On The Brink of Divorce

UEMcGill · 6時間前

First, you can only fix you. Your wife has problems, but there's always two broken people in the marriage. Read the sidebar, specifically No More Mr Nice Guy and When I Say No I feel Guilty.

She says that sex isn't affection

Case in point. She says that, but what she really means is "She says that sex isn't affection for her" On the other hand she tells you she wants emotional support from you, but she won't give you the intimate support you need. To top this off she wants you to feel guilty for expressing your desires, ala "She doesn't like my general disposition."

Then there's this:

Even when we watch TV, which unfortunately is the only time I get to spend with her, she’s on her phone shopping. I’ve asked her to work on that numerous times but she completely ignores my requests. She’ll continually pull out her phone and stay on it, even if we’re visiting with family or if we’re on a drive someplace together.

We tell men not to listen to a woman's words but to watch her actions. She's not sharing a bed with you, she's in a room with you but ignoring you, and she won't even acknowledge your needs in the face of her medical problems. Her medical problems are very real, but in the face of that, she isn't acknowledging that you have needs and wants too.

So let's restate the facts. You have all the classic indicators of being a nice guy. You seek validation from her, and she doesn't give it to you. She just isn't really into you and on another thread you said she asked for a divorce. To top it all off she has a serious medical condition that makes your sex life all but impossible.

You my friend don't have the tools to fix this, yet. You can't act from a position of "How do I change her mind and make her the wife she was?" because only she has that capacity. What you can do is go back, and fix your problems. Change your validation seeking behavior, change nice guy problems and become a better man. Maybe, you'll be in a better position to say, "Hey this marriage just isn't worth it" or maybe you'll be able to say "Hey she has problems but I am able to give freely without expectation of anything in return and help her the way she needs it." Right now you can't do either.

Ordinary_Gentelman · 7時間前

i read his and it's almost word for word my starting situation (minus the medical stuff). 4 months later and things have improved.

Read the sidebar information.

Start with No More Mr Nice Guy and keep going.

I can't speak for the medical issues but keep doing what you are doing and your marriage will fail. Do what MRP says and you have a chance. If you don't bother with any of this, other relationships here after won't be better either because you have to fix the fundamental problem.

You.

Welcome to the world. It's isn't as you were lead to believe.

RPAlternate42 · 3時間前

When training anything, martial arts, art, math, programming, anything that requires a complex combination of moving parts, the method is always to learn by rote, then practice by feel.

I'm going to lay out what you will do. In the course of the next few months, while you do those things, you will read, learn, lurk, and learn more.

I'm amazed in the number of men that arrive in MRP ask the simple questions, and can't see the simple answers. Maybe I'm special and can keep things objective... maybe I'm not and I'm simply an emotionless sociopath. But may, JUST maybe, the questions and problems really are simple and the man in question hasn't actually looked at the basics.

Improving your Marriage means Improving You

Only you can fix you. You can't fix her. She may ask for help, she may ask questions on how to do something or how she can be better. Offer advice, offer direction, show her the trough, but know you can't make that horse drink.

**Divorce is always an option**

If you are one of the guys that says , "I can't divorce because X, Y, or Z" then stop reading, close this reddit account, go sit on your couch, and watch TV while your wife browses pinterest as a defense mechanism for her revulsion of you.

Divorce is always an option because being cornered with no way out makes you lash out and get aggressive and angry.

Improving your Marriage means Preparing to be Single

Since divorce has likely crossed your mind, and you've accepted that it is a valid option, your wife and your marriage is now a sandbox in which to test your SMV and frame on a woman who knows you (which makes it difficult.) As you move through the dread levels and improve your body, wardrobe, frame, demeanor, etc., she will adjust her opinion and behavior. Likewise, having a woman with you in public while you improve serves to add some pre-selection to you. If your wife is a sloppy mess, leave her at home; quality men don't hang out with sloppy messes.

Monogamy is the exchange of sexual exclusivity for sexual access.

You are offering her sexual access, so she must give you sexual exclusivity. She is not giving you sexual access, so she is forfeiting your sexual exclusivity.

Chances are you are not in a place to capitalize on this reality, but there are levels of dread for that, and you may or may not get there. Time will tell.

Ultimately, understanding this exchange and knowing that divorce is always an option should be anchored in your mind. When you are a year into this process you can look back and go, I had sex 4 times last year. That is unacceptable. She is not offering me reasonable sexual access; I'm going to get reasonable sexual access from someone else. (Dread level 11.)

