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[–]itemtenOcean P.E. 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

So what's the conclusion?

The task is essentially sociological, he argues, with an acknowledgment: "To be fair, we don’t teach sociology."

That’s part of the problem, says Riley, who thinks her field is about to make the problem worse. Accreditation standards are being revised, which she argues will further dilute general-education requirements.

The proposed standards prescribe set amounts of time for studying science and mathematics (at least a year), and for engineering (a year and a half). General-education courses, too, have traditionally been included in this list of requirements, but only insofar as "adequate time and attention" can be devoted to them. The proposed standards remove those words altogether.

Oh, put more sociology into engineering curriculum based on the opinions of...sociologists.

Or, the conclusion could be that "accepting university students that hail from hotbeds of terrorism leads to terrorists having US university degrees." People pick engineering because it's practical, comes with some degree of notoriety, takes four years to get, and it's not med school. If business school actually came with the amount of respect business majors think they'll get when they exit, then there'd be more terrorists with MBA's.

[–]RetroMetropolitan 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

So what's the conclusion?

The author presents a number of different conclusions reached by experts, but does not explicitly endorse any of them.

Oh, put more sociology into engineering curriculum based on the opinions of...sociologists.

Sociologists do seem to have a good idea of what works in sociology.

Or, the conclusion could be that "accepting university students that hail from hotbeds of terrorism leads to terrorists having US university degrees."

The relationship between terrorism and engineering is statistically significant, according to the article. Other degrees may also be "practical, [come] with some degree of notoriety, [take] four years to get, and [not be] med school." Yet there is specifically a correlation between engineering and terrorism. That's the article's whole framing issue.

[–]dangersandwichAero - Aircraft Structures & Compliance 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree that there is bias and that the results of studies done on this so far are not statistically significant — but I don't think that's enough to completely dismiss the hypothesis that studying engineering could generate a higher incidence of extremism.

Engineers tend to be philosophical pragmatists. I think it's reasonable to guess that engineers, who tend to align themselves with pragmatist ideologies — making them susceptible to disillusionment of society and establishment (e.g. government) — and given certain environmental and economic factors, could result in extremism.

I also disagree with your implication that non-engineering coursework is unnecessary or bad. I can't tell you how many people I've met that have taken a "pure" engineering coursework path in university that couldn't form a coherent worldview or valid opinions on something because they didn't pay attention in their art, political science, history, literature, and economics classes.

The notion that non-engineering studies are somehow inferior to the hard sciences needs to fucking die.

[–]RetroMetropolitan 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with the bulk of what you said, but can I ask you two things?

  • What sort of bias do you think is present in the article?

I did not personally perceive any bias against engineers.

  • Why don't you think that the correlation between terrorism and engineering majors is statistically significant?

In particular:

The researchers narrowed their list to 207 people who pursued higher education and whose majors could be determined. A pattern emerged: 93 of them, nearly 45 percent, had studied engineering. This frequency far exceeded what would be predicted statistically; among male college students from the 19 countries represented in the sample, fewer than 12 percent studied engineering.

[–]dangersandwichAero - Aircraft Structures & Compliance 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Allow me to clarify;

  1. I didn't mean bias by the article, but bias in the study methodology. I haven't read the whitepaper yet, but I'm curious to see whether the researchers established a control group or a historical basis for their hypothesis. The article describes examples from recent history, and only briefly touched on historical examples:

    "By way of contrast, Gambetta and Hertog also explored which traits and disciplines applied to the opposite end of the political spectrum. Disgust seldom cropped up among those on the political left. And groups like the Baader-Meinhof Gang, in 1970s Germany, and Italy’s Red Brigades included few engineers but attracted plenty of social-science and humanities majors."

  2. Statistical significance is much deeper than observed majority of results. Some of the first things any person with statistical training looks for are:

    • Control: did the researchers establish controls to rule out factors that could potentially manifest as statistical biases? This is tricky in social sciences because there are more variables than anyone could ever hope to control for — the best you can do as a researcher is to control as many variables as reasonably practical for a given analysis (and repeat the analysis with different combinations of controls if you can't control all of them at once).
    • Population size: are the observed samples from a large enough population? Since this is a natural experiment (i.e. you can't reproduce it in a lab setting), researchers have to wait for it to occur "in the wild" and therefore can't artificially grow their sampled population; this inherently limits the results.
    • Confidence: did the researchers establish a confidence interval of the results to support (or contradict) their hypothesis/es? This is difficult in social sciences because not all hypotheses can be supported with quantified values and are often best explained by interpreting the results using words.

[–]rroach 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

The idea our education makes us terrorists is silly, but further reducing the humanities in our education is a bad move. It would just as dumb as removing science and math requirements from other non-science degrees.

Do we really need a crop of newly minted engineers who think shouting is a good rhetorical device and hentai is the pinnacle of Japanese culture?

[–]mustacheriot 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do we really need a crop of newly minted engineers who think shouting is a good rhetorical device and hentai is the pinnacle of Japanese culture?

hm?

[–]Dunewarriorz 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

he's stating a stereotype of engineers. but I agree with his point.

[–]mustacheriot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

oh i see now. thank you. I misread the first sentence and that confused me about the context.