全 147 件のコメント

[–]greyspectre2100Pawn Stars: Nazi Edition[M] 127ポイント128ポイント  (14子コメント)

Since this is clearly a topic that has caused some controversy in the other thread, I'd like to jump on this early to make a PSA:

1) The report button isn't 'I disagree' on steroids.

2) Keep it civil. We encourage debate, not poo-flinging.

That's all. Game on.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 50ポイント51ポイント  (5子コメント)

if we can't fling poo, what do I have all these xistera and bags of dung for?

[–]greyspectre2100Pawn Stars: Nazi Edition 32ポイント33ポイント  (3子コメント)

What you do on the weekends is your business.

I mean, I hope it's organic farming, but the internet leads me to believe there are less wholesome options available. ಠ_ಠ

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

uhh, no I'm fairly certain the FASCIST EVIL MODS are intterupting my FREEDOM buisiness plan to FREELY sell these Xistera and dung for throwing. COMMIE BASTIDS!

[–]BushyOmnivore 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought we went over this, poo is for flinging at those heathen Welshmen

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose[M] 35ポイント36ポイント  (5子コメント)

The report button isn't 'I disagree' on steroids.

please guys ;_;

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can't tell me what to do, I'll maybe report everything!

[–]rottenborough5 more beakers to Writing 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Report everything? That's dumb. Reported.

[–]ProbablyIsntLyingEducation? More like indoctrination! 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

i report u

[–]TurnshroudThe Cyrus Cylinder? More like Cyrus' fleshlight. 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

BANNED

[–]MDFificationMisanthropologist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

As Emperor Dom Pedro once said, "huehuehue gib monies or i repot u"

[–]jon_hendry 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The report button isn't 'I disagree' on steroids.

However, abuse will cause your gonads to shrink.

[–]greyspectre2100Pawn Stars: Nazi Edition 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It will when I break my foot off in someone's ass, I tell you hwat.

[–]SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956 40ポイント41ポイント  (1子コメント)

The first rule of /r/badhistory is to check your sources! The second rule of /r/badhistory is to check your sources!

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[–]Illogical_BloxChe Guavara was Socialist Jesus 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hah, relevant comment.

[–]HappyRectangleYour favorite historical figure sucks 71ポイント72ポイント  (10子コメント)

Cocoliztli alone defied Grey’s position of a disease free New World, and the journey of syphilis likewise supports a more nuanced view of disease exchange.

I think he made the distinction that it wasn't a disease-free New World, but a plague-free New World, implying that nothing in the New World had the virulence or contagiousness as a disease like Cholera or Typhus.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

What do you perceive as the difference between cocoliztli and "plagues" as Grey defined them? Many of the diseases Grey counts as "plagues," like typhus and the Black Death, are spread in similar ways as cocoliztli is thought to have done (ie, using various pests as vectors rather than directly person-to-person). Though there has been some suggestion that cocoliztli was a particularly supercharged hemorrhagic fever that was able to pass person-to-person, so that would push it even closer to Grey's description of an idealized Plague. It spread quickly, killing millions of people (perhaps as much as 80% of the population in the area) in the three-year span during the 1540s outbreak. And it killed quickly, even faster that the 7-30 day window in Grey's description of a plague. If cocoliztli is going to kill you, it does so in 3-4 days.

There's also matlazahuatl, to consider, but it may just be a synonym for cocoliztli, just as the Black Death and the Bubonic plague are the same thing. They were certainly used as synonyms late in the colonial era, but early on may have been referring to separate diseases. It's a bit confusing.

Setting aside the issue of whether unfamiliar historic plagues existed in the Americas, tuberculosis which is explicitly on Grey's list of plagues, had been in the Americas since the 1st Century, after hitching a ride across the Atlantic via seals / sea lions.

[–]TheSerialLyer 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

CGPGrey's video was made to address the reasons why a plague originating in the Americas did not cause an outbreak in Europe. The fact that there was a disease that could be called a plague in the Americas is nigh irrelevant, as he gives reasons for why a plague in the Americas would not transfer to the Old World, namely the distinct regionalism that existed in the Old World that wouldn't permit a single disease to travel across the entirety of America.

Since a plague never reached a significant amount of people in the Americas, it never left enough people to transmit the plague to their European pals. I am by absolutely no means an expert in this field and I fully expect to be put in my place, but I feel CGP Grey's video sufficiently achieves its purpose as I outlined above.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 38ポイント39ポイント  (7子コメント)

The choice of cholera and typhus as plagues to prove his point is interesting. Cholera only arrived in Europe in the 1800s, rather late by Columbian exchange standards, and is spread via contaminated water sources. Typhus is spread by a vector, usually lice, not direct human contact. Smallpox, influenza, and measles are much better examples of Old World plague diseases spread by direct human to human contact. Not sure why he included cholera and typhus on that list.

[–]XxdisfigurexX 59ポイント60ポイント  (6子コメント)

You didn't address the concern raised in that comment. Of course there was disease, but do we know of serious plagues which didn't burn out too quickly? I'm no academic, but your argument seems to be based on the fact that there was disease, yet Grey makes a distinction quite clearly at the beginning of his video.

[–]butt_squeak 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

THIS!

i dont have the ability to watch the video right now, but im sure that at NO point in the whole video did he say that the Americas were disease-free. That statement alone should raise red flags to everybody. Who believes that the Americas were a sterile environment ???

[–]thenewiBall 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

What is a plague? The video as I recall gave a very weak definition and this new world disease seems to fit

[–]SuddenXxdeathxx 27ポイント28ポイント  (3子コメント)

Plague refers to either the specific disease; or any disease that is highly infectious, and usually fatal.

In the video he states that plagues spread quickly, and either kill you quickly, or you become immune. Also that they come from animals.

Cocoliztli seems to fit this description, but the epidemics listed are after the Spanish conquest of the region had begun.

Although the dates wouldn't matter if the disease actually did originate in the Americas, but I don't know enough about it to comment on that. Just being skeptical.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Cocoliztli seems to fit this description, but the epidemics listed are after the Spanish conquest of the region had begun.

While we can't be certain yet, cocoliztli outbreaks have been hypothesized to have occurred during the Terminal Classical period (750 - 950 CE) (Acuna-Soto et al 2005).

[–]SuddenXxdeathxx 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh, interesting. I should keep an eye on that. Thanks.

[–]zouhair 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Europe compared to the Americas is pretty tiny though, so it would be hard to have a plague all over the Americas as it can happen in the Europe.

