全 34 件のコメント

[–]WhiskeySeven [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Ok, I'll bite.

Caveat: I'm western as hell, and not a typical reddit-liberal.

As a conservative American with a great deal of knowledge about world affairs, it is high time that Iran be balkanized into ethnic nation-states. I'll present my argument in as logical a way as possible.

If you knew about world affairs you'd realize that balkanization is a negative/antagonistic term. Strike 1.

1) The Iranian people are not a single ethnicity. They are a tribal culture much like their Arab cousins but within this culture, there are several distinct ethnic groups. There are Azerbaijanis, dislocated from their ethnic brothers to the north. There are Arabs in the south, there are Baluchis in the east, there are Kurds, and there are Persians. There are also Turkmen, who are cut off from their brothers across the border in Turkmenistan.

Ethnicity and identity in Iran, and indeed the East, operates and functions differently than it does in the post-nation state Western. You are extremely inaccurate already but doubly so when you claim that Arabs are our cousins (!) or that the insignificant number of Turkmens, Balochis, Kurds and Arabs (who are EXTREMELY Persianized) have any irredentist claim whatsoever (!!).

Migrants in a new country don't suddenly get any claim to cut out part of their new country... or else the ~1% of Americans who are Indian American should get their own exclave and call it New India, right? What about the millions upon millions of Mexicans in the southwest, whose land was actually previously Mexican? And what of the millions of Cubans in Florida? It's utter nonsense and entirely hegemonic to claim that Iranian minorities or migrants have any claim to any land of their own. Iran has had an aggressive war for territory in over a century, furthermore the areas it had influence over (these so-called Balochi, Turkamen, etc. areas) have been under its sphere of influence, both directly and indirectly, for centuries.

You're not a conservative, you're a warhawk with an orientalist bias that is so strong you don't even respect the self-determination of other peoples who have nothing to do with you. I'm conservative about some issues - but casually drawing borders is a bully, neo-colonial, orientalist, paternal, greasy, awful kind of approach to foreign policy. In fact this very preemptive regime change rhetoric came to define George W Bush's presidency, they call it the Bush Doctrine, and it was an abject failure.

2) Europe was divided along ethnoreligious lines and has finally found peace. The problem in the Middle East is that there are no nation-states with solid identities. Instead, you have crudely and ignorantly drawn borders where central governments rule with an iron fist over many groups, setting each against each other and promoting hatred. For an example of what happens when that central government fails, look at Syria.

The middle east has never, ever had democracy. Yet again: the East and West are different. Down to the way people breathe and think and eat and even sleep. Enlightenment values are a Western phenomenon. The French Revolution and the idea of nation states and constitutional anythings are NOT Eastern. Stop.

And America's democracy is on the brink of turning into a bigger farce than it already is. Forget the obvious lobbying, cheating, tax evasion, massive subsidies to select companies, neo-aristocratic division of wealth... Donald Trump is the popular candidate for millions of Americans (!) and the political party he's a part of is directly trying to subvert him, against their own constituent's wishes (!!).

You also have dying empires like Iran, who are one insurrection and overthrow away from an ethnic war.

What's dying about Iran? One of the biggest economies in the region. I have many, many criticisms about the nation and government but to call it "a dying empire" both implies imperial ambitions which Iran clearly haven't indicated and decay, which despite their own best(worst) efforts, they haven't fallen whatsoever. Strike 2.

Continued.

[–]WhiskeySeven [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

3) Iran's central government is weak. It is not, contrary to what people think, a fearsome and organized regime. It's a hapless mob of pseudoreligious corrupt tyrants ruling over everyone with an imposed form of Islam, itself a problematic religion and ideology, over multiple ethnic groups. Shi'a Islam is forced down everyone's throats, a welfare class is created of families of revolutionaries and war martyrs, and the government is constantly at war with itself. And when Shi'ism isn't forced down people's throats, it's Persian supremacy.