Perhaps this is something you find you are good at, but for whatever reasons (legal, kids, etc.) you should still be married... then you can look back on the year and then tell her that you have been finding sexual access from other women and that you won't be bothering her for it.* Of course she gets the right to first refusal, but a year in to a sex-deprived marriage is easy grounds for telling her that all sexual exclusivity is forfeit until you deem it so. (Dread Level 12).

If she wants to divorce as a result, you probably won't care at this point.

Be Happy... or at least Look Happy

She doesn't like your disposition. Women are better at covert communications. She can read your butthurt whether you think so or not. She can read your anger whether you think so or not. But her powers aren't limitless: put on a happy face and she will be confused. Likely, she will be upset that you are so happy. Don't worry about it because it's better to have her upset than apathetic.

This "fake happy" is your new facade until "real happy" becomes your reality.

BTW, fake happy becomes easier when you see that tools like A&A, I&E, fogging, and the like all work to confound her; it's fun.

Unless she is a social retard, she knows her marriage sucks and that you should be pissed off... but if you are always happy, she is going to wonder, why? our marriage sucks and I'm a bitch... he should feel awful all the time!

OK, this will stave off the bullshit in your head for a bit... download/buy/borrow/steal a book to keep your mind busy in the meantime.

The First Book

I'm going to go against the grain here, but I recognize some things that I saw in myself: an understanding that the situation is fucked up, you know that "being nice" isn't working, and won't work. Most recommend No More Mister Nice Guy as the first book. I'm going to recommend Married Man Sex Life Primer.

MMSLP, I think is not just a sex life primer, but a very soft introduction into RP and a very loose summary of many other readings; the important bullet point aspects, distilled. MMSLP is the book that brought me here. MMSLP spoke to me the most out of all the books because it very plainly said, "you're not special in this... most guys experience this. It's okay to look at your wife and say if you're not going to fuck me, then I don't have time for you. If you're going to be a bitch, I'm going to be around better people."

Start reading this book now. Do it quietly. I read mine at the gym between sets.

Dread

Your wife has demonstrated (not said) that she isn't interested in you, your feelings, your opinion, your body, your companionship, or your time.

Read your post over again and then read that last sentence again. See where the congruities are: She doesn't fuck you, she ignores you when you are present, she gaslights you when you aren't, she doesn't appreciate that you are trying to help her, and I'm sure there are things you haven't told us.

It's time to start implementing dread in a calculated and controlled manner.

Here's where new guys get stuck: move slow and never, ever be a dick about it.

Daily Interactions

Your daily interactions with her are going to be based on two things: her treatment of you and sexual access:

Because she no longer wants your company, stop trying to give it.
Be away (or, absence makes the heart grow fonder.) Have hobbies, be at the gym, have friends, make some more, be with them. Always have the ability to say, "I'm going to X" when she gets too harpy.
Since she no longer wants sex from you (and I diverge from the groupthink here, I believe) stop looking for it from her (or, abstinence makes the heart grow fonder.) If she offers, take it and smash away, but until then, you're on the wagon. this is temporary. There will come a time when you absolutely know sex should be a thing that is happening (and could happen with someone) regardless of how she sees you. Only you will truly know this.
Try to avoid starting casual conversations with her. If she speaks to you, converse away, until then, keep it logisitcal. No feelings. No Red-Pill talk. You are always awesome and things are always great.
Never be sad, upset or angry. Instead be indifferent or disappointed.
IDGAF means good things make you happy and bad things make you, at worst, indifferent. It's not that you don't give a fuck, it's that the things that she thinks you should give a fuck about don't affect you.

PemBayliss · 6時間前

First, your wife's medical issues need to get straightened out. It still sounds like the thyroid issue isn't fixed. Your wife needs to get that looked at again. That's her issue and her thing to work on.

You need to stop complaining at your wife about this, and start building a life for you outside of your marriage. You didn't talk about any hobbies or outside interests. If you don't have some outside interests or hobbies, you need to get some. You need things that are interesting, cool, awesome and that will give you things to talk about.

I suggest you withdraw affection from your wife. She's not putting effort into the marriage; so you should start withdrawing your own effort. That doesn't mean "be rude"; but it does mean that you aren't investing so much of yourself and your emotional and mental health in the state of your marriage.

Whenever she's on her phone, absent yourself from her. Tell her you won't be around someone who's constantly fingerfucking her phone, and you won't be constantly waiting hand and foot on her. Tell her that you aren't going to pretend anymore, or put on emotional shows for her. You won't pretend to be "happy" merely because it makes her feel better.

