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[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 322ポイント323ポイント  (45子コメント)

Works Cited

1 Daniel Webster by Gerry Hazelton

2 America's Constitution: A Biography by Akhil Reed Amar

3 Themes of the American Civil War: The War Between the States edited by Susan-Mary Grant and Brian Holden Reid - A really fantastic resource, bringing together a number of essays that look at various issues surrounding the American Civil War, three of which I draw upon here:

  • a The State of the Union, 1776–1860 by Donald Ratcliffe

  • b Southern Secession in 1860–1861 by Bruce Collins

  • c Davis and the Confederacy by Martin Crawford

4 The Nullification Crisis and Republican Subversion by Richard B. Latner

5 Another Nullification Crisis: Vermont's 1850 Habeas Corpus Law by Horace K. Houston Jr.

6 Civil War and Reconstruction: An Eyewitness History by Joe H. Kirchberger

7 Battle Cry of Freedom by James McPherson McPherson's book is generally agreed upon these days as being the best intro-level, single tome introduction to the American Civil War. It shouldn't be missed.

8 Why The War Was Not About Slavery by Donald W. Livingston Livingston is a Neo-Confederate Apologist who writes defences of the Confederacy's right to seceede, and seeks to diminish the role of slavery, wishing, as he himself admits, to erase the past fifty years of scholarship on the war. The Abbeville Institute that he founded (and has since left) is decried by the SPLC labels them a hate group for its undercurrents of white supremacy and secession.

9 William Mahone, the Lost Cause, and Civil War History by Kevin H. Levin

10 Anatomy of a Myth by Alan T. Nolan One of a number of essays from a larger collection that break down the Lost Cause myth, Nolan's piece is an excellent introduction/summary of the erroneous claims made.

11 The Civil War: A Narrative by Shelby Foote Foote is, simply put, a master of words, and his prose is unrivaled in quality when it comes to Civil War writing. His historical acumen... not so much. The trilogy suffers from being fifty years out of date, a fact compounded by being in a field where the revolution in understanding happened within that period. Nevertheless, it provides wonderful descriptions of many aspects of the war, and while not the best source on certain controversial aspects of the war, shouldn't be missed out on.

12 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

13 In the Shadow of Slavery: African Americans in New York City, 1626-1863 by Leslie M. Harris

14 A World on Fire: Britain's Crucial Role in the American Civil War by Amanda Foreman Active intervention may be overhyped, but the overall role that the United Kingdom played is still a significant one, and shouldn't be downplayed. While openly arming the Confederacy was illegal, British citizens provided vital lifelines to the rebel cause by circumventing those restrictions.

15 British Historical Statistics by B. R. Mitchell Seriously indebted to /u/agentdcf for making the raw numbers on this available to me.

16 "Virginia 4th-grade textbook criticized over claims on black Confederate soldiers" This specific controversy is only cited to be illustrative, having been a particularly high profile one, but the claims of tens of thousands of Confederate soldiers is a not uncommon one from the uninformed, and at best can be called a conflation with enslaved servants and laborers, of which there were indeed a great many.

17 Black Confederates by Corydon Ireland

18 Black Confederates, Encyclopedia Virginia

19 The Louisiana Native Guards: The Black Military Experience during the Civil War by James G. Hollandsworth, Jr.

20 Freedom by the Sword U.S. Colored Troops 1862-1867 by William Dobak

Notes and Afterthoughts: Needless to say, this is an incredibly deep topic, the Civil War generally being one of the most written about events in history, period. I've done my best to cover this specific aspect adequately, but I'm sure that the internal clarity of my thought process doesn't always translate to a crystal clear conveyance of it to you, the reader. I quite literally hit the limit 40,000 characters exactly (22 pages double-spaced, and just over 7,000 words if you care), and in all honesty, could have written twice as much without adding any new topic. Just about every paragraph here could easily take up an entire book of its own - and in many cases do - and I'm happy to expand on any aspect which remains less than clear, or which you simply want to hear more about.

PS: It is July somewhere.

[–]Spaceman_Jalego 76ポイント77ポイント  (13子コメント)

I take it someone's happy the moratorium's over?

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 134ポイント135ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]DrMikeTyson 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, I'd be pretty excited too if I had a nice bottle of Chianti right now...

[–]Quouar 54ポイント55ポイント  (10子コメント)

Personally, I think it was the most amazingly timed moratorium ever.

[–]Spaceman_Jalego 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

Not like this month's, huh?

[–]Quouar 46ポイント47ポイント  (2子コメント)

You never know. Those darned Irish slaves could take over Conservapedia and fill it with bad food history, forcing me to write about it.

[–]ciderczar 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hush, you.

[–]TheAlmightySnark 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well... You can write but you can't post! It says so right up there in the rules! And they are holier then thou!

[–][deleted] 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not like this month's, huh?

You say that but every time I see somebody talking about African slavery on Reddit or Facebook, some toothless redneck has to chime in "WELL THE IRISH WERE SLAVES TOO".

[–]Spaceman_Jalego 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was more poking fun at /u/Quouar since she's in the moratorium as well.

[–]KadenTau 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why do they think that's relevant? Yeah the Irish were discriminated against pretty heavily, but that doesn't....justify it? I'm still not sure why it's brought up...

[–][deleted] 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

[–]sometakealifetime 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Appendix is a thing of beauty.

Can you conflate Chattel Slavery with Indentured Servitude/Forced Labour? (British Colonies edition, 1600s-1700s)

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't it great?

[–]Sid_Burn 339ポイント340ポイント  (23子コメント)

I can't necessarily refute this long list of sources. But allow me to offer up an alternative source. This is a 34 second long video of a mini confederate flag being waved with shit audio quality. The description, written by Confederatebrave34 clearly states that:

The Confederate Battle Flag represents all Southern, and even Northern, Confederates regardless of race or religion and is the symbol of less government, less taxes, and the right of the people to govern themselves. It is flown in memory and honor of our Confederate ancestors and veterans who willingly shed their blood for Southern independence.

Ergo, the war was not about slavery.

Want more sources?

Fine, here is a 14 minute video from a guy who puts far too many annotations on his video and is trying waaaay too hard to look like a young Gary Oldman.

I mean come on, how can you not trust a guy who is named "Christopher Greene" (with an extra e because he is cool like that) and refers to Anderson Cooper as "Anderson Pooper."

Anyways, this debate has been settled, its pretty clear that the Confederacy fought to protect stats rights.

[–]TitusBluth 353ポイント354ポイント  (1子コメント)

That other guy's post was much too long and his list of sources struck me as elitist and ivory-tower academic. On the other hand your easily accessible videos and folksy misspelling of the word "states" is compelling and convincing.

Consider me a convert. When do we start burning crosses?

