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Royal RumbleIs anti-zionism anti-semitism? Should Israel be a Jewish state? /r/Israel debates (self.SubredditDrama)

PhysicsIsMyMistress が 投稿

https://np.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/4arjed/uc_proposal_on_intolerance_says_antizionism_is/d134bk6?context=1

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[–]zxcv1992 7ポイント8ポイント  (21子コメント)

I can't blame Israelis for wanting a Jewish state, after spending hundreds of years being a minority in various places and taking a kicking whenever the majority was in a shitty mood it would be nice to have a place where you are the majority and don't have to worry about such things.

[–]mompants69 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I can blame them for their treatment of Palestinians, though.

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sure, there are major issues with the treatment of Palestinians.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

You can't officially be a liberal democracy and an ethnic state at the same time. By definition, liberal democracies are not legally an ethnic state.

[–]zxcv1992 5ポイント6ポイント  (16子コメント)

Well then I guess they aren't a liberal democracy then, but I dunno what difference that makes to anything I said.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

I guess it doesn't.

However, as a minority within my own country, I'm not particularly impressed with the argument that previous mistreatment should allow for disenfranchisement of other minorities once the mistreated minority becomes the majority.

[–]zxcv1992 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well I wouldn't say that Israel should remove all none Jewish citizens right to vote, reside or generally have a good life. I just understand them wanting to have a homeland for Jewish people due to massive historical and current mistreatment in areas that they are a minority.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Having a Jewish homeland and being a Jewish state are two different things. The latter is a legal designation that effectively treats non-jews as second class citizens within the eyes of the state, even if law itself doesn't change.

[–]zxcv1992 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well I would say that ideally the state should be secularized, but would still be a homeland for Jewish people just because I understand their fear of ever becoming a minority again.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Correct, the point I'm making is that the legal designation of Jewish state is not the same as just having a homeland for jews.

[–]zxcv1992 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair does, it's a bit confusing because Jewish is treated as both a religion and a ethnicity. I agree with the state being a homeland for Jewish people but I wouldn't agree with it becoming a Jewish theocracy or something along those lines.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Correct, the point I'm making is that the legal designation of Jewish state is not the same as just having a homeland for jews.

[–]HokutoNoChen [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

should allow for disenfranchisement of other minorities once the mistreated minority becomes the majority.

disenfranchisement

I don't think that word means what you think it does. AT ALL. Either you pulled that out of your thesaurus or are incredibly ignorant about Israel. For the record, disenfranchisement means revoking or preventing people from voting. To suggest that minority groups in Israel can't vote is pretty much blasphemous and factually incorrect. If you're an Israeli citizen, you vote. If you do not have a citizenship, you do not vote. Like every other country on Earth.

As the guy you're talking to said, Jews cannot afford to be a minority in Israel, and therefore its 'identity' and majority should remain Jewish. If there is a minority group that cannot "deal" with being a minority in a Jewish state, then that minority needs to either find another place to live in, or needs to HAVE such a place be made for them as is the case of the Palestinians. [Two state solution]

Also, to answer the question in the title, the answer is a resounding no. Zionism is defined as the establishment of a Jewish state and its protection - in Israel. This is the dictionary definition, I don't wanna get into the deformed version that Muslims have made that word to be so they could say they hate Jews/Israel without sounding like loons.

If you're anti-zionist it means you're against the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel. Whether it means you think Jews shouldn't have their own country, or that you think it should not be in Israel, you're anti-zionist. Anti-semitism is simply the hatred of Jews as an ethnic group, wherever they may be.

Two different words, both are pretty ugly and not at all flattering to identify as.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I guess you forgot how Netanyahu and his party were trying to stop Arabs from voting in the last election and even accused America of funding efforts to get Arabs to vote.

If you're anti-zionist it means you're against the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel.

Yeah, I'd say I'm against the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel. I'm for the establishment of the state of Israel, however. I don't see being against a Jewish state as any worse than being against an English state or an Hutu State or any other ethnic state.