Your wife wants you to be happy even though everything sucks. If you're happy, it means things suck less for her. Deep down, she knows her life sucks and that yours does too. She knows that not having sex causes your life to suck too. So what you need to do is not show her how it sucks; you need to put distance between you and her. Her life might suck, but that doesn't mean yours has to.

As an aside: Your wife's got some depression going on, I think, and it sounds severe. She's buying a bunch of shit online and then selling it. She sleeps 12 hours a day. She demands your emotional state remain even keeled while she falls apart.

Do you have kids? Because that makes a big difference on how much effort I'd suggest you put in. If this can't be turned around pretty quick, and there are no kids involved, it might be a good idea to consider ending the marriage at some point. But you're not at that point, at least not yet.

dandar4600 · 6時間前

Well you used to have much more sex than you have now so listen to what she does, not what she says. I don't believe the period thing. She probably says this just so you won't initiate. Irregardless, what's wrong with period sex? Throw a towel on the bed and fuck her good. No sex for 3 months? Why the iud then? Kind of defeats the purpose no?

Are you sure she's shopping on the phone or is it something she tells you she's doing? If you can't curb her spending split finances and make her pay her share. Whatever she has left over is none of your concern.

Why did you move out of the bedroom? Or was it her? Moving out of the bedroom puts a sent in initiating. You can't have sex if you don't initiate. Again why the iud? With the phone situation it almost sounds like she's cheating.

You're lifting so that's good. What have you read from the sidebar?

stonepimpletilists · 5時間前

How would you handle this situation?

I'd punch myself in the dick, hard, and often for a combination of captain saveaho, marrying mommy, and being a pussy.

GO check out and read the sidebar reading, the back here, and stop asking people what you should do with your life.

But, if we are doing the twich plays pokemon with your life, may I suggest putting down 5 year old letters?

You're been the cruelst person ever to her. She wanted, nay, needed a strong man to anchor her shit to... you've denied her that for almost a decade. You're the parent who was too weak to say no to the kid eating all day, and now sitting here and saying that they can't figure out how they got diabetes. Your goto answer of waiting for someone else to tell you what to do speaks volumes.

Oh, and with the IUD, they are like electronics, if they break, it's in the first week, chances are there's something wrong with the install, go get her back to the doc and get it re inserted.

'By the way, this isn't the tough love' that you seem to be craving here. You need to realistically assess your shit right now. It's painfully obvious to everyone, and you shouldn't be thanking anyone for pointing it out to you

Archwinger · 5時間前

People fight more after counseling than ever before. Counseling causes one of two things: 1) divorce; 2) complete capitulation by the man and a lifetime of unhappiness so he can stay in the same house as his kids.

Honestly, your marriage is too far gone if she's already asking for a divorce. She may even be already planning it and meeting with lawyers behind your back. See a lawyer and get ready, so you'll have a plan in place if you get served papers.

Then start with the low levels of dread and work your way up. I don't think your marriage will make it, because if she's already looking for an out and already doesn't care about you in the slightest and has already pretty much left the marriage and left any sort of friendly relationship with you behind and just mooches off of you, then she's going to divorce pretty quickly into the dread levels. You'll be at the gym more often than she likes or ignore a few text messages and she'll shrug and file for divorce, because she's that far gone already. You're not even going to get to having a strong, independent social life before you're divorced. That's my guess anyway. But it's your only shot if you want to stay married, so you might as well follow the process and see if she comes around. If you end up divorced or she never comes around, you'll be in a much better position for meeting and fucking far better women.

BluepillProfessor · 6時間前

She doesn't think people have sex as often as they do, and she actually believes her parents don't have sex anymore

Well if her PARENTS don't have sex any more, that should be just fine for you. What's the problem?

I don't treat her badly or cruelly at all, I do everything I always have, just begrudgingly since she's gone off in left-field.

There is a book just for you: No More Mr. Nice Guy.

Passive/Aggressive anger is no way to go through life.

She says its not enough that I do the things, I have to honestly and truly feel that I am doing them for her because I love her and not out of obligation.

When you can finally say something like: "EXACTLY! I want you to suck my cock every day because you love me, not out of obligation" everything will change.

I AM NOT SAYING FOR YOU TO IMMEDIATELY TELL HER THIS. I AM SAYING YOU NEED TO BUILD YOURSELF UP SO THAT WHEN YOU TELL HER THIS YOU TRULY MEAN IT.

