, I don't anticipate him falling apart in the general.

      Party line Democrat voters need to be VERY worried about a Trump nomination. Hillary is an incredibly weak candidate, and it doesn't look like the DNC is going to allow a Sanders run. Hillary's entire election strategy relies on the opposing candidate adhering to the establishment's 'rules' for how these things are supposed to work. Trump, for better or worse, does not care about those rules and will use anything and everything against her.

      [–]Draper_Don09 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      The reasonable, measured, highly savvy and intelligent guy that used to get called in front of congressional committees to tell them how screwed up the system is.

      I was watching some of old videos of Trump doing this, he's like a completely different person. He was stoic, straight forward and honest.

      [–]thirdfounder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      that's how you know that his campaign persona is deliberate. he's doing what he's doing in order to win, not because it's who he intrinsically is. he's also been hinting/winking all along for more astute and attentive voters.

      [–]mportz [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      Party line Democrat voters need to be VERY worried about a Trump nomination. Hillary is an incredibly weak candidate, and it doesn't look like the DNC is going to allow a Sanders run.

      This is also assuming Hillary doesn't get indicted.

      [–]anthropwn [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

      6 months ago I would've agreed with you. There's pretty solid evidence that the initial leaks that ultimately sparked the investigation into her emails/server were the product of Valerie Jarrett, and it's well known that the Obamas do not think much of Hillary. I fully believed that the scandal would be escalated from within until right prior to the primary season and then a dark horse Obama crony candidate (Michelle, maybe Valerie herself, etc.) would be fielded at the last minute, which would deny Hillary the time for a rebuttal and shorten the time the public and media had to vet the new candidate.

      But....that didn't happen, and Hillary is still stringing along, and we're long past the point of the introduction of a dark horse, unless they're planning some shenanigans at the convention, which would be suicide for the DNC given Sanders' popularity.

      I think word has been handed down from somewhere that Hillary isn't going to get indicted and that she will be the candidate.

      But, I still maintain that, regardless of who she runs against, Hillary Clinton will never be president.

      コメントをもっと表示する (8 返事)

        [–]thirdfounder [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

        remember when Jeb was leading by sizable margins? yeah, me too. then came the first GOP debate.

        and i think we can end the false equivalence between 'likability' and 'electability' right now just by looking around: who is currently the only candidate with net positive likability ratings? and who is he losing to, and by how much?

        lastly -- it's not really up for debate that Hillary is a poor politician. listen to her tell you so herself in a mind-bending example of the very premise she's articulating. maybe you can argue that 'poor politician' and 'poor candidate' are not the same thing, but it won't matter if she can't win.

        [–]w1czr1923 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

        The margin started by 60 points and now hes down to less than 10 with the most liberal states ahead. It's not impossible for him in ANYWAY to win. I think this whole "he is being mean to me thing" is just in prep for the onslaught trump will drop on her. He will be vicious. If she takes the "he's mean" approach...Trump will lose ever MORE woman voters

        [–]thirdfounder [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        if you think that an American presidential candidate can win a general election by seeking pity by adopting victimhood, i think you will be very surprised.

        but you needn't be, in part because that isn't going to happen -- even with Clinton's sometimes-clueless advisory team, which has flirted with this notion too much already for comfort. Salon is right to call this trial-ballooning of her victim status a 'disaster'. we are looking for a leader, not a victim. the human animal understands that instinctively, women no different than men.

        コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

          [–]madamz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

          I'm no fan of Hillary, and she may well get eaten alive by Trump, but I'd gladly take her over Bush, Rubio, or especially Ted Cruz.

          コメントをもっと表示する (24 返事)

            [–]InvisibleRings [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

            With the hugely negative favorability ratings they each have, some sort of actually viable third party candidate is bound to make an appearance.

            [–]BunnySelfDestruct [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

            The system is set up to prevent that. All other candidates have to register to run extremely early. National coverage will only focus on the DNC and GOP candidates. There will be a rehearsed speech about how voting for anyone else is throwing your vote away at the start of every public statement by both parties and only one of the two parties is going to put any funding/effort into their down ballot elections.

            [–]Gynsyng [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

            Trump vs Cruz vs Clinton vs Sanders cage match.

            [–]thekozmicpig [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            THUNDERDOME!

            Four men enter! One man leaves! Four men enter! One man leaves!

            We use man in the scientific way!

            [–]SilentPlanet222 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

            That would be fucking crazy. A 4 way race, and I feel like it could be pretty close. I'd love that honestly, it'd be an interesting election.

            [–]bashar_al_assad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            It'd just give Cruz the white house.

            [–]solepsis [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

            Yeah, Cruz would win that because it would end up being decided by the establishment republican controlled House after none of them got enough electoral college votes

            [–]hoorayb33r [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            We need to contact MTV and get Celebrity Deathmatch back on the air.

            [–]wheresbicki [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Nicolas Cage match

            [–]BrieferMadness [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Do you smelllllllllllll what The Bern is cookin'?

            [–]bashar_al_assad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            That gives the presidency to Cruz.

            [–]HeyZuesHChrist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            If Sanders loses to Clinton, then it should be Sanders. He should run third party.

            [–]notduddeman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            It might end up being a republican who does it too. It's their last card if they can't block trump at the convention.

            [–]tollforturning [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Jesse Ventura ftw

            [–]i_shit_my_spacepants [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            And that, as always, will clinch the win for whichever of the big two they are least similar to.

