全 194 件のコメント

[–]-eagle73 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pew Research, Pew Research, PEW BLOODY RESEARCH.

You can be anti Islam all you fucking want but Jesus Christ at least use some more sources, not ones that have been used on Reddit at least a billion times.

Woah dude, it's almost like there's very few reputable sources that support their heavily anti Islam opinions, who would've guessed?

This sort of stuff really grinds my gears, I see this Pew Research bullshit linked everywhere. It's like they've never written an essay before where multiple sources are needed for it to be believable.

Fucking hell /r/European.

[–]shamrockathens 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

So far this has been the only thing I don't agree with Bernie. I think religion does play a role into all this. In fact, out of marginalization, lack of resources or whatever other reason do have a play in the middle east, I think religion, specifically Islam and its fundamentalists are the problem. when a group tells you what motivates them you should maybe not disregard that as their motivation

Τhis is like saying "I agree with all Marxism except the part about the society influencing the individuals"

[–]dipakkk 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

sorry but it's maybe just /r/europe level of racism. /r/european is straight up white nationalism with not even a slight intention to veil it behind some whitey codewords

[–]thetacriterion 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

As much as I would have believed that this was a reddit problem, the level of discourse in the twitter replies doesn't seem much better.

[–]mapppa 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

serious question, why does the left demonize Christians at every chance but give Islam a pass ?

The "left" demonizes christianity as a whole? Since when? There is literally no politician of any importance who is speaking out against christianity in the US because they know that that would mean political suicide.

[–]Fopenplop 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

if they're worried that it's bernie's responsibility to be racist since hillary loves the towelheads, they should compare their AIPAC speeches. that should put their minds at ease.

[–]The-Atom 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the sound of Bernouts fleeing to the_donald by the thousands.

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 25ポイント26ポイント  (29子コメント)

If the Middle East was Methodist we'd be talking about Methodist Extremists. Religion is the cover, not the cause.

[–]LesterPearsonsProjct 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

As a guy who recently moved from a large multicultural city to the rural midwest, I am already talking about Methodist Extremists, but nobody is listening! :P

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Grew up in Texas, I hear ya. Those Methodists'll get ya, man.

[–]Lord_Blathoxi -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

Agreed. And the cause is the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the continued western support of Israel. That's the entire reason we're in this mess.

And I'm NOT anti-semitic. I love jewish people. I just know, for a fact, that that's why muslims and arabs are angry with us and doing this shit. That's why. If anyone asks why they hate us, the answer is "Israel". Period.

[–]eaturbrainz 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not sure how ironic you're being.

[–]Lord_Blathoxi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not being ironic at all. Why do you ask?

[–]Camton 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The extremism we're seeing today is as a result of Saudi Arabia's funding of global Wahhabism. Yes, Israel's existence (and American intervention) has fueled the flames of extremism post-9/11 but it's certainly not the root cause (although I suppose you could say without the Yom Kippur war Saudi Arabia might not have had the funds to finance Wahhabism around the world).

[–]Lord_Blathoxi -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, yes. Completely. But Israel is the lynchpin holding it all together.

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

It could also be because we keep invading their countries and supporting ruthless dictators.

[–]Lord_Blathoxi -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yes. It's all spelled out very well in Osama Bin Laden's 2002 Letter to the West.

And, for the record, I'm posting this for educational purposes and am NOT doing this to "spread propaganda" or anything at all.

We have to know what we're facing in order to deal with it in a peaceful way.

Knowing your "enemy" and why they hate you is essential to working for peace.

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Al Qaeda formed out of the groups that resisted occupation by the Soviets and later by the US, so it stands to reason that they really wouldn't exist without western intervention in the first place. Also, keep in mind that that letter is 14 years old. OBL is dead, and ISIS is far larger than Al Qaeda, with their own motivations and own origins. Suffice to say that there are many extremist groups that are loosely united under the banner of religion, but in reality they reflect political groups using religion as a cover.

[–]Lord_Blathoxi -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're mostly correct.

