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Portlanders, Lets welcome all those folks escaping persecution, and archaic ways of thinking. North Carolinians, you are welcome to come and enjoy a better way of life. (self.Portland)

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[–]phenixcityftw -4ポイント-3ポイント  (31子コメント)

it's not a valid exercise of personal freedom to want to shit and piss in a room full of people with matching equipment?

[–]santiamiam 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

You've used the same bathroom as a trans person. You lived.

[–]LightlyTossedS Waterfront 0ポイント1ポイント  (16子コメント)

Are you going to be staring at each other why you shit and piss? It's a free country, but that requires consent from both party's. How are you going to know they have different 'equipment'?

[–]phenixcityftw -2ポイント-1ポイント  (15子コメント)

How are you going to know they have different 'equipment'?

when the dude with a beard walks into the women's room?

but you're right, i don't know. that's why i rely on social constructs like sex-segregated bathrooms to provide me some reasonable degree of certainty and comfort that i'm shitting and pissing in a room full of like-sex people.

[–]LightlyTossedS Waterfront 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

social constructs like sex-segregated bathrooms

I'd rather us get over the Puritan stigmas and just have unisex bathrooms. It's not like all bathrooms have stalls for privacy. Probably not really doable, because of a few creepy types.

when the dude with a beard walks into the women's room?

More of a reason for them to walk into the men's room. They are clearly a man, even if they have a vagina.

Also, where to the hermaphrodites of the world shit and piss if all bathrooms are defined by one's sexual organs?

[–]phenixcityftw -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

More of a reason for them to walk into the men's room. They are clearly a man, even if they have a vagina.

right, and, apparently since i've used bathrooms in the past with females presenting as males and i didn't even notice it, that's the way it should be.

secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair and boobs are used as a proxy for actual biological sex which is hard to detect since people wear clothes. no one really cares about the accuracy of that premise, rather they care that in most cases, they're using the bathroom with similarly-sexed people.

explicitly making the bathrooms gender segregated removes the imperative to utilize the bathroom corresponding to your outward manifestation of sex.

[–]higher_momentsHawthorne 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the idea is that secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair and breasts don't necessarily correspond to one's biological sex at birth. The law you're defending would require someone who was born with a penis but who now looks like a woman to use the men's room, which also seems to be exactly the sort of uncomfortable situation you're trying to avoid.

As for the personal preference argument, suppose I prefer not to share a bathroom with colored people--should we support laws that respect that preference? Of course, it wasn't so long ago that such laws existed, but we've evolved as a society since then.

The thing is, laws that respect exclusionary preferences are generally mutually exclusive. For example, suppose Alice was born with a penis but now looks like (and identifies as) a woman. If Bob prefers not to share a bathroom with Alice because she looks like a woman and Carol prefers not to share a bathroom with Alice because she was born with a penis, whose preferences should we codify into law? Or should we perhaps treat all preferences equally by choosing not to pass exclusionary laws?

[–]phenixcityftw -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the idea is that secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair and breasts don't necessarily correspond to one's biological sex at birth.

except that they generally do, unless you're undergoing sex-reassignment therapy. at which point, i'd presume, your birth certificate would be amended to reflect your "new" sex.

the gender-based ordinances don't merely make it a matter of picking a bathroom based on your exhibited sex (which is, i think we can all agree, discretionary in many ways). it's making it a bathroom selection based on gender, which is entirely an internalized social construct of one's masculinity or femininity.

Or should we perhaps treat all preferences equally by refusing to pass exclusionary laws?

so you think people want gender and sex free bathrooms? this is literally splitting the proverbial baby and causing a result no one is happy with.

the law is not "exclusionary" in that loaded term sense - it's a law that has to make a distinction, much like "you qualify for exemption X if your taxable income is less than or equal to Y".

edit: but, yes, as between Bob or Carol, someone's ox is going to get gored in choosing where Alice should be going to the toilet. It's a preference call that everyone in society ought to be allowed to decide on. There's nothing inherently bad/racist/evil/prejudicial/whatever other slurs you can throw at it by picking one over the other.

[–]LightlyTossedS Waterfront 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

secondary sex characteristics such as facial hair and boobs are used as a proxy for actual biological sex

I guess we have a disagreement of what Sex and Gender are. I see them as two separate but related definitions. You define them as the same thing.

females presenting as males and i didn't even notice it, that's the way it should be.

If you can't tell, why does it matter to you? Why do you need to know what's in their pants? Why does it make you feel uncomfortable just to pee in the same room?

[–]phenixcityftw [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

are you asking if i had a room full of cis-gendered people whose biological sex matched up explicitly and perfectly with their expressed sex and internal concept of gender, why i would feel uncomfortable to use the same toilet room as women?

ignoring the actual answer, why is my preference for that system any more or less valid than someone else's preference for another system.

[–]higher_momentsHawthorne [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

why is my preference for that system any more or less valid than someone else's preference for another system

Exactly. So maybe instead of passing a law that decides whose preferences are more valid, we should just not make it illegal to shit in a certain toilet. Note that this isn't necessarily the same as asking for gender-neutral bathrooms--we could leave the bathrooms gender-labeled and just choose not to legally penalize someone for using the "wrong" one.

As another example, suppose a father needs to take his daughter into a restroom--which one should he be legally required to use?

[–]LightlyTossedS Waterfront [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We are talking about a regulations and laws. They are not 'preferences' and have to include the whole of the populace, since everyone poops.

If it's your preference to poop without people with vaginas around then you should keep that preference and only poop in single occupancy bathrooms.

[–]FatZombieMamaDowntown 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

What do you get out of that, though? I mean, what's going to go wrong if someone of a different gender is in the room?

[–]phenixcityftw -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

this is all about preferences, right? i prefer to shit and piss in a room without biological females.

just like some other people prefer to use the bathroom that corresponds to whatever gender they decide themselves to be. they don't "get" anything more out of doing that than I do in my preference.

[–]FatZombieMamaDowntown 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I guess your preferences are now the law, fuck the other people, right?

What a textbook display of privilege. You want things one way and have the power to make other ways illegal, and you see no problem with that at all because your way is "right". Thanks for deciding that for everyone else.

[–]phenixcityftw -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I guess your preferences are now the law, fuck the other people, right?

What a textbook display of privilege. You want things one way and have the power to make other ways illegal, and you see no problem with that at all because your way is "right". Thanks for deciding that for everyone else.

et tu, brute?

[–]FatZombieMamaDowntown 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mods are not supposed to engage in drawn-out arguments with users, so I am stopping now. I will just say that I disagree with you vehemently and utterly.

[–]phenixcityftw -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

well, at least that was a better cop-out than letting me know what year it is.

[–]Tvmbl3r [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

when the dude with a beard walks into the women's room?

"When the dude with a beard walks into the women's room" there had better be a long ass line to the men's room, as there always is one at the women's room.