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[Interview] Why Seraph did deny Svenskeren's handshake. (self.leagueoflegends)

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[–]Yoshiji 80ポイント81ポイント  (67子コメント)

Honestly this behavior seems immature and out of place.

2 years since this incident, and Svenskeren learned the impact of his attitude the hard way by being publicly criticized, insulted, and failing Worlds due to that. He had more than enough time to deal with that and since then we didn't hear a single thing about racism from him.

"Warning sign" ? For what ? 2 years after the aftermath ? After all the other Koreans in the LCS still shook his hand for the sportsmanship ? How come Seraph is their "representative" ?

This attitude is giving a poor showing of the eastern community more than anything else.

Edit:

For those saying Seraph's attitude was fine in a professional setting, with this gesture he actually broke more than 4 rules.

  • 10.1.3 Disruptive Behavior / Insults. A Team Member may not take any action or perform any gesture directed at an opposing Team Member, fan, or official, or incite any other individual(s) to do the same, which is insulting, mocking, disruptive or antagonistic.
  • 10.1.4 Abusive Behavior. [..] Team Members and their guests (if any) must treat all individuals attending a match with respect.

10.2 Unprofessional Behavior

  • 10.2.1 Responsibility Under Code. Unless expressly stated otherwise, offenses and infringements of these Rules are punishable, whether or not they were committed intentionally. Attempts to commit such offenses or infringements are also punishable.
  • 10.2.2 Harassment. Harassment is forbidden. Harassment is defined as systematic, hostile and repeated acts taking place over a considerable period of time, or a singular egregious instance, which is/are intended to isolate or ostracize a person and/or affect the dignity of the person.

[–]landoindisguise 84ポイント85ポイント  (38子コメント)

Warning sign" ? For what ?

OP translated wrong. He said "symbolic gesture," not warning sign.

After all the other Koreans in the LCS still shook his hand for the sportsmanship ? How come Seraph is their "representative" ?

He's not. He's his own representative. It's not a hive mind. Koreans, like other humans, are individuals with their own thoughts and feelings!

[–]sirnorthcountry 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

10.1.3 Refusing to shake a persons hand is generally seen as neither insulting, mocking, disruptive or antagonistic. Could be as there is no precedent in a League case but in several other sports similar behaviour have not led to any consequences even though the various Leagues all have similar clauses in place.

10.1.4 This is entirely taken out of context "Abuse of LCS officials, opposing Team Members, or audience members will not be tolerated. Repeated etiquette violations, including but not limited to touching another player’s computer, body or property will result in penalties." You left this part out conventiently?

10.2.1 Merely states certain terms.

10.2.2 "Harassment is defined as systematic" as this is a 1-time offense I want to understand how you can possibly call it systematic.

As you can see he might have broken the first rule albeit highly unlikely considering prior precedent in other sports speaks against it. Of course if you know of a sports or even better esports case where someone have been penalized for refusing to shake hands with someone by the league or the organisation that was in charge of the event then I would gladly retract the part about 10.1.3.

[–]Yoshiji 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

10.1.3 Even when you perform it with 4 members but are clearly ignoring one specific member ? That's being antagonistic though, Seraph clearly ignored Sven among the entire team.

10.1.4 Context ? What does this "context" change to the " Team Members and their guests (if any) must treat all individuals attending a match with respect." full sentence ? Absolutely nothing, they still have to treat all individuals with respect. Furthermore, if I left out this part "conventiently", why would I notify it myself with "[..]" ? I was clearly stating there was another part but that wouldn't be required in this context.

10.2.1 States that attempts to commit acts that would break rules is punishable.

10.2.2 Maybe you left out conveniently "or a singular egregious instance, which is/are intended to isolate or ostracize a person and/or affect the dignity of the person." ?

[–]sirnorthcountry [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

10.1.3 As I said show me a sports precedent where they have taken action against this behaviour because it does occur fairly frequently. To take a popular example Luis Suarez (football player) ignored shaking hands with an opposing player (Patrice Evra) (and he shook the other 10 opposing players hands) over an ongoing dispute between the two. He never got penalized by Premier League which is the league he plays in.

10.1.4 The clause is about abuse and you can definetely argue that seraph have shown respect. Shaking hands is a minor part if it even means anything at all in the bigger picture.

