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Wondering Wednesday, 30 March 2016, Most accurate or inaccurate historical game? (self.badhistory)

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In this week's topic we cover gaming, both the good and the bad. This can be any type of game, be it board, computer, pen and paper, cards, etc. What games have you played that are surprisingly accurate? Which ones have set your teeth on edge because of the offences against history they've committed? Did you ever learn something from a game, or did you think you did, only to find out later it was bad history? Did a game every surprise you by correctly portraying something that you would never have guessed they would get right? Or did they get something wrong unnecessarily that really shouldn't have happened if they had done even the most basic of research? You can also wax lyrically about your favourite historical games, or offload all the pent up hatred for a despised one (just remember to explain why). The questions listed here are to give you some ideas, don't feel constrained by them and feel free to write about anything else related to the topic.

Note: unlike the Monday and Friday megathreads, this thread is not free-for-all. You are free to discuss history related topics. But please save the personal updates for Mindless Monday and Free for All Friday! Please remember to np link all links to Reddit if you link to something from a different sub, lest we feed your comment to the AutoModerator. And of course no violating R4!

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]georgeguy007"Wigs lead to world domination" - Jared Diamon 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm kinda peeved that Civ 5 has Lee and not Grant to be honest. I understand it, but I am still rather peeved.

Lee and Grant were both good with what they had, Lee with his smaller force, and Grant managing one of the largest forces at that time. Each were presented unique challenges and approached them in unique ways. The only difference between the two is that Grant was the winner.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm kind of peeved that I always end up with the Nazi Great Generals.

[–]StoryWonkerChristians were the original Bravetheists 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Part of my plan for exam revision is to do a full, comprehensive post on Ryse: Son of Rome, because it's EPICALLY bad. A lot of "That's not how Rome worked!", bits of "This is a severe misinterpretation of the ancient world" and a massive heaping of "HAVE YOU EVEN READ TACITUS? IF THERE HAD BEEN A BARBARIAN SACK OF ROME IN NERO'S REIGN HE WOULD HAVE MENTIONED IT!"

[–]TFielding38The Goa'uld built the Stargates 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Clearly, the most historically accurate series is the Wolfenstein series

But seriously, the one that annoys me most is Verdun. I've seen a lot of people insist how realistic it is (though when you complain it isn't, everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell you it isn't supposed to be) and I've seen the dev team say similar things. Now, ignoring the whole arcadey gameplay, it's based on 4 man squads that level up to get better guns, you have a large amount of pistols and mgs and barely any grenades. I mean, it's a sort of fun game (but if I still played MP games, I'd go with WWI Source), but it's not realistic.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It nailed the brownness of the trenches pretty well though.

[–]Aifendragon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wolfenstein is clearly accurate. And, most importantly, a lot of fun (I just finished TNO, great times!)

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

Personally, I think the Civilization series is one of the worst history games. Beyond the obvious (to my knowledge, the Aztecs never invaded Hunnic Alexandria with giant death robots), it presents an image of what history is that I think does a ton of harm. It presents history as a linear storyline that you "advance" on in a certain way with all civilizations having the same endpoint and the same needs along the way. This, in turn, means that those who play it get an idea of history and technology as one way roads that must be progressed on, which isn't entirely accurate. It's a shame, because I know Civ introduced me to some cultures I would otherwise know nothing about, and it can be a good way to start getting interested in history. The problem is when you treat it as the end and an accurate vision in and of itself, which I think too many people do.

In terms of good history, though, I really like Twilight Struggle and Navajo Wars (both board games). Once again, while they're playing with alternate histories, and while Navajo Wars is by far the more accurate of the two, I like how both present their respective conflicts as actual conflicts rather than something with an inevitable ending. For Navajo Wars especially, I love that the basic struggles of Navajo life are included alongside fighting the Spanish and Americans. It presents a more complete vision of history that I think is lacking in most war games.

[–]georgeguy007"Wigs lead to world domination" - Jared Diamon 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Europa is better, but still (shocker) very centralized around Europe.

I say its better because the techs are insanely needed like Civ5, they just give you more options. Its a nice balance, but I wished it understood technology better. Technology comes from needs of an empire, not a list of things you need. It is a bit better because it has no strict tech tree, just a bunch of small tech lines. You choose a line and you slowly progress down it.