            [–]mischiffmaker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Clinton vs. Trump = Bernie write-in.

            [–]RadioHitandRun [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Worse then Kerry/bush?

            [–]ethertrace [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            And, as a friend of mine pointed out, it would destroy any chance for a broader economic justice movement for decades to come. You'll have poor white people aligning on one side and poor people of color aligning on the other because they're more concerned with Trump's white supremacy than his stated economic priorities. And we'll continue the nation's history of rich white men telling poor white people that their problems are caused by poor brown people, and the reality of their mutual exploitation by the rich gets lost in the ensuing xenophobic clamor and bigotry.

            [–]dannytheguitarist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Jeb Bush was the Republican golden boy and Trump turned him into an ineffectual wimp. Hillary stands no chance. And I say this as someone who hates Trump.

            [–]Dunkh [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            It might be set up that way. If Clinton's skeleton army had stayed behind closed doors, she would have been a shoe-in for the Presidency. Trump is playing this way over the top. All the protest violence being heaped on Sander's supporters really puts him in a bad light.

            With Sanders out of play, you have the obnoxious corporate candidate vs the sensible female candidate. Who would you hate worse? Clinton or Trump?

            Hypothesis is that this was planned since 2008. The expansion in technology and global communications wasn't accounted for.

            [–]the_cunt_muncher [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Clinton v Trump election

            Would literally be the most disappointing batch of candidates in my lifetime. In previous elections at least one of the final two candidates was somebody I could see myself voting for. But I can't in good conscience vote for either Trump or Hillary.

            [–]TehSeraphim [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Douche V. Turd all over again.

            [–]tRon_washington [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Literally Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich IRL

            [–]someone447 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Are you under 16 years old? Because although Trump is the worst candidate since George Wallace, Hillary is better than either Gore or Bush.

            コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

              [–]TCsnowdream [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              And by pushing her inevitability they may cause supporters and voters to stay home.

              Unless they switch gears in the general with pleas of 'it's not inevitable anymore. Oh noes!!'

              [–]AthleticsSharts [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Which would demonstrate weakness. At this point they've kinda painted themselves into a corner.

              [–]Billych [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              It's especially troubling when polls say John Kasich could beat her.

              [–]empanadacat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              And those who like her already know they like her. There aren't any convinceables. Her poll numbers are notorious for only ever trending in one direction. It's going to be a lonely general election for her primary supporters when they realize they're all alone in the general.

              [–]ImCreeptastic [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              I don't know how true this is, I heard it second hand, but someone was saying that if it's Trump v. Clinton, Trump wins since he's polling better, but if it's Trump v. Sanders, Sanders will win in a landslide.

              [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              I don't think I have seen a poll showing Trump beating Clinton, but the margin between Clinton and Trump is much narrower than the margin between Sanders and Trump. But general election polls before the primary is even over are not particularly useful.

              [–]dmaterialized [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              Clinton holds the rare distinction of polling that continually decreases the longer she's in the public spotlight. It's happened before, in 2008, and it's happening now. What this means is that the more people listen to her and see her behavior, the less they like her. This is the exact opposite of what you want in a political candidate.

              [–]pastpretzaltime [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              what is going to happen is Trump gets the boot from the repubs, runs third party. We have a 3 way race and no one gets past the post. The house picks there repub establishment candidate and gets to pick a SC justice, dems take back the senate. the world slowly dies a climate dead. THIS IS THE REPUBLICAN PLAN, GG AMERICA

              [–]itmovesallbyitself [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              I don't particularly like Hillary, she doesn't seem likeable or charismatic, yet she's ahead in the primary which means people are voting for her. I can only conclude that a lot of people out there like her, but she's just unpopular in our social bubble on the internet (reddit and any related sites we may go to). Hell, I only know one person irl who actually likes her.

              [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              People are voting for her in primaries. That is true. But primary elections are super low turnout and usually divided by party. Out of all eligible voters maybe 20-30% are voting in the primary, and half of those are voting for the other party. So when she is winning a primary with 55% of votes cast that could be as little as 5% of eligible voters in the state. Things will be very different come the general election.

              コメントをもっと表示する (17 返事)

                [–]SkoobyDoo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                As someone who generally prefers to observe politics from afar, your statement got me thinking, and that thought process began with looking up why Kerry lost. I vaguely recall the election (It happened while I was in high school) so I didn't have a good idea what either candidates positions really were. Here's what one of the first results says:

                John Kerry lost the 2004 Presidential election because he failed to distinguish himself and his positions from the incumbent President Bush.

                Reiterating the fact that I don't pay close attention to elections, I feel like I have no good idea what Hillary's about except outrage at various candidates statements and behavior, and at the accusations slung at her. I have no idea what her stance is on really any issue.

                At the very least, I know Trump's (outrageous) stance on several issues. The reddit machine has also made sure I'm at least somewhat aware of Bernie's motivation.

                Not a lot of point to the post other than "You said clinton will lose the same way kerry lost, and I feel the same way now about clinton as I did for kerry back in high school when my opinion didn't matter anyways."

                [–]kemushi_warui [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                The reason the current situation reminds me of Bush vs Kerry is that the Ds also had a candidate no one was excited about, but he was up against a guy who was clearly the worst president in history, so they thought it wouldnt matter.

                Remember, here was the guy who 'stole' the election in 2000, who lied about WMDs, who declared "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq, who was an international laughingstock (yes he was - I lived abroad at the time, and it was cringeworthy to have to 'explain' Bush's appeal).