But it all stems from the Israeli occupation of Palestine. That's where this ALL stems from.

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it all probably stems from the West arbitrarily carving up territory in North Africa and the Middle East following WWII, completely ignoring traditional and cultural boundaries.

[–]Lord_Blathoxi -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, which was also part of how they created Israel.

[–]Originalfrozenbanana 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. It definitely stems from a common origin.

[–]PopPunkAndPizza 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

In the US the majority of terrorist attacks are by white supremacists and right-wing groups, I sure do wonder why Reddit doesn't talk about those!

[–]eaturbrainz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because a half-fascist country doesn't like to admit fascism exists.

[–]krutopatkin 18ポイント19ポイント  (12子コメント)

Well there are millions of Middle Eastern christians.

[–]Quouar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And during the Lebanese Civil War, the ones in Lebanon were rather violent at times.

[–]incogburritos 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

If the Middle East was majority Christian. The Christian minority is a bit busy trying not to be killed by the majority right now to do much else, not because their religion is superior but because of a minority/majority power balance.

You spend the better part of a century trying to loot an entire region for what it's worth, fuck with the domestic politics, prop up horrible dictators... you reap what you sow. Islam is the particular manipulative ideology for making young men fight and die for that vengeance, but as you can see with Trump -- it's not hard to froth up angry people if you're willing to say vile shit, regardless of the ideology behind it.

[–]dodadoBoxcarWilly 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

That explains why terrorists attack the West. And you're not wrong. But that doesn't explain why Sunni kill Shia and vice versa, then both turn around and kill Yezidis, Christians, Jews, Zoroastarians, followers of the Baha'i faith, etc. If you separate Islam from terrorism, you are basically saying Arabs and other ethnicities in the region are just inherently violent. Sounds a bit racist to me. I'm far from a supporter of banning Muslims or anything, and know most are fine. But let's not pretend that Islam itself doesn't play some role.

I mean, the US has exploited and manipulated the fuck out of South and Latin America, yet somehow their isn't an international movement to kill civilians abroad, centered in Latin America and perpetuated by Catholic Latinos. Same could be said of the Philippines.

[–]incogburritos 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

Cubans bombed the shit out of the United States in the 70s and 80s! Cubans tried to fire a bazooka at the UN!!!

There were big external and internal terrorist movements from South America in the 70s and 80s.

Their motivation was political and not religious, but the heart of the motivation -- power and who wields it where -- was no different than what we are seeing now in the Middle East and in the West.

And like I explained up above, internal targeting of minority religious and cultural groups is about power, not religion. Why did the Sri Lankans utterly annihilate the Tamil Tigers? Because they were a minority group fighting for independence. Why do Muslim state and non state actors target Jews? Because Israel was plopped into the middle of their territory.

Majority/minority conflicts exist everywhere and the Middle East isn't special in that regard because of Islam.

[–]dodadoBoxcarWilly -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Their motivation was political and not religious,

So religion does play a role in Islamic terror. That's all I'm saying. People here are acting like the motives for Islamic terror are 100% political. That's true to a point. But the religion plays a huge factor.

Sri Lankans don't try to kill civilians thousands of miles away. I get terrorism and ethnic cleansing exist in all shapes and sizes. I know it all morally equal, violence is violence. My point is, the Sandinistas never sent someone to the US to strap a bomb on their chest to blow up 50 random people in a mall.

If you can't see a difference in scale between a few isolated incidents of leftist terror and what has been going on in the Middle East and abroad in the last couple decades, you're being willfully ignorant.

[–]incogburritos 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

First of all, those Cubans were right wing terrorists. And right wing terrorism is more of a threat to Americans than Islamic terrorism:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?referer=&_r=0

Second of all, you're grossly simplifying what I said. Islam is the first most perfunctory layer of motivation. It's not the cause of any of this. Without it, it would be politics, or race, or ethnicity or the hundreds of other excuses people use.

The only thing different is access to resources and information. The millions of dollars funneled by the Saudis and others to these modern organizations far outstrips what South American groups ever had.