Ultimately much of what she says is correct. Drop the covert contracts. Tell her what you want. If something needs to be done, do it with a smile because you are the captain and the one in charge.

Then Instigate---Isolate---Escalate. If you get a hard "no" then withdraw your time and attention for a period of time. Rinse...Repeat.

Importantly, withdrawing your time ONLY works if you have a positive affirming presence to withdraw. If you are only withdrawing your butthurt and pain then this tactic will destroy your marriage.

Build first, and then they will cum.

sexyshoulderdevil · 6時間前

Same story, different dude.

Therapy will be uneventful.

She's saying your shitty attitude makes you shitty to live with... And you have a shitty attitude because of what your shitty wife does. Viscous circle, eh?

Decouple that shit.

Start being fucking happy and working on you, man. Stop giving a shit about her. Get to working out and start being a playful, masculine man. At that point she will simply have no choice but to be attracted to you. You'll be fucking irresistible.

Get to reading and internalizing what this place is truly about. Your story is a million other mens' story. Your wife will mirror you. Be fun and be happy. She will magically start doing the same.

thelotusknyte · 5時間前

Therapy is useless. Even if it were supposedly for her, it would turn around to being about you. And even if it doesn't, it still won't help.

You sound like a Nice Guy. Go read No More Mr. Nice Guy.

You need to develop outcome independence and learn to maintain frame.

It sounds like she's not that fun to be around anyway. So who gives a fuck. You do you. Find some hobbies. This is one of the most overlooked things for men in marriages because all our time is sucked up by work and kids and wife. It's good to do those things. But imagine if your wife went into the bedroom and said she needed a break from the kids and you complained about it, she'd flip.

Think about the things you want to do. It may take you some time to figure it out, but don't be slow. Then just go do it. If she birches, don't reward the bad behavior by allowing yourself to be drawn into an argument.

Once you have activities that call your time other than sex with her, it'll be much easier to have outcome independence when she denies and much easier to maintain frame cuz you can just go do whatever else you like to do.

killingblueme · 5時間前

If she has medical issues that seem beyond the reach of medical science, if her period DOES actually last for weeks but no Dr can give you any remotely reasonable explanation, if she has labs that come back borderline or highly varying, then her problems aren't physical, they are mental. I speak from experience.

I am NOT saying she is faking it somehow or is lying about something. She has real physical problems and ailments rooted in physical systems, but the reason the Dr's can't find anything is probably because the root cause is mental anguish/emotional damage/baggage, not physical.

My wife was sick for a decade, almost bedridden for 3 or 4 years towards the end of that period. She developed thyroid and adrenal issues, all kinds of weird food allergies that actually showed up on some lab tests but they were kind of a strange constellation of foods that were not related to each other.

And then a friend of hers gave her a book called The Divided Mind...I don't necessarily recommend it (not that great, there are a lot of things written about this). What it said, however, is that hidden emotions can and do cause physical symptoms including endocrine issues. The unconscious mind decides it needs to hide something from you to protect you and does everything it can to keep it hidden, including causing a distracting disease. This type of problem is particularly bad with women, and two counselor friends of mine says things start to sour for these women between 35yo and 45yo or so. Your wife is a little early...but I think some of the reason it waits so long is that Nice Guy husbands put up with a lot of sh*t and postpone the inevitable.

6 months after reading the book and finding a few childhood "issues" to deal with and getting some counseling, my wife eats everything again and is much more functional...not 100% but closer. Sex life is still broken, but a lot of that is on me (Nice Guy, need to get back in shape, etc).

Your wife says:

Sex isn't affection (which means she doesn't have to give it to you)
My parents don't have sex (which means she doesn't have to give it to you)
You are negative (which means she doesn't have to give it to you)

These are all avoidance excuses, reasons in her mind that she does not have to have sex or be intimate with you. Note that she doesn't say "I am sick", she is making up OTHER excuses to not have sex/be intimate, each one tries to make it your fault and then she works really really hard to make sure she doesn't have to deal with you (all the ignoring, etc).

This sounds WAY to familiar to me. If I were a betting man, I would give good odds that she has something buried in there....it might be as simple as a fear of being intimate with someone, her residual religious guilt or as bad as some past emotional/physical/sexual abuse. Can't tell, but she is burying that emotional garbage and you are enabling her to do so. As long as she is avoiding it, it rots and she is stuck. And here is the kicker: until SHE decides to "see" the problems on her own, nothing you do or say will prevent her unconscious mind from hiding her internal truths.