[–]rule2DoubleTap 46ポイント47ポイント  (0子コメント)

1866

[–][deleted] 100ポイント101ポイント  (0子コメント)

Youtube Videos?

Thank god, it was about time we started debating like Scholars.

[–]ciderczar 48ポイント49ポイント  (0子コメント)

You had me convinced halfway through the first video. You had my heart at Anderson Pooper.

[–]_watching 79ポイント80ポイント  (4子コメント)

the Confederacy fought to protect stats rights

Statisticians aren't human beings and thus aren't deserving of rights. Sherman did nothing wrong.

[–]Chip085 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey- they are .6 of a human being

[–][deleted] 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Would you be willing to trade every day, from this day to that, for one chance - just one chance - to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives...but they'll never take OUR PERPETUAL STATA LICENSE!!!!

[–]melangechurro 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

"He wants to speak. What do you have to say?" "Second AMMENDMENT!!!"

The ending to braveheart is a little fuzzy to me.

[–]jon_hendry 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

The march to the t test was fully justified.

[–]SwishBender 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now those are what I call trite and widely accepted sources.

[–]commanderspoonface 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

And of course no defense of racism could be complete without comparing trans people's identities to white people pretending to be black...

[–][deleted] 36ポイント37ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something you left out about the Louisiana Native Guard is that not only were they never used, but their existence so frightened the Louisiana state legislature that a law was passed after their formation, limiting membership in the militia to white males.

Which makes the posed post-war pictures of black soldiers in the Native Guard that are so often shared on facebook that much more richly ironic.

[–]TheNobleWumpyBear 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Could you link me to an academic source that addresses this same issue as broadly as you do (without being too much longer... I'd rather the broad-yet-relatively-shallow bulletpoints type paper you did than a 300-page doctorate work).

Just something by a relevent PhD that shows that the Civil War WAS, in fact, about slavery, preferably in fewer than ten thousand words...

Because I know that your write-up is totally valid, but someone I tried to link it to dismissed it outright as invalid for being a .com Reddit post. Even when I insisted that you used around twenty academically sound sources to support every claim you made... She refused to even read unless it was literally .edu or a literal scholarly journal.

So can you think of any source that basically did exactly what you just did that she'd actually read?

Because I thought you did a fantastic job, and I hate to see a brilliant rebuttal to this terrible misinformation ignored simply because it was posted on Reddit rather than a university publisher.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Of the above I listed, "Anatomy of the Myth" is short, too the point, and addresses many Lost Cause talking points. It is only available in that anthology though, not published online... but if you google you can find it. ;-)

Additionally, The State of the Union, 1776–1860 by Donald Ratcliffe and Southern Secession in 1860–1861 by Bruce Collins both treat this topic in-depth, the first looking at why "States Rights" only developed as an issue in tandem with the issue of slavery, and the second at the direct lead up to secession. Not sure either is available online though.

[–]TheNobleWumpyBear 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you! Hopefully that'll help... Though there's always the chance she's just being close-minded and will find a way to write those off too. It can be hard to admit being wrong where heritage and pride are concerned.

Though I know it is possible to change one's mind on this very heated subject because I myself used to be a states' rightser until I dug deeper into it and found things like this.

[–]Elm11 296ポイント297ポイント  (14子コメント)

tl;dr it was about state rights?

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 316ポイント317ポイント  (1子コメント)

ಠ_ಠ

[–]allhailzorp 99ポイント100ポイント  (0子コメント)

No educated Yankee will ever convince me that the War of Northern Agression wasn't about the dirty union trying to take away my great grand puppy's property! Mostly his guns, like the NRA said so!

[–]Sid_Burn 121ポイント122ポイント  (1子コメント)

Shame rings bell shame

[–]Elm11 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Cabal put me up to it, I swear!! D:

[–]yoshiK 108ポイント109ポイント  (7子コメント)

No, it was about ownership of the means of production.

[–]alynnidalar 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

...I see what you did there.

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 27ポイント28ポイント  (5子コメント)

Please be careful. If (almost invariably right-wing) confederate apologists find a way to link the union with communism, it's going to get really ugly. I for one do not want to hear that the Emancipation Proclamation was a plot to contaminate the capitalist south's precious bodily fluids.

[–]SolarAquarion 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

But the southerners controlled their means of productions

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The southern bourgeois, yes. The laborers, however . . .

[–]melangechurro 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't you know they put fluoride in our water?

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mandrake, have you ever seen a yankee drink a glass of water?

[–]Chocolate_Cookie 28ポイント29ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, the tariff was too damn high, silly.

[–]Snugglerific 168ポイント169ポイント  (3子コメント)

black Confederates

This has to be the mother of all "black friend" arguments.

[–]Spartacus_the_troll 80ポイント81ポイント  (2子コメント)

Jefferson Davis had a slaveblack friend.

[–][deleted] 62ポイント63ポイント  (1子コメント)

Look, they hung out together all the time.

One of them might not have had a choice, but hey, they were close.

[–]CuilRunnings 34ポイント35ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's "hanged" in that context.

[–]BreaksFull 45ポイント46ポイント  (2子コメント)

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

I already have about 1/5 of it written up from earlier stuff, so the basics were there. Once I knew the moratorium was almost expired I set to work expanding it to be more comprehensive.

[–]Turnshroud 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

he mentioned in modmail that he already had it written. He was waiting for the signal

[–]lolplatypus 82ポイント83ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pack it in, guys. I know we were all excited about "Lost Cause" coming off moratorium, but /u/Gregory_K_Zhukov just beat the game.

[–]Dubstripsquads 242ポイント243ポイント  (7子コメント)

As a South Carolinian and Proud Southerner I refute this entire wall of text in the name of heritage

[–]Sid_Burn 97ポイント98ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hurahhh, Hurahhh, for Shitposting rights, Huarahhh.

[–][deleted] 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hurrah for the bonny blue flag that gives not a single fuck

[–]CaptainPyjamaShark 57ポイント58ポイント  (1子コメント)

First to secede last to succeed

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah, there's always Mississippi.

[–]SwishBender 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

You might want to add on principles too. If only us Northerners had enough to just follow the constitution how many white lives could have been saved?

[–]buy_a_pork_bun 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Refute it with what? Whaaaat? D:

[–]chocolatepot 102ポイント103ポイント  (9子コメント)

Been sitting on this for a while, haven't you? :D

Lincoln, while entering the war to preserve the perpetual union of the states, never had slavery far from his mind.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that Lincoln saying, "it's just about the Union," doesn't mean Lincoln didn't care about the slavery issue at all. (I do know why, I'm just sayin'.)

[–]smileyman 70ポイント71ポイント  (7子コメント)

People can have multiple motivations, or even change their minds? That's crazy talk.