                So anyway, there was simply no way even Kerry could lose against such a joke of a candidate, right? People would show up in droves just to vote against Bush!

                Sound familiar?

                Yeah, I remember the day after the election, as Democrats started to realize they had another 4 years of Bush ahead. It was like waking up with a hangover, going "What the hell were the American people thinking last night?" but there you had it: Kerry ended up energizing no one, and Bush took it.

                Now apply this to Trump vs Hillary. Obviously it's not a clear parallel, but as far as counting on people showing up to support the establishment candidate just because the other guy is obviously bad is a dangerous game to play.

                [–]inyouraeroplane [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                That's how I see this going. When Democrats nominate a safe, qualified, but boring candidate, like Michael Dukakis or Al Gore or John Kerry, they lose. When they nominate someone who electrifies the base and gets people out to vote like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama, they win.

                The only reason this might not hold is that Trump and Cruz scare a lot of people. Trump says a bunch of shitty things and his policies are downright dangerous if you're Hispanic or Muslim. Cruz is a minor theocrat who no one, not even Republicans in Congress, likes as a person. His policies are more dangerous if you're a woman who wants access to abortion or are gay and want to stay married to your partner. Clinton is better than those options, but not by much.

                [–]boliby [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                Every day that Elizabeth Warren fails to endorse the only true progressive candidate in this race, and the only candidate with a shot at stopping a Trump presidency, she loses more of my faith.

                [–]harborwolf [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                That's the one thing that she has(n't) done that I completely don't agree with.

                I think she realized early that Hillary would take the nomination and saw no reason to support ANYONE let alone the presumptive 'loser'...

                I wish she had come out early for him though.

                [–]boliby [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                It's just started to make me think she may just be an establishment player shouting a progressive message.

                [–]domdest [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                Sigh...how different all this would have been if Warren had run. Bernie would have conceded to Warren in a heartbeat if both of them had run.

                [–]976chip [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                This. Whenever I say I don't trust Hillary or say I don't want to vote for her, I get accused of thinking too much like a man or not wanting a woman president. The only reason I support Bernie is because Warren isn't running.

                [–]druidjc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                Elizabeth Warren

                Not only the first woman president but also the first "Native American" president!

                [–]SnuggleMuffin42 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

                Where was Warren when Massachusetts voted? Hell, where is she now?

                She has shown zero leadership during this primaries, even though she's perfectly aligned with Sanders. She has proven to be nothing more than a follower, a career politician thinking of the next appointment. She has failed the progressive movement, and she doesn't deserve nor will be the leader of the progressive movement in the United States.

                [–]jonnysunshine [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                Massachusetts isn't the progressive stronghold you think it is. It's a left leaning state with large geographic areas that vote republican. That's why MA has and has had several republican governors over the past 50 years.

                Don't trash Elizabeth Warren when you should point the blame at the voters of the state. I voted for Bernie. But I won't bring down Warren because the likelihood of her swaying voters in a very Clinton friendly state is asinine.

                [–]jude8098 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                It's got a big city in a small state so democrats have an advantage there. And I feel like lefties here are more loyal to the party than ideology compared to some other places. I do think Warren could have made a difference in such a close race though.

                [–]indigo121 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                I can see where you're coming from, but there's also value to her holding back. If she speaks up and ties herself to Sanders, and he doesn't win, then in 8 years she could have her chances ruined because people tie her to an already failed campaign. And she is the next candidate progressives should put forwards. Politics is a game, it's not always beneficial to play all your cards on the table.

                [–]Clicint [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                Meanwhile Tulsi Gabbard literally committed political suicide to get behind this movement, and she's young and had a chance to go as far as she wanted to in politics.

                [–]WhiplashOne [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                But you know what? At age 34, if she can get on the Sanders train (provided he wins) she could very well wind up as his VP pick or in his cabinet. That'd be a pretty bulletproof resume at her age.

                Is it just a power grab? Maybe. But resigning so publicly and subsequently backing sanders was a big gamble that could backfire if Hillary is the nominee. Just my 2 cents.

                [–]Clicint [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                Even if Bernie loses, I want Gabbard back in politics. If this country is going to survive, we need more people like her.

                [–]WhiplashOne [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                Definitely agreed. If we get a Donald Trump or Ted Cruz she could conceivably run in 2020, provided she maintains a high profile.

                [–]Clicint [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                And if she runs in 2020 I will throw myself behind her 110%. Her actions this year showed that she cares more about the American people than she does about her political career, and that's a big deal to me. I think a lot of other people feel the same way.

                I also can't decide if Trump or Cruz would be worse. After seeing Cruz's foreign policy advisor, I'm starting think he might be the WORST option, but then there's Trump and his wall nonsense.

                [–]vegetablesareawesome [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                There may be a job for her in either a Sanders or a Clinton Whitehouse. It wouldn't make sense for her to alienate Clinton that early in the primaries. It would have been incredibly risky.

                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                  [–]dannytheguitarist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  Careful. This is one of the arguments r/hillaryclinton claims is sexist. Doesn't matter that you'd vote for another woman, it's sexist that you won't vote for HER.

                  Read the comments here and see for yourself; https://www.reddit.com/r/hillaryclinton/comments/4ck09q/sexist_attacks_against_hillary_clinton_bingo/

                  Here's one choice quote from that thread: "I can't be sexist because I support (female politician)."