I am excited for Stellaris, however. It takes place in 2200 and is super scify, so it has a lot of free way, but it appears to handle science well. When you finish researching a topic (the three topics being physics, social, and military), you are given three choices. These choices are like cards pulled out of a randomized deck, but some cards are more likely to appear than others.

The cards get their bias by what your empire is doing (peace/war), by what your scientists are doing (researching a black hole or watching a pre-FTL society), by random events and your choices, and by your previous discoveries. I think this is a great way to show that discovers come from the need for them.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oooo, that does sound awesome. It sounds a bit like what Alpha Centauri did, but better. When is that coming out?

[–]georgeguy007"Wigs lead to world domination" - Jared Diamon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

early may! wooooo

[–]Imperial_Truth 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

While I do enjoy just goofing around on Civ, I as well agree that it does present history just a linear progression of step to step along a tree. I am sorry but no just because we developed writing or mathematics we did not move into the 'Classical Era'. There were other socio-political developments in hand with the early technological and 'scientific' developments.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

And to be fair, the socio-political aspect does get marginally more complex as you move through the eras (less so in Civ V than in, say, 2, though). But it also just misses huge swaths of what makes a civilization a civilization.

[–]Imperial_Truth 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, but then if it went too complex we would have something more like EU4 and not civ. Which is admittedly for a larger, more casual audience.

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the other hand, Brave New World has a non-linear tech tree, but still appeals to a broad audience, implying that this is a possible thing.

[–]Imperial_Truth 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

True enough, true enough. But the idea that one technology leads directly to another with no other steps between them or circumstances is misleading.

[–]Tolnipagan pirate from the coasts of Bulgaria 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Does the EU series fall under the same trap, as well?

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

...this is where I confess I've never played Europa Universalis.

[–]Tolnipagan pirate from the coasts of Bulgaria 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, in short, at least in EU3 it was particularly bad: you had 5 tech "trees" going from level 1-50, which give marginal benefits mostly, save for some "landmark" techs. worse off, there's tech groups, and, well, the Western one is the one that researches at best speed, and all others must "westernise".

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hm. It sounds like it would fall into that same trap, then, but as I said, not having played it, I'm loathe to say anything one way or the other.

[–]CaptainPyjamaSharkAdmiral Kolchak the Night Stalker 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Forgotten Hope 2, the mod for Battlefield 2, is probably the most historically accurate WW2 shooter. I can't think of any others that have the Kiwis, Aussies, or Italians as playable factions.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Battlefield 1942 had an expansion pack with the Italians as playable versus the Free French at Monte Cassino.

[–]CaptainPyjamaSharkAdmiral Kolchak the Night Stalker 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's true! I never owned that one, actually. I wish more games would delve into lesser-known campaigns (Call of Duty: Big Red One, is notable for having the Vichy French and the Italians, though the French did not have correct weapons.)

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was fantastic. They added a pile of vehicles, including the Mosquito, the M3 Grant, and they gave the engineers bayonets as a stop-gap since they didn't have much going for them on the close-range self defense front.

They bayonet charge, it turns out, is not an effective game tactic.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

A while ago, someone asked about Assassin's Creed 3 over at /r/AskHistorians. Here's my reply:

did the game do an adequate job at depicting a Mohawk village?

From what I recall of playing Assassin's Creed III, Kanatahséton isn't a great example of a typical Mohawk village at the time. For plot reasons, the village is culturally conservative and isolated not only from colonial life but also from other Mohawk communities. Until the Templars show up and wreck the place, there's little evidence that European colonists are anywhere around, despite being in the Mohawk Valley. Historically speaking, prior to the French-and-Indian War, most of the Mohawk had resettled to the north, either in what's now Canada or close to it. Kanatahséton has its reason for staying in the Mohawk Valley, but that would also mean its rather exposed to incoming Dutch and German settlers who had been occupying the valley under British protection. In a normal Mohawk village, you'd expect to see signs of trade with the colonists - trade cloth, firearms, metal pots and pans, were all popular items by this time. None of which appears in Kanatahséton from what I remember.