South America was also more destabilized than early 2000s middle east, meaning groups there fought for power and devoted their limited resources to that. Since America started completely destabilizing the region post 9/11, you see a ton more internal conflict. Same reasoning.

[–]dodadoBoxcarWilly -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

First of all, those Cubans were right wing terrorists.

I've truly never heard of that and a quick google search didn't bring up much. So that is was it is, but still an isolated incident.

And right wing terrorism is more of a threat to Americans than Islamic terrorism:

I know. I'm not disagreeing with that. Frankly as an American in a city with a large refugee community where many, if not most are Muslim, I'm not scared at all of a terrorist attack. Islam itself isn't the problem, it's disenfranchisement which happens to be a much bigger issue in Europe than the US, at least regarding Muslims both native and foreign born. Most Belgian radicals are third generation or so Belgian.

That brings me to my next point. There are millions of disenfranchised black youth in America, and that is a tragedy. Many turn to gangs and crime because there is no other outlet. But I have yet to hear of a single young black man from the inner city going into the suburbs and blowing up/shooting up a bus station full of white people because of institutional racism.

Why do so many disenfranchised Muslim youth in Europe turn to terrorism as an outlet?

[–]incogburritos 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good question! But you're starting from a false place:

Why do so many disenfranchised Muslim youth

It's not very many. We're talking a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction.

The parallel you draw to Black people in America isn't wrong either. Many people in that community consider what happened in Ferguson an uprising. But of course there's a long distance between that and suicide bombing. So how do you get there?

One way is the radicalization spread by Wahhabi mosques paid for by the house of Saud, which is propped up by us. We're talking kids from extremely young ages being taught to hate. The Koran is just the tool -- it could easily be the bible, it could be Mao's red book, it could really be any idealogical text. It's not hard to pervert (or take at face value) those kinds of works into pushing an extremely violent outlook.

For that violent outlook to take hold, you have to have fertile soil, however. People have to be poor, angry, and disfranchised before they'll ever take up arms.

In America, even the poorest communities have access to anesthetizing luxuries -- TV, video games, fast food, movies, sports, all kinds of entertainment. That's not the case in much of the rest of the world, where you have extremely poor people who are extremely angry and have very few outlets for pacification.

By the time they do reach the West... you're talking about years of indoctrination. And, again, the most base level of that indoctrination -- Islam -- is a smokescreen for the huge socio economic issues in the Middle East that allow that indoctrination to take hold.

And those socio economic issues, in my opinion, largely result from the huge and never ending interference of the West.

Edit: totally forgetting about Western born muslims going off to fight with ISIS, which I'm sure you're talking about (to my knowledge, no Western born Muslims have committed suicide attacks in Europe but I could be wrong). I think there you have the romanticized notion of fighting for freedom. It's not Western "Freedom" but there's a long history of this kind of thing across cultures. Americans when to fight and die in the Spanish Civil War purely based on ideology. Also, young people are fucking stupid as shit. A good sales pitch, and ISIS has a fucking fantastic sales pitch, is often enough to convince stupid kids to do stupid shit. And as we've clearly seen in a ton of news reports, plenty of those Western kids who left to fight with ISIS definitely regret that decision.

[–]Quouar 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sri Lankans may not have tried to kill civilians thousands of miles away, but Sikhs certainly did. So did the IRA. Violence is not limited to Islam.

[–]GlassSoldier 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Somehow I don't think most people would make the distinction

[–]shadowenx 33ポイント34ポイント  (0子コメント)

ghetto dwellers

wild animals

Wow.

[–]jsmooth7 37ポイント38ポイント  (3子コメント)

Reddit has been driving me crazy with the refugee issue today. So many comments about how it's not racist/xenophobic to deny refugees because they have rational reasons. And then they start describing those reasons and it turns they have absolutely no idea how the system works. They assume the US just makes the absolute dumbest mistakes and ISIS could easily just waltz right in. It's quite amazing.