[–]byrel 49ポイント50ポイント  (2子コメント)

Listen, I demand politicians who have never changed their mind in any issue for any reason even when faced with mountains of evidence otherwise

[–]drharris 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well you've pretty much gotten your way the past few decades.

[–]Townsend_Harris 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

So you want two year olds? Might be some constitutional issues with that.

[–]Dirish 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

People nowadays don't realise that people Before Internet could change their minds whenever they wanted.

Nowadays they're stuck with them, defending them till the death, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But in the olden days of Yore and Yesteryear, one could change their mind without being called a bundle of sticks.

[–]Samskii 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unless you changed your mind about male homosexuality

[–]2x2hands0f00f 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

People can and do change their minds, people do say 'I am sorry, I was wrong'. Just some politicians assclowns don't want to look 'weak'.

[–]DrMikeTyson 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Might want to reword that, particularly observant and repugnant apologists will take your concession that people can have multiple motivations as a de facto acceptance that the war was all about cotton tariffs.

[–]turtleeatingalderman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, not only that...that Lincoln had to place such great emphasis on it being 'just' about restoring the Union is a pretty big hint that slavery wasn't that far from his mind—or most people's minds for that matter.

[–]SinlessSinnerSinning 31ポイント32ポイント  (2子コメント)

I love all the talk about how it was actually for limited federal government when the slave owning states wanted to the use the federal government as a cudgel to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.

[–]Bloody-Vikings 26ポイント27ポイント  (1子コメント)

"We want to limit the federal government's power to only supporting our continued use of slavery !"

[–]PubliusPontifex 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

We don't believe the government should be involved in people's bedrooms if they aren't gay.

[–][deleted] 33ポイント34ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just wanted to add emphasis to your point that we don't have to prove that a Republican administration would cause the immediate abolition of slavery to claim that the secession was about slavery. Your excerpts from the state secession declarations show that they were worried about a slippery slope, a piecemeal erosion of slavery which they believed had already begun. By 1860, Southerners could not tolerate any screwing around with slavery in any fashion, and to a large degree this is because they were terrified that it could trigger an insurrection. One important factor that had hardened Southern attitudes was John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. When the news first broke, most Northern media portrayed him as a dangerous kook. By the time of his execution, however, attitudes had shifted and he was literally being compared with Jesus Christ. This was a guy who had organized a revolt which he hoped would result in the deaths of thousands of white men, women, and children, and Northerners were lionizing him. Southerners therefore believed that the North was full of John Browns. How could you want unity with such terrorists? I think if we want to understand why the Southern states seceded, it had less to do with dry legal issues and more to do with the very real fear that their throats would be cut while they slept.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man, I wish I could have covered John Brown, or Dredd Scott... but things got pretty long :p

[–]A_Crazy_Canadian 68ポイント69ポイント  (5子コメント)

Now, time to link all those Facebook nut jobs to this to end all disputes over this issue for good.

[–][deleted] 36ポイント37ポイント  (2子コメント)

You assume they can read.

[–]strategolegends 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there a way we can get this whole essay into image macros?

[–]melangechurro 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I prefer memes. One would be best , two if you have to.

[–]Nabokchoy 77ポイント78ポイント  (9子コメント)

Hail be, hail be to this. I had a co-worker accuse me of naive presentism for calling the Confederacy a racist institution. He argued that the South couldn't have been racist until after Emancipation and the passage of the 14th Amendment, because viewing blacks as inferior to whites was an unchallenged part of the culture. Seriously, wtf.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 75ポイント76ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mean, it isn't wrong to say that in the North, racism was normal, and even some abolitionists had what we would now view as a paternalistic racism underlying their motivations, but really, that has little barring on the matter, since by any metric, even adjusting for the time, the views on race in the South were so much more regressive, and there is simply no argument that the Confederacy was a racist and racialist regime.

[–]itsfineitsgreat 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The subtly comes into play when you recognize that the South was aggressively racist and that the war was primarily about slavery, but also in a supporting role, about states rights.

[–]Nabokchoy 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, I wasn't trying to set up a dichotomy between an enlightened North and eeevil racist South. In my role as a non-historian, I'm perfectly happy calling out most of American culture and its institutions as rife with bigotry. We were talking about the Battle Flag, hence the specific focus on the Confederacy. But it's at best laughable and at worst apologia to claim that it's not racist if it's a cultural norm.

[–]rodgerd 28ポイント29ポイント  (5子コメント)

He argued that the South couldn't have been racist until after Emancipation and the passage of the 14th Amendment, because viewing blacks as inferior to whites was an unchallenged part of the culture. Seriously, wtf.

Your co-worker did know that basically the entire Western world had abolished slavery decades before the US civil war, right?

[–]Nabokchoy 29ポイント30ポイント  (4子コメント)

Considering that he just started reading about the Opium Wars so that he could divert conversations about U.S. atrocities onto the awful shit other countries have done, I'm not optimistic. He's your average psuedo-intellectual contrarian: hates imaginary SJWs, casually misogynistic, defends freeze peach AT ALL COSTS, etc.

[–]REdEnt 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

defends freeze peach AT ALL COSTS

Damn dude... that sounds tasty. Where can I get me some of these "freeze" peaches?

[–]reverendfrag4 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you live near Atlanta? King of Pops has 3 peach-based summer flavors.

[–]REdEnt 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah, New Yorker here. I'll be sure to check it out though, if I ever get down to Hot-lanta

[–]Corporal_Rodney 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know this was from 2 weeks ago, but god damn I love King Of Pops. I live in Louisville and our music festival Forecastle is this weekend. There's always 2 or 3 King Of Pops carts on the main walk and I visit them at least twice daily.

[–]masters1125 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm not a historian, but this is fantastic.

Any chance you could condense it down to an image macro so i can post it on facebook?

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 76ポイント77ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]masters1125 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're my hero.

[–]TheAlmightySnark 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

He is not the historian we need, he is the historian we deserve.

[–]willkinton247 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is absolutely perfect. Thank you.

[–]slasher_lash 59ポイント60ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this debunks every single neo-confederate lie I've heard in the last week. Thank you.

I don't know what it is, but people who I've never heard mention anything about the confederacy before in my life have come out of the woodwork to offer their support for that damn flag this week. I live in the midwest, so I think it has something to do with a deathly fear of being "PC." Or agreeing with anything that a "SJW" would support. Just being contrarians I guess.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 57ポイント58ポイント  (7子コメント)

I have no meaningful ground to attack your arguments without looking like an ignorant asshole, so I'll call out your username with obvious socialist overtones and use that in a diversionary tactic to derail the conversation.

1v1 me irl.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 34ポイント35ポイント  (6子コメント)

OK.

[–]banned_by_dadmin 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Notice that tank is going in reverse, which is why you lose if you try to 1v1. Classic russia.