                  [–]pohatu [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  She's done everything the powers that be told her to do. She sold out to Wall Street, got behind TPP, got senator on her resume, got sec of state on her resume, pandered to AIPAC, taken money from who knows in her super PAC.

                  She has jumped through all the hoops to prove to "them" that she's loyal to the oligarchy, in fact, she's part of the oligarchy.

                  So in her mind she deserves it for playing their game.

                  But in our minds that is as much a reason to not vote for her as any. Sanders supporters are saying the game is rigged and we're sick of it. If Sanders was playing the same game and just not doing it as well, then she'd be the easy choice. But he's changing the rules. He's the disruptive technology of elections. And they truly find that threatening.

                  If Sanders wins he'll have proven you don't have to play their game. That's danger zone.

                  If Clinton wins it will prove that those who don't play are always left out.

                  But then there's Trump, who also, though in a different way, is not playing their game. And the same powers hate him and his supporters.

                  So if it comes to voting for either Clinton or Trump, it might not be as much about issues for some of us, it might be more about superpacs and funding and Wall Street bailouts and exporting of jobs and that sort of stuff. It might be less about party and more about throwing the system out, as much as possible.

                  Ranted a little, but yeah, she has earned it, by ' their ' standards. But 'they' are the problem for a lot of voters.

                  [–]dibship [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                  thank goodness theres a very good chance warren will be the vp pick if sanders gets in, and the president in 4-8 years. remember everyone, they probably forced biden not to run, dnc has it in the bag for hillary.

                  [–]JimothyC [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                  I dunno about that. VP is a powerless position although it is common to see VP's eventually run Warren would be sacrificing years of her senator career to run when she will be extremely old. yes I realize Warren will be the same age as Bernie in 8 years but he is a man possessed and most people at that age cannot keep up with what he is doing now.

                  [–]dibship [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  i dont think she wants to do it, but i think she might feel its worthwhile for the downticket effectiveness

                  [–]JimothyC [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  I think Tulsa Gabbard is more likely. She has foreign affairs experience, veteran, more moderate than Bernie. The perfect VP if I have ever seen one for Bernie.

                  [–]van_morrissey [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  I agree with you up until you say Elizabeth Warren. She should not be president because 1)she said she didn't want to run because she thinks she can do more good as an influential senator And 2) she is probably right.

                  I would never advocate someone running for president without their heart in it, and honestly, I don't know we can afford losing her in the Senate.

                  [–]harborwolf [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  I don't want her this year, but in the next election cycle? Sure.

                  I'm a MA native, I don't want her to leave as my senator, but she's going to be 'it' when her chance comes around again, and until then she'll be doing her best in the Senate

                  [–]mischiffmaker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  So much this.

                  [–]Amayetli [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                  I wished she claim being Cherokee, it's hard for me to overlook that fact since she benefitted from it.

                  [–]harborwolf [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  Well, she 'used it' to get recognition from the places she worked, but she never used it to get into college or actually GET a job...

                  Still a bit slimy, but according to her she was told her whole life that she was part cherokee by her parents.

                  [–]Amayetli [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  Of course she's been told her whole life, she's a politican.

                  [–]greyfade [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  Sadly, Elizabeth Warren has said repeatedly (even on Quora) that she'd never run, even if asked. She feels she'd make a greater contribution in the Senate.

                  [–]harborwolf [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  I have heard that... I just don't think she'll be able to stand up to the pressure that the democratic party will eventually put on her.

                  She's 66 now and presuming that Hillary wins the presidency and re-election she would be 74 and have one more shot at it.

                  I guess we'll see in 4 or 8 years...

                  [–]forgettableme [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                  I think if Warren had run instead of Sanders we would be having a different discussion,and all the feminists out there who want to vote for Clinton just because she's a woman would have thought just a little more about which woman they wanted in the white house.

                  [–]DoritoStyle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                  Why does it matter who is first?

                  コメントをもっと表示する (19 返事)

                    [–]emily_waves [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

                    Yep I feel the same way as a woman.

                    And she constantly uses her gender. CNN: what will be different from you and the Obama admin. Clinton: "well I think that's obvious, I'll be the first woman presiiiident of the uniiiiteed states!

                    Then she uses specific phrasing like: I'm being treated differently. I'm being held to a different standard. She uses these phrases to deflect legitimate criticisms and avoid having to answer. And these phrases are specifically worded to imply sexism.

                    I'm actually appalled at how many women aren't turned off by this. But then, I know a lot of women who don't give a fuck -- and just know it will be the first women president -- so it has to happen. People that are just voting because their genitals match, and don't care about anything else.

                    People are selfish and stupid. Women voting just to get a woman in office isn't that surprising. The same reason that while I think feminism fights for some great things, it also often overlooks male issues and also focuses purely on benefitting only themselves (individuals are selfish).

                    That's why I often struggle when people ask me to care about others. Naturally I do. I'm a caring person, as its my personality type. But I also see how often people are only out for themselves. And never has this been more evident, then the DNC race. You got a legitimate leftist, who has the chance to bring on change that so many have talked about for decades. Ideas that would benefit the whole of society. Which is what our ideology is supposed to stand for. But do people care? Fuck no. First women president!

