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[–]mudsill 132ポイント133ポイント  (39子コメント)

A friend of mine from college recently posted some similar screed from the Abbeville Institute contrasting Lee's march through Maryland and Pennsylvania to Sherman's March to the Sea.

Dude compared Sherman's actions to ethnic cleansing, a repopulation campaign, etc. And then said that Lee ordered no retaliation on the civilian population when he was up North. This can only be true for you if you do not consider black people to be humans, as forces under Lee (almost certainly with his knowledge) kidnapped up to 1,000 African-Americans during that campaign and sold them into slavery.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 87ポイント88ポイント  (20子コメント)

Confederate troops were also notorious for stealing food and burning fence rails.

[–]MasterMastermnd 51ポイント52ポイント  (13子コメント)

I grew up in a town sacked during Morgan's Raid lol

[–]Jeroknite 104ポイント105ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wow you're really old.

[–]MasterMastermnd 48ポイント49ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right when I figured out the horseless carriage I had to learn this dang ol internet thing

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

We might have to add a category to our BH censuses.

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

me too thanks

[–]PocketSocket 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did you really laugh out loud when the town was sacked? Odd.

[–]Tolnipagan pirate from the coasts of Bulgaria 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

So I decided to google that, being an ignorant Euro, and instead, I found this!.

[–]MasterMastermnd 21ポイント22ポイント  (5子コメント)

We like to lionize the Confederacy over here. My high school mascot was a Confederate soldier. In a town, part of a Union state, that was razed in the 1800s by Confederate soldiers. Also the best part of the Morgan's Raid story is that they stole a bunch of hams at one point and they went bad before Morgan's soldiers could eat them, so the Union soldiers tracked them by following a trail of fly-swarmed hams along the countryside.

[–]knife_missilehistory is written by the winters 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

"...and you shall know us by our trail of pork."

[–]malphonso 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Don't forget that in every southern town with two or more schools, at least one of them will be named some variation of Robert E. Lee.

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuck you're old

[–]NovaNardis 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Confederacy was also really good at not counting black people as humans.

[–]LarryMahnken 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

No, they gave them worthless "money" in exchange!

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

They did both. In addition to the "purchased" supplies, livestock, crops, fruit trees, and fence rails "disappeared" whenever one of the great armies passed through a region.

[–]LarryMahnken 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm just making smartass comments here. Avoid ever taking me seriously.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hope you didn't get the impression I was attacking you. I intended my reply to clarify my first statement, nothing more.

[–]LarryMahnken 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely not! I was just telling you my comment didn't require a serious reply. :-)

[–]Crow7878When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. -Mr. Grey 33ポイント34ポイント  (17子コメント)

This can only be true for you if you do not consider black people to be humans

I see why many neo-confederates are often self-identified rednecks, because facts burn.

Do you think that quote might work well as a flair?

[–]mudsill 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you think that quote might work well as a flair?

wouldn't recommend it. Without the context, it looks pretty awful.

Unfortunately though, there are tons of people where I'm from that wholeheartedly believe that the Confederate armies were all noble yeoman farmers who only fought for their home and hearth. In order to get to that point you'd have to completely ignore what those armies did to African-Americans they held in bondage or met on the march--with rebel soldiers and officers acting as captors, kidnappers, and sometimes murderers. This part of Confederate history doesn't even register with some of that crowd.

It's not anything you bother to fucking think of when you imagine the Civil War to be a few young Southern men gloriously (and cleanly) dying and going to Dixie Heaven while General Lee frees the slaves and Lincoln kills himself in his bunker. Neoconfederates and Leeaboos already have their sanitized and mythologized vision of the Civil War and antebellum South. There's not enough space in their minds to fit the legacy of slavery in there.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (9子コメント)

Hey, I'm a redneck. Nothing innately wrong with being a country boy from the South.

[–]KodiakAnorakWehrabae 18ポイント19ポイント  (7子コメント)

I dislike that we have conflated "country" with "redneck"

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's more that redneck has acquired racist/reactionary connotations. The word (I believe) was originally a term of derision applied by the planter class to yeomen who worked their own farms and poor whites who did manual labor for pay. That's the class of people I come from - yeomen and poor whites - and so I'm not ashamed to call myself a redneck. I would rather be a redneck than a cavalier or a gentleman.

[–]HetzerBelka did nothing wrong 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would rather be a redneck than a cavalier or a gentleman.

Roundhead pls go

[–]FeragornTime Traveling Space Jew 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or worse, a Clevelander.

[–]gingerkid1234The Titanic was a false flag by the lifeboat-industrial complex 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's not be sexist--they're yeopeople.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

a cavalier or a gentleman.

Carpetbaggers, the lot of 'em.

[–]Crow7878When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. -Mr. Grey 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would have put a disclaimer, but the wordplay was screaming in my ears, so I had to settle for a quick solution of "self-identified", especially since some of the neo-confederates' "rednecks'" only relations to the sun were the popped-collars betwixt them.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

That might be bit too irreverent for a flair, but then again terrible things have been written in users' flairs here in the past. I don't encourage it, but I also won't ban you.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollJupiter was a planet. 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't encourage it, but I also won't ban you.

That's not very fascist of you.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist[M] 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

Banned.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunMud, Steel, and Broken Transmissions 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

So are you supporting fascism or against it?

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist[M] 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't even know anymore.

[–]TiberiCorneli 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

In the words of Ayn Milton Keynes, we are all fascists now.

[–]hborrggThat would take a lot of Baghdad Batteries. 382ポイント383ポイント  (52子コメント)

In what way was Sherman's army "industrial?"

Um, he was using riflemen? It's literally one of the first Industrial Era units you get.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 187ポイント188ポイント  (16子コメント)

I will throw a well-used spitoon at your head.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 37ポイント38ポイント  (11子コメント)

In my definition a 'well-used spitoon' is one that has been thoroughly neglected, and which has never touched saliva or any other bodily emission.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 58ポイント59ポイント  (1子コメント)

You wouldn't like my idea of a well-used spitoon at all. Not at all.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 31ポイント32ポイント  (0子コメント)

We'll agree to agree on that particular assertion.