I agree that the central government is not a ubiquitous, omnipresent force. Why should it be any less feared? Monsters run the country, just because they're inefficient it doesn't de-fang them.

90% of Iran is Shia - it's the state religion. I have problems with it, but to claim that Iran is forced to be Shia is an abject lie. Yet again, look at your own country. In God We Trust, One Nation Under God, and so on.

Iran is a Persian country, with Persian culture dating back much, much longer than America has even been a concept. Every country bordering Iran has been influenced heavily by Persian culture. Much like it'd be absurd to say that "American supremacy is forced down Honduras' throat" just because they wear blue jeans and drive cars.

And the welfare class jibe is quite inaccurate as well. Veterans and their families are remunerated and given pensions. My grandfather collects his pension to this day. How are America's vets doing? Fucking awful, that's how. America's poor, veteran or otherwise, are destitute - no different than Iran's poor or any other country's poor. The rich don't care for the poor, welcome to planet earth.

I don't like constantly comparing Iran with America but since you are American and you espouse a classical neo-conservative hawkish rhetoric, I might as well.

4) The Arabs, Baluchis, Kurds and Azeris are oppressed. Every day you hear about a new young Kurd or Arab hung by the government. The Iranian government conducts ethnic killing of Sunni Kurds on a daily basis. Baluchistan and the Kurdish regions are systematically overlooked by the government to ensure their poverty. No languages other than Persian and Arabic are allowed. Azeris want freedom and to join their Turkish brothers to the north, because they cannot exercise their right to be a separate and autonomous group, unrelated to Persians. The Arabs in the southern regions are some of the most oppressed people on earth, and many sided with Saddam when he invaded them.

Persians are oppressed too. Because the government doesn't care about ethnicity because Iranians as a whole DO NOT VIEW ETHNICITY IN A EURO-CENTRIC WAY.

No government willingly gives up its own lands. Not even America. Balochistan and Zahedan are destitute regions, they wouldn't survive on their own to begin with. What Iran has done (or not done) to that region is negligent but it's still Iranian land. Much like south side chicago has a higher murder rate than fucking Iraq but it is still in Illinois.

Azeri Torks are their own ethnic group, yes, but they're Iranian and have been Iranian for centuries. Maybe even longer than America was a god damn country.

You need to prove that people are oppressed on ethnic grounds, you can't just consistently claim it. Prove it. Provide sources.

5) Iran as it is, is too threatening to US, EU, Israeli and Russian interests. Iran has too large of a coastline with the vital Persian Gulf and can muster itself to close the Strait of Hormuz. It also has access to East Asia and Europe, and faces the Caspian Sea and Indian Ocean. Its potential for power projection is huge. Iran's people are PROUD and stubborn, and a simple regime change isn't going to resolve the problem. For us in the rest of the world to have flowing oil and get to our jobs, a country as big and powerful as Iran cannot exist with such leverage over global energy.

Iran doesn't give a shit if the western hegemony doesn't like it. That's the point of being a belligerent nation. It obviously has its own interests, which is surprisingly enough to some racist, orientalist, blinders-on dinosaurs like you.

At least you called the Persian Gulf by its rightful name, though.

6) Finally, even after the JCPOA, there is NOTHING stopping Iran from pursuing nuclear weaponry after the alloted 10-15 years. Once Iran gets that deterrent capability, it becomes hegemon of the Middle East vis-a-vis Israel. That means Iran sets the terms of the region. That means arms race. That means radical regimes in a volatile region with a violent religion get weapons of mass destruction. It is a worst outcome scenario. A divided and weak Iran will never muster the human capital and resources needed to pursue a nuclear arsenal, and it MUST be kept that way for the good of the world, not just the West.

They're allowed to pursue anything they want. They're a god damn nation. If they end up rewriting the future as-planned-by-Karl-Rove then so be it. They have their own interests and objectives, the US is not and cannot and will not and will never be the global executive of every nation-state. Saudi Arabia has been buying billions of arms in recent years, there hasn't been an arms race despite their inherent cracks and massive potential for unrest.