                    I'll also never understand, how any women can take Clinton seriously. This is the same woman, that had no issues taking part in slut shaming Lewinsky, and throwing all those women under the bus that wanted to speak out on her Husband. Hillary is not responsible for her husbands actions, but she as well as the DNC - had no qualms throwing these victims under the bus and silencing them. And so I can't even take her seriously when she says she's a champion for women's rights. Sanders has a better track record then she does.

                    [–]pizzabash [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                    Also there was that debate question to Bernie about him standing in the way of history by not just letting Hillary be nominated...

                    [–]emily_waves [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                    I cringed so hard when that was asked.

                    It feels like this has been in the making for years though. I've seen so many things in the media pushing the narrative of a first woman president. I've seen a huge push of activist/extremist in the last 5 years now (some groups being good, and some that were horribly misguided or downright terrible).

                    I think it will get very vicious in the General Election, as people will call you a traitor if you are a woman, standing in the way of history. Ugh. And of course, the GOP has their worst election of all time. And Trump is going to play right into the sexism narrative, rallying everyone for it.

                    Which absolutely sickens me, given how I feel about Clinton. I truly believe she's a fraud, and has a terrible history when it comes to women. But that's how it will play out. Better support her.

                    [–]unknown_lamer [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    And yet the same media and political machinery has prevented the last two women running for President (as Greens) from even being permitted to participate in the Presidential debates...

                    [–]HILLARY_EATS_BABIES [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    That's not saying much. A talking dinosaur could run as Green and corporate media wouldn't touch it.

                    [–]Fire_away_Fire_away [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    That cant be real

                    [–]pizzabash [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RAlA-B9xzc

                    best video i could fine in 30 seconds if theres a better one someone pls post it

                    [–]veggiesama [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    She's a 2nd generation feminist, and that makes her perspective easier to understand. 1st genners fought for equal rights (voting, legal, etc.) 2nd genners attempted to infiltrate systems of power to become legislators, CEOs, and such. They were interested in economic opportunities and making the system work for them. 3rd genners are the postmodern feminists of the bunch, who open themselves up to a ton of criticism because they are trying to attack and disassemble the very systems themselves in order to expose subjugation (patriarchy, "mansplaining", etc.)

                    Clinton is a 2nd genner. Becoming president is a victory for feminists in the sense that the final glass ceiling is shattered, blazing a path for future women. However, women today have more 3rd gen leanings because they recognize symbolic gestures are not the end of the conversation, and there are still important hurdles that are deeper, systematic problems without easy answers.

                    [–]sushisection [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                    Hillary didn't even divorce Bill after the blowjob scandal.

                    I don't understand how she can call herself a strong, independent woman when she chose to stay married to a cheating manwhore just for the political power.

                    [–]darling_lycosidae [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                    Well, there's probably a lot more as to why she stayed with Bill other than political power, and I think she should still be respected for choosing to stay in the relationship and work on it. What is unforgivable is her treatment of the victims. Let's not focus on her personal reasons to stay with a lying adulterer, whether it was love or religion or power or weakness. She silenced and shamed the women who came forward in the scandal, and that is where the betrayal is.

                    [–]sushisection [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    I dont know much about her silencing the victims. Any names I should look up?

                    [–]leakylou [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    I've been thinking the same. The conclusion I come to is that they are a political marriage. She would've lost power leaving Bill and it would've made him look very bad. At least that may have been the thought process.

                    [–]hellosexynerds [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Yes. I'm getting tired of the current push from the Hillary camp to insinuate that anyone voting for Bernie is doing it only because they are sexist. I've seen 3 facebook posts already this morning that said that. I can't believe it. Even stranger is calling the people out who will decide to vote for Jill Stein instead of her if she is nominated as sexists. That is just obnoxiously ridiculous.

                    Was I sexist when I decided to vote for Obama instead of Palin?

                    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                      [–]peterkeats [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      She makes it personal, when he's speaking systemically.

                      This is a succinct way to sum her up. Everything is a personal attack against her. It's not a problem with the funding, or the legislation, or the moderators. She takes it all as a personal attack against her.

                      I don't blame her, conservatives have it out for her personally. But it does not make her a better candidate.

                      [–]cogman10 [スコア非表示]  (27子コメント)

                      Yup, it drives me nuts that she is playing the "I'm a woman" card so heavily. She may have more ground to go after Trump over his sexist comments, but paying the card for the sake of the card is just annoying. The fact that she falls back so heavily on this makes her look like she has little more to offer.

                      I think Obama did it right when he ran, I don't think I ever heard him mention race, even though it was certainly a big stick to swing.

                      Certainly, lambaste away when sexist or veiled sexist comments are made. I think it is good to expose people being sexist. But Bernie from everything I've seen is not sexist, racist, or bigoted. Trying to paint him as such is dishonest.

                      [–]chowderbags [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                      I think Obama did it right when he ran, I don't think I ever heard him mention race, even though it was certainly a big stick to swing.

                      As the lyricist Scarface once opined: "...real gangsta-ass niggas don't flex nuts cause real gangsta-ass niggas know they got em".

                      [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

                      In one of the debated she was asked how she would be different as president from her predecessor, and she literally just said because she is a woman. She had no other answer to the question. My fucking jaw dropped.

                      [–]feeltheberncream [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                      That moment has stood out in my memory as well ever since that debate. She seriously seems to be running on "I'm a woman, and it's my turn". Sickening.

                      [–]sixcharlie [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      For all of her "Bernie is a one issue candidate" she isn't running on a single issue, besides it being her turn. That's not good enough for me.