[–]KingToastyMy racism is better than your racism 95ポイント96ポイント  (43子コメント)

I realllyyy hope Grey responds to these criticisms beyond hinting that historians are just jealous of how popular Diamond is. I love that guy's work, but admitting mistakes is the only way to learn.

[–]George_Meany 68ポイント69ポイント  (28子コメント)

Yes, I think his response will show to what extent he actually respects the discipline. If he maintains his defence of "just so" answers and pop history bullshit, then his entire project wasn't actually about history - but about self-aggrandizement and mass appeal.

[–]theamazingchris 67ポイント68ポイント  (26子コメント)

Dude has thrown shade on the entire discipline of psychology in the past. Something tells me non-STEM sciences are generally not held in high regard by him.

[–]flyingaphorisms 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

Really? Do you remember where/when he said that?

[–]theamazingchris 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

It would be on his podcast, unfortunately I can't remember the episode. I could find out but it would be several hours worth of listening to track down so I'm not eager to do so.

[–]freedmenspatrol 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember the history comment too. I think he went so far as to say that people should literally be ignorant of history because it would, somehow, be better for the world. He backed this up with reference to experiences with Welsh people who hate the English. Notably, while he insisted he had spoken to such people himself he seemed entirely disinterested in why such hatred might exist beyond "Oh, some history thing." Cringed when I saw the title of the latest video because I expected something like this.

The podcast has show notes and it looks like I got lucky with Google:

Grey abolishes all of human history

Don't have the two hours right now to listen again, but if anybody wants I'm almost positive that's the one. They discuss history extremely rarely, unless it's trivia about the history of technology or in reference to some of Brady's work with the Royal Society.

[–]delta_baryon 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

If I recall correctly, he said he didn't like psychology because it's pretty difficult to pin down why an individual acts a particular way. He preferred sociology, because groups are easier to predict.

I haven't studied either, so I wouldn't know how accurate a statement this is.

[–]math792dThe Emperor would have won if only Creed were in charge 29ポイント30ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm a student of psychology, and there's just as much contradictory information about sociology and group psychology as there is for individual action. Psychology also doesn't just deal with behavior (well, behaviorists do), but also with cognitive development, how our biology affects our ability to think, how group pressure affects decision-making, etc.

Saying psychology is just about pinning down why an individual acts like a particular way is a really reductive view of the discipline. It's like saying all of history can be summed up as the history of great men, or all economics can be summed up as the inevitable triumph of capitalist economies.

[–]mixmastermindPeasants are a natural enemy of the proletariat 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

If it doesn't use 15 graphs and tables in an article, can it even really be said to be academia?

[–]jufnitzthe Invisible Hand did nothing wrong 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

graphs and tables

Chicken chicken, chicken? (Chicken chickens.)

[–]mixmastermindPeasants are a natural enemy of the proletariat 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just have to say a bunch of science students laughed uproariously at graphs on a PowerPoint. How wonderful.

[–]George_Meany 30ポイント31ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, then why does he try to contribute to History? Or is it only interesting when it can be used to frame his pre-existing opinions? I find that type of thing incredibly frustrating - particularly when it's so popularized.

[–]theamazingchris 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well usually he doesn't go far away from explaining what happened, rather than why. This is a bit of a deviation for him, insofar as he is actually doing historical analysis, no doubt because he's a fan of Diamond's.

[–]pumpkincatChurchill was a Nazi 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I find this to be the case with a lot of pop-science types. Fucking Galileo man.

[–]MDFificationMisanthropologist 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because reductionists are gonna reductionist, sir. People love to think that they've found a simple, repeatable principle that explains all of human society throughout history. The fact of the matter, that human society is a messy, unfathomably complicated system that's prone to influence by an extremely disparate group of processes that aren't consistently present in any locale or time period, isn't something people tend to accept until they're already deep in the field.

It's like how people blame the economic policy advocated by their head of state for the state of their nation's entire economy. Factors that I don't personally know or care about aren't real.

[–]cdstephens 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

non-STEM sciences? I think all sciences count as STEM (at least by the US government) no?

[–]GobtheCyberPunk 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Either way, those obsessed with STEM don't consider social sciences STEM.

[–]thenewiBall 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't think social sciences count but honestly I'm not sure who does the counting

[–]theamazingchris 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's also not a really fair criticism because he has spoken highly of sociology and economics as well. But meh.

[–]GobtheCyberPunk 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

And yet he made that anti-automation video? I dunno if he's that supportive of economics.

[–]lietuvis10LTU 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

The video wasn't anti-automation, he even said himself.

[–]GobtheCyberPunk 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Even if not economists in general don't agree with any of his claims about people being replaced by robots.

[–]Crystal_Clods 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having followed Grey for a pretty long time, now, I feel confident saying that he doesn't give one fraction of a damn about the discipline. He doesn't make these videos because he has a passion for teaching or a passion for the subject matter. He just likes working from home, being his own boss, and doing a job where he doesn't have to interact with many people face-to-face.

Which is fine, by itself. Those are all reasonable things to consider when you're thinking about your career. But if you're not going to respect the standards of the field you're working in -- if you're just going to spread misinformation to people who don't know better -- then you're really just doing more harm than good.

Even when he talks about his days as an actual teacher working in a school, it's plain to see his main priority was not the quality of his students' education. There's no pretense of that. His main priorities were just getting through the curriculum, getting through the day, and going home with as little trouble as possible.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I sent a PM to Grey about opening up a dialogue with relevant people from /r/AskHistorians about this, but so far no reply.

[–]kerouacrimbaud 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You won't get a reply, unfortunately.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. Still haven't.

[–]redditfalcons 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Does Diamond have a bad reputation as a historian?

[–]KingToastyMy racism is better than your racism 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

Absolutely, largely because he literally isn't a historian but still writes extensively on it.

[–]MDFificationMisanthropologist 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

Inaccurate. He is in fact a historian. An environmental historian, but still a practicing historian.

Most of the deficiencies in his work can be ascribed to being overly geographically/ecologically deterministic in nature (every interaction between people is ultimately caused, according to him, in some way, by their enviromental circumstances, with ideologies and other cognitive aspects of society never getting any credit) and falling into the old reductionist trap of trying to minimize the amount of factors in a society's history rather than trying to incorporate as many factors as can be found to get a more complete picture.

tl;dr He is a historian, just a reductionist. His biggest flaw however is that he has a clear agenda and bias in his work - for example, Collapse and The World Until Yesterday are more arguments against aspects of present western society than they are attempts to conclusively explain the past.

[–]czulu 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

If people just stopped cutting down trees, the world would be a better place.

[–]redditfalcons 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Good thing I haven't wasted my time on GGS then. It was on my goodreads To-Read list. It's frustrating that it gets such positive reviews if it's not historically accurate. How else is a non-historian to judge before reading something if it going to be worthwhile?

I'm afraid to ask about the book I'm reading now.... Does Laura Hillenbrand have any kind of reputation?

[–]Aelar 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It may yet be worth reading, just keep in mind that every single one of his examples has probably driven a historian somewhere mad.

[–]KingToastyMy racism is better than your racism 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not sure! It's a good question for the Monday general discussion thread tomorrow.

[–]tim_mcdanielThomas Becket needed killin' 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Search this froup and /r/AskHistorians for reviews of Diamond. He has a bad reputation.

[–]redditfalcons 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

froup? :-P

[–]tim_mcdanielThomas Becket needed killin' 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Froup. I emphatically insist: froup.

[–]BobtheDino96portugal is the only true empire 45ポイント46ポイント  (3子コメント)

I love CPGgrey. He gave us so much new content. It's great.

[–]Shipsexual 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is your flair a reference to anything?

[–]BobtheDino96portugal is the only true empire 26ポイント27ポイント  (1子コメント)

I forgot the user but it was someone pointing out how absurd some people's definition is of an empire back on a denial of African empires post. And someone made that humorous comment that Portugal had a world spanning empire for many hundreds of years longer than traditional empires like Britain.

[–]ThePrussianGrippeGeorge Washington killed his Sensei but never said why. 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I took it as an EU4 reference but that makes sense too.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollJupiter was a planet. 21ポイント22ポイント  (8子コメント)

The last paragraph makes me wonder. Has there been a lot of research into diseases imported from west/central Africa to the Americas via slavery? Or would pathogens from there already have been present in Europe?

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (6子コメント)

I really need to look at my notes, I'm watching football at the moment, but yellow fever is typically the example of an African disease import to the Americas.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollJupiter was a planet. 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Anchor down.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ha, thanks! Too bad we sucked last night.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollJupiter was a planet. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Y'all weren't the only ones. Srsly tho. Your NA disease posts are good stuff.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

what about WNV? or African Swine Fever?

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, both West Nile and African Swine Fever seem to be very recent imports, only arriving in the Americas in the past century. Spartacus asked about disease exchange from the African slave trade so we would look to earlier arrivals. Yellow fever is the most likely candidate. Malaria is another possibility, but it's range encompasses the Mediterranean, so it could have been brought over by Europeans.

[–]Spartacus_the_trollJupiter was a planet. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hadn't even considered malaria or yellow fever. The 16th century Caribbean and central America don't sound fun at all. Native populations decline due to war, disease, famine and exploitation. People are enslaved to provide more labor. They inadvertently bring more diseases, plus the fact that they are, you know, enslaved. Yay colonialism .____.

[–]Reptilian_OverlordsHitler Was Good Because He Destroyed the Death Star 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

They would be present similar to how Darwin's finches have cousins in the European states.

The problem with life is that life is diverse: Indigenous populations didn't suddenly "get" influenza, what happens is that indigenous populations got a different strain of influenza (because Influenza is fucking everywhere).

Nevermind the second notion that Natives growing up without being exposed to disease pretty much makes their immune systems worthless.

Bad at history and bad at Biology, what a combo!

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose 54ポイント55ポイント  (10子コメント)

Oh god, back to back posts.

( ノ ゚ー゚)ノ All Hail Anthropology_Nerd ヽ(゚ー゚ヽ)

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 26ポイント27ポイント  (9子コメント)

Between work and studying I finally had time to throw something together last night and this morning. I should have been studying for the boards, but oh well.

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose 15ポイント16ポイント  (8子コメント)

I just realized that I automatically assume everyone here is in the midst of 4 term papers, finals, and internship finalizations like me.

Good luck with the boards!

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

Thanks! Good luck with the papers! I hope you get an awesome internship!

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

I hope you get an awesome internship!

I forgot that I never followed up with my fellow mauds, but I already did! We are still working out housing in DC though.

I don't want to say the congressman in case it leads to dox, but I got someone in the House Progressive Caucus with really great Committee assignments.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Awesome! Congratulations!

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I forgot that I never followed up with my fellow mauds, but I already did! We are still working out housing in DC though.

I know the area pretty well. If you need a hand, just ask.

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Thanks!

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sure thing. Easy hints - Avoid the Capital Hill Area, its either too expensive or semi dangerous.

Virginia is more expensive but also better in many ways than Maryland (commuting exempted).

Metro in Virginia now runs all the way to Reston, so a place out there and not having to drive to the District is possible.

Don't drive to the District.

=)

[–]WearyTunesSweet Vermouth & Maude Aboose 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sure thing. Easy hints - Avoid the Capital Hill Area, its either too expensive or semi dangerous.

:/ I think the company we are working with is putting us there.

[–]Townsend_HarrisDred Scott was literally the Battle of Stalingrad. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

:welp:

[–]smashdragon 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

As someone who's not a Historian, I'm still trying to make sense of Diamond and CGPG's arguments, and the retorts to those arguments. From what (little) I've seen so far, lots has been said about Diamond's poor research methodologies, but I'm having a hard time picking out what specifically is incorrect and what isn't. For reference I've not read the book (nor do I intend to, now that I've seen the vitriolic response to it), but I have watched the video and read some of the responses in this sub and /r/askhistorians and it seems:

  • Diamond (and CGPG) expand on the assertion which I was taught in school that diseases, which Native American populations had not had the opportunity to develop an immunity to, were primarily responsible for the devastation of Native American populations.

  • You (and seemingly the majority of the modern historical community) dispute that diseases were primarily responsible for Native American population decline and instead assert that it was a combination of diseases, pre-existing warfare between tribes, and to a lesser extent internal unrest caused by the arrival of Europeans in the New World, and encroachment from American settlers

  • I've not seen anything to suggest that the mechanisms of germ transfer or spread of disease and immunity as it relates to the Old World is misrepresented in the video. The video makes the claim that the old world's dense cities provided ideal conditions for the spread of germs which may have contributed to the devastating plagues that were experienced in Europe's history. Maybe this is because I haven't researched deeply enough.

  • I've not found hardly anything about the claim that there were fewer domesticable animals in the New World. The video makes the claim that there were many animals ripe for domestication in the Old World, but scarce few in the New World. In the original comment thread, I saw someone saying that perhaps the buffalo could have been domesticated given more time. This claim seems like something that would be easy and ripe to debunk and discuss, but I've not found anyone discussing it (again, perhaps it's just because I've not looked hard enough).

I came across something you said earlier:

several of my fellow Americas scholars lamented in IRC that we always seem to field the same questions. There is a wealth of academic knowledge accumulating about Native American history, but very little is making its way into the public consciousness where myths continue to dominate discussion.

And I would suggest that - to a layman like me at least - that's because this whole argument feels like a debate over semantics. What I've seen is detailed and thorough responses to "great man" theories and viewpoints, discussion about context and framing of narratives and the toxic way the narrative has been presented in the past as well as implications that the euro-centric view the events is pretty racist and ethnophobic. All of which is very important, but not at all easily digestible to someone with very little prior knowledge and experience with historical analysis. What I haven't seen is something like a response:

Well actually, the situations in the Americas at the time of European exploration were a lot more complicated than what was portrayed here. In fact, there's good evidence to suggest Old World diseases were not the cause of the population decline in the Americas, or even the most important factor! What's more, there's evidence that some pretty nasty diseases like syphilis were actually brought back to the Old World from the New. etc. etc. etc.

Which would certainly help someone like me, whose first exposure to the whole debate is the CGPGrey video. I'd like to get a better feel the way things truly are, but it seems like to truly understand why the CGPG video isn't correct, I'd have to wade through a stack of books and posts about specific nuances.

I realize I'm not the target audience of this subreddit, but it's been sort of a frustrating experience first learning something new in a fun video, then learning that the video's information is largely disputed, but not being able to clearly understand why, or even what points are disputed after further research.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

Thanks for your patience! Sorry it took me a while to respond, but I wanted to do this question justice. Here we go…

From what (little) I’ve seen so far, lots has been said about Diamond’s poor research methodologies, but I’m having a hard time picking out what specifically is incorrect and what isn’t.

Completely understandable! GG&S covers a lot of ground, so our debunkings tend to likewise go all over the place trying to address the issues! It is very easy to get lost in a sea of words, so I will be very brief and to the point here. Feel free to ask clarifying questions if needed.

To start out, let’s use the analogy of a house built on pillars. The overall house is GG&S, while the pillars are each individual subtheory Diamond uses to support the book. I will limit this discussion to the pillars used in the Grey video, but you get the idea. If all the pillars fall, the house falls. Now, let’s start knocking down pillars!

  • Domestic Origins of Infectious Diseases: Diamond posits that people in the Old World domesticated more species, and therefore had more opportunity for animal diseases to jump to humans through those domesticates. See this post for a full run-down on the best genetic evidence for the history of the pathogens mentioned in the video. Basically, (1) in the modern context most of the emerging diseases jumping to humans come from wildlife (not domesticates), and (2) the genetic evidence of the pathogens mentioned in the video suggests they were part of the human disease load before domestication and sedentary villages began. So this pillar is down. The diseases mentioned in the video didn’t come from domestication, they were part of our shared human disease load.

  • Dirty, Dirty Cities and Long Distance Trade: This is the one pillar that might stand. To maintain crowd diseases you need a constant supply of new hosts, otherwise the pathogen dies out. The presence of multiple cities, and the ability of a pathogen to hitch a ride with the host to a new city, does mean that pathogens could circulate in humans longer in the Old World. The New World had cities, and long distance trade, but maybe not at a constant enough level to keep pathogens circulating. This is something we don’t know, but hope to learn more as we make strides in New World archaeology. In the absence of proof, I give this pillar to Diamond.

  • New World Immunological Naiveté: Per the video and the book the New World was relatively disease-free given the relative lack of domesticated animals. As said before, the domesticated animals don’t seem to have much to do with this. The New World did have its own pathogens, skeletal and mummified remains testify to the presence of illnesses, so New World immune systems were “getting a work out” so to speak. Now, like any human lacking exposure to a new pathogen, they needed to develop adaptive immunity or die once the Old World diseases arrived. However, as commonly presented, the arguments of GG&S make it seem like New World immune systems were somehow weaker. They weren’t. They just needed to adapt to new pathogens, just like European populations who hadn’t been exposed to smallpox for a generation. Pillar down.

  • Diseases Swept Ahead of Europeans: Per the video and GG&S, introduced pathogens swept ahead of Europeans, devastating the landscape and leaving a post-apocalyptical world. The preferred pathogen of destruction is usually smallpox, and the thinking holds that the disease spread in the early years of contact (~1521-ish) with devastating results. I can think of very few instances where this happened. Maybe smallpox helped destabilize the Inca a little in the midst of a civil war, but it wasn’t a universal post-apocalyptical scene. The Inca were still very much there, they were just dealing with a changing political landscape and Pizarro was lucky enough to exploit the situation. The archaeological, ethnographic, and historical record speaks to a continuity of site use and there is no evidence of massive die offs throughout the New World in the 16th century. Diseases did occasionally spread in advance of Europeans, but later in time, and based on specific host-environment-pathogen factors, and it wasn’t universal death. Pillar down.

  • >90% Mortality From Epidemic Diseases: This ties into the previous two pillars, but per the book and the video, New World populations died at catastrophic, unprecedented rates from introduced infections. In reality, we now know that it was the combination of warfare, slaving raids, territory displacement, famine, resource restriction, identity erasure, and all the other consequences of colonialism (including disease) that decreased Native American population size and prevented demographic recovery. This pillar is knocked down.

  • No America-Pox: This is more limited to the video, but I mentioned syphilis in the post. Current best evidence suggests this was a New World pathogen transferred to the Old. Pillar down.

So, like the Jenga towers of our youth, only one pillar remains standing. I believe the house falls.

I really appreciate your comments about needing a few buzzword lines to provide to people, accompanied by a series of good links so they can read more, if they so desire. I apologize if I added to your frustration and confusion with my long-winded posts. Thank you for soldiering on and trying to make sense of the mess. Thank you for reaching out for specifics. I hope this post helps to clarify a little. Let me know if it just raised further questions.

Here is my best summary statement for you…

The claims made in Guns, Germs, and Steel and the recent Grey video are not supported by the emerging historical, ethnohistorical, genetic, archaeological, and bioarchaeological data. The demographic history of the New World after contact is far more complex than indicated by the book or the video. Many factors influenced Native American population decline, with introduced Old World pathogens playing a part, but that role has been exaggerated to the exclusion of warfare, slaving raids, displacement, forced resettlement, territory restriction, resource deprivation, identity erasure, and a host of other factors. Please consider reading other sources that give credence to this complexity before, or in addition to, GG&S.

[–]midnightrambler956 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

You seem to be misunderstanding the disease issue (maybe Diamond and/or Grey are too? it's been a long time since I read the book and I haven't seen the video). The immune system isn't some sort of cohesive structure that can be "built up" like New Agey types claim. There's no question that the New World wasn't completely disease-free: tuberculosis is an ancient disease that was carried into the Americas, and it's long been at least strongly suspected that syphillis originated there, among others.

The point is that there was no natural immunity in American populations to the Old World diseases. Smallpox, chicken pox, influenza, measles, etc. had been circulating through Europe and Asia for hundreds to thousands of years prior to contact, such that people there were selected for genetic resistance, usually developing only mild disease (influenza and measles are derived from domestic animals, though I'm not sure this matters). This is not a controversial or debated issue; it's been seen repeatedly, and more recently, with disease-naive populations in places like Polynesia. The native Hawaiian population decreased by ~80% in the hundred or so years following contact, primarily due to disease - measles had a very high mortality rate (something like 30-60% if I'm not mistaken, I don't have numbers offhand), compared to <1% for Europeans, and killed the king and queen during a trip to England. This is no different than Europeans dying off en masse from yellow fever in trying to colonize Africa, and requiring African slaves once yellow fever and malaria reached the Americas.

As an aside, note that neither tuberculosis nor syphillis kills quickly, meaning that there's much less opportunity to select for strong resistance (though it's my understanding that syphillis was much more virulent when it first arrived in Europe, and the bacterium evolved to be less so, probably due to the requirements of how it's spread). Cocoliztli would be more similar to the Eurasian viral diseases, but as an epidemic disease of wild rodents, it's unlikely to be one that people would be exposed to regularly.

Likewise, the focus on the Inca ignores the other people who simply weren't there anymore. There were entire civilizations in the Mississippi and Amazon basins that were present at the very first European contact in the early 1500s, then found to be largely depopulated and collapsed by the time of major exploration 100 years later, with the remaining people reverting to slash and burn agriculture and tribal living.

It would be something of a simplification to say that's due solely to disease, but effectively it is - when a large portion of the population dies off, even "only" 50%, a civilization is unable to maintain the kind of food surpluses that allow for urban life, too many people with specialized skills are lost and can't be replaced quickly enough, rulers can't maintain control, and warfare and societal collapse are the inevitable result.

[–]KegnaughtSmallpox is best pox 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The native Hawaiian population decreased by ~80% in the hundred or so years following contact, primarily due to disease - measles had a very high mortality rate (something like 30-60% if I'm not mistaken, I don't have numbers offhand), compared to <1% for Europeans, and killed the king and queen during a trip to England.

If you happen to have a source to refer me to for that, I would be very interested in reading it! I agree with you, as this sort of phenomenon has been seen time and again in animal populations, both historically and in the laboratory, and genetic differences are well documented to play (largely unappreciated) roles in control of disease between individuals.

I believe it is under-appreciated mostly due to the fact that it isn't always clear which alleles may provide protection to any given pathogen (they may be yet unknown to play a role), and a wide spectrum of morbidity and mortality is often seen in different mouse strains to the same pathogen due to the presence of one or more protective alleles (or none). Not to mention the fact that it's usually not just an all-or-nothing protective status for any given allele. I simply find it highly unlikely that there were not significant differences in the frequencies of multiple protective alleles between Old World and New World peoples.

[–]smashdragon 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you for the excellent explanation. This is exactly what I was looking for! I wrote my comment at 1:30am last night, and I apologize if my tone sounded a little grumpy.

Regarding this line:

The Inca were still very much there, they were just dealing with a changing political landscape and Pizarro was lucky enough to exploit the situation

Could you expand on the Incan situation, and how it created the conditions for the Incan civilization being exploited?

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can read the longer version of the story here, but this is my poor Cliff's Notes version. Some scholars think smallpox spread out of Mexico to South America where it killed the ruling Inca. His death prompted a split in the loyalty of the ruling class between his two sons, Atahualpa and Huascar. The two sides went to war, a civil war that quite literally just finished when Pizarro arrived on the scene. With tensions still simmering, Atahualpa's enemies saw Pizarro as a potential ally and used the conquistador to continue a war against the formidable Inca Empire. Of course Pizarro made it seem like this was all his idea, and in his writings took credit for conquering the Inca.

[–]whossname 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You need to make more posts like this, I was actually able to read it from start to finish.

You are strawmanning Grey's position in a few places, but if you are right about that first pillar, Grey has messed up a bit here.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for you questions and well thought comment. I will be indisposed for most of the day, but will try answer your questions this evening!

[–]Quouarthe Weather History Slayer 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

What happened to cocoliztli, out of curiosity? It doesn't seem to be a disease that's commonly reported in the historic literature or in modern epidemiology.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Like so many things about Native American history, I really don't know why cocoliztli isn't more mainstream.

Sure there is some debate among scholars, specifically a (small) subset who think the cocoliztli epidemics were from an introduced European pathogen like Y. pestis. Most of the sources I've read, however, think the symptoms of cocoliztli, described by Spanish physicians at the time who should have been able to recognize known European pathogens, was sufficiently different from Old World illnesses to call it a homegrown New World disease. The virus appears to behave similarly to our modern Hantavirus/Sin Nombre Virus in the Four Corners region of the U.S. so right now the best educated guess is that it was a viral hemorrhagic disease with a murine host.

[–]hawkian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is it accurate, then (I gather so from your final comment referring to a guess) to say that cocoliztli may not be well-known from an epidemiological standpoint because there simply isn't a consensus on what disease it is or was?

Outside of the small debate you mention regarding the origin of the epidemics, it seems like there's debate as to whether cocoliztli referred to one or more than one disease even at the time of the epidemics first being recorded in the historical record.

[–]thisoneoptimistic 21ポイント22ポイント  (7子コメント)

bummer. I always like his videos, but he is pretty far off on this one.

[–]RoNPlayerJames Truslow Adams was a Communist 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

Everyone makes mistakes. And if you don't know about the critiques on GGS (or as in grey's case put them aside as jealousy) it sounds pretty reasonable.

[–]mirozi 22ポイント23ポイント  (5子コメント)

i'm not sure grey put them aside as jealousy, other commenters in his subreddit did that. grey had quite different view, to quote his view about GGS:

I read many, many articles critiquing Diamond before starting this project and this comment largly sums up my feelings on it. Diamond has a theory of history that is much like general relativity, and historians want to talk about quantum mechanics.

edit: i wonder, why people are downvoting this? can someone explain?

[–]probablyanameNotable Savage 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's a pretty bad analogy. Diamond's 'theory of history' is more like electrogravitics or something similar.

[–]mirozi 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

there was better response to this,

TL;DR: It's not general relativity vs quantum mechanics, it's Harry Poter vs physics.

generally grey's approach was heavily discussed in monday madness thread, where here (and in other /u/anthropology_nerd thread) it's mostly focused on video per se.

[–]probablyanameNotable Savage 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Eh, I feel like my analogy was better--Harry Potter is not pretending to be physics, electorgravitics is. But anyways it's a bit of a stupid analogy all around.

[–]mirozi 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

i mean... it depends. both HP and GGS are based on real world, but both are fiction AFAWK ;)

[–]boruno 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of couse he can only think in terms of STEM. What did I expect.

[–]LEGALIZE-MARINARA 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

The video you're critiquing is called "Americapox: The Missing Plague". You have a large subsection of your post called "Why didn’t Europeans get sick?" that doesn't really address the question you asked yourself.

You point out that Europeans in America did get sick from local diseases, but there's nothing in the video that states that this did not happen. You don't explain why no plagues got brought back to Europe from America, and why there wasn't a consequent decline in European population from diseases brought back by colonialists?

/u/happyrectangle raised a very similar point, and didn't get a response that resolved the issue.

[–]SphereIsGreat 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's explained pretty clearly:

The focus on disease alone divorces infectious organisms from the greater context of colonialism. We must remember not only on the pathogens, but the changes in host biology and the greater ecological setting eventually allowed for those pathogens to spread into the interior of the continent.

[–]LEGALIZE-MARINARA 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

The criticism here is almost entirely of the form
"Grey seems to be implying that..." , or
"Grey should have also mentioned these counterexamples", or
"Grey should have presented a more nuanced perspective"

These criticisms don't seem too pertinent in relation to a video that constitutes a short general overview. For instance, despite the lack of a counterexample, I didn't get the impression that no diseases were brought back to the Old world from the New.

Can you point to a specific claim (or better, multiple claims) in the presentation and say "This is outright wrong because..."? Or even "This statement is most likely wrong because..."? It's not as though Grey's presentation is wishy-washy and doesn't make specific claims.

By the way, I agree that it's silly to talk about GGS as being the history book to rule all history books, and I think it's dubious to not put in some disclaimers about the whole thing being speculative.

[–]ReedstiltGuns, Germs, and the Brotherhood of Steel 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you point to a specific claim (or better, multiple claims) in the presentation and say "This is outright wrong because..."?

At ~0:10, Grey talks about the indigenous population of the Americas dropping by "at least 90%" between 1492 and the Victorian era. This figure is derived mostly from census data from colonial Mexico and reflects deaths by all colonial causes - diseases, warfare, slavery / forced labor, etc. Grey makes a distinction between people killed by conquistadors and those killed by diseases. But just because a disease finished the job, doesn't mean a conquistador isn't to blame. To use a more recent example I'm more familiar with, about a quarter of the Cherokee population died during the Trail of Tears - the vast majority from diseases contracted while in the internment camps awaiting exile, others from starvation or exposure. Sure, very few lost their lives to an American bullet, but all those deaths can be attributed to American imperialism. You don't have to swing a sword or pull a trigger to kill someone.

At ~0:20, Grey lists diseases that conquistadors / Europeans brought to the Americas before the Victorian era. This list includes tuberculosis, which had been in the Americas centuries before Europeans arrived, and typhus, which wouldn't arrive in Europe until during the Victorian era (give or take a few years).

At ~1:00, "There was no Americapox..." Here Grey is describing a hypothetical and singular disease devastating 9/10ths of the European population. There are several problems here, but the one I want to focus on now is the idea that if such a disease existed in the Americas it would necessarily jump to Europe soon after contact. This isn't necessarily true. Cholera is one of Grey's go-to examples of a "plague," but while it was circulating around the Ganges since at least Antiquity, it wouldn't start impacting European cities until the 1800s. Some diseases just travel long distances better than others.

At ~2:00, "*The New World didn't have plagues." Tuberculosis beat the Europeans to the Americas, and there are indigenous plagues (cocoliztli, which anthropology_nerd mentioned, being the most devastating and well known). There's also syphilis, which arrived in Europe shortly after Columbus returned (first written records being from 1494-5) and called the Great Pox. While it doesn't match Grey's usage of the term "plague" but its a far cry from the "normal disease" like colds in terms of its severity.

At ~4:00, Grey says the New World didn't have "big, dense, terribly sanitized, deeply interconnected cities" for plagues to thrive in. He then immediately back pedals on this. There have been dense populations (large towns -> large cities) in the Americas for millennia (though admittedly, Tenochtitlan was famously tidy by European standards). Obviously the conditions that would allow plagues to sustain themselves and spread existed in the Americas when Europeans arrived or we wouldn't be having this conversation about why Eurasian diseases were so devastating in the Americas. So claiming that the Americas didn't have the social environments for plagues in this fashion is erroneous.

At ~5:00, Grey attributes various diseases to domesticated animals. See this post for the problems with this attribution. The short answer is that not only do most zoonotic diseases come from wildlife, not domesticated species, very few of the diseases specifically mentioned by Grey can be reliably traced to domesticated animals.

At ~7:55, Grey talks about western Eurasia having relatively easy animals to domesticate compared to, say, a bison. While he admits that a wild boar poses some difficulty, he glosses over the fact that a wild cow (an auroch) is a formidable animal as well, with the largest specimens rivaling the bison in size. Unfortunately, we don't have aurochs around anymore to get an accurate judge of their temperament. Some ancient sources describe them being fairly docile, others as being so aggressive that it was impressive just to hunt them, let alone trying to pen and raise one. I'm willing to grant that an auroch might have been, to some degree, easier to manage than a bison (after all, aurochs were domesticated on 2-4 separate occasions, while bison haven't). But I don't think the difference is as stark as Grey claims. Additionally, he alludes to the idea that bison can crush all means of keeping them contained, but Native peoples did have methods for doing just that, at least temporarily (see buffalo pounds).

At ~9:00, Grey says that up to the Columbian contact humans had domesticated only a "baker's dozen" of domesticated animals, including honey bees and silkworms, and mentions only llamas in Americas. This ignores alpacas (a related, but distinct, species domesticated independently of llamas), guinea pigs, turkeys, muscovy / mute ducks, parrots, stingless bees, and possibly white-tailed deer (archaeological evidence from Mayapan and ethnographic evidence from southern Ontario suggests that people in these two areas at least either had domesticated deer or were in the process of domesticating them). In addition, there are a host of species often living in close proximity to humans without being domesticated (see this post for an example concerning monkeys in the Amazon). Also, while it's not outright stated, it's implied that dogs are a Eurasian exclusive. The Americas had dogs throughout, some of which were bred for specific purposes such as pulling loads, hunting specific species, producing wool, or being eaten.

Over all, this domestication argument also assume that any animal that can be domesticate will be, and any animal that hasn't been domesticated can't be. Consider that fact that caribou / reindeer exist in Eurasia and North America, but were only domesticated in Eurasia. Or that wild boar exists throughout Eurasia, but wasn't domesticated in Europe until after domesticated pigs from the Middle East arrived and put the training wheels on the domestication of the European kin. This argument also ignores the role that ideology plays in defining a cultures relationship with animals. Not everyone views animals solely as a resource to be utilized. Grey has promised a follow-up video on domestication, which may go into the reasons why people domesticated animals, but I get the feeling will focus more on the Diamond's ideas on what qualities makes certain species better suited for domestication than others.

At ~9:45, Grey starts into "full answer." The lack of New world domesticated animals, he says, limited exposure to new diseases as well as limiting food production. I've already mentioned that the disease exposure aspect of this argument doesn't accurately reflect where most diseases are actually coming from (you don't need to domesticate an animal to catch its diseases), but I also want to tackle this idea that food production was limited in the Americas due to a lack of animal labor. From very early on, Europeans were commenting on how productive American farming actually was. One of my favorite quotes on the topic comes from Thomas Hariot, one of the Roanoke colonists who sent a report back to England describing the land they had settled and their new neighbors:

The planted ground, compared with an English acre of forty rods in length and four in breadth, yields two hundred bushels of corn, beans, and pease, in addition to the crop of [squash], [goosefoot], and sunflowers. In England we think it a large crop if an acre gives forty bushels of wheat.

At ~10:20, Grey claims that domesticated animals are the key to "bootstrapping a complex society from nothing." Here "complex" has a rather Eurocentric connotation. There are numerous societies in the Americas (and not just in the Andes and Mesoamerica) that achieved "complexity" in this sense with little to no animal labor.

Here Grey also mentions that if you were to swap the species of Eurasia with those in the Americas, then the Americas would end up with all these domesticated animals and their diseases. Again, this goes back to the idea that "if can be domesticated, it will; if hasn't, then it can't" and ignores the reasons why people domesticated different species in the first place.

[–]G_Fil_24How can history be real if our eyes aren't real 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

These criticisms don't seem too pertinent in relation to a video that constitutes a short general overview.

Dead wrong. Overviews over a subject, even simplistic ones, should be nuanced and balanced, not one-sided bullcrap like the CGP Grey video was.

C'mon, how can you be arguing this when Grey himself said that GG&S was the history book to rule all history books?

[–]mmilosh 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you point to a specific claim (or better, multiple claims) in the presentation and say "This is outright wrong because..."?

Domesticated animals as the single source of all the plagues, Old World diseases wiped out the New World, everything is determined by geography, basically the whole premise and conclusion of the video. The reasons why it's all wrong are covered in this post and the original badhistory post(s) on Guns Germs and Generalizations.

By the way, I agree that it's silly to talk about GGS as being the history book to rule all history books, and I think it's dubious to not put in some disclaimers about the whole thing being speculative.

If by "speculative" you mean "almost if not completely debunked", then yes.

[–]GoyimsIt was about Egyptian States' Rights 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My only question is the criticism of geological/environmental development being remixed in with traditional historical development? I don't see what else you could put in or suggest that would necessarily have as a argument. I agree that Jared does potato level historical analysis along with a terrible poli econ overlay, but I was just applying what I felt like was a decent view of past societies instead of just throwing away the whole argument.

[–]AGrimFox 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm a little late to the game here, but does anyone have recommendations of good history youtubers (or podcasts even) that cover topics like this?

I've tried to look for some, but most are either oversimplified (John Green's Crash Course for example) or unwatchably boring with a guy lecturing at a webcam for an hour.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you know our own /r/AskHistorians has a podcast? Thus far there are 51 episodes on topics ranging from African urbanism, to Marie Antoinette's scandalous dress, to the Pueblo Revolt of 1680. Lots of fun stuff, and most of the contributors provide a list of sources to dive deeper.

[–]Nocoffeesnob 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If we are discussing the corruptive influences of incredibly popular history videos we are almost obligated to mention Ken Burns; the king of myopic, misleading, and "single theory presented as the one truth" documentaries.

If you ever want to liven up a party full of pseudo intellectuals mention a dislike for Ken Burns and watch the mob bring out the torches.

[–]derlethLiterally Hitler: Adolf's Evil Twin 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

OK, it wasn't disease. It couldn't have been combat, because the ratios were one continent to, what, a few dozen ships? At most? So, how did the Spanish conquer? Sheer Mighty Whitey Awesomeness? What explains it?

[–]DefengarGilgamesh > Jesus 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I myself believe that disease did play one of, if not the biggest roles in the fall of the New World. However I have to make a point here.

A few dozen ships can contain a lot more men than you might think. Columbus's second voyage was with a fleet of just 17 ships, and on those 17 ships was a fully equipped Spanish army of ~1200 men, cannons, and a bunch of attack dogs. Yeah there was 100,000+ natives on Hispaniola, but that doesn't really matter when you think hard about the situation. Imagine a modern city or group of towns with 100,000+ people. Now think about what would happen if, without warning, a force of 1,200 marines showed up to take over the region and they had absolutely ZERO requirements or will to avoid collateral damage. The population would be completely fucked. Even if thousands had pistols and shotguns, they would still be fucked. disorganized paramilitary groups and insurgencies just do not work when fighting an enemy that is superior in training and tech, and is willing to kill every man, woman, and child to suppress dissent.

Also remember that the colonists often didn't fight alone. They had help from the natives themselves. In exchange for goods and/or vengeance, native societies in the New World aided colonists in their wars with other natives for centuries. Cortez himself was only able to beat the Aztecs because thousands upon thousands of men from tribes the Aztecs had oppressed rallied to him and helped tip the balance against the Aztec war machine.

[–]derlethLiterally Hitler: Adolf's Evil Twin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even if thousands had pistols and shotguns, they would still be fucked. disorganized paramilitary groups and insurgencies just do not work when fighting an enemy that is superior in training and tech, and is willing to kill every man, woman, and child to suppress dissent.

I think every Second Amendment supporter now officially hates you. /s

Seriously, though, good point.

Also remember that the colonists often didn't fight alone. They had help from the natives themselves. In exchange for goods and/or vengeance, native societies in the New World aided colonists in their wars with other natives for centuries. Cortez himself was only able to beat the Aztecs because thousands upon thousands of men from tribes the Aztecs had oppressed rallied to him and helped tip the balance against the Aztec war machine.

So the main flaw in the Independence Day films is that they didn't show the aliens contacting China and convincing them to knock off Russia while Brazil is used to swallow South America and...

[–]123celestekent321 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (17子コメント)

Since Diamond's theory did not depend entirely on this disease mechanism for support I can assume that the other parts of his theory still hold valid. Mainly the orientation of mountain ranges that block migrations and the superiority of technology.

I wonder just how recently this microbiological information has come to light and if Diamond actually could have included it in this work if he wanted. If this line of research has only come in the last 20 years then he could not have included it.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 29ポイント30ポイント  (6子コメント)

well, the problem is that, as /u/anthropology_nerd explained in her recent post, the damn thing is so flawed as to make refutation a Sisyphean task. She gives a pretty good assessment here and there's more in the comments link To be blunt, Diamond is reductionist, makes flawed arguments, and at times is flat out wrong

[–]AlotOfReadingMoctezuma was a volcano 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Academics have offered a fairly broad critique of Diamond's Collapse and to a lesser extent, GS&S. The data in Questioning Collapse: Human Resilience, Ecological Vulnerability, and the Aftermath of Empire is getting a bit dated now, but it was organized by the Amerind foundation in response to the popularity of Diamond's work and its glaring issues.

The Amazon reviews pretty much tell the story of its public reception too...

Ignore this review because I have not read the book. I read through the comments about the book. So utilizing these secondary sources I will make the following comments. I will take the Generalist, Comparitive approach over the Specialist approach when it comes to the Liberal Arts. Academic specialization is out of control. From general specialization (Sociology, Economics, Anthropology, Archaelogy, History, Geography, Political Science, et) and then it's subdivisions Political Economy, etc; they are all analyzing the same thing and calling it a different name.

I will take Jared Diamond or Joseph Campbell anyday over a bunch of Academic Specialists who can analyze the finger tip but don't see the entire human body. Just reading the comments about the curriculum vitae and resumes makes me gag. I wish Academics could see how similar they are to the military when it comes of "Fruit Salad" resumes and medals.

Or another good one:

Like many expert's books - in this case many experts joint effort - the inquisitive layperson is required to find his way through contradicting viewpoints, interpretations and even raw data. In this case it was easy to tell the reliable Collapse from the questionable Questioning Collapse: The 1st chapter that actually delivers data (after far too many claims without support) deals with Easter Islands' collapse. The data given contradicts Diamond's data sharply.

It's pretty clear that there's a large disconnect between academia and public opinion.

[–]StrangeSemiticLatin2Advanced Chariot Technology destroyed Greek Freedom 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

HER?!!

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

if memory serves. You got a problem with that?

[–]StrangeSemiticLatin2Advanced Chariot Technology destroyed Greek Freedom 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, just surprised. I have a terrible tendency of thinking that a lot of us are males because of the Internet/reddit and I referred to anthropologynerd as a "he" at least twice in this thread.

Forgive me anthropologynerd.

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol, no worries. I don't broadcast it, reddit has a strange love/hate relationship with women that is easier to avoid, but moo is right. I likewise just assume everyone is male until they say something. :)

[–]nukefudgeAgent Miluch (Big Smithsonian) 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there an anthropological problematique at play here? Assuming everyone is male, I mean. ;)

[–]anthropology_nerdGuns, Germs, and Generalizations[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

I will go back to check my sources, but if I remember correctly there was still plenty of debate in the literature when Diamond first published. The past 20 years of research have not been kind to GG&S, particularly the advances in genetics, which begs the question of why there hasn't been a serious retraction. I will check this weekend.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

which begs the question of why there hasn't been a serious retraction.

because he is busy teaching geography at UCLA while writing mediocre pop-anthropology books which sell well despite being kinda crap.

[–]A_Crazy_CanadianMy ethnic group did it first. 18ポイント19ポイント  (7子コメント)

I would suggest that the assumption that the rest of his theory is valid is very incorrect.

A few additional flaws include:

  • Diamond chronically underestimates the level of sophistication of the Native Americans relative to European's.

  • Diamonds idea's regarding technology and its spread are simplistic. (the QWERTY section is one example of its terribleness)

  • Diamond's proposal for historical science is at best a poor implementation of a methodology used by economists and economic historians.

  • Diamond overall approach is to examine a collection of "facts" about history, make something designed to explain these "facts", and say because it fits the facts its designed to explain it is true. This method is flawed for two reasons: first one can create a infinite number of explanations that fit the "facts" and second the group of facts Diamond is trying to explain are not all correct as stated above.

  • Diamond's section of China is generally consider to be laughable, for example the history of Japan over the same period suggests that Diamond's notion of "too centralized" is insufficient to explain China's exploitation by colonial powers.

  • Diamond ignores motivation for conquest, exploration and technology development.

All of these flaws suggest that Diamond should not be trusted without verification from an outside source.

Edit: Spelling

[–]DsagjiiggsScjjigsjsb 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

China's exploration

You mean exploitation?

[–]boruno 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Fun fact: in some languages, it's the same word.

[–]ElvenAshwin 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait, really? Which languages and... why?

[–]boruno 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Portuguese, for one. "Explorar" means both to exploit and to explore. As to why, I have no idea.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

This method method

typo mate

[–]nukefudgeAgent Miluch (Big Smithsonian) 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

It could be a meta statement of some sort... ;)

[–]A_Crazy_CanadianMy ethnic group did it first. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or I'm to tired to function.

[–]thepioneeringlemmingbenevolent colonial overlords -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

yes I remember reading something similar

I believe some sort of 'plague' also wiped out the Mayans, I can't remember where I read it though unfortunately.

[–]StrangeSemiticLatin2Advanced Chariot Technology destroyed Greek Freedom 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

That plague did a terrible job considering the demographics of Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras.

[–]sloasdaylightPoetry obeys a higher calling. In this case, punch stabbing. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The volcano stopped it before it got too bad.