[–]lolpierandomPearl Harbor was an Inside Job 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't want a spitoon lobbed at my head, well used or not, honestly.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but we have to assume a very limited set of luxuries.

[–]TiberiCorneli 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

any other bodily emission.

Is it still called a spitoon if you're putting other things in it?

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

We have chamber pots for that, heathen.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

A shitoon, as it were.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know, and I don't think I care to find out.

[–]Rumhand 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

In my definition a 'well-used spitoon' is one that has been thoroughly neglected, and which has never touched saliva or any other bodily emission.

I think that's an unused spitoon.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

Was that spitoon made in an industrial setting?

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 27ポイント28ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, it was smelted, forged, and polished by an artisanal blacksmith in Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas.

Who am I kidding? Of course we bought it from the Yankees.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just assumed that the spittoon was a Volcano.

[–]Halinn 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You shouldn't go around making assumptions like that. Check your geological privilege, schistlord.

[–]BrowsOfSteel 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

No way. Gatling guns, cavalry, and often artillery come first. Riflemen bring up the rear along with ironclads.

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 52ポイント53ポイント  (8子コメント)

This. America was currently in the Industrial era after all.

[–]Murrabbit 57ポイント58ポイント  (0子コメント)

You could tell by the tileset of the buildings.

[–]thaddeus_v 145ポイント146ポイント  (15子コメント)

Oooh, time for one of my favorite friend-of-a-friend stories. Anthony, if you're reading this, sorry for stealing your story.

Anyway, the friends-of-a-friend in question are a handful of college kids in Maine in maybe the late 90s or thereabouts. And they're basically broke and not particularly good at planning and so the day before spring break starts one of them decides that they should all go down to Florida. Of course, the only sensible way to do that is to pile everyone into a car and haul ass down the eastern seaboard. Everything goes fine (perhaps surprisingly) until they hit Georgia. As I was told the story, they were doing about 95 and the instant they cross the state line a cop car pulls out behind them and starts up a siren. So they pull over and the cop that comes out the car is basically the guy from Smokey and the Bandit. He's got the big hat, the mirror shades, the extra doughnut weight, he would have friggin' spurs on his boots if it wasn't against regulation. So he sidles up to the window, leans over and drawls, "Boy, ain't no one roll through Georgia that fast." And this kid (who, let me remind you, is not some sort of Southern transplant who went to school in Maine or anything, these kids are as Yankee as the day is long) puts on a huge shit-eating grin and replies, "Weeeellll, not since Sherman."

So this cops face just starts turning different colors and the driver is sitting there wondering if this guy has a heart attack can they charge him with like negligent homicide on the grounds of being an asshole. Eventually the cop regains enough composure to decide that he's arresting them all on the spot and handcuffs everyone he can and throws them all in a cell until someone else at the station talks him down and reminds him how much paperwork it'll be to actually go to court with a bunch of dumbass Yankees who aren't worth the trouble. So the kids all get cut loose and I have no idea if they ever made it to Florida, but I'm pretty sure they drove a little slower on the way back north.

[–]MRRoberts 62ポイント63ポイント  (3子コメント)

I half expected this story to end with one of the kids needing to call their cousin Vinny for help.

[–]princeimrahil 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

What is a YEWT?

[–]HetzerBelka did nothing wrong 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know, a yoot.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope, they just called Joe Pesci directly.

[–]derlethLiterally Hitler: Adolf's Evil Twin 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

So this cops face just starts turning different colors and the driver is sitting there wondering if this guy has a heart attack can they charge him with like negligent homicide on the grounds of being an asshole.

Not a heart attack, but a shart attack.

That is, he damn near crapped his pants.

[–]phoenixbasileus 35ポイント36ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's some next level bantz right there

[–]Nowhere_Man_Forever 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

Holy shit those kids are dumb asses. Making Sherman jokes to a Georgian is just asking for trouble, especially if he's a cop.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 75ポイント76ポイント  (0子コメント)

I take it as a sign of progress that they weren't worked over with billy clubs for a good half-hour behind the courthouse.

As an aside, one of my father's favorite lawyer jokes is about the time an associate of his got a call from a client in a rural county jail in western NC. The client told his attorney that "they're beating me." In the background, the lawyer heard one of the sheriff's deputies holler something to the effect of "you told him we're beating on you? We'll give you something to cry about!"

[–]crazyeddie123 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit those kids are dumb asses.

I know, right? Sherman's troops went through on foot, it took weeks for them to cross, ain't no way they were going even close to 95 miles per hour!

[–]Thaddeus_StevensLincoln didn't even know about slavery. 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm the superior Thaddeus.

[–]myfriendscallmethorLindisfarne was an inside job. 181ポイント182ポイント  (44子コメント)

[–]shahryarrakeenPeanut butter was spread by the sword 54ポイント55ポイント  (16子コメント)

one of my fantasies is starting an Major League Soccer ultra with a Union army theme to bug Southern fans.

[–]sophandros 64ポイント65ポイント  (12子コメント)

The Columbus Crew welcome Atlanta to the MLS.

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2014/4/16/5621224/general-sherman-doe

[–]CupBeEmpty 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

Seriously though, I have very rarely encountered fans as rabid as Crew fans. It is absolutely awesome to go to a game.

[–]analton 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

You should come to see a match in Argentina... ;)

[–]CupBeEmpty 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

I should have qualified that with "in the US"

[–]analton 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Doesn't matter. If you enjoy to see how "soccer" fans behave, you should come and see what we do. (brb gotta wash my hands after writing "soccer")

[–]CupBeEmpty 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is just how you say it in God's language. I have a couple good friends from Buenos Aires and both have offered me a spot at their families homes so I really do have to visit sometime. No idea when it might happen though.

[–]BZH_JJMWelcome to /r/AskReddit adventures in history! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you manage to find a ticket, try to get to a Cascadia Cup game.

[–]Cromasters 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe he should be the new mascot of the Columbus Blue Jackets.

[–]hussard_de_la_mortlutefisk cannot break through the ice of the eurasian steppe 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

William Tecumseh BOBROVSKY

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Marching Shermie?