                      [–]EarthAllAlong [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                      And she did it with that tone she uses when she expects her reply to get a good round of applause.

                      To her, inspirational speaking is that game where you shove the square peg through the square hole

                      [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      Oh that is so annoying. You can see it a mile away when she is getting to the part of her prepared remarks where the speechwriters intended an applause line. It is so obviously staged and phony it drives me crazy.

                      [–]notduddeman [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                      and she's supposedly 'won' every debate so far.

                      [–]DworkinsCunt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                      That goddamn Univision/Washington Post farce of a debate...

                      コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

                        [–]seeingeyegod [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Trump is gonna be like "IVE GOT A MANGINA!!!" AAAHM OLD DON!

                        [–]Akamaru [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        The fact that she falls back so heavily on this makes her look like she has little more to offer.

                        She doesn't have much to offer, that's why people who support Bernie aren't eager to jump on the Hillary bandwagon. Bernie and Trump have communicated what they plan to do that sets them apart from the pack (good or bad). Hillary, Cruz, etc aren't interested in the concerns of the voters, they're interested in towing their party's ineffectual leadership lines. The fact that the Republican establishment thinks that they have the moral high ground over Trump despite their 7+ years of obstructing America's recovery is laughable.

                        [–]sryii [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                        So I've been looking for what sexist comments Trump has said. I'm having a hard time finding a comment directly related to a person's gender rather than gender neutral comments. Do you have an example?

                        [–]junkspot91 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                        I think Obama did it right when he ran, I don't think I ever heard him mention race, even though it was certainly a big stick to swing.

                        Literally one of his most monumental speeches -- his "A More Perfect Union" speech -- was given in the 2008 election. It was a near forty minute speech centered on the topic of race in America. It was moving, topical, and a major news story. Not quite sure how you missed it, but something tells me it has to do with the whitewashing of the 2008 election cycle, where the vitriol between camps on the Democratic side was orders of magnitude higher than it is this time around.

                        [–]cogman10 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Good point. I forgot about that whole kerfluffle.

                        I guess the difference here, as I see it, is that race was being brought up quite a bit with the whole Jeremiah Wright controversy. Even with that speech, I don't think that Obama brought up race all that much. That was a speech to address the elephant in the room of "Wright said racist things while you attended his congregation".

                        In the more perfect union speech, the focus was less on "I'm black, stop picking on me" and was more on "racism is something we need to address".

                        Maybe I'm misremembering things. I mean, I do remember that "he would be the first black president" was brought up quite a bit during the campaign. What I don't remember is a whole lot of him making a point of "I'm black".

                        Contrast that to Hillary who just appears to love throwing out "I'm a woman" for everything.

                        [–]AnotherPint [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

                        Excellent post. I would like to print this out and slide it under the windshield wipers of all the brittle middle-class, middle-aged women I know who are full-tilt for Hillary without any real policy rationale beyond "experience" and accuse anyone who's not of misogyny, stupidity, or both.

                        [–]greg19735 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                        On the other hand, i'm not sure if HRC has set back feminism decades...

                        [–]AnotherPint [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                        I think it's fair to say Hillary presents a vintage brand of feminism rooted in '60s and '70s thinking that many of today's smart women find obsolete at best, offensive at worst.

                        Exhibit A is that terrible moment when Hillary's political sister Madeline Albright threatened women with "a special place in hell" if they didn't put chromosomal ID ahead of policy positions.

                        [–]gassygooselover [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                        I'd say the majority of women I know personally (mostly in their 20s and 30s) exhibit that grrrl power in-group mentality at least occasionally. Not sure if my experience is an outlier or not.

                        [–]oozles [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                        I don't think you're wrong, but women in their 20s and 30s are showing up for Sanders, not Hillary.

                        Hillary represents overcoming obstacles that the older generation had to fight against. Her pantsuits are probably inspiring to someone who wasn't allowed to wear pants to work.

                        Millennial feminists aren't worried about the issues that Hillary represents. They want to be safe from sexual assault, promote LGBT rights, and fight gender stereotypes. They are also worried about getting collectively screwed over as a generation by a broken economic and political system, which of course makes Sander's their candidate.

                        [–]Carvemynameinstone [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Yup, and her change to accommodate towards the LGBT community is crushed by Bernie.

                        [–]orlin002 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        middle-aged women I know who are full-tilt for Hillary

                        For a split second, I read that as "full-tit" and it was taking some kind of entirely different meaning.

                        [–]poesse [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                        Like brick walls though, good luck.

                        [–]powercorruption [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                        Good luck. Head over to /r/hillaryclinton and see how out of touch they are.

                        [–]BSebor [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

                        The issue with her is that she is not a feminist, not a Progressive, and not anti-establishment but tries to sell herself as each of those things enough to get the support of thosr who like that.

                        She's pretty much the embodiement of the Democratic Party establishment. Somewhat diverse as far as race and gender goes but very open to taking money and always giving some support to Progressives and such to keep them on their side of the fence while not really being Progressive themselves.

                        [–]rndljfry [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

                        Bernie Sanders has had no problem hosting big ticket fundraisers for the Democratic Party in the past though? And he certainly has no problem taking advantage of their resources and establishment connections to get as far as he has.

                        [–]BSebor [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                        Sanders is a lifelong politician and public servant who escaped poverty by winning an election. He has connections with the establishment, he's been in Congress for decades, but his Progressive beliefs are completely genuine and pre-date the term itself.