[–]HokutoNoChen [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I guess you forgot how Netanyahu and his party were trying to stop Arabs from voting in the last election and even accused America of funding efforts to get Arabs to vote.

He never attempted to "stop" anyone. He did however urge Jewish voters out to vote using Arab votes as a fear factor. I also think there's a HUGE gap between a political candidate "attempting to stop votes" and between saying that the majority of Israel is causing is disenfranchisement to minorities.

It's a manipulative, emotional appeal attempt - and absolutely dishonest way to present facts.

I'm for the establishment of the state of Israel, however. I don't see being against a Jewish state as any worse than being against a white state or a black state.

Meh, this is just absolute detachment from reality. Jews have no other state to call their own, and with a history that they [we] have of being persecuted it's pretty much an unthinkable situation. Like it or not, Jews need a safe haven in the world.

Being against a Jewish state is the equivalent of throwing Jews to the dogs, whether it's now or in 50, 200 or even a thousand years into the future - and this is why it's mostly non-Jews supporting that ridiculous position.

Maybe if Europe didn't attempt to exterminate the Jews we wouldn't need this. Maybe if the Middle East didn't expel all of its Jews we wouldn't need this. But they did, and that's why it's needed. Being against Israel's Jewish identity usually stems from two things - liberal naivety or a sincere desire to ruin or lack of caring for what happens to its Jewish residents down the line.

To put it bluntly, we all know what will happen if Israel becomes a non-Jewish state and inevitability becomes a Muslim majority, and it won't be pretty.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

This is absolutely ridiculous. First off, discouraging an ethnic group from voting is a form of disenfranchisement. The goal was voter intimidation; to intimidate Arab voters to stay home or face implied retribution. This has happened here in the US before to minority voters.

Meh, this is just absolute detachment from reality. Jews have no other state to call their own, and with a history that they [we] have of being persecuted it's pretty much an unthinkable situation. Like it or not, Jews need a safe haven in the world.

Jews can have a 'safe haven'...in countries that are liberal democracies and not ethnic states.

Maybe if Europe didn't attempt to exterminate the Jews we wouldn't need this. Maybe if the Middle East didn't expel all of its Jews we wouldn't need this. But they did, and that's why it's needed. Being against Israel's Jewish identity usually stems from two things - liberal naivety or a sincere desire to ruin or lack of caring for what happens to its Jewish residents down the line.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Jews aren't the only people to face persecution. It's absolutely not okay for them to get special treatment and given an ethnic state. Being persecuted is sad, but Christians in Pakistan (like my family) don't get an ethnoreligious state just because of persecution. No special treatement, regardless of what happened in the past.

To put it bluntly, we all know what will happen if Israel becomes a non-Jewish state and inevitability becomes a Muslim majority, and it won't be pretty.

Oh please, don't bring your fearmongering speculation into this.

[–]HokutoNoChen [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

This is absolutely ridiculous. First off, discouraging an ethnic group from voting is a form of disenfranchisement. The goal was voter intimidation; to intimidate Arab voters to stay home or face implied retribution. This has happened here in the US before to minority voters.

No, your manipulation of events and words is what's ridiculous here. You can't say that because a political candidate is making certain voters "uneasy" [a subjective thing in itself] that suddenly "Israel" and "the majority" [Your EXACT words] are disenfranchising the minorities.

You know damn well you manipulated the words hard to fit your narrative and if you had a shred of decency in you you'd at least admit that.

Jews can have a 'safe haven'...in countries that are liberal democracies and not ethnic states.

Yeah, until those countries stop being liberal democracies. Until the people in them suddenly elect a leader who doesn't want your Jewy ass on his lawn, and suddenly the country ain't so democratic anymore, and you can sit there reflecting on your glorious ex-democratic country on the train on the way to the camps.