[–]TheAlmightySnark 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

What makes you think it is going in reverse? Looks quite forward-y going to me!

[–]banned_by_dadmin 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Was joke comrade. If man chase Glory tank into Russian winter, man most likely have bad time.

[–]TheAlmightySnark 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should not have doubted glorious party technology or General Winter!

[–]Townsend_Harris 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also note that General Winter is making an appearance.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

You didn't pull an IS-2? For shame :p

[–]smileyman 52ポイント53ポイント  (23子コメント)

Andy Hall (of [deadconfederates.com](deadconfederates.com)) has written a great deal about the myth of black Confederates in the Civil War. Andy Hall has written a great deal about other myths of the war too, deconstructing the tariff myth, the "states' rights" myth, the idea that southern plantation owners were impoverished as a result of Emancipation, and other topics.

He's provided a link summary here for his various articles on the subject.

The long and short of it is that there are no confirmed cases of a black man actually fighting as a soldier in the Confederate Army. Slaves who were taken along to serve their masters would sometimes (rarely) end up fighting in the heat of battle, but of course that doesn't make them an actual soldier and they returned to their slave status as soon as the battle was over (unless they managed to escape to Union lines).

Kevin Levin (of cwmemory.com) has also written extensively about the subject. He's provided a link to some of his posts on the subject here as well as a bibliography and recommended reading for more resources on the subject.

Again the conclusion is the same. Other than men who accompanied their white masters as slaves, there were no black confederates serving in the CSA.

Both Kevin and Andy are well worth reading. Kevin is on twitter @KevinLevin and tweets subjects that don't end up in his blog but are still informative.

Edit:

Hopefully this post is comprehensive enough so that anybody else who's tempted to post Lost Cause badhistory will look at this post and realize it's already been done. (Who am I kidding, right? That'll never happen).

It's not even July 1st yet and we've got two posts on the subject. I might start a pool on how many posts we'll end up seeing by the end of the week.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 28ポイント29ポイント  (19子コメント)

Oh, there be plenty more to cover. This doesn't even touch in military matters such as lionization of Lee or perception of Confederate chances at winning!

[–]Townsend_Harris 27ポイント28ポイント  (4子コメント)

A Yankee (in Northern Virginia no less) once explained southern chances of winning like this.

"The Confederacy never had a chance!"

"Why's that Chris?"

"The 15th Rhode Island Infantry!"

"Who?"

"The 15th Rhode Island Infantry was formed in 1861, never fought a battle and essentially guarded trains the entire war. There were lots of regiments like this in the north. The south was out produced, out manned and out gunned from the beginning."

Somehow I don't think even a bunch of time traveling unrepentant Afrikaners with AK-47s could have changed the course of the war to southern victory.

[–]whatismoo 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

well, no. Lee stopped them, duh

[–][deleted] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Somehow I don't think even a bunch of time traveling unrepentant Afrikaners with AK-47s could have changed the course of the war to southern victory.

Not with that attitude.

I get the reference, though. A rare good book by Turtledove.

[–]Townsend_Harris 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Honestly I liked the Space Lizards and Confederacy wins without time travelers lets fight WWI and WWII on the North American continent more.

My main objection with The Guns of the South is Logistics again. The time machine is described as smallish, certainly not the kind of thing you can drive a truck through. So how would you ship enough AKs and ammunition through it to be worthwhile in time to make a difference? Especially if you're limited to no more than 50-ish guys.

[–]smileyman 25ポイント26ポイント  (12子コメント)

Emancipation Proclamation doing nothing, "Radical" Reconstruction, Lincoln didn't care about slavery . . ., most Southerners didn't own slaves, only 2% (or was it 5% or 10%?) of Confederate soldiers were slave owners, the war was fought over the proposed tariffs in the Morill Tariff, a black man named Anthony Johnson was the first person in America (or North America) to own a slave, Grant the butcher . . .

[–]cespinar 17ポイント18ポイント  (10子コメント)

the war was fought over the proposed tariffs in the Morill Tariff

If only we didn't have dates on these things...lol

[–]smileyman 13ポイント14ポイント  (9子コメント)

The argument goes that the current tariffs plus the proposed new tariffs were so exorbitantly high that the South felt they had no choice but to start a war over them. The reason they didn't stay and try to fight the Morill Tariff act (or at least amend it) was because (so the argument goes) they knew that they were completely outnumbered in the Senate and House and would be automatically voted down on any proposed change.

[–]cespinar 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ah. Just seems weird because IIRC only one state even mentions tariffs in their letter of secession.

[–]smileyman 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh it's complete bull shit as an argument, but it's common enough among Lost Causers (especially those of a more libertarian bent).

[–][deleted] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC the Confederate States of America implemented its own tariff as well.

[–]CuilRunnings -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

How many times did Bush mention oil, the Gulf War, or PNAC in the declarations of war against Afganistan and Iraq?

[–]turtleeatingalderman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of my favorite bs claims relating to this is one that I believe comes from DiLorenzo, which is that Lincoln specifically chose to hold Ft. Sumter because it was an important tariff collection site. Just downright idiotic several times over.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble

[–]seaturtlesalltheway 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or Grant the Butcher. Right up there with Grant the Alcoholic.

[–]Samskii 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Should we just start a mega-thread to post everything in? Keep it all corralled in one place?

[–]smileyman 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. We brought that up in modmail and would have done that had Lost Cause made the moratorium. However the voice of the people have spoken, so they get what they want.

I reserve the right to gloat and cackle maniacally when people start to complain.

[–]Samskii 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is indeed your right as Modman.

[–]isthisfunnytoyou 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just hope turnitin doesn't check reddit.

[–][deleted] 40ポイント41ポイント  (18子コメント)

Actually, I have some evidence that is pretty contradictory to your claims.

Here is a letter from Karl Marx (a know communist sympathizer) written to Lincoln after the civil war

Sir:

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to State Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to State's Rights.

From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class. The contest for the territories which opened the dire epopee, was it not to decide whether the virgin soil of immense tracts should be wedded to the labor of the emigrant or prostituted by the tramp of the tyrannical state government?

When an oligarchy of 9 rebellious states dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, "state's rights" on the banner of Armed Revolt, when on the very spots where hardly a century ago the idea of one great Democratic Republic had first sprung up, whence the first Declaration of the Rights of Man was issued, and the first impulse given to the European revolution of the eighteenth century; when on those very spots counterrevolution, with systematic thoroughness, gloried in rescinding "the ideas entertained at the time of the formation of the old constitution", and maintained federalism to be "a beneficent institution", indeed, the old solution of the great problem of "the relation of state to union", and cynically proclaimed rights for the individual state "the cornerstone of the new edifice" — then the working classes of Europe understood at once, even before the fanatic partisanship of the upper classes for the Confederate gentry had given its dismal warning, that the state's rights loving rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of state power against federal, and that for the centralized democracies, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict on the other side of the Atlantic. Everywhere they bore therefore patiently the hardships imposed upon them by the Sumter crisis, opposed enthusiastically the prostate intervention of their betters — and, from most parts of Europe, contributed their quota of liberty to the good cause.