[–]MRRoberts 119ポイント120ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–][deleted] 51ポイント52ポイント  (2子コメント)

[–]TiberiCorneli 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have never set foot but I'm pretty sure any town named after Nathaniel Macon is, like, contractually obliged to be a total shithole, just to keep the old man's legacy alive.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

A music history professor of mine did a family tour of the South and showed us the footage. Macon sure did look like a shithole, but it also gave us Little Richard so swings and roundabouts.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

The only thing worse is when you talk shit about Dre. You'd have to get a vest!

[–]LuckyRevenantThe Roman Navy Annihilated Several Legions in the 1st Punic War 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's also generally smart not to talk like he doesn't have any guns. I mean, do you think he sold em all?

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, certainly not worth risking being wrong. Far better be it to invest in something to protect your head and neck.

[–]Nowhere_Man_Forever 21ポイント22ポイント  (9子コメント)

Damn as a southerner I feel like I shouldn't laugh at this.

[–]lmortisxSinging the chorus from Atlanta to the sea. 38ポイント39ポイント  (8子コメント)

I once knew a girl from Atlanta who fit all of the negative parts of the southern belle stereotype. When she got frustrating, I would go and listen to "Marching Through Georgia."

[–]Aidinthel 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

I would go and listen to "Marching Through Georgia.

What version do you listen to? I've had trouble locating a high-quality recording that preserves the original tune and lyrics. Same for "Battle Cry of Freedom", which seems even worse, if anything.

[–]lmortisxSinging the chorus from Atlanta to the sea. 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

I tend to listen to this version, though I like the Tennessee Ernie Ford version too.

[–]Aidinthel 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah, that version's ok, but those silly sound effects on the second verse bothered me more and more every time I listened to it. And Ford's version drops that verse entirely (quite understandably, but still) as well as the fourth (less understandably). I eventually settled for dropping the "high-quality" requirement and went old-school.

I also just a few minutes ago found a decent version of "Battle Cry". I'm not 100% sold on the style, but it's a professional-quality recording that has both the "million freemen more" and "not a man shall be a slave" lines, thus potentially making it completely unique as far as I can tell.

[–]lmortisxSinging the chorus from Atlanta to the sea. 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

That version of "Battle Cry" is interesting. I would say that it sounds a bit more formal than I typically look for when listening to Civil War songs. OTOH, it is clearly well done.

I like that old-school version of "Marching." Thanks for sharing it.

[–]Aidinthel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would say that it sounds a bit more formal than I typically look for when listening to Civil War songs. OTOH, it is clearly well done.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts, too. I decided that I really wanted to hear both those lines, and was willing to give a little on the 'feel' of the song to get them.

[–]Waterproof_Moose 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not sure this hits your criteria but this is my favorite version of 'Marching' by one of my favorite bands. Apologies for the link as I'm on mobile: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nEf2nuH_Xc

[–]spidermonk 26ポイント27ポイント  (4子コメント)

Probably bad history also, but a good rant on Sherman's 'atrocities': https://pando.com/2014/11/20/the-war-nerd-why-sherman-was-right-to-burn-atlanta/

[–]nrith 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

From way before the war, when Sherman was a professor at a military academy in Louisiana, his attitude toward the South’s Planter culture was like a fond uncle watching his idiot nephew stumbling into a fast car, planning to drive drunk into the nearest tree.

The best quote from an article full of good quotes.

[–]angsmask 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

This was an awesome read, thank you!

[–]PolitusThe Civil War was about Wahhabism, not Slavery 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oooh I love the War Nerd. His history isn't always the best, but damn does he make a point.

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, his articles are full of bad history. In one article, he claims that Hezbollah defeated an Israeli army which outnumbered them 100:1 during the 2006 Lebanon war. In reality, the Israeli force numbered about 10,000 for most of the war, briefly increasing to 30,000 towards the end. Hezbollah had at least 1000 men, not counting reserves. While still an impressive achievement, claiming that is 100:1 is /r/badmathematics.

People here seem far more tolerant of some sorts of bad history than other sorts.

[–]TaylorS1986The Holodomordor has been greatly exaggerated. 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stealing this!

[–]smileyman 44ポイント45ポイント  (4子コメント)

Noah Andre Trudeau's Southern Storm: Sherman's March to the Sea is a fantastic account of what actually went down.

For example, despite the supposed ravaging of the countryside by Sherman's forces, not a single recorded case of starvation happened along the path of Sherman's army.

There's only one recorded case of rape. It's highly likely that there were more incidents, given that this was an army of 50,000 men marching through enemy territory, but the fact that we only have one recorded case of us tells us that the instances of it must have been low.

There are no recorded cases of executions of CSA soldiers or southern militia. OTOH, there are documented cases of executions of Union soldiers by CSA soldiers or southern militia.

Basically Sherman's "March to the Sea" has been greatly exaggerated by both the South (for the pity or for the outrage or whatever reason), and by veterans of the march (pride of conquest?), leading to this weird state of affairs where it's held up in national memory as this huge event that totally ravaged the South.

And ironically enough, the one time that Sherman can be legitimately be accused of committing war crimes (both in contemporary terms as well as modern terms) is never, ever mentioned by the "Sherman is the devil incarnate!" crowd.

Outside of Atlanta Sherman's army was approaching a fort that had a long road/causeway leading to it. This road/causeway had been laid with mines, and Sherman ordered Confederate prisoners to go and dig them up. This is a legitimate war crime, and even at the time it made opposing commanders furious and caused some debate within his own army. IIRC there were some Union soldiers who were so appalled by this that they actually volunteered to go with the Confederate POWs to help dig (though I'd have to look up the specifics again to make sure).

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Great post. Really, thank you; I didn't know about the rape aspect.

What drives me absolutely nuts is that this hyperfocus on the March to the Sea leads people to think that it was a uniquely destructive event, or that Georgia was the only state ravaged by the war. A year of campaigning had turned northern Virginia into a near-desolate waste by summer 1862, and that was without any deliberate attempts at destruction by the two armies. The destruction spread through much of Virginia in the ensuing three years.

Large armies of relatively undisciplined conscripts tear stuff up. They steal livestock, burn up fence rails, cut down fruit trees, pilfer crops from fields, and generally play hell with the countryside. It's unavoidable. So, is it better to use targeted destruction to achieve an end, or to ravage the countryside and kill untold thousands by allowing a stalemate to continue?