Think Tank cocksuckers from Princeton boys clubs have their intentions, but they live in a bubble and are paid for by foreign interests as well. The world is different, travel a bit. Strike 3.

I'd give it a couple decades. I believe the Kurds will break away first, and then a civil war will ensue as the people overthrow the Iranian regime. Perhaps 10 years of internal war and there would be a multinational effort to cease hostilities, and borders will be redrawn. In the end, it would allow for a much more stable Middle East.

The Kurds are butchers who killed Assyrians too. The Kurds can try to break off but Iran would suppress it, much like any government would suppress that sort of insurrection.

The middle east will be stable if the west stopped propping up the bad guys every single time. From the Bin Ladens to the Baathists to the Sauds. Every single time the US has been wrong. Just give it a break for once.

I'd like opinions.

You're a moron and the ideas and arguments you've espoused are outdated. Not a moron in the regular reddit-insult way, but in the sense that you regurgitate trite, contrived and utterly fraudulent talking points. It's the sign of a weak mind... with no understanding or insight, or critical thinking applied.

[–]ArtTheSeaTheEye5 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I have nothing to add other than the fact that holy shit you just rekt that guy

[–]decipherwtf [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Don't pretend like you give a shit about ethnic groups in Iran. Ethnic groups in Iran get along just fine. You want weak divided states unable to stand up for their own interests. So you can loot murder and rape them.

Well guess what. You aren't the first enemy of Iran to utter and act on divisive ideas to weaken Iran. Your odds aren't looking too good.

I am looking forward to the day that California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas go back to their rightful Mexican owners. Keep them Mexicans coming back to their lands! I smile every time I see angry Trump supporters bitching about the Mexicans! Mexican shall take back what was stolen from them.

European states that colonized and looted many nations throughout history should see massive demographics changes with the incoming waves of the victims of hundreds of years of European imperialism. The face of Europe shall change. Europe rightfully belongs to the downtrodden colonized victims of the inhabitants of Europe!

[–]sharghzadeh 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

Very few Iranians want Iran to be divided into more countries. There are plenty of countries with great diversity that function well.

[–]jackphallus[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (8子コメント)

That's not what research indicates. Maybe not Iranians in Tehran, but Iran is a lot more than Tehran. Inevitably, the current re-drawing of borders and the emergence of Kurdistan will eventually reach Iran. The dominoes are falling.

[–]Aidinejad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hey, instead of trying to solve Irans problems, why don't you fix your own country? You should advocate for secession for blacks, repulicans, and Texans, because it seems to me that these people don't want to live with the rest of the population, and I have plenty of research to support these claims.

[–]sharghzadeh 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's not what research indicates.

Lets see it

[–]jackphallus[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

[–]sharghzadeh [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I get that the Turks and Kurds have wanted independence for a while. Wanting and actually doing the work to get it are two different stories. Most Iranians are so under stress from the economy that they are worried about affording meat than forming an independent government.

[–]lingben [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Most Iranians are so under stress from the economy that they are worried about affording meat

and that's exactly the way the akhoonds like it because when people aren't hungry and scrambling around for scraps thrown from the mullahs just to survive they have too much time on their hands to think about frivolous things like freedom, democracy, their children's future, etc.

[–]WhiskeySeven [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Rubincenter

Nice source you got there. Neo-con, AIPAC warhawks arguing for the dismantling of a belligerent nation - what a surprise!

[–]KangNSheid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A few azeris want more autonomy

Oy vey that clearly means Iran needs to be broken up, right?

By that logic, we should break up the U.S., Spain, the UK, and Turkey, right?

The correct answer is not to remove these people, it's to focus on integrating them more.

[–]twin_22 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So your argument is, Iran should mutilate itself - so that the current worldpowers can go on and rule the world not to be annoyed?

Yeah I mean from a Western POV that would be pretty great . I would recommend posting the same to /r/Russia and /r/China.