While the oligarchs, the true political powers of the North, allowed state's rights to defile their own republic, while before the state, dominant and tyranical, they boasted it the highest prerogative of state's rights to seccede them-self and choose a new union, they were unable to attain the true freedom of centralization, or to support their European brethren in their struggle for emancipation; but this barrier to progress has been swept off by the red sea of civil war.

The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American AntiState War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of a powerless federal government and the reconstruction of a politically tyrannical world. [B]

Signed on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, the Central Council:

Longmaid, Worley, Whitlock, Fox, Blackmore, Hartwell, Pidgeon, Lucraft, Weston, Dell, Nieass, Shaw, Lake, Buckley, Osbourne, Howell, Carter, Wheeler, turtleeatingalderman, Stainsby, Morgan, Grossmith, Dick, Denoual, Jourdain, Morrissot, Leroux, Bordage, Bocquet, Talandier, Georgy_K_Zhukov, Dupont, L.Wolff, Aldovrandi, Lama, Solustri, ShroudofTuring, Nusperli, Eccarius, Wolff, Lessner, Pfander, Lochner, smileyman, Kaub, Bolleter, Rybczinski, Hansen, Schantzenbach, Smales, Cornelius, Petersen, Otto, Bagnagatti, Setacci;

George Odger, President of the Council; Turnshroud, Secretary of Freezed Peaches; P.V. Lubez, Corresponding Secretary for France; Karl Marx, Corresponding Secretary for Germany; cordis_melum, Head SJW Correspondent; G.P. Fontana, Corresponding Secretary for Italy; J.E. Holtorp, Corresponding Secretary for Poland; H.F. Jung, Corresponding Secretary for Switzerland; William R. Cremer, Honorary General Secretary.

Seems pretty damning. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 45ポイント46ポイント  (12子コメント)

LINCOLN WAS A FREEDOM HATING, GODDAMN COMMIE!?!? THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING!!!! LONG LIVE THE CONFEDERACY!!!

Seriously though, there is something to be said for a Marxist view of the war, since while the South certainly argued and believed that slavery was a good for everyone, and there is plenty of truth to that fact too, since every aspect of economic life depended on it, it is also true that the elite planter class certainly had a much, much more vested interest in its preservation. A Marxist would argue, I believe (its been a good decade since I read Zinn's characterization of the war), that the poor southern farmer had more in common with the slave's interests than the planter, but that the racialist logic of their society destroyed their class consciousness.

So it is somewhat amusing when you hear people drag out the argument that "the common soldier didn't own slaves! They were defending their homes!" Which has a bit of truth to it, but of course has nothing to do with whether slavery launched the war. 'Cause it has a tinge of a Marxist argument about the war - "The poor white farmer owned no slaves, the planter class had convinced him to fight against his own interests!" - but usually comes from people who would be loath to know their argument was even marginally similar to one a damn Commie would make.

[–][deleted] 20ポイント21ポイント  (7子コメント)

A Marxist would argue, I believe (its been a good decade since I read Zinn's characterization of the war), that the poor southern farmer had more in common with the slave's interests than the planter, but that the racialist logic of their society destroyed their class consciousness.

As a Marxist, you are correct.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–][deleted] 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also the actual letter, as I'm sure you know, said

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.

Source

[–]Townsend_Harris 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is that Marxist as in historical theory or the other kind? =)

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Generally I am supportive of and informed about Marxist interpretations of economics.

[–]Townsend_Harris 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Fair enough. I can never manage to convince myself that it's really all about the economy.

[–][deleted] 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm an anarcho-syndicalist in a perfect world, and a democratic socialist in this one.

[–]PubliusPontifex 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

A: What are you doing here, get thee back to /r/askhistorians where this kind of writing belongs.

2: I can't really fathom the level of tragedy involved in the landed gentry convincing the poor yeoman farmer that they needed to fight and die for their nobility's right to own all the slaves. Even that sentence isn't painful enough to convey how broken the situation was.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just checked. This is the first non-META thread I've done in over a year.

[–]PubliusPontifex 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, I guess we've finally solved history then.

Good job all, have a safe drive home, I'll get the lights.

[–][deleted] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Marxist view is interesting, but imo the best is the one argued in "What This Cruel War Was Over."

Basically, the ability to own slaves was a crucial part of masculine identity. It's abolition risked putting into question the rights and coercive institutions that defined the south at the time.

It's a brutal irony when a flag waver says he's only doing so out of pride for his heritage.......

[–]SwishBender 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

This was hilarious, but those of us with a vested interest in American political discourse would appreciate it if you could keep the knowledge that there was correspondence between Marx and Lincoln to yourself.

[–]farquier 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mean it wasn't extensive correspondence-it was an official letter of congratulations on behalf of a political organization as presidents who get re-elected are wont to receive and the reply was a more or less polite form letter from my understanding. It's not as though Lincoln and Marx had a long and extensive correspondence or Lincoln spent a great deal of time reading Marx's writings although he probably would have approved of workingmen's associations as a thing and may have recognized Marx's name since he had been a correspondent for the New York World Tribune(a quite popular American newspaper of the day).

[–]Townsend_Harris 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was however an Alternate History book where the COnfederacy Succeeded and Lincoln became a Socialist post war. I'm betting Harry Turtledove had something to do with it.

[–]SwishBender 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know. It is just for certain parts of the population in this country a politician is probably better off strangling a puppy than having even the slightest affiliation with Marx.

[–]Long_dan 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dat Karl Marx! He de debbil hisseff!!!!

I thought everyone knew Karl Marx started the war in order to be able to paint the "States Rights" and "Lost Cause" advocates black. He knew that 150 years in the future they would be the only ones brave enough to resist Bernie Sanders.

This whole thing is a result of that. I am hardly surprised that /u/Georgy_K_Zhukov (look at that name!) is doing the work of Karl Marx.

[–]dakotax6 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

Great post. I had someone try to tell me recently that the Corwin Amendment shows that the Civil War wasn't about slavery.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Heh, quite the opposite I'd say. It shows how aware that the Union was that slavery was the cause of southern secession, and that they really wanted to assuage their fears.

[–]turtleeatingalderman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It also somewhat refutes the simplistic "states' rights" arguments, in that an amendment to permanently protect slavery in those states from federal interference wasn't satisfactory to the Deep South (at the very least).

[–]Quouar 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

In 1860, even if they refused to even list him on the ballot, in participating in the Presidential election, the South made implicit promise to accept the results.