[–]Peggy-Suue 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I sure hope fellow Americans are paying attention to it. Because I've seen more than a few people from Canada and Europe saying they will gleefully deny Americans that try to flee Trump if he becomes president.

[–]DeezNutzGuy 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Out of all places, /r/askreddit had the most rational views, which is surprising.

[–]aerophobia 113ポイント114ポイント  (9子コメント)

Most Bernie supporters on reddit have deluded themselves into thinking they're progressive because they want their legal weed and free college. So when their candidate of choice comes out and says something actually progressive, it shatters this self-image and they don't know how to deal with it.

I dunno. I almost prefer the Trumpeters. They're shitty, but at least they don't pretend otherwise.

[–]-eagle73 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hear you tbh at least Trump and his supporters are out there about their opinions.

[–]ameoba 56ポイント57ポイント  (1子コメント)

they want their legal weed and free college

Emphasis added. Get them talking about any sort of social programs that actually help poor people and you might as well be watching Fox News.

[–]DeezNutzGuy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't tell which jerk the sanders supporters want to support on that sub, it's a literal shitfest.

[–]ProfitMoney 28ポイント29ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hint: these aren't all Bernie Sanders supporters. SFP has been getting brigaded heavily for weeks now.

[–]kwertyuiop 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it really seems like people were interested in a progressive change and these are different people we're talking about. The sub has changed for the worse after Super Tuesday.

[–]Sandflapjack 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

Ah, the ol "its just third party trolls" angle.

[–]TheKareemofWheat 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly he's right. There's been a ton of brigading going on there since last Tuesday by mostly Trump supporters.

[–]DeadDoug 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

/r/The_Donald is brigading again?

I am SHOCKED to hear that

[–]TehAlpacalypse 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

They somehow NIMBLY NAVIGATE into other subs all the time! It's magical!

[–]ias6661 4ポイント5ポイント  (21子コメント)

I know fellows here hate the jerk against Islam, but what if a similar sentiment is dressed in a more coherent form and expressed by the current president of the United States?

[–]incogburritos 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sure, but even if that argument is correct, we're talking about a monster we created and now want to blame the fundamentals of the religion for. It was the Wahhabi madrasas the Saudis spread around the world that have radicalized people. How did they spread them? Because the US universally supports the house of Saud and their oil money.

So we're either blaming an entire religion wrongly for the acts of a few, or we're blaming a sect of a religion correctly for acts tacitly encouraged by our own government (a government stance that, BTW, would definitely not fucking change at all under any administration save possibly Bernie Sanders).

Either way, we're in the wrong.

[–]Media_Adept 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. The United States is not even close to responsible for creating Islamic Fundamentalists. To go from point A of buying oil to point F of spreading fundamentalist terrorism is reaching too damn far. We work with what we got. Unfortunately, a supplier of oil has fundamentalist views. We do business, but it's not even our main source of oil.

[–]Halofit 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

The Obama Doctrine by Jeffrey Goldberg (it's linked in your link) is a must read. It's been the source on numerous articles on Obama recently. It's very long but offers real insight into Obama's thinking and policy decisions.

One of my favorite sections in the article that are related to the issue here, especially the Indonesia part:

In private encounters with other world leaders, Obama has argued that there will be no comprehensive solution to Islamist terrorism until Islam reconciles itself to modernity and undergoes some of the reforms that have changed Christianity.

Though he has argued, controversially, that the Middle East’s conflicts “date back millennia,” he also believes that the intensified Muslim fury of recent years was encouraged by countries considered friends of the U.S. In a meeting during apec with Malcolm Turnbull, the new prime minister of Australia, Obama described how he has watched Indonesia gradually move from a relaxed, syncretistic Islam to a more fundamentalist, unforgiving interpretation; large numbers of Indonesian women, he observed, have now adopted the hijab, the Muslim head covering.

Why, Turnbull asked, was this happening?