The demographics of Kanatahséton are also a bit odd. A typical Mohawk village would normally have between 1000 - 2000 people living in it (once the population reached 2000, plans would be made to split the village in two in new locations. Kanatahséton is tiny in comparison, with maybe two dozen people at best. That small population is also peculiar because it has three longhouses, each of which could be home to up to fifty people. A lot of beds are empty in Kanatahséton. EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that the village also appears to be lacking an appropriate amount of farmland around it. If I remember correctly, outside the walls of the village was just a forest clearing and a lake. There should have been many acres of corn, beans, and squash being planted.

Because Kanatahséton seems to stand apart from the rest of the Mohawk nation and the Haudenosaunee at large, we miss out of a lot of Revolutionary politics and relevant historical figures - the absence of which are some of my main disappoints with the game. I would have loved to see the inclusion of Joseph Brant (famed Mohawk Loyalist and brother-in-law of William Johnson, one of the Templars in the game), who would have been an interesting foil to Connor. In the game, Charles Lee tricks Kanen'tó:kon (Connor's childhood friend) and the other men of Kanatahséton into joining up with the British. In history, the Mohawk in general came to side with the British (with Joseph Brant being an early and vocal proponent of such an alliance). Connor would be the outlier among his people. The Oneida and the Tuscarora favored the side of the colonists and the rift ultimately caused a Haudenosaunee civil war during the Revolution. Considering Connor's feelings toward his chosen side by the war's end, it would have been cool to get a follow-up DLC set during Northwest Indian War (1790s) where Connor teams up with Little Turtle and Blue Jacket (and Brant, indirectly) to defend the Western Confederacy (the super-Confederacy of Native nations in the Ohio country founded right after the Revolution). He would have got to meet 27-year-old Tecumseh too.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Kanatahséton is tiny in comparison, with maybe two dozen people at best.

Could be thanks to

the village also appears to be lacking an appropriate amount of farmland around it.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The small amount of garden plots that the village has isn't really appropriate even for it's small population. Maybe it's just a matter of the scaling within the game, making a large area seem smaller. Depending on the soil in the area, they'd need somewhere between 0.5 - 1.0 acres to produce enough maize. Not all that much space (Iroquoian agriculture at the time was great at packing in productivity into fairly small spaces - this productively would drop to as little as 1/5 its originally productivity within a couple decades after Euroamericans started farming the area), but it's still more than what they're working in the game from what I remember.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe that's where the other villages kept sending their shit gardeners?

[–]Taurik 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Obviously, it's not historically accurate since conflicts were randomly generated but I always felt that "Sid Meier's Pirates!" did an excellent job with the "feel" of the time period when it came to changing alliances and wars and how to use them to your advantage. For how primitive the graphics and game functions were, it's really one of the most immersive games I've ever played.

And along those same lines, I'd add "PTO: Pacific Theater of Operations" and "Silent Service" to the list of games that had their issues but generally stayed true to their time periods.

Plus, those three games really helped me with my geography.

[–]georgeguy007"Wigs lead to world domination" - Jared Diamon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I posted this in a comment below, but I think I should repost it.

I am excited for Stellaris. It takes place in 2200 and is super scify, so it has a lot of free way, but it appears to handle technology well. When you finish researching a previous science topic, (the three topics being physics, social, and military), you are given three choices. These choices are like cards pulled out of a randomized deck, but some cards are more likely to appear than others. You select the card and you start researching that.

The cards get their bias by what your empire is doing (peace/war), by what your scientists are doing (researching a black hole or watching a pre-FTL society), by your government type and you empire ethos, by random events and your choices, and by your previous discoveries. I think this is a great way to show that discovers come from the need for them.

Technology Trees are bad. It shows society depending on a pre-set path. It may be good for competitiveness, but it may end there. I would much prefer a tech web or a tech deck.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Medal Of Honor 2: Underground really came out of nowhere with its ahistoricity. The first one was a bog standard "one man army" sort of thing, but didn't play terribly loose with the war. 2 had mp-40 wielding dogs, robots, and knights in Nazi armor swinging axes. It was all very bizarre, and then Medal of Honor went right back to normal as if it never happened.