I have a question about this. Was there ever really a choice in participating in the election? Could the South ever have said "Nah, we'd rather not?"

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, they certainly could have seceded prior to the election, which at the very least could have been construed as more principled than only leaving when they didn't get their way. But that of course doesn't mean that secession was any more legitimate under the Constitution.

[–]turtleeatingalderman 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm now reinterpreting this whole post as a devious plot to get easy karma for posting gifs.

[–]GothicEmperor 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Similarly, Washington, serving as President of the Constitutional Convention, noted "In all our deliberations on this subject [the perpetuity of the government] we kept constantly in our view that which appears to us the greatest interest of every true American, the consolidation of our Union, in which is involved our prosperity, felicity, safety, perhaps our national existence".1 While it is certainly true that the Constitution made no explicit mention either way as to the correctness of secession, and that some expressed trepidation at the thought secession could not be an option, it is equally true that the issue was addressed at the time of ratification, and it was anti-secession Federalists such as Hamilton and Madison, with clarity of their position, who shepherded it through.2

How relevant is it to debate the legality of secession in the first place? I'm not arguing that the United States had no right to contest it, but secessions in general tend to be opposed and not have legal grounds in the country that's seceded from (at least until a treaty clears everything up afterwards). So it's a bit odd to see that argument brought up.

To me, it seems the 'but it was legal for States to secede'-argument is more of a post-loss revisionist argument to minimalise the extent of the treason the southern states engaged in. Sure, declarations of independence tend to be filled with arguments and grievances as to why the old government should have no more authority, but they hardly ever argue on legalistic grounds (although I should maybe reread the Confederate declarations).

But you know all of this better then I do. The Confederate States do seem to have had a bizarre love-hate relationship with the United States and its institutions, maybe I'm overlooking something.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

To me, it seems the 'but it was legal for States to secede'-argument is more of a post-loss revisionist argument to minimalise the extent of the treason the southern states engaged in.

Absolutely the case. Lost Cause historians inflated the argument after the war.

[–]life_is_like_a_sewer 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

He worked for much of the war to secure the end of slavery, through legal means, in the north, first with the failed bid for compensated emancipation, and then through the 14th Amendment,

You mean the 13th amendment, no? The 14th was passed in order to make the freedmen citizens and give them legal equality, the 13th was passed to actually end slavery.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

...perhaps...

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure it was because I realized I forgot to put the footnote in for number two, so I went through and had to increase all the numbers by one, and probably did that along with the footnotes. The link it correct though! The footnote is correctly for the 13th ;-)

[–]Domini_canes 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

Outstanding work as always, Zhukov. Thank you for taking the time to put all of that together.

Your adoring public awaits.

[–]Spaceman_Jalego 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wao. Now that is a comprehensive review. Well done, Comrade Zhukov!

[–]_watching 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly never got why people go "Well the Union didn't want to abolish slavery, therefore it's not about slavery".

Let me put it this way - if a kid is yelling and screaming about running away because they don't want to make their bed, and the parent is like "yo, you don't have to make your bed, it's ok just stay", does that make the argument less about the bed? Of course not - states responding to this sort of war can be expected to try to make concessions to the opposition's central concerns in order to end the war early.

To put it in other words, why on Earth would Lincoln have taken so much effort to be conciliatory about slavery if the south wasn't centrally concerned with it as a motivator for secession?

[–]IamanIT[🍰] 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is awesome. When I was in college - In south Georgia - I wrote a paper on the Civil War. My first sentence was "the Civil War was a war about slavery" the professor marked it with a big red x and wrote "if you think that you are utterly idiotic" and gave me a 12 on the paper.

[–]AdolfHidekiStalin 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Okay to be fair, that is a lame way to start out a paper. You should make it more like: "The American Civil War was our bloodiest war. With 700,000 casualties on both sides, it remains a topic of controversy among Americans. The cause is hotly debated, but many historians agree the main cause was the issue of slavery."

[–]Rampant_Durandal 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the professor's comment wasn't correct either.

[–]IamanIT[🍰] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, maybe I could have written it better. But your first sentence still would have gotten you marked as utterly idiotic also with this professor.

[–]diddlemethat 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

this is not bad history. this is good history.

[–]IAmNotYourBoss 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm going to need some coffee to work through this over properly.

[–]turtleeatingalderman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

You ought to wikify this post.

[–]noisewar 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

Fantastic post, however it still doesn't rectify something important to me, maybe you can address this. The phrase "the Civil War was/wasn't fought over slavery" is a politically polarizing premise to begin with. The proper way to phrase this debate is "the Civil War was/wasn't fought over the economic and political consequences of slavery". The reason I see the apologists getting so defensive is because the first phrase makes it a moral debate, of which the North was nearly as guilty of.

You quote by Stephens doesn't convince me. It was taken from a purely rhetorical speech, and the bit about slavery comes after a bit about the economics and taxation problems they had. If slavery were not what the South had predicated their wealth on, would we really expect them to still have fought to defend their racial superiority? I'm genuinely asking, not equivocating, educate me.

In the end, the real lesson I feel we haven't taken from history is that you can't forcefully remove an institution without a replacement and expect things to go smoothly. However immoral slavery was, I didn't see a strong alternative offered by the Federal government to transition the South with their wealth, political power, or even dignity intact. Once cornered, it's no surprise they would want to fight a bloody war on a gamut of pretenses.

Historically, when we don't rehabilitate our enemies, the aftermath doesn't end well. Do you feel we've done for the South what we did for Japan and Germany post-WW2? Is the poverty, ignorance, and racism of the South the product of inept post-Civil War reconstruction, esp. from an economic standpoint?

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

The phrase "the Civil War was/wasn't fought over slavery" is a politically polarizing premise to begin with. The proper way to phrase this debate is "the Civil War was/wasn't fought over the economic and political consequences of slavery". The reason I see the apologists getting so defensive is because the first phrase makes it a moral debate, of which the North was nearly as guilty of.

Yes and no. I don't believe that it automatically makes it a moral debate. Frankly, it only does it you are looking to pick a fight. I believe that any reasonably intelligent person can understand that when you make the first statement, you can implicitly be saying "and by slavery, I mean the social, political, and economic underpinnings of the institution as they intertwined with the central being of the Southern way of life", and that if anything, it is disgraceful that that fact isn't easily understood by all. The fact that for some people, you actually do need to qualify the statement as such speaks terribly to the level of education and understanding of the war in the American consciousness.

You quote by Stephens doesn't convince me. It was taken from a purely rhetorical speech, and the bit about slavery comes after a bit about the economics and taxation problems they had. If slavery were not what the South had predicated their wealth on, would we really expect them to still have fought to defend their racial superiority? I'm genuinely asking, not equivocating, educate me.