Because, Obama answered, the Saudis and other Gulf Arabs have funneled money, and large numbers of imams and teachers, into the country. In the 1990s, the Saudis heavily funded Wahhabist madrassas, seminaries that teach the fundamentalist version of Islam favored by the Saudi ruling family, Obama told Turnbull. Today, Islam in Indonesia is much more Arab in orientation than it was when he lived there, he said.

“Aren’t the Saudis your friends?,” Turnbull asked.

Obama smiled. “It’s complicated,” he said.

The article also goes on to describe how he was unwilling to condemn Islam publicly for the fear of inciting anti-muslim/arab sentiment.

[–]balanceofpower 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jeffrey Goldberg

Crap. I was so confused. I was asking why anyone in this sub would link to this guy's work until I realized I was thinking of Jonah "Liberal Fascism" Goldberg. This Goldberg, OTOH, checks out.

[–]-eagle73 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not sure why the hijab thing is a big issue, if it was the niqab then I'd get it.

[–]vitsikany 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's less that the Hijab is "bad," and more that it's a sign that things are changing rapidly there.

[–]ias6661 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh yeah. I read the whole thing. One of the more inspiring pieces out there.

[–]kyunkyunpanic 68ポイント69ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you want to have a critical discussion about fundamentalist religion and if it still has a place in society, including Islam, I don't think anybody is going to have a problem with that. The problem is that a ton of people use that as something to hide behind when really they just want to say "I hate all those bearded brown arabs with funny sounding names, they're all rapefugees!"

[–]Peggy-Suue 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly. 20 out of the 27 terrorist attacks the United States has seen, were done by radical christians. But sure, let's throw Islam under the truck when it hasn't even perpetuated a third of it.

[–]Mr_Holmes 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Source? I believe you but I'd like to see the numbers myself.

[–]redwhiskeredbubul 28ポイント29ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know fellows here hate the jerk against Islam, but what if a similar sentiment is dressed in a more coherent form

I think a common reservation about the Bill Maher/Harris position is that it's incoherent, so I'm not sure this is a fair question.

[–]Janvs[S] 32ポイント33ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think that if Obama is a secret Muslim that he's really bad at it.

[–]Benthetraveler 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trump send some guys to Hawaii and you won't believe what they found let me tell ya. Now if only he would reveal that information.

[–]gliph 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

My god, his disguise is even better than we thought.

[–]ias6661 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Uh...no sane person would think that Obama is a secret Muslim :/

[–]Janvs[S] 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]-eagle73 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

He's a Goddamn Muzzie why didn't we elect a Polish guy they're the best people on earth!

10 points for guessing the sub.

[–]Janvs[S] 38ポイント39ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, the title is an exaggeration, but I'm not a professional title maker or anything.

[–]TroutFishingInCanada 52ポイント53ポイント  (4子コメント)

These people literally think that a book makes terrorists.

[–]shamrockathens 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

And that this book has been interpreted and used politically in one single way since 632 AD. "Modern Islam is obviously the continuation of the Caliphate, duh, open a history book".

It's always funny listening to far-right bigots here in Greece talking about the "threat of Islamisation" when the truth is we were conquered for 400 years by a Muslim-majority empire (the Ottoman) and no Islamisation occured.

[–]Orphan_Script 31ポイント32ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except as it applies to mein kampf, of course. Because as we all know, and have been beaten over the head with, mein kampf was *'censored' and now it isn't and all these people aren't literally turning into Nazis.

*mein kampf was never censored, the title was just owned and not published. There's really a whole mess of stupidity and hypocrisy to unravel here in relation to reddit's views on the Koran, mein kampf, and censorship in general.

[–]redwhiskeredbubul 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except as it applies to mein kampf, of course. Because as we all know, and have been beaten over the head with, mein kampf was *'censored' and now it isn't and all these people aren't literally turning into Nazis.

The number of people in Germany who were actually turned to the NSDAP by plodding through Mein Kampf is probably tiny compared to the number of people who joined in order not to get stalled from a promotion or because of a propaganda film.