And you try and make your point by some analogy to Europe that completely disregards the cultural bounds and ties between the different ethnicities and just focusses on the differences. Norooz pirooz.

[–]ayatoilet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Actually, the outcome will be the exact reverse. Iran has defacto enlarged - significantly. Iraq is defacto under Iranian influence (that includes Iraqi Kurds), Afghanistan is defacto under Iranian influence. I could go on and on. Look at vital statistics like trade, human movements, etc. and Iran is by far the largest factor in the region and growing. I too fear the splintering of Iran, which is clearly what many enemies of Iran wish for Iran, BUT, the trend has been the exact reverse. While there is clearly and effort to foment separatism inside Iran, it patently has not worked so far, and I am not sure how it could be expanded from its current base? If anything, the Kurds have migrated towards Iranian support in their war inside Turkey, and war against ISIS ... Iran has been the savior...arming them, supporting them, feeding them etc. etc. I just don't see it. This blog is wishful thinking, and the trends just don't support it. There aren't truck bombs going off in Tehran by Kurdish separatists - while that is for sure going in inside Turkey almost daily now. Right now Turkey is far more vulnerable than Iran my friend. Saudi Arabia is far more vulnerable than Iran (with not one, but three war fronts against separatists Shiites, Hoothis, and ISIS). The facts just don't support your vision. Iran is rising, Iran is becoming more influential, and ultimately, Iran will lead the region to create a large economic and political union like the EU or AU ... with Iran at its epicenter (like Germany in Europe). One more consideration, I think the UK and US - are more at risk of splintering than the Iran. There was a Scottish referendum last year in the U.K; and there is a huge Hispanic underclass facing mass deportation and xenophobia in the U.S. which is a massive national security risk for the U.S. if the hatred continues - god knows how they might respond! Before you wish Iran's break up, there are some serious issues right here at home that you need to work on and think about first. Iranians do NOT wish U.S. to be splintered, or UK to be splintered ... they are not U.S. enemies, have never attacked the U.S., nor undermined the U.S. government, nor toppled democratically elected presidents in the U.S. nor precipitated a war between U.S. and Mexico, nor stolen American oil and gas, nor precipitated a massive Opium and Heroin epidemic inside the U.S. .... Iranians have never harmed the U.S. - so why should you wish Iran's demise... instead of friendship? Oh, I'm sorry, its not the U.S. you care about - its Israel. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Once again, Israel's interests are trumping American interests!? Oh, I'm sorry, 7 million Israelis should dictate the fate of 7 billion people around the world, as well as American Interests, Iranian Interests... I should have known... where you were coming from.... like all Israelis you feel you are more important, more valuable, more chosen than all other human beings.

[–]ayatoilet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I should have mentioned one more point, and that is that all of Iran's minorities are actually different tribes of all PERSIAN ethnicity. It shows blatant ignorance to pressure separatism on Iran, and poorly intended bad faith towards Iran and Iranians. The Kurds for example speak Kurdish, which actually is a variant of Farsi. Almost 95% of their language involves Persian words. I could go on and on - even in discussing fundamentals about Azeris, Baluchis, Turkmen etc. Then there is cultural commonality like cuisine, calendar ...etc etc. THEY ALL CELEBRATE NORUZ. Go to Azerbaijan, and even Turkmenistan or Tajikestan or Afghanistan - they all celebrate noruz. Happy noruz - by the way. they all eat Kebabs. They all revere Persian poets - who by the way were born in places like Baku (Azerbaijan, Nezami), or Samarkand (Uzbekistan, Rumi) etc. etc. I mean they are all supposed to splinter off to becoming "more Persian"! The problem is idiotic, ignorant bad faith from people like you - who all they want is the demise of Iran and Iranians - when in fact Iranians have never done anything to hurt them! Its blatant indecency.