[–]Durzo_BlintSauron did nothing wrong. 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

People seem to forget that warfare was incredibly messy throughout history. Peasants and farmers had a tendency to get screwed over by their own armies as often as the enemy.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

A year of campaigning had turned northern Virginia into a near-desolate waste by summer 1862, and that was without any deliberate attempts at destruction by the two armies.

Every winter camp of the Army of Northern Virgina got more difficult to supply, since foraging parties had to move further and further to find anything of value.

The deep irony of the Civil War is that the cries of "save the Southern Heritage" and whatnot of then and now resulted in a complete loss of the rural society that made the South the South (if you listen to Southerners), because city folk could generally afford to buy out of conscription, but didn't produce food, so the yeomanry and subsistence farmers going to war made it harder to fight the selfsame war.

Something the (failed) farmer Grant recognized, which is why the Army of NoVA got to keep its horses: They were needed as draft animals so that the starving populace could be fed. But hey, Grant is a butcher, which is why he let Lee's men starve at Appomattox.

[–]Guy_de_NolastnameHitler did *something* wrong 87ポイント88ポイント  (13子コメント)

"ONLY THE WINNERS WRITE THE NARRATIVE! SHERMAN WAS A GENOCIDAL MANIAC!"

[–]snapekillseddard 50ポイント51ポイント  (12子コメント)

That fucking Victor, the scamp!

[–]AThrowawayAssholeKristallnacht was just subsidies for glaziers 30ポイント31ポイント  (3子コメント)

Victor, always getting the last word. I can't stand that arrogant s.o.b

[–]BiLaKaifaI hereby move that this riot be tabled for an indefinite period. 25ポイント26ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not to mention the spoils, jeez

[–]Jeroknite 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's the one who's spoiled.

[–]AThrowawayAssholeKristallnacht was just subsidies for glaziers 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right? Bastard should show a little magnanimity.

[–]princeimrahil 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Victor? I don't even KNOW her.

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Transistor! I barely know her!

[–]Guy_de_NolastnameHitler did *something* wrong 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thermidor? Yeah, but that was years ago!

[–]alekzander01white Nordic thinkers like Socrates and Aristotle 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Congrats Bill, here's your PhD in history! As is tradition, you are hereby named Victor!"

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

History is forever being written by THE victor

[–]Thaddeus_StevensLincoln didn't even know about slavery. 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

All history has always been and will always be written by the immortal Victor Emmanuel II.

[–]Knight117 38ポイント39ポイント  (22子コメント)

Out of curiosity, what -would- you say is an 'industrial army'? It brings to mind the Prussian army against the French in 1870, but also the mass mobilisation and incredible output of the various military forces during the First World War.

Does an 'industrial army' move in a certain way? Fight in a certain way? Is it commanded primarily by telegraph rather than messenger? Or is it centered around a supply system?

I just think the term 'industrial' is a really shite way of labeling a military force. That guy was a right muppet.

[–]BrotherSeamusThe fierce warriors of Alderaan would never have surrendered! 72ポイント73ポイント  (3子コメント)

what -would- you say is an 'industrial army'?

Lots of brass and glass, plenty of unnecessary cogs

[–]Scrumz_ 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just slap some gears on it, and call it steaaampuunk!

[–]AmericanSuitMcCarthyism was about ethics in games journalism 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the trendy fashion now-a-daaaa-aays.

[–]BZH_JJMWelcome to /r/AskReddit adventures in history! 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

And airships! Lots of airships!

[–]_handsome_peteXerxes did nothing wrong, reparations for Thermopylae 41ポイント42ポイント  (7子コメント)

The only industrial armies are the ones that use Nazi super weapons, duh. The Wehrmacht was the only industrial army ever because of Krupp stahl and invincible Tiger tanks

[–]P-01SGod made men, but RSAF Enfield made them civilized. 31ポイント32ポイント  (5子コメント)

Which is funny, because the Wehrmacht was barely mechanized. They used horses for the majority of their transport.

[–]Knight117 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

Horse Help Hitler. DON'T DO HORSES.

But seriously, I remember hearing this in a lecture and chuckling at the poetic coincidence of it.

[–]Durzo_BlintSauron did nothing wrong. 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC 2/3 of the force marching towards Stalingrad was horse drawn. Something like 2 million horses that ended up being slaughtered for food when the Sovieted encircled them and the German army starved. I think most people tend to forget this because they focus so much on how rapidly their tanks moved, even if they were only a small part of the army.

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Barely" is an understatement. They were more mechanised than most European armies at the time. Horses were still in wide use around the world.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfThe Destroyer/Unbanned Snake 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Barely" is an understatement. They were more mechanised than most European armies at the time. Horses were still in wide use around the world.

This is patently false.

The credit to the first 'fully mechanized' army goes to the British, actually. All 'at-home' yeomen and cavalry regiments with the exception of those found in the 1st Cavalry Div. were fully mechanized by the end of the 1930s.

Draft horses disappeared as well, making only occasional re-appearances when terrain necessitated or strongly suited it.

This is in great contrast to the Germans, who began to rely more and more on draft-horses by war's end, and were already heavily dependant on foot-mobile and horse-draft artillery and infantry. Pre-war, of the 10 divisions that formed the Reichswehr, a full three were Cavalry.

The Cavalry forces of the Wehrmacht and SS actually expanded as the war went on, with the aberration of the Wehrmacht's cavalry division becoming the 24.Panzer. The SS expanded to at least 2 full Cavalry divisions, and we have confirmed instances of Ost-Reiter-Abteilungs in action in both Brittany and Army Group Center and South's area. This is limiting my list to units that wore the German tunics alone, not counting other units ostensibly under the Axis umbrella, such as the Rumanians, Italians and Hungarians who all retained significant mounted forces.

The expansion of the combat-oriented horse mounted arms and the usage of draft animals in general is only matched by the expansion and usage of horses by the Soviet military.

[–]alekzander01white Nordic thinkers like Socrates and Aristotle 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

So mechanized, the horse drawn Carts were actually cyborg horses

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

An Industrial Army is something that uses the industrial powers of a nation. The factory and the railroad.

[–]LXT130J 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

what -would- you say is an 'industrial army'?