[–]Orphan_Script 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In both cases I don't blame the book, is what I'm getting at. It's true with IS as well that a lot of people have joined not due to religious considerations but due to social standing, and perhaps they perceive that it's necessary.

[–]rick_from_chicago 77ポイント78ポイント  (10子コメント)

I mean, I wouldn't call the full /r/european -- that's a very distilled and very identifiable form of bigotry

This is just Reddit's "political left" expressing its priorities, which don't happen to coincide with their favorite candidate

("Western Islam," though, oh man)

[–]ALoudMouthBaby 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

("Western Islam," though, oh man)

The Pew Study the comment mentions is almost certainly one that is heavily cherry picked in a rather popular Stormfront copy/paste that made the round several years ago.

[–]Cardboard95 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Western Islam comment. It adopts a very orientalist and simplistic view of The Middle East.

To him everyone living there is monolithic with the same mindset. In countries in the ME with democracy there are liberals and conservatives (just like us you know), and in some authoritarian and dictatorships there are pro democracy activists and counter activists.

Its almost like individuals there develop and form their own political opinion and values. Not like some hivemind, if anything thats Reddit. (Recommend giving that link a watch btw)

[–]gliph 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Didn't you hear? /r/european isn't racist.

[–]Orphan_Script 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

("Western Islam," though, oh man)

Yeah that's what I took from it. Just wow. I mean you do have to be pretty far down a bigoted rabit hole to say shit like that, but in the eyes of /r/European there is no 'western Islam'.

[–]ALoudMouthBaby 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

but in the eyes of /r/European there is no 'western Islam'.

This always cracks me up. They claim that no Muslims are westernized, they are just pretending to do so.

When I lived in Houston the mall I would take my son too was in an area with a decent sized Muslim population, I would routinely see women in hijabs eating McDonalds while carrying around bags from Victoria's Secret, Express and other very western stores. Its like the people spewing that garbage dont actually know any Muslims, their views are completely based on some garbage they read on the internet.

[–]eaturbrainz -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Muslim women in hijabs shop at those stores in the Middle East, too, including the fundamentalists who'll yell "Death to America!" for a free meal and day out. Fundamentalism is about politicizing identity in the fascist/counterrevolutionary mold, not actually preserving ancient traditions. Actual ancient traditions were always living, debated matters anyway.

[–]goyaguava 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would routinely see women in hijabs eating McDonalds while carrying around bags from Victoria's Secret, Express and other very western stores

it's almost like people can be Muslim and American!

(not criticizing you, just the people who think this isn't possible)

[–]ALoudMouthBaby 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's almost like people can be Muslim and American!

No no no, you see people are absolutely defined by their race and religion. Except white people.

[–]T3canolis 118ポイント119ポイント  (37子コメント)

I know it's such a cliche rebuttal, but I really would like these "We should be fighting Islam" folks to come face-to-face with the Muslims who fight in the US military.

[–]bigDean636 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The people who are trying to boil the complexities of U.S. interventionism and geopolitics all the way down to "The West vs Islam" are only doing so in order to blind you and manipulate you. If you let them, you're just another cog in the war machine.

[–]HasuTeras 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd kind of like to see numbers per capita for that. In the UK we have more (by orders of magnitude) Muslims who have left to fight for ISIS than we have serving in the British armed forces.

[–]MrMango786 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

the Muslims who fight in the US military.

Or even just the average Muslim US citizen. Being one, I get really frustrated that people in my country don't know people like me exist. I.e. moderate, non-beard-wearing Muslims.

[–]T3canolis 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately, I don't think it's a case of them not actually knowing that moderate Muslims live in America, but rather that they don't believe that moderate Muslims exist at all.

I'm so sorry at how our country treats you guys.

[–]theonlywayoutis2 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey! We can wear beards now and not be mistaken for crazies, akhi. The hipsters have made it cool. Just wear a semi-ironic shirt half the time.

[–]ThePerdmeister[🍰] 72ポイント73ポイント  (25子コメント)

I'd be happier if they just came "face-to-face" with the US military (or recognized nearly a century of brutal, unilateral US intervention in the region).

"Why do people in the Middle East hate us?" Well, it might have something to do with our continued support for repressive, status quo regimes, or perhaps it arises out of the coups we've organized/supported or the handful of illegal wars of aggression we've waged in the region -- a few of which are recent enough that there's really no excuse for ignoring their consequences, one major consequence has of course been to "fan the flames" of violent Islamic fundamentalism, spreading what were small, isolated pockets of radicals across the entire region (and this is well apart from hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of civilian deaths, the razing of infrastructure in some of the most developed Middle Eastern nations, generating the worst refugee crises since World War 2, etc. -- things which have the predictable corollary of inspiring mistrust and hatred of the perpetrators). We might even think about 70+ years of support for radical Islamic groups (often at the exclusion of secular Arab nationalism, even when given a choice between the two) might have the effect of spreading Islamic extremism across the region.

Of course all of this can be discounted, because the root of radical Islam and of mistrust of the US in the Middle East has absolutely nothing to do with western (principally American) intervention in the region. Rather, this hatred arises entirely out of them reading a different book from us.

[–]eaturbrainz -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stripping the Middle East of its geopolitical agency to peddle a naive anti-imperialist narrative is just as Orientalist, though.

[–]vestayekta 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember that at the start of the civil war in Syria, many people on reddit praised rebels and wanted their governments to support them. Some of us talked about the dangers of supporting these groups, but of course, redditors thought they knew better.

[–]ModTheTerrible 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

you can't ignore the usa's recent actions that were devastating to stability in the muslim world like with iraq and libya, but going back 100 years and blaming all of america and the american military for every foreign entanglement during that time period is going down the same road as blaming all of islam for the recent attacks in brussels. stuff like operation ajax was happening before most of america's current population was even born.

also, this is /r/SandersForPresident we're talking about here, sanders himself has stated multiple times that the iraq war was one of the biggest instigators for the rise of groups like isil.

[–]ThePerdmeister[🍰] 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

stuff like operation ajax was happening before most of america's current population was even born.

I'm not certain I understand what you're getting at, so forgive me if I've misunderstood the point you're trying to make. To be clear, it wasn't my intent to suggest that the whole of the US is to blame for the mess in the Middle East. When I say "the US," this is basically shorthand for "US policymakers, powerful or wealthy national interests, etc." -- often the goals or actions of policymakers and powerful interests are totally out of line with the desires of the American citizens. I mean, on this point, we might note that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was the first war in US history to be protested in advance by huge chunks of the US population.

We might also note on the other hand that nearly 70% of Americans supported the invasion, but I don't think we should discount the sustained propaganda campaign that effectively whipped the population into Muslim-hating warmongers (in 2003 an overwhelming majority of US media was favourable to invasion while only 3% opposed it, for instance).

It also wasn't my intent to suggest that the US is to blame for every bit of instability for the past 100 years -- I just think it bears mentioning that, throughout nearly a century of western intervention, we've tended to provide an atmosphere amenable to Islamic fundamentalism at every important historical juncture.

also, this is /r/SandersForPresident we're talking about here, sanders himself has stated multiple times that the iraq war was one of the biggest instigators for the rise of groups like isil.

Based on my limited knowledge of Sanders, I'd say he's very good on the issue of brutal, unilateral intervention, but Sanders isn't in question here -- the brogressives of Reddit are, and, from where I'm standing, the brogressives of Reddit tend toward the "Islam is the blame" explanation.

[–]ModTheTerrible 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think we agree in principle on iraq then. i wasn't denying the linked thread is a hotbed of poorly hidden bigotry, the point i was trying to get across was the sanders quote itself is what got the thread to the frontpage of sandersforpresident and then to the /r/all frontpage, not the shitty comments attached to it.

[–]T3canolis 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a great comment, with a lot of great points, and I think you should know that.