                        [–]F4240 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                        but his Progressive beliefs are completely genuine and pre-date the term itself.

                        What? Do you not know ANY history? Have you not heard of "The Progressive Era".

                        Oh what else do you not even know you are wrong about!

                        [–]BSebor [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                        Oh please, do you really think the Progressive Era directly connects to the modern coalition of middle class liberals and college age people who have taken the term Progressive?

                        The Progressive Era has absolutely nothing to do with modern Progressives, who Bernie pre-dates by decades.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                          [–]TheAngryGoat [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                          Somewhat diverse as far as race and gender goes

                          How can one person be diverse? I mean, I understand how a group of people can be diverse, but how can one person be diverse?

                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                            [–]sweetfishremix [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            10/10 agree. Would vote Elizabeth Warren, would not vote Hillary.

                            [–]HeyZuesHChrist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Not only are you right about the outright manipulation of accusing Sanders of being too mean, but the biggest issue is that she leaves a scandal behind her everywhere she goes. It's always something with her. There is always some scandal and it's always clear that she's lying about things. She is just a dishonest person who has benefited from all the things that Sanders is saying should be changed and she just can't have that pointed out.

                            [–]nilloc_31415 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            I'm curious how you see the people posting about sexism and Bernie being a sexist on /r/Hillaryclinton

                            Just today I have seen 3 posts there surrounding it. Most of the arguments seem very convoluted to me. Basically, if I replaced the word convoluted in the previous sentence with the word crazy, it would be sexist. I can't wrap my head around the jumps in logic to assert that.

                            [–]Treypyro [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            As a middle class white male, I couldn't give a shit what gender or color our next president is. I really don't even care that much about their religion. I want our next president to be someone that will be a good president. I just don't see that with Hilary (although I would far rather have her than Cruz or Trump).

                            Bernie is the only person taking this campaign seriously.

                            Hillary would be the first woman president, which would be great!

                            Bernie would be the first Jewish president, which would be great.

                            Cruz would be the first president born outside the US, which I don't necessarily approve of. He only counts as a natural born citizen because his mom was a citizen.

                            Trump would be the first president to have never either held political office or served in the military. Which I definitely don't approve of. I don't think he should be allowed to run without having experience with one or the other.

                            [–]Armenoid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            hope you don't mind but your words are now on my feed. quoted to a beautiful anon woman

                            [–]12rmfoster [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            The was wonderful and insisted yo thank you. I wish I had the money to add to your gold pile already

                            [–]Yuzumi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            It really seems like half her campaign is riding on "I HAVE A VAGINA" while deflecting how rooted into the current system she is.

                            There are plenty of women I've seen that support her because she's a woman and no other reason. They don't care if she's a bad person or would make a terrible president because they want to see boobs in the oval office.

                            If this becomes a Clinton v Trump race then the people who vote for Hilary because she is a woman are no better than the people who vote for trump because he is a man.

                            Having a woman president would be just as big of a milestone as having a black president was, but if she comes in and pulls a Bush it might make it harder for a good female candidate to gain office later.

                            Obama won because he was the better candidate (or at the very least, lesser of the two evils), not because he was black. I would argue that being black probably hurt him more than helped because there are a lot of racist motherfuckers out there.

                            They might feel like they are empowering their gender by voting for Hilary, but they are doing the exact opposite.

                            [–]petercrissjazz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            i'm so happy to be reading this. my ex and her mother have "women for hillary!" bumper stickers and they're both terribly emotionally manipulative, self-victimizing, and passive aggressive. it's an insult to the ideas of strong feminism and, from the point of view of the father of a little girl, i'm not sure i want the first woman president acting the way hillary does to be a role model for my little one.

                            [–]mcmastermind [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            God damn you nailed this one. I have no problem with a woman in power but it shouldn't be someone who pulls the "I am a woman" card. A woman is electable if she will be a good leader and doesn't make shit remarks like she has.

                            [–]newtonslogic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            What it does is taint the narrative of "I deserve equal access to and right for things as a woman" to "Give me stuff because I'm a woman".

                            [–]razor150 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            I think feminism is doing a fine job of setting itself back without Hillary Clinton acting the way she is. Though she isn't helping, because she is using her being a female as a shield to protect herself from being treated like any male candidate would be. A lot of people are turned off by that, because it stinks of hypocrisy and like you said emotional manipulation.

                            She also seems to be running on two things, Obama's third term, and "Wouldn't it be great have a woman president." Sure, but why should you be the first woman president, instead of someone like Elizabeth Warren? Make your case instead of claiming sexism and misogyny against people who don't support you.

                            [–]fescennine1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            As a woman, I hate her use of the gender card.

                            This. 100% accurate on how I feel as well.

                            [–]LamborghiniJones [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            That was a well thought out post, thanks for sharing :)

                            [–]DL757 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            As a woman, I hate her use of the gender card.

                            you're literally using the gender card to decry use of the gender card

                            [–]majorchamp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Well written. Thank you.

                            [–]70ms [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            As another woman, thank you for expressing that so eloquently. You really nailed how I feel as well. I'm 45 so I've been waiting a long time to see a woman get elected, and having to bear Hillary running not once but twice is just awful. She is not what I want to see in our first female leader. I get so frustrated about the emotional manipulation thing.

                            [–]beforethewind [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                            No need to say, "sisters" -- dude, we're all in this together, and whether labelled or not, any positively minded individual is a feminist. She does us ALL an injustice.