[–]boziud [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The only way for world peace is for the US to be split up like the USSR. Its either that or nuclear annihilation of humanity. The US has no unified culture, and religious and ethnic tensions between the blacks, hispanics, whites, evangelicals, and Jews are literally leading to violence on the streets. Its central government is weak, and moderates are not doing enough to counter radicals. There is no other solution, Rome must fall.

[–]Smashbox1991 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

As a Persian and Pan-Persian nationalist I agree and disgaree with some of the things you said op. I do think the azeris and kurds should be given their own land, but only on our own terms as we Persians hold more power and militarily we are stronger. I believe any non Persian who considers himself a Persian should be considered as such and allowed to stay with us, the rest who dont want to will be given land depending on how many voted for separation e.g.. if 20% of azeris want to seperate we give them a small part of azerbeyjan and kick all of them out.

Furthermore, ethnic Persian nationalism concerning ethnic Persians in Tajikestan, Afghanistan, north azerbeyjan (Tat Persians) and the Persian gulf should also grant us land in return. We either take it by force directly or fund and arm ethnic Persian separatists.

In conclusion you are absolutely right that homogeneous nations work much much better and multi ethnic states separate at some point, thats just how humans are, as we are tribal by nature. This is also why I believe you americans are absolutely screwed and your country will probably be split into dozens of pieces along ethnic, racial and political lines.

[–]KangNSheid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Pan-Persian

Fuck that, Iran never became strong by limiting itself like that. And the notion that ethnicity=language is retarded. Azeris speaking a turkish language doesn't make them not Iranian, especially when their ancestors prior to the Seljuk invasions all spoke Iranian languages. Same with the Kurds, who are again, ancestrally Iranian.

Ethnicity should be based on ancestry and history, not language.

[–]Smashbox1991 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Youre most likely not ethnically Persian yourself if youre against the idea of Persian unity across borders, maybe because you think it would exclude you?

Iranian isnt an ethnicity, it doesnt really mean anything, much like american identity doesnt mean much. Its not one specific language, culture, history or identity, but a bastardized notion. Its just citizenship that you can acquire if you have an Iranian father, thats all.

The Persian empires got screwed in the ass every single time due to other ethnicities backstabbing ethnic Persians or cause they welcomed the invaders. How do you think alexander conquered non Persian populated lands of the Persian empire so easily? Egyptians, anatolians, babylonians etc.. didnt really put up much of a fight but welcomed alexander and the macedonians.

Another great example is when the parthian clans refused to fight the arabs leaving the Sassanid Persians on their own against the unified arab invaders. I have shit ton of examples more concerning Iran if you want.

In conclusion, divided countries and multiethnic countries where people have loads of different identities and languages dont last long, so our options are either to Persianize these ethnic minorities, linguistically and ethnically, or separate ourselves and claim most parts of Iran before they organize and do.

Even in the first world multi ethnic states are having trouble keeping united e.g.. Quebec, flanders, catalonia, basque, scotland, ireland etc... Please read some history. Division never makes people strong, specifically ethnic diversity.

[–]LongArmedKing [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We are all sitting here in Iran just waiting for an eagle named free market capitalism draped in a flag of United States to drop a copy of the World Constitution (otherwise known as the U.S constitution) on our lap. The second amendment will be written in the blood of patriots and all other parts neglected and conveniently faded.

Others have already answered you so I just want to make a small point:

Unfortunately the egotism of the American neo-cons much like their hardline Basiji Iranian counterparts knows no bounds. It's actually a common mistake that by being "westernised' people are only talking about the States. Most often Iranians who want change in Iran are thinking about Europe, specially Germany, UK or are even watching eastern models like Japan and Korea for progress (gasp!). Majority are not looking for an American model as and ideal to strive for.

[–]kourosh123 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

LOL, riots in his own country over who will be the Republican presidential candidate, a divorce rate of 50%+, obesity and depression through the roof....and he wants to fix Iran

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLL, stupid burgers

[–]Lucifer_L [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As a conservative American with a great deal of knowledge about world affairs

Sounds legit!

[–]slimyaltoid [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Fine but we're taking Los Angeles with us.