[–]Janvs[S] 99ポイント100ポイント  (5子コメント)

Oh, don't worry, that's "Westernized Islam" and therefore ok.

[–]T3canolis 82ポイント83ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, of course. The ol' "X group of people is bad, except for the ones I know."

[–]Orphan_Script 36ポイント37ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have a brown friend!

[–]SpilledKefir 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

We go golfing together at the country club on the weekend! He's my caddie, of course.

[–]Orphan_Script 37ポイント38ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lmao I literally know a little racist-lite brogressive who said this shit one time, except his black friend happens to be his weed dealer. Just can't get any dumber.

[–]chris-bro-chill 88ポイント89ポイント  (23子コメント)

Who are these leftists supposedly trashing Christians/Christianity?

I'm a Christian and many at my church are straight up socialists and communists. None of us have ever heard vitriol about our faith purely from the left. It's mostly from redditors, honestly.

[–]gliph 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm super far left by American standards and plenty of my friends are religious. No one I know has a problem with Christians.

[–]kgb_operative 41ポイント42ポイント  (5子コメント)

"Social justice" as a modern concept was founded in christian principles, and the case can be strongly made that Christ himself was at least as leftist as a modern social democrat.

[–]chris-bro-chill 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah any time I tell redditors what I believe, it's pretty much immediately comments about how spooky of a skeleton I am for thinking all people have worth and dignity for being made in the Imago Dei.

[–]NBegovich 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Uh, Christ told people to leave their possessions behind and join him in comforting the sick and poor, so... yeah...

[–]Lord_Blathoxi 38ポイント39ポイント  (1子コメント)

Jesus Christ: the first SJW.

[–]distinctvagueness 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That creationist guy against most divorce?

[–]AbstergoSupplier 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bill Maher + Dan Savage most likely, so basically none

[–]AdrianBrony 26ポイント27ポイント  (4子コメント)

Christianity has a very rich history with far left politics. Some of the earliest notions of modern anarchism and socialism originated in devout Christian sects. The book of Acts has been a strong inspiration in many of those communities even.

The baptist church is actually structured in a way that's very in line with a lot of anarchist thought.

[–]NBegovich 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oooh, I was actually raised Baptist. Can you talk more about that?

[–]AdrianBrony 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Baptist Church is based around the Congregationalist Polity, as well as the doctrine of Soul Competency, which really the two are inseparable.

The Southern Baptists are different from the Independent Baptists are different from the Fundie Baptists are different from the non-affiliated Baptist Congregations for the exact same reason: Because the Congregationalist Polity gives the Congregation more power than the Pastor OR the Deacons.

Congregations could enter fellowships or conferences, which is how divisions like Southern Baptist happens, but are under no obligation to remain and could back out at any time by the will of the individual churchgoers.

Soul Competency was the belief that, essentially, it was the responsibility of the individual believer to understand and follow the word of god, and while the church can provide guidance and assistance, it wasn't their place to enforce any doctrine or judge on differences in spiritual belief.

It's perfectly in line wit the basic, core tenents of the Baptist Church for there to be an Anarcho-socialist baptist church, or even an anarcho-socialist conference of congregations.

If I were able to emotionally handle spirituality, let alone religious belief, I'd probably attempt to start such a movement...

[–]NBegovich 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for the write-up! I was raised Fundie, though, so I don't think it applies haha

[–]chris-bro-chill 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm Southern Baptist.

The SBC has a set of basically "non negotiable" issues in our statement of faith that all congregations must agree with, but past that each church has full autonomy to worship and do justice and mercy as they please.

[–]Orphan_Script 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

Plenty of leftists are categorically against organized religion, myself included, but actual leftists are fairly rare and even among us none of us trash Christianity. At most we have problems with the church. As an institution. But nuance is a ghost in those parts, so.

[–]Janvs[S] 52ポイント53ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haven't you heard about the savage war being waged on Christmas? The liberal assault on Christianity is real.

[–]Mercury-7 44ポイント45ポイント  (1子コメント)

They're going to freak out when they find out liberation theology exists.