And she may never see them if you make it too easy to avoid them. You are back at square one and a key RP truth: you can only change you. If there is no physical root cause, she probably needs counseling. Oh well. YOUR counseling starts here: read NMMNG. Start with that and then work your way through the sidebar, but until you can see how being the Nice Guy is NOT going to work here, YOU are stuck.

This may or may not apply to you, I am not a psychologist, YMMV, etc. None of the above changes or modifies any of the advice you are receiving/will receive here. Use your best judgement but don't use what I have said here as an excuse to NOT become the best man you can become. If she seeks medical help and finds nothing and she refuses to get counseling to see if there is anything buried there, AND if you pursue the advice here and really internalize it and that does not change anything either, then you have a decision to make....

EDIT: And if she is just straight up lying about her period, I would see the lawyer and prep....that is beyond "buried emotions"

SexistFlyingPig · 3時間前

From the list of what you have said so far, it sounds like you are in a horrible marriage. If it were me, I would get divorced immediately.

Really. You've described the horror that men feel after having been married for 30 years to a person with whom they share a deep, meaningful hatred.

You are 30 and in shape with a job? There are a MILLION single women out there who desperately want to meet you and get married and have lots and lots of sex and kids. For you to do this you probably should get divorced first.

il-est-ressuscite · 5時間前

Sweet, kind, humble, stoic? It sounds to me more like you've got Stockholm Syndrome.

I hope that, if nothing else, just the act of typing this out clarified for you how terribly, intensely wrong your living situation is and that the beating you are going to get will motivate you to take some action.

theultmatecad · 5時間前

This one sounds too far gone and not worth saving.

Learn to be a man at TRP and start over with new women who dont have broken pussys

Boesman12 · 4時間前

There is nothing to add to the advice you have gotten so far, but I have to tell you to keep quiet about all of this. Don't go home tonight and say to her that you are going to improve yourself and she needs to suck your cock.

Implement the advice given here but YOU DON'T TALK TO HER ABOUT ANYTHING. NOT YOUR NEEDS, OR YOUR FRUSTRATIONS. ABSOLUTELY NOT A FUCKING THING.

Until you have read at least the sidebar books and you know more about what MRP is about.

CptButtertits · 3時間前

Focus. First. On. Yourself.

I feel like every man has a fictional character or real life hero they admire. Ask yourself what would they do. What would James Bond do in your situation or John Wayne do. While they probably wouldn't have ended up in your situation do you think they would go to counciling?

That essentially screams that you have already lost the war. What will talking about things do. From what it sounds like you have already talked about your issues enough. You need action.

Now you know what her problems with the marriage are. If you are willing to keep the marriage then you must be willing to swallow your pride and at least make an attempt to salvage it. Even if it doesn't work you can live with yourself right?

You mentioned that you are a happy go lucky guy but she brings you down. Why are you letting her mood affect you. She wants to waste her life and sleep let her, don't let it bother you. It probably isn't that you do shit just without a"big silly grin on your face" rather than the fact that you are visibly sulking like a teenager whose mom just told him to clean his room. You may be doing what you she wants you to do/what you need to do but she might she/feel like you are making her be your mom.

Who cares about a five year old love letter her feelings have changed for you because you both have changed. You are no longer the young couple fucking like rabbits and you taking her on dates to impress her. You have both settled and gotten lazy.

Just realize that she finds shopping online and Facebook more interesting than you. Read that again She finds Facebook more interesting than you... Get pissed start taking her out again and treating her like you did when you were dfirst dating and if that doesn't work well at least it is good practice for the next one.

Good luck

ParadoxThatDrivesUs · 3時間前

What's the reason for staying in this relationship? It sounds like a horror show.

nodoxsavefreespeech · 1時間前

From what I bothered to read it sounds like your wife makes a fuck - ton of excuses for her shitty behavior.

royal_fucktard · 39分前

She's taken the power away from you. Wives become turned off when husbands complain about them not having sex. They then start to withhold it on purpose, and use it as power over you.

In No More Mr. Nice Guy this tactic is easily defeated by communicating to her that you don't want to have sex with her for at least 6 months. Then, plan on taking the next 6 months to do whatever you need/want to do (hobbies, etc) to focus on you and improving your life (not hers).

Eventually, you will be acting different around her because you know that you aren't going to fuck her because you're too busy working on making yourself happy with other things. At the same time, she's not on the edge wondering if she's going to have to reject you again. This will shift the power back to you and it is then when you will see the relationship stabilize.

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