Convince you of what? While the fire-eaters especially loaded their words with florid appeals to their moral right to own slaves, and even the belief that enslavement was good for the "Negro", I'm not arguing that secession was over the moral right! Stephens defends slavery in that language, to be sure, but the reason it is the 'Cornerstone of the Confederacy' isn't the moral right, but the economic necessity. The moral argument was only a cover for the more practical concerns, the aforementioned social, political, and economic underpinnings.

In the end, the real lesson I feel we haven't taken from history is that you can't forcefully remove an institution without a replacement and expect things to go smoothly. However immoral slavery was, I didn't see a strong alternative offered by the Federal government to transition the South with their wealth, political power, or even dignity intact. Once cornered, it's no surprise they would want to fight a bloody war on a gamut of pretenses.

They had spent half a century trying to kick the can down the road. Everyone knew that it would become a more and more divisive issue, yet the south continued to double down. No, you can't have slavery one day, and emancipation the next and expect a smooth transition, but the only reason that resulted as the 'solution' was because of the war. If you look to the Northern states that eliminated slavery, such as New Jersey, it was generally through a gradual transition, keeping those born slaves in such a condition, while allowing those born to slaves after the date of enactment to be born free. Similar schemes occurred elsewhere, and had Lincoln had his way originally, emancipation would have been a gradual process over many years, with due compensation to owners as warranted. So it isn't like there weren't solutions that were known and tried.

Historically, when we don't rehabilitate our enemies, the aftermath doesn't end well. Do you feel we've done for the South what we did for Japan and Germany post-WW2? Is the poverty, ignorance, and racism of the South the product of inept post-Civil War reconstruction, esp. from an economic standpoint?

Reconstruction was pretty well acknowledged to be a failure, and certainly that was no help to matters, but really, we're getting into post-war economic history that is outside my own studies. I wouldn't want to start opining on how reconstruction could have been done differently to 'save the south' or whatever.

[–]noisewar 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Your points are fair, but I think you overestimate how many "reasonably intelligent" persons are available to understand the depth and scope of what causal effects slavery had. But is New Jersey really a good example of an alternative that the South didn't seize? To my understanding, none of the Northern states had dependency on the slavery institution remotely close to the South.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

The lack of plantation systems in the northern states when they still held slaves does change the nature to a degree of course (NJ population was about 6 percent slave it seems), but I don't think that really changes things... The New Jersey solution could have reasonably worked, I would argue, had the southern planter class been amenable to instituting it, but they were simply too committed to protecting the institution. It ensured a mechanism that a) wouldn't see their workforce immediately melt away and b) gave them a good 25 year window to transition from an enslaved workforce to a free one.

Now, if we look to the actual end of slavery, the result was many of the former slaves still working the same land, just as sharecroppers. The point being, that an immediate transition to emancipation didn't mean the loss of their workforce, and I see no reason why a gradual transition to emancipation would have meant anything different, and if anything, would have allowed them much better time and planning to prepare for it.

[–]noisewar 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a matter of debate, but point taken. Clearly, the South is guilty of not doing their share of the transition as well, most evidenced by their segregation laws enacted during the Reconstruction in defiance of what the North expected.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, any thing said on this point will be necessarily speculative, but I see no inherent reason why slavery couldn't have been ended peacefully and without undue harm to the south (or at least harm to nearly the same degree ending it did take in reality). The main impediment was southern intransigence and attachment to the institution, not the inconceivability of such a plan working.

[–]nihil_novi_sub_sole 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

The phrase "the Civil War was/wasn't fought over slavery" is a politically polarizing premise to begin with.

Should it not be? It wasn't a moral issue for everyone, but you can't act like abolitionists, Radical Republicans, and, you know, all black people didn't have a say in the cause of the war. Hell, two of the biggest direct causes of the war were an abolitionist novel and an abolitionist raid. Plenty of moderates like Lincoln derived their opposition to slavery on a belief that it was wrong, even if they didn't demand immediate abolition.

However immoral slavery was, I didn't see a strong alternative offered by the Federal government to transition the South with their wealth, political power, or even dignity intact.

Why exactly did they deserve to keep their wealth, political power, or dignity? They'd been denying all three to millions for centuries, and cheerfully started again as soon as Reconstruction ended.

You quote by Stephens doesn't convince me. It was taken from a purely rhetorical speech,

Do you like to go around rhetorically stating that you predicate your existence on "the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man" when you don't believe that? Why do you believe he shouldn't be taken at his word? Even if Stevens was speaking rhetorically, what does that say about the audience he was trying to win over?

If slavery were not what the South had predicated their wealth on, would we really expect them to still have fought to defend their racial superiority?

They certainly fought to defend Jim Crow, in many cases when it was completely irrelevant to what they "predicated their wealth on". And a hell of a lot of poor Southerners for whom slavery was nothing but a great way to have lower wages fought to defend it precisely because of white supremacy, since freeing the slaves and giving them equal rights meant they would no longer be guaranteed to not be at the bottom of their society.

Once cornered, it's no surprise they would want to fight a bloody war on a gamut of pretenses.

How anyone can describe the position of slaveowners in 1860 as "cornered" is beyond me. Their wealth and power had done nothing but increase for years up until Lincoln's election, and they started a bloody war nearly as soon as something actually threatened to stop their political gains, let alone actually threaten their power in their own states.

[–]noisewar 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not arguing against you, but from a purely policy perspective, moral superiority doesn't deter wars and poverty, it doesn't build stronger institutions, and effects are long running, as evidenced by this issue's immortality. Whether or not the South deserved their wealth or not is not what I'm arguing. When I use the word "cornered", this is from the POV of the South at the time, not from an enlightened, educated historian from this time. If you ignore their emotions and apply judgement on it, you'll get nowhere rehabilitating them. This is the crux of all stalemate politics today.

[–]nihil_novi_sub_sole 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

moral superiority doesn't deter wars and poverty, it doesn't build stronger institutions, and effects are long running, as evidenced by this issue's immortality.

I'm willing to bet that Reconstruction lasting longer would most certainly have deterred poverty and built stronger institutions in the South; returning power to most of the same people who had started the war did nothing but make blacks less able to compete in the labor market, deny them education, and hold the South back from developing economically, and a moral commitment to continue fighting for the rights of the freemen in the South would absolutely have improved it.

Whether or not the South deserved their wealth or not is not what I'm arguing.

I gathered that. But why would that ever not be part of the argument, or any argument about a political decision? Why discard morality unless it just so happens to clearly not be on your side?

When I use the word "cornered", this is from the POV of the South at the time, not from an enlightened, educated historian from this time.