Also, the idea that "liberal democracies" are some be all, end all safe haven is an absolute joke... what's in a democracy anyway? A majority rule? What if the majority doesn't like you? What about a "liberal democratic" Muslim majority country? Would Jews be safe there? Who are we kidding again, they are barely any safe in France, they're escaping that country in DROVES and it's one of the most progressive democracies in the world, and Muslims aren't even close to being a majority yet.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Jews aren't the only people to face persecution. It's absolutely not okay for them to get special treatment and given an ethnic state. Being persecuted is sad, but Christians in Pakistan (like my family) don't get an ethnoreligious state just because of persecution. No special treatement, regardless of what happened in the past.

Except if you identify as a Christian primarily and face persecution for that, there's a couple DOZENS country that would take you in where you will be with a Christian majority. What about Jews? No country out there where Jews are a majority as a religion [or as an ethnicity]. Jews need their own majority state to be safe at, whether it's the religious or ethnic aspect of it, end of story.

Oh please, don't bring your fearmongering speculation into this.

Oh I'm sorry, I did not realize history, RECENT history was "fearmongering speculation".

Edit: Also, downvoting people you're arguing with is incredibly poor form and childish as fuck tbh. Learn to deal with retorts the proper way.

[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

So we've established two things here. You don't know what voter intimidation means and you don't know what a liberal democracy is.

Voter intimidation is an attempt to suppress people from voting through an implied threat. The threat from Netanyahu was that if Jews were angered enough, Arabs who went out to vote would be risking their safety by doing so.

A liberal democracy is not the same as a democracy. Liberal democracies are democracies where people's rights are enshrined and where majority rule cannot take away people rights. For example, in the US a majority of people can't vote for a minority to be enslaved, because that would be unconstitutional. Liberal democracies lie in contrast to illiberal democracies, like Russia or Turkey.

Please re evaulate my previous post with these well established political science concepts in mind. I am willing to provide external links to more information on these concepts when I get to a desktop, of you so desire.

[–]MelvillesMopeyDickSaltier than Moby Dick's semen 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's one of those not all fingers are thumbs deals. Not all people who oppose the state of Israel are anti-Semitic but...

[–]Lemonwizard [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Actually, I've met anti-Semites who support Israel because they hate Muslims even more than they hate Jews and they see Israel as the lesser evil. These people are a special brand of crazy.

[–]Another_Alex [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There's also the flavor of Christian who thinks Jews being in Israel is how the second coming will happen. I usually put them in the category of pro-Israel anti-Semites as well. I'm mostly aware of the US ones and I'm not a fan.

[–]93758283767236718678 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

Why are Palestinians so hated if Britain basically took their land and gave it to other people?

[–]HokutoNoChen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Being a victim does not make you a saint. It's one thing to be wronged, it's another thing to absolutely refuse to cooperate or make concessions, and waging barbaric, indiscriminate terrorism.

[This is without even getting into whether they were really wronged or not, and what is whose land and what exactly IS Palestine - let's assume for argument's sake that they were wronged]

[–]Kzickas 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are they so hated? My impression is that outside of the US the Palestinians have pretty consitently more support than Israel does.

[–]613codyrexDAE White Genocide 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly what I've seen is that it's somewhat 50-50 split.

You have different age groups that really cause the separation between them.

Or that's what I've seen in USA.

[–]bib_fortunas_agentButts, butts, I love butts. 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think Britain ever took Texas.

[–]zxcv1992 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's not quite what happened, most of the land taking happened after the British fucked off and left it up to the UN and the 1948 Arab-Israel war started, also the six day war too.

[–]waterswaters 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's just another way of describing how palestinians had their land taken? I don't see the point in the distinction you're making.

[–]zxcv1992 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well the important distinction is who was doing the taking.

[–]waterswaters 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It seems like the OP of this thread was asking why Palestinians are so hated when all theyve done is had their land taken, I think the fact it was the british is the least important part.

[–]zxcv1992 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the internet, if I see a mistake I'm going to be pedantic and correct it, it's my freedom as an internet user.

[–]stealthbadgerA mini vuvuzela of anger! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Classic rosinthebow discussion. End conversation by demanding a citation for an observation that I couldn't possibly have a citation for.

Then.... why did he make the "observation?" o.0

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