There are certain features I think one could associate with industrial war and below are my criteria; of course any model is prone to its lapses and I would appreciate any additions or alternative perspectives

1) mass mobilization of men

2) movement of troops and materiel by railroad or motorized transport

3) professional officer corps

4) military forces coordinated by a general staff or some other controlling authority

5) communication by telegraph, radio or some other remote means

6) mass production of war materiel to arm and provision large amounts of men

[–]smileyman 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

There were certainly parts of the Union army that could be considered industrialized.

Grant made great use of railroad transport for example, as well as having corps of engineers building telegraph lines to wherever he was so he could keep in contact with D.C.

That's certainly not true of Sherman's army though. It cut loose from all of it's supply lines (even though it did march with dozens of supply wagons and huge herds of animals--Sherman wasn't a complete idiot after all) and communication lines.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

Supply system. Conventional thought at the time was that railways, or at least a giant supply train, are required, and an army couldn't live off the land any more, like it could during Napoleon.

Then General Scott took Mexico City after cutting loose from his supply base, Grant paid attention, while Lee and Jackson were being Top of the Class Southern Gentlemen, told Sherman, and the South got butthurt because Lee couldn't even get boots out of a country town in PA.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't be so quick to write off Lee. He was, after all, Scott's chief scout and the man who made possible his brilliant turning movements that cleared the way to Mexico City. His two invasions of the North were aggressive slashing thrusts far from his base of supplies or communications and reliant on liberal foraging (some of it was paid for in Confederate scrip, but troops cleaned the country out regardless) by his army.

[–]mindbleach 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mechanization, maybe? One massive difference over time is the presence of automatic weapons and tanks.

[–]Nadack 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well "industrial" strongly implies the use of factories in some context. Warlike activities would most likely involve the products of factories such as machined weapons, packaged foodstuffs, mechanized transportation, and any other products that require an organized factory setting to achieve their various goals. So I would define an "industrial" army as one that relies primarily or entirely on factory made products to achieve its goals. The armies of the mid 19th century used both factory produced material and traditional skilled labor made materials, so they could be called "industrial" if one wants to, but it fails to truly describe the nuances of the situation.

[–]Durzo_BlintSauron did nothing wrong. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think one could seriously consider the Union army an industrial army. If not, it was a direct precursor to the first industrial armies that fought in Europe a few years later.

[–]eighthgearOh, Allemagne-senpai! If you invade me there I'll... I'll-!!! 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's always struck me that anyone who thinks that Sherman's March was some revolutionarily terrible war crime should read up about the chevauchée of the Hundred Year's War, just one example of the many times in which an army has waged war by attacking the economy of the enemy.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

I couldn't agree more. If he thinks Sherman's men were rough, he's clearly never been on the receiving end of a medieval raid. During one of the rebellions against Henry II, a large company of mercenaries was attacked and captured after ravaging a significant stretch of countryside. The victorious force executed them in an unusually brutal fashion, and the excuse given was that the mercenaries had been peculiarly vicious and destructive. There was probably a class component as well - the knightly aristocracy hated and despised the new phenomenon of mercenary companies and rarely lost the opportunity to shit talk them - but there may have been a kernel of truth to the allegation.

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

What was the unusually brutal fashion?

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

In 1182 (I think) the future Richard I, then Duke of Aquitaine, caught up with a large band of Brabancon mercenaries in the employ of Viscount Aimar of Limoges, a rebelling lord. His small cavalry force fell upon them while they were in the process of looting a church, he killed their leader in personal combat, the Brabancons routed, and many were captured. In the words of John Gillingham "many of the routiers were captured, dragged to Aixe, where some were drowned in the river Vienne, others put to the sword and the rest blinded."

[–]Delzak 34ポイント35ポイント  (9子コメント)

I love how he decides that you're probably cool with the use of armies against civilians because you disagreed with him.

[–]spidermonk 50ポイント51ポイント  (8子コメント)

And as a non-American, it seems fairly obvious that one of your bigger national mistakes was killing way too few civilians at the end of the Civil War. Like a mass hanging of traitors, a complete purging of the southern planter class, and an aggressive occupation and redistribution of resources enforced by rifles for the next generation or two would have really sharpened the place up I think. If Sherman's foragers rank on your list of outrages then you got off pretty lightly for killing hundreds of thousands of your fellow countrymen.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 53ポイント54ポイント  (5子コメント)

The North could scarcely muster the will to enforce their own constitutional amendments, and that only for eight or nine years after the war. The withdrawal of federal protection for the freedmen after about 1875 was a moment of true national infamy. It took two to make Jim Crow: southern whites to push for it, and northern whites who consciously sat back and let it happen for the sake of restored sectional relations.

[–]spidermonk 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I've been reading Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution on add off for the last year, and it really makes you wonder how different the texture of the US might be now if there'd been more sustained political will to protect / support ex slaves.

[–]TiberiCorneli 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

and northern whites who consciously sat back and let it happen for the sake of restored sectional relations.

Don't forget the branch of Radical Republicans (among them Charles Sumner, who I generally liked quite a lot) who decided that because the slaves were free and the Confederate nationalism was "defeated" their goals had been achieved and everyone should go home. Actually Sumner just kind of pisses me off from the year 1870 onwards, come to think of it.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's a great book on the topic called Reforging the White Republic. The thesis is that during the Civil War a new nationalism based not on race but on loyalty developed in the Union states. While this held sway blacks, who formed a key component in the Union coalition, could be valued and respected above traitorous white southerners. But after the war, this sentiment went quickly on the wane, and many northerners who had previously been abolitionist or strongly anti-slavery eased up. Justified in part by the Christian commandments of forgiveness, mercy, and charity, they increasingly desired a reunification of white Anglo-Saxons (nativism making a comeback), but southern whites held out. Their price was to be given a free hand in maintaining their domestic tranquility, and by about 1875 northern whites were ready to pay it. If the freedmen had to be abandoned, then so be it. Not only would the North not force the South to respect blacks' newly enshrined constitutional rights, both sides conspired to write them out of the war narrative, framing the conflict as a struggle over constitutional principles and Union between whites. It's a deeply troubling book, IMO.

[–]smileyman 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Grant deserves far more credit as a President than he gets because of his actions regarding civil rights. He sent Federal troops into the South to ensure the rights of freed slaves. A side benefit is that he destroyed the first KKK. He passed some pretty progressive legislation, which was later struck down by the Supreme Court. In fact, legislation that he got passed was actually used in the '60s to prosecute the murderers of civil rights workers.

[–]TiberiCorneli 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, and Grant was actually one of the Radicals who wanted to maintain Reconstruction. Sumner is just...weird. He was probably the least racist person in America throughout his life, pretty much far and away the biggest champion of full civil rights for blacks among white folks, and he stood up for others as well (somewhat notably he argued the Chinese should be allowed to naturalize just like anyone else and called the rest of Congress a bunch of anti-Chinese racists who were betraying the Declaration, at a time when basically the whole country was riding the wave of anti-Chinese hysteria). Then in 1870 there's the whole Santo Domingo debacle, and Sumner decides that Grant isn't doing enough to advance civil rights so he leaves Grant's corner which, okay, fair enough. But then he fucking allies himself with the people who want to end Reconstruction and it's like ??????????????????? How do you think you're going to make sure freedmen are being guaranteed things like the right to vote and that the Freedmen's Bureau (which he championed) is still going to exist when you're just saying "Nah, it's cool bro, we don't need to keep an eye on you anymore, there's totally no way a bunch of former slave owners who tried to secede to keep their slaves would ever disregard my civil rights platform and not need soldiers to enforce it." Plus he broke with the Radicals a little bit earlier when he opposed punitive measures against former Confederate leaders (even just simply throwing them in jail, nevermind executions) and again, how the hell did he think that was going to ever work out for advancing black civil rights?

I still get angry about him shutting down the whole Santo Domingo thing, too. I almost said "irrationally" but no fuck that, it's perfectly rational.

[–]craneomotor 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Interestingly, Sherman, in private correspondence, argued for exactly these kinds of measures early in the war. By the end of war, he had commuted his views considerably. I think there's actually a strong argument to be made that the Sherman that Georgia and the Carolinas got was a sympathetic, "benevolent" Sherman, a view shared by both Union radicals and Confederate leaders immediately following the war.

[–]spidermonk 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's a Sherman quote in the 'War Nerd' article I linked elsewhere that definitely sounds a lot more punitive than the guy at Bennett Place.

Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late. All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence.

[–]Chocolate_Cookie 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

one not surpassed until the genocidal regimes of the 20th century

OH! These fuckers.

  • Population of Atlanta in 1860 - ~10,000 / Georgia - ~1.1 million
  • Population of Atlanta in 1870 - ~22,000 / Georgia - ~1.2 million

  • Population of Jews in Europe in 1933 - ~9.5 million

  • Population of Jews in Europe in 1950 - ~3.5 million

Sherman was a terrible genocidal maniac. Just really bad at it.

Related, I gave a talk to a CWRT years ago on a subject almost completely unrelated to Sherman, but the population of Atlanta as a point of comparison was relevant, so I mentioned it. This completely derailed the Q&A session afterward. Many Georgians seem to be under the impression Sherman burned a city of about a billion people.

[–]LIPCSB__ 43ポイント44ポイント  (20子コメント)

Heh. I was actually in Atlanta over the Fourth of July weekend and took the opportunity to stroll through downtown (I'm a New Yorker spending a summer in Alabama--being in a city with a proper downtown made me feel less homesick). The sheer number of historical plaques set up reminding people of the burning of Atlanta was a bit of a culture shock--I'd never seen such a "woe is us" mentality in the US. It got almost comically melodramatic--the plaques in front of the state capitol described Sherman's army with the word "monstrous" and compared the Confederate defenders to the Spartans at Thermopylae. It almost reminded me of some Eastern Bloc portrayals of the Great Patriotic War, or Polish portrayals of the Warsaw Uprising, only with less context (though to their credit, I didn't see any plaques about States' Rights or Tariffs).

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 38ポイント39ポイント  (16子コメント)

You can't overrate the impact of the war on the southern psyche. We've had an inferiority complex since 1865 that other parts of the country just can't comprehend. The only way I can describe it is to compare it to the feelings of emasculation and humiliation many Americans experienced in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, or Germans experienced after WWI.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 33ポイント34ポイント  (12子コメント)

No, Germany got over it in two generations. Virginia is still stuck in this victimization, 150 years later.

I'm going to have so. much. fun once the step kid learns about the Civil War in high school.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 21ポイント22ポイント  (6子コメント)

To be fair, Virginia has a glorious tradition of living in the past. I'm a North Carolinian, and went up to visit one of the old-money Virginia schools with my brother who was thinking of applying. It's like the world stopped in 1859. I felt like I had shit on my shoes.

[–]ormindcanhideIf only Constantine XI had listened to his generals 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

So either W&L or UVA?

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hampden-Sydney. He did not choose to attend.

[–]ormindcanhideIf only Constantine XI had listened to his generals 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oof. Yeah probably a good call. I've never known a school where most of the student body so blatantly and joyfully bought into the old-boy thing. And I say that as someone who went to UVA.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, we were weirded out by the student body and one overly enthusiastic admissions manager, along with some rumors of Nazi activity on the campus. We came away with the feeling that they were living in a dead age, glorying in past accomplishments while blissfully unaware of reality. He's away to a state school (like me!) now.

[–]saturninus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suppose at least Hampden-Sydney gave the world Stephen Colbert (who promptly transferred to Northwestern after his sophomore year).

[–]farquierFeminazi christians burned Assurbanipal's Library 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tell me more...

[–]Cephalophobe 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think that may depend upon what part of Virginia you're from. I'm from Northern Virginia, and no one particularly considered themselves southern, nor was our Civil War curriculum notably bad.

[–]GobtheCyberPunk 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm also from NoVA, which I proudly argue is not part of the South at all.

[–]Zwiseguy15Native Americans didn't discover shit 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm from Maryland, and I think it's hilarious how some of my friends from Pennsylvania and wherever are convinced that Maryland is part of the South. I mean, even southerners don't count Maryland.

[–]hrlngrv 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Way down the Shenandoah Valley historical memories may be longer.

[–]buckyVanBuren 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's because we want the family silver back.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pfft, speak for yourself; my white trash ancestors never had any silver. We ate with crudely carved sticks.

[–]mudsill 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm from Alabama, had a grandpa who grew up in Weimar Germany. I don't recall him boohooing about the mean old English or French even once. If he could get over a period of national humiliation and instability that he actually, personally lived through, then I'm sure Cody from Marietta can get over some shit that happened to a great-great-great-grandfather he never met.

Part of the reason I can't stand sappy Confederate memorials is because they usually leave out any mention of what black Southerners went through. The other reason I hate it is because it makes Southerners as a whole look like a bunch of pathetic crybabies.

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fun fact: Atlanta and Richmond were both burned by the Confederates, and in both cases it may have been an accident. Maybe.

The history museum in Atlanta will actually tell you that about Atlanta, as well.

[–]NonHomogenized 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

And the burning of Columbia - which may also have been a result of fires started by Confederates - was as severe as it was because the fires (were either started in or) caught cotton bales which had been stacked in the streets by Confederates, in preparation for burning, before their evacuation of the city.

[–]CatherineCalledBrdy 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

I might just be stoned, but I drink up the tears of the Lost Causers.

I DRINK THEM UP!

[–]turtleeatingaldermanAcademo-Fascist 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

DiLorenzo, you booooyyyy... IIIII AM THE THIRD REVELATION!

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORMHitler accidentally all of Poland. 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

And then you wash it down with a drink someone here invented, an Atlanta Sunrise:

  1. Serve grain alcohol in a shot glass

  2. Light it on fire

  3. Sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic

[–]SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you'll find that ancient Hindus invented snapshots.

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - 1, 2, 3

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[–]shahryarrakeenPeanut butter was spread by the sword 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

An industrial army would have to include suicide commandos, frontline assemblies, sappers tasked to demolish new buildings and radio operators named Vogt.

[–]HyrethgarSpuds Ain't Fruit 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

Just a question, is forage the word to use? Or pillage? Few deaths but it was very much stealing private property.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 29ポイント30ポイント  (5子コメント)

To forage in the military sense means to take supplies by force or by the threat of force.

[–]HyrethgarSpuds Ain't Fruit 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oh. Thank you.

[–]Durzo_BlintSauron did nothing wrong. 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Prior to the invention of rapid transportation methods like railroad feeding an army was difficult, especially if you were far from home. Oftentimes soldiers were sent out to "commandeer" food from local farmers. If the farmer was lucky they got some form of compensation for having their harvest stolen.

[–]smileyman 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Forage, as the targets were food stuffs. Pillaging implies a much more thorough destruction of private property than does foraging.

[–]Cairneann 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Looking through the comments and Garry Brecher's atricle I had an epiphany that, holy shit, General Sherman is Commander Vimes. Anyone else feel that?

[–]IDDQD-IDKFA 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bleedin' million to one chance. How could it miss?

[–]hrlngrv 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Both armies lived off the land, meaning preyed on civilians, during deep incursions into enemy territory. Consider Bragg's move into Kentucky in summer 1862, or Lee's campaign into Pennsylvania in summer 1863. Arguably those were out of necessity.

Grant and Sherman had engaged in considerable destruction of supporting industries in Mississippi in early 1863 during the Vicksburg campaign, including destroying much of Jackson, MS. The March through Georgia and into South Carolina was more destruction of property and undermining Southern morale. It wasn't an ethnic cleansing.

OTOH, as a descendant of Virginians from the Shenandoah Valley, Sheridan's campaign there was considerably nastier than Sherman's campaign. We still have a cavalry pistol [as the family story goes] my great, great grandmother got off a Union trooper who had, er, unclean intentions towards one of my great, great aunts.

[–]TaylorS1986The Holodomordor has been greatly exaggerated. 28ポイント29ポイント  (8子コメント)

I like to fuck with these people by saying Sherman wasn't harsh enough.

[–]proindrakenzolThe Tleilaxu did nothing wrong. 32ポイント33ポイント  (7子コメント)

The only thing Sherman did wrong was not doing enough.

[–]hrlngrv 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's a passage in Shelby Foote's volume 3 which mentions Georgians telling Sherman's soldiers to do even worse to South Carolina. Always brings a chuckle.

[–]smileyman 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Foote's history of the Civil War has it's problems, but I still love it. It's incredibly well written and it gets the basic historical details of the war right, as far as when and where things happened.

He doesn't spend much time talking politics or economics, and that's a failing. He also can't help but let a little of his Southern roots show through.

OTOH, any Lost Causism in the set is relatively minor and mostly consists of sins of omission, rather than commission.

He also has one of my favorite passages of all time in it. Foote describes the Battle of the Wilderness (essentially a draw), and then talks about how previous commanders either halted or retreated after such a major clash of arms.

Meade issued the march order at 3 o’clock, in compliance with earlier instructions from Grant, and when the guns pulled out soon afterward, taking a five-hour lead to clear the roads for the infantry that night, the troops along the line of battle drew their conclusions and went on exchanging occasional long-range shots with the graybacks while awaiting their turn to join what they were convinced was a retreat. Soon after dark the expected orders came; Warren’s and Sedgwick’s veterans slung their packs, fell in quietly on the Brock Road and the turnpike, and set out. To the surprise of the V Corps men, the march was south, in rear of Hancock’s portion of the line. At first they thought that this was done to get them onto the plank road, leading east to Chancellorsville, but when they slogged past the intersection they knew that what they were headed for was not the Rapidan or the Rappahannock, but another battle somewhere south, beyond the unsuspecting rebel flank. Formerly glum, the column now began to buzz with talk. Packs were lighter; the step quickened; spirits rose with the growing realization that they were stealing another march on old man Lee. Then came cheers, as a group on horseback — “Give way, give way to the right,” one of the riders kept calling to the soldiers on the road — doubled the column at a fast walk, equipment jingling. In the lead was Grant, a vague, stoop-shouldered figure, undersized-looking on Cincinnati, the largest of his mounts; the other horsemen were his staff. Cincinnati pranced and sidled, tossing his head at the sudden cheering, and the general, who had his hands full getting the big animal quieted down, told his companions to pass the word for the cheers to stop, lest they give the movement away to the Confederates sleeping behind their breastworks in the woods half a mile to the west. The cheering stopped, but not the buzz of excitement, the elation men felt at seeing their commander take the lead in an advance they had supposed was a retreat. They stepped out smartly; Todd’s Tavern was just ahead, a little beyond the midway point on the march to Spotsylvania.