                            [–]Manakel93 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            I think any positive-minded person should be an egalitarian, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

                            [–]TripleEEE1682 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            Totally agree... we are all in this together

                            [–]beforethewind [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Of course -- didn't mean to sound MEN MATTER TOO, just legitimate love at the idea of a truly represented community. :)

                            [–]mydeca [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

                            When he talks about a corrupt system, which she has participated in, she makes it personal; "how dare you call me corrupt!"

                            What? He straight up implies that she is corrupt, it is a personal attack on her. He constantly mentions how she's received money from the big banks, implying she's in their pockets i.e. corrupt. Isn't that a personal attack on her?

                            [–]e_allora [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Preach.

                            Woman and feminist here: I loathe her use of the gender card. We have fought way too hard to be able to be seen as complete people for this bullshit. Feminism has afforded me the ability to be seen for my merits as a person (as well as for all my faults). Do we not owe Hillary that same consideration? Or should we just tow the party line and vote for her simply because we share a vagina?

                            I vote on the merits of a person's record, not their gender. Hillary is highly insulting to women.

                            [–]extraneouspanthers [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            She's set feminism back by decades because she's playing politics? Lol this sub is a joke

                            [–]dannytheguitarist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            And you know what? On the Hillary Clinton sub, one of the top posts is about how you can turn any criticism pointing at her into a sexism accusation.

                            Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/hillaryclinton/comments/4ck09q/sexist_attacks_against_hillary_clinton_bingo/

                            [–]MCRemix [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

                            You mentioned he speaks "systematically" and not personally about her, which if I thought the facts agreed with you, I would have no issue with. If he wasn't specifically alluding that she is corrupt, I would have no reason to say that he has gone negative on her.

                            But he has implicitly focused on her...he singles her out in the ad he released "The Problem" (and in his speeches) by referring to Goldman Sachs, speaking fees and "bought and paid for"...

                            [–]TripleEEE1682 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                            f he wasn't specifically alluding that she is corrupt

                            He has expressed that Hillary has participated in a corrupt system, and she has, hasn't she? So have many of her colleagues. It's systemic.

                            [–]MCRemix [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            Sure, it's systemic. But by focusing on her, he's making it a personal attack, because he's effectively calling her corrupt.

                            Look at it this way, if he said this:

                            "Hillary Clinton is corrupt because she took speaking fees from Goldman Sachs"

                            ...would you say that wasn't a negative attack? It might be true from your perspective, but isn't it still negative?

                            Well, effectively, without saying her name, that's what he did. He called out facts specific to her ("speaking fees", "Goldman Sachs") so that we would know who he was referencing and then he goes on to say that politicians who do that are "bought and paid for" (i.e. corrupt).

                            The only difference is whether he specifically named her or not...

                            It's like a schoolyard logic..."If I don't say your name, you can't get mad at me!" We all know what he means and he's calling her corrupt.

                            I respect your right to believe that, but you believing it doesn't remove the element of negativity involved in calling someone corrupt.

                            [–]Zer_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Right? And at the very least, it doesn't take much for Bernie to point out Hillary's flaws. He doesn't need to ad-hominem her and he doesn't. She does it to herself. If I was to choose between a candidate who has been historically complicit (and arguably supportive of) a corrupt system, or a candidate who has historically shown to consistently support a legislation based on real ideals. Yeah the choice is easy.

                            I don't care what policies are written on Hillary's website, because frankly, I wouldn't believe her if she told me she'd get wet when falling into a pool.

                            TL:DR: Actions speak louder than words.

                            [–]thomasscat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            girl, to pick your brain!

                            [–]Fire_away_Fire_away [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                            This is going to sound terrible but the only women of my generation (under 30) that I know that are truly excited about Clinton are the ultra career-oriented power-at-all-costs types. In other words, people exactly like her. They do not want a woman in office because it benefits women, they want it because it benefits women in high-powered positions. Whether it would actually help more women isn't the point; the point is that their attitude betrays an inherent selfishness that is hypocritical in light of the position they are trying to portray. It's always the same: there's not enough women CEO's. There's not enough women in elected office. These are ALWAYS the two that come up. "I want to be in charge one day and I'm afraid it might not happen."

                            It's never about the struggles of lower-income women. It's never about how women of color are basically second class citizens. It's always an upper or middle-upper class white girl who needs there to be another seat at the power table because she's afraid for her career. And that's a valid concern but don't turn around and pretend to give a shit about all women when you're really out for yourself.

                            I'm not going to sit here as a white male and pretend to fully understand the complexities of the position. But that's what I observe and that's the disingenuousness I detect. As someone who watched my dad struggle to support us as a blue collar worker I'm pretty sensitive to identity politics taking precedence over the plight of the poor. I've been told I was privileged while working through college by people who have gotten everything anyone could ever want in life. I don't know what it's like to deal with being a black woman in American but guess what? Neither do you.

                            The way I see it, you can support both women and the lower classes but I've gotten the message, consistently, that we're not important to Hillary's camp. So why would I give her my vote? White guilt? Male guilt? Nah. Give me Jill Stein, give me Liz Warren. Hell, I'd vote for Sandra Bland before I vote for her.

                            [–]Minimalphilia [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                            Do you like sandwiches?

                            "As a woman with a longstanding political carreer under my belt and lots of experience making the tough decisions I can surely say that sandwiches are a topic I need to address, which I will do."

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