Any idiot in the 1850s could have recognized that the slaveholding class was not cornered. The Republican party was essentially founded on the observation that the South seemed to be doing quite a bit of cornering itself. You don't have to be a historian 150 years later to know about the Fugitive Slave Act, Bleeding Kansas, or the Dred Scott decision.

If you ignore their emotions and apply judgement on it, you'll get nowhere rehabilitating them.

Again, why rehabilitate them? They were disproportionally influential in the first place, and a great many of them had done enough to be executed for treason. And why the lack of concern for "rehabilitating" the freedmen? They're a rather important part of the South too, but I guess it's fine if they get all but forced back into slavery so long as we "rehabilitate" the elites.

It's fun that you brought up postwar Japan and Germany, since both of those involved a vastly larger shakeup of the power structure and a lot more execution and imprisonment of their leaders than the Confederacy. Hell, the only person executed was a Swiss immigrant, while half the men who led the South into revolt and destruction just strolled back into political power and prosperity. Moral superiority was certainly at play in the Nuremburg trials, which are often cited as one of the biggest reasons Germany has rejected Nazism so strongly since the war ended, and yet you seem to be suggesting that it would have had the opposite effect.

[–]noisewar 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I won't belabor this discussion with my disagreements, but I think a more neutral, empathic view would be more constructive to how we approach the controversy today. I'll just remind that a whole lot of Japanese war criminals also strolled back into political power and prosperity, and that has not been good for their relationship with other Asian countries, and has been a source of inter-Asian racism that I see in my family to this day.

Edit: If it wasn't clear, I'm agreeing with you on an instance of moral superiority, thought I still think economic efforts had a much larger role.

[–]chocolatepot 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think a more neutral, empathic view would be more constructive to how we approach the controversy today.

I understand why you think that because it seems logical, but my experience of arguing/discussing/debating social issues is that it's not constructive. Anybody who's convinced of the Lost Cause and the oppression of the South will take the concessions you make about racism in the North and economic pressures as a triumph on their part, and will continue to disagree on the actual issue while viewing you as partially giving in. It just makes you start to forget that, no, actually abolition was a huge moral cause in the North and the South had ample time to try to phase out slavery or make compromises.

[–]Long_dan 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I enjoyed reading that. Thank you Marshall Zhukov. I don't know why it is so hard to accept. A lot of us would fight to keep our personal cars and trucks in spite of the fact that they are causing environmental problems. The black slaves were literally the driving forces of the Southern economy and they were afraid Lincoln was going to take them away. Look at the endless rhetoric about [insert name of POTUS] is gonna take muh guhnz!! It is all around us today. Why even pretend it was something else unless you have a guilty conscience and need to lie to make yourself feel better?

[–]ShroomyD 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Given that the articles of secession can be seen as literal propaganda pieces, how does it make you feel about using them as sources for your argument?

Could it be that they (and pro slavery rhetoric) were used to fire up rich slave owners to provide economic support for the confederacy and as such left out additional reasons for secession?

What do you think about this argument?

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think that it would be more compelling if the articles of secession were not simply the culmination of decades of evidence that illustrates the importance of slavery to secession. The articles do list other reasons, but slavery is the consistent concern for many decades, and it is neigh impossible to point to another matter so divisive in the national conversation to have led to secession.

[–]ShroomyD 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cheers for the answer.

[–]cleverhandle 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/canvanfan The Civil War was not about slavery, my ass. We're still waiting for all your citations that show otherwise. Also you should rewatch your suggested first episode of KB's Civil War, because contrary to your memory it argues exactly what idspispopd was saying.

cc: /u/idspispopd

[–]FunandFailure 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

So what you're saying is the causes are multifaceted and complicated, with slavery being only a small portion of the causes, along with state's rights, tarriffs, and taxes?

Edit: jfc people, obviously /s.

[–]TheMightyChodeMonger 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

/s?

[–]LarryMahnken 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

"s" is for slavery.

[–]freedmenspatrol 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard that argument made seriously so many times. That and its frequent dancing partner: that the poor, nonslaveholding white had no interest in slavery but his support was ginned up by elites who double secret wanted to go to war over a few cents on the tariff or to make an arcane constitutional point. Pay no attention to what the elites told one another in the secession conventions, of course. Primary sources only enter into it when they're downplaying or ignoring slavery.

[–]willkinton247 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I regret that I have but one upvote to give for this post.

[–]rdfox 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sorry, but if you're not a history professor you should consider becoming onr. This is the kind of reasoned and cited shit we ass-yards live for. Keep up the good work.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope, just an interested party :)

[–]ShizukaRose 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Great post. It has been frustrating arguing with people about this on facebook.... My fear is that the revisionist version will continue to prevail because a lot of schools seem to be only teaching the Lost Cause version, especially down south.

[–]PubliusPontifex 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

My fear is that the revisionist version will continue to prevail because a lot of schools seem to be only teaching the Lost Cause version, especially down south.

As someone who went to school 'down south', what kind of commie goes around rewriting history to ignore the tragic plight of the gallant confederacy?

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had the same history teacher teach the "states rights" cause and that Napoleon and Hitler were defeated largely by General Winter.

[–]davidreiss666 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, this is new the definitive reddit-link/work on the subject.

The only thing I would add is a quote from former Confederate General James Longstreet, responding to a question asking him what he thought the cause of the Civil War was: "If it wasn't about slavery, then I don't know what else it was about".

But then, Neoconfederate apologists don't care about actual facts.

[–]yoda133113 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What is your opinion on dividing the reasons for the secession from the reasons for the war? As in, what is your opinion on the following statement: "Obviously the secession led to the war, but the war should not be said to be about slavery just because it was the cause for the secession."

Thank you for your wonderful post and your time.

[–]Georgy_K_Zhukov[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Statements like that only make sense if slavery was a "flavor of the month". That is to say, if, that while slavery was the immediate cause of secession, secession could be viewed as inevitable even if it is removed from the equation. There is little to support that contention. It can be well demonstrated that slavery was the singularly important and unique factor in the road to secession, and that there is no other issue which can be more closely tied to the rising sectionalism and disunion that eventually led to the Civil War. There simply is no other issue that we can clearly point to and say "even if slavery wasn't an issue, that would have caused it anyway!"

The North did not go to war with abolition as its battle cry, rather Lincoln went to war to preserve the Union and fight what he saw (correctly, I argue above) as an illegal secession, whether that meant freeing all the slaves or none, but that misses the point. No secession, no war. No slavery, no secession. The causal chain is irrefutable. So as I said, slavery is the cause for the war. While I think that often when people say that, or hear it, they might not take it be the complex statement that it is - which I have tried to deconstruct in the essay - and instead see it at face value only, it is absolutely true.

[–]yoda133113 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

subheadings are your friend especially given the scope of the badhistory being discussed (double Astrix or hashtag).