Up on the turnpike, where Sedgwick’s troops were marching, the glad reaction was delayed until the head of the column had covered the gloomy half dozen miles to Chancellorsville. “The men seemed aged,” a cannoneer noted as he watched them slog past a roadside artillery park. Weary from two days of savage fighting and two nights of practically no sleep, dejected by the notion that they were adding still another to the long list of retreats the army had made in the past three years, they plodded heavy-footed and heavy-hearted, scuffing their shoes in the dust on the pike leading eastward. Beyond Chancellorsville, just ahead, the road forked. A turn to the left, which they expected, meant recrossing the river at Ely’s Ford, probably to undergo another reorganization under another new commander who would lead them, in the fullness of time, into another battle that would end in another retreat; that was the all-too-familiar pattern, so endless in repetition that at times it seemed a full account of the army’s activities in the Old Dominion could be spanned in four short words, “Bull Run: da capo.” But now a murmur, swelling rapidly to a chatter, began to move back down the column from its head, and presently each man could see for himself that the turn, beyond the ruins of the Chancellor mansion, had been to the right. They were headed south, not north; they were advancing, not retreating; Grant was giving them another go at Lee. And though on sober second thought a man might be of at least two minds about this, as a welcome or a dread thing to be facing, the immediate reaction was elation. There were cheers and even a few tossed caps, and long afterwards men were to say that, for them, this had been the high point of the war.

“Our spirits rose,” one among them would recall. “We marched free. The men begin to sing.… That night we were happy.”

And since we're talking Foote and favorite passages I'm sure /u/Georgy_K_Zhukov will be along soon to share his favorite Foote quote.

[–]Georgy_K_ZhukovLend Lease? We don't need no stinking 'Lend Lease'! 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It isn't from his book actually, but an interview at the end of the Shiloh audiobook. I found it to be so perfect I had to transcribe it. Make to read it in a soft, southern accent for max effect:

There is a general belief that war books promote a love of war, and that is true about bad war books, but every serious book about a battle or about a war, if it’s serious, is bound to be anti-war. […] Because the truth is, it’s more bloody than it is glorious, and the suffering is a far bigger part of it than the patriotism and the glory, and that will come across with an honest writer. Cheap literature hurts everybody, but decent, honest literature will always carry this anti-war message, it’s bound to be there. No matter how patriotic a man may sound, underlying it, if he has a good eye, everybody is going to see through the phony patriotism and the ephemeral glory, and to the real suffering of it and especially the absurdity of it.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Should have kept going to Key West, he should have! Then turned north and burned everything again! Then burn his way back to DC!

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

He should have burned the ashes!

[–]CuofengArachno-capitalist 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

And then put the ashes in a box and mailed the box to himself. And then when it arrived...HIT IT WITH A HAMMER!

[–]DirishMelon Lord did nothing wrong 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Today I learned that the ancient Greeks were industrial. This very tactic was employed by the Peloponnesian League against Athens to lure them out of their city and force them into open battle.

I guess that steam engine by Hero of Alexandria must have allowed the Greeks to build Steam Hoplites. Another piece of knowledge lost in the Library of Alexandria sigh.

[–]_watchingLincoln only fought the Civil War to free the Irish 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jesus, what the fuck?

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

You don't hear anyone throw this much fuss over the harrying of the north anymore.

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The South lost horribly in defense of the indefensible, felt insecure about that fact, and spent decades rewriting their own history to give themselves the moral high ground. None of that applied to the North.

[–]ciderczarZapruder's vacation slides 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, no, but the North didn't have much to write with once William got done with them.

[–][deleted] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sherman destroyed resources not people. Every town he went to he would make sure that there was an open escape route for civilians before he burned it down. He promised every town that if they simply surrendered his troops wouldn't cause any trouble. Only one town surrendered to him; Savannah, and his troops stayed peacefully in Savannah for several days, spending money at local businesses and making nice with the townspeople. The only time where it could be argued that Sherman committed an atrocity was during the burning of Columbia, and even that isn't clear. It's just as likely that burning cotton stores up-wind from the city was the cause of that mishap. Sherman is an American hero, and I say that as someone who was raised in SC, and taught to hate him all my life.

[–]ey_bb_wan_sum_fuk 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Sherman's March to the Sea baffles me.

Lincoln never recognized the legitimacy of the Confederate States as an independent nation. He always maintained that the residents within the Confederate States' territory were citizens of the United States of America. As citizens of the USA, they presumably enjoyed all the rights and protections that American citizens would.

Yet Sherman's March to the Sea was targeted specifically to destroy industry and infrastructure. The actions of this army deprived American citizens the right to due process. These weren't enemy combatants, or even a hostile populace in the eyes of the law. Regardless of the situation on the ground, Lincoln's policy of non-recognition of the CSA means that Sherman's army intentionally violated the Constitutional rights of American citizens.

This is why Sherman's March to the Sea baffles me. The strategic value I won't debate, but the legal argument to deploy an army against one's own civilian populace? I just can't come to terms with that.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

Basically, this was one of several areas of Union policy that were inherently contradictory. Lincoln treated the Confederacy as states in rebellion officially, but when it became necessary (or at least desirable) he behaved otherwise. The first is in the enforcement of a blockade; second, suspending the write of habeus corpus while Congress was out of session; third, in choosing to allow confiscation or destruction of rebel property (this was the rationale under which the first black runaways were accepted into Union lines, and basically the basis of the Emancipation Proclamation); fourth, in exiling one Clement L. Vallandigham, a US congressman, to the Confederacy (a tacit admission of Confederate independence). The treatment of the Confederacy did become harsher after 1862, as northerners came to see the war as less a forced reunion and more a conquest. The legal justification of these acts was dubious; but civil wars are rarely neat affairs.

[–]hrlngrv 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Arguably necessary actions to counter rebellion.

Or, if you prefer, a police action on a grand scale.

What the Union government did to Clement Vallandigham and other Copperheads was arguably worse than what they did to Southern property.