10.2.1 Yes but it is not a rule he has broken merely a clause that states what you mentioned.

10.2.2 Do you know what egregious means? Glaring, Obvious instance and as this whole discussion is about whether it even is an offence that to me and to most would rule out that it is an egregious instance.

[–]freshwafflefries 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Show me a rule that says a player must shake hands with every opponent. A handshake is a sign of respect. Seraph doesn't respect Sven because of his past actions, so no handshake. He's not representing all of Asia. He made a personal decision to not shake. He was certainly not being disruptive, abusive or harrassing.

[–]Yoshiji -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Show me a rule that says a player must shake hands with every opponent. A handshake is a sign of respect. Seraph doesn't respect Sven because of his past actions, so no handshake

10.1.3 Disruptive Behavior / Insults. A Team Member may not take any action or perform any gesture directed at an opposing Team Member, fan, or official, or incite any other individual(s) to do the same, which is insulting, mocking, disruptive or antagonistic.

He ignored Sven among the other 4 members of TSM, Seraph broke the rule by being antagonistic.

Seraph doesn't respect Sven because of his past actions, so no handshake.

10.1.4 Abusive Behavior. [..] Team Members and their guests (if any) must treat all individuals attending a match with respect.

He's not representing all of Asia

Then it's personal, instead of him claiming "it's not personal".

[–]telelax [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If he so believes in his cause then he shouldn't mind getting fined for breaking the rules. Fine the kid and we will see how much of a sjw he really is.

[–]whigsplitta [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't know. As a business owner I am not hiring anyone that has a checkered past regardless of claims of "reform". It just isn't worth the risk. Likewise, if I find out after the fact you were engaged in behavior I find repulsive, I will find a legal way to get rid of you.

[–]mbr4life1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah no. In what way did he violate these rules? You have literally no idea what you are talking about.

[–]DNNYVST -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Riot needs to acknowledge these 4 rules.

[–]zomjay -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

The only one of those rules I think he broke was the harassment clause because his denial of a handshake was intended to shame Sven. Outside of that, he didn't take action to incite anything, and while he clearly didn't respect Sven it kind of comes down to whether or not denying a handshake as a symbolic gesture of discontent with Sven's past actions and the present actions of players on NA servers (inferred from his description of his treatment since he came over here) is a justifiable sign of disrespect.

If he hadn't commented on the situation, he could very easily get away with a poor sportsmanship fine it something, but he chose to comment and now it's crystal clear that he had well-meaning yet malicious intent. It seems his purpose was to bring to light the state of racism using Sven as a symbol because of his s4 issues, but it came across as a personal attack that will likely be punished as such.

[–]Yoshiji -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But he did perform a gesture to a specific opposing team member, which ended up being clearly antagonistic. It falls easily under the first rule.

I don't think that you can legitimately "excuse" the disrespect though. RIOT are requiring respect to be here, they're not asking for it nor finding excuses to avoid it. Sportsmanship is by definition respect between athletes and players, denying it just comes down to showing no respect to the other individual.

And then comes the responsability under code, wheter or not he did the interview and explained his thinking, it doesn't change the fact that he falls under this rule too.

Well-meaning / well intent / malicious intent or not, Seraph did break some rules for acting like this.

[–]cquinn5 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You honestly made this thread much worse with your point of view.

Suggesting that refusing a handshake broke rules is ludicrous. Nowhere in the rules does it say players must shake hands after the game.

Seraph does not respect Sven and will not show him any token of it. That's really the end of it, cut and dry. No inflammatory response really necessary, Sven certainly didn't take any

[–]Therasul -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eastern culture is a lot about honor and tradition. Dishonoring your own name like that will live with you for many years to come. That is how life is. Sure Sven might have changed since the incident but he must also deal with the problems cause by his actions.

[–]Yoshiji 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

And yet all koreans Svenskeren encountered until then still shook his hand by sportsmanship. He already got severely punished and is still being insulted nowadays, he has dealt with it.

No, here that's not about honor and tradition. That's about Seraph being an ass for no reason.

[–]slayzel 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup, but tell that to all the others in this thread that think Sven is an asshole and Seraph is doing a good deed of repelling racism.

[–]liptonreddit -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you know he learned shit. He might just have think this is bullshit, like every kids being banned and move on with it wihtout regretting a damn thing. Unless you are Svenskeren, you know nothing about what he learned(just like me). So don't start assuming stuff on your own.