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If we chucked ethics out the window, what scientific breakthroughs could we expect to see in the next 5-10 years? (self.AskReddit)

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[–]HueManatee43 1052ポイント1053ポイント  (167子コメント)

Yeah, and the Nazis made massive scientific breakthroughs.

[–]I_-_-_-_-_-_-_I 897ポイント898ポイント  (46子コメント)

iirc, especially with regard to a lot of the cold-exposure experiments, a lot of their data is considered invalid since they couldn't be arsed with proper scientific method.

(Probably because Nazi experimentation had more to do with genocide than science)

[–]sir_rob 167ポイント168ポイント  (8子コメント)

Another issue is that those who kept massive amounts of records and data destroyed them before the Russians and/or Allies came knocking. So basically while you could have said that people suffered in part for the advancement of science, they didn't as the data was unusable or destroyed.

[–]crookedoaths -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Paperclipped.

[–]sir_rob 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know that's right.

[–]Nuranon 463ポイント464ポイント  (22子コメント)

they actually did "good" research on low pressure environments and what they do to the body - really relevant for high altitude and space flight, we know where the Armstrong line is for a reason.

[–]Razvee 421ポイント422ポイント  (15子コメント)

the Armstrong line

PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS

[–]justchubb 68ポイント69ポイント  (6子コメント)

the FMA references in this thread are everywhere.

[–]Zerosion 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well, an overall plot point to the series was such ethics. Ed and Al's foolish attempt at human transmutation, the scientists insane experiment with humans, the Ishmalian(?) genocide etc.

Kinda makes sense.

[–]BaconMaster2 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's Ishbalan by the way.`

[–]Zerosion 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, I knew I was close but it didn't feel right.

[–]Vexxt 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ishvalan*

is considered the official translation, even if the japanese uses the b sound more prominently.

[–]BaconMaster2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, I didn't know that, thanks.

Guess I watched a bad sub.

[–]SanityNotFound 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would go as far as to say that the entire moral to the series is the consequences of unchecked ethics.

[–]Yuzumi 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

(flex)

[–]YourBiPolarBear 25ポイント26ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is like the 4th FMA:B reference I've seen in this thread so far. What a time to be alive.

[–]sniperFLO 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not for BGen Hughes.

[–]topCyder 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

NOOOOOOOOO

[–]Zenith042 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

too sooooooooon YOU HAVE AWAKENED ME TOO SOON, XECUTUS!

[–]ElBenito 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit, that's two separate FMA references in this thread.

[–]ICommentForUpvotes 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Two references in one thread... Not bad

[–]phroug2 40ポイント41ポイント  (0子コメント)

For those like me who had no idea what the Armstrong line is:

The Armstrong limit, often called Armstrong's line, is the altitude that produces an atmospheric pressure so low (0.0618 atmosphere or 6.3 kPa (47 mmHg)) that water boils at the normal temperature of the human body: 98.6 °F (37.0 °C).

[–]BlazingIce26 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

This scientific discovery has been passed down the Armstrong family line for generations!

[–]Triquetra4715 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

You could very easily discover the Armstrong line without involving people.

[–]GimmeSomeSugar 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

very easily

Even easier, when you use people whom you have dehumanised and then treated as disposable.

[–]Nuranon 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

How? I mean you could do the same with animals...but you learn more from doing it with humans - it was assumed that its impossible to reach the peak of Mt Everest without extra oxygen supply - until Reinhold Messner did it.

[–]Triquetra4715 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Armstrong line is the point at which pressure is low enough that water boils at the temperature of the human body. So I suppose you would need some humans to get an average temperature, but it's not like you need to see people boiling. Just put some water in a pressure chamber at person temperature and lower the pressure until water boils.

[–]Gravybone 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably more because appointment to head research positions had more to do with party loyalty than knowledge, skill and experience. Cronyism doesn't make for good science, ethical or not.

[–]haby112 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

This, and that they had very real political pressures to only arrive to very specific conclusions because racism (Jews and blacks had to be inferior to Arians, etc.) and that the humans they were given to treat on were mostly physically compromised, so conducting proper controls was not a thing.

[–]jdbatche 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

A nazi-derived anatomy textbook was/is considered a masterpiece and used in medical schools through the 90's. Has since come under attack as the human bodies depicted were likely nazi victims, but the book was considered the gold standard in anatomy for much of the 20th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Pernkopf

[–]Lionheart1387 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Genocience?

[–]suicidejunkie 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll take a side of science with my genocide, thank you!

[–]Angoose_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They also had some quite good epidemiological data, iirc they were the first to show a correlation between smoking and lung cancer but a lot of their data was disregarded in the aftermath of WW2.

[–]Canopenerdude 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They did good work with the Saturn rockets though

[–]Threeedaaawwwg -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They ended up with things like Tod Akin's "the female body has ways of shutting down."

[–]EatsDirtWithPassion -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The nazis had good data, you're thinking of the Japanese.

[–]Doktor_Wunderbar -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you have source? My understanding was that the cold-exposure stuff was the only thing they got right.

[–]FidelCastrator -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

But their rocket technology must have been pretty respected since the Soviets and US used them to further their missile research, but then again that knowledge was probably not gained through forgoing ethics (other than, ya know, war)

[–]RedPillHorse -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, but that applied to anyone at the time. In comparison to what was going on in WW2, they made a lot of scientific breakthroughs.

To make a proper comparison, you'd need to compare how we are currently, to how the world would be if those ethics would have persisted after WW2, i.e. nazi victory alternate reality.

[–]piezeppelin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can you list any examples?

[–]RedPillHorse -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you asking for examples of America not following proper procedure(doctors giving thousands of people pryon infected HGH) or Germany inventing useful medical advancements through cruelty(skin grafting)?

There are some very famous photos of humans which nazi scientists successfully managed to remove all of their skin without killing them. Others include:

Freezing Experiments: Prisoners were immersed into tanks of ice water for hours at a time, often shivering to death, to discover how long German pilots downed by enemy fire could survive the frozen waters of the North Sea. It was generally known at the time that human beings did not survive immersion in the North Sea for more than one to two hours.

High Altitude Experiments: In 1942, Doctor Rascher began hazardous high-altitude experiments at Dachau. His goal was to determine the best means of rescuing pilots from the perils of high altitude when they abandoned craft (with or without oxygen equipment) and were subjected to low atmospheric pressures.

Sea Water Experiments: Tests on the potability of sea water were conducted at Dachau on 90 Gypsy prisoners by Doctor Hans Eppinger. The subjects were given unaltered sea water and sea water whose taste was camouflaged as their sole source of fluid. Eppinger's infamous "Berka" method was devised to test whether such liquids given as the only supply of fluid could cause severe physical disturbance or death within six to twelve days.

Sulfanilamide Experiments: The German Armed Forces suffered heavy casualties on the Russian Front in 1941 to 1943 because of gas gangrene. These casualties and other combat-related infections created an interest in a chemotherapeutic, rather than surgical treatment. The discovery of sulfanilamide offered the possibility of a new and revolutionary treatment of wound infections caused by the war. Wartime wounds were recreated and inflicted on healthy Jews designated to be treated by the new drug.

Tuberculosis Experiments: The Nazis conducted experiments to determine whether there were any natural immunities to Tuberculosis ("TB") and to develop a vaccination serum against TB.

These can be found by simple google searches, and by no means are all of the various research topics. You have to realize that a huge part of their findings were either purged by the nazis at the end of WW2 or deliberately discarded by the allies for ethical reasons. We weren't exactly jumping to use their data after one of the most vitriol loaded war we ever had.

You would really have to be in hard denial to reject the idea that these very intelligent, albeit extremely misguided scientists with limitless supply of test subjects made less advancements than scientists with heavy limitations and no test subjects beyond animals.

Does this answer your question?

[–]Psyladine 358ポイント359ポイント  (31子コメント)

and the Nazis made massive scientific breakthroughs.

"Here, twins, let's inject bleach into your eyeballs and see what the results are."

[–]desknob 181ポイント182ポイント  (19子コメント)

Don't you kinda wanna know what happens though?

[–]donttrackmedown 34ポイント35ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm pretty sure that would kill the eyeballs. I don't need an experiment to figure that out.

[–]Blayblee 66ポイント67ポイント  (3子コメント)

'Pretty sure' just isn't good enough for us scientificating types I'm afraid. Nurse! Bring in the bleachinator!

[–]jamesthunder88 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry Doctor, the bleachinator is on the Fritz, we only have the Bleach-o-Matic.

[–]KayakBassFisher 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

And its on the Hanz

[–]IamSeth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He did say they were testing on twins.

[–]TheAddiction2 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

We gotta test it to be sure. Then test it again to make sure it wasn't an anomaly.

[–]brainjuice 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Conjecture makes for bad science, commence eyeball bleaching.

[–]Forkrul 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But see, you're not 100% sure, and you don't have any empirical evidence backing up your hypothesis. This clearly calls for a series of experiments to test your hypothesis that it would "kill the eyeballs." Just positing a hypothesis without any desire to experimentally verify it is poor science and I will not stand for it.

[–]ghostbrainalpha 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's a terrible experiment. Everyone has two eyeballs so you just bleach one, you don't need twins for that.

When you get the chance to do an evil Nazi excitement on twins you have to try and make one gay.

Everyone knows that.

[–]IamSeth 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

You meant to say "experiment" but you said "excitement" and you were talking about turning people gay so I feel like that may be a very revealing Freudian slip.

[–]ghostbrainalpha 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh.... I'll totally slip a gay Freudian anytime

[–]IamSeth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You seem like the kind of guy who'd happily share a cigar.

[–]Tarantulasagna 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They went on to live deep and fulfilling lives as blind people.

[–]HBStone 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Screaming, and then silence.

[–]Cookieway 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's what forgiveness sounds like.

[–]JosephKonyOfUganda 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just a little bit?

[–]damngurl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, let's do it on you.

[–]damicks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty sure this could be offered on eBay. Anyone have an unwanted eye?

[–]Tko38 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

"One kick into the testacles; painful. What happens though, when kicked for 1 year straight? To handle uncertainty, we will have one control group that is merely burned in the testacles every 15 seconds as 30mg of heated mercury is inserted into the rectum hourly"

#NaziScience

#HeilDegrassMeinson

[–]HypocriticalThinker 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Stranger discoveries have been made.

(For instance, ingesting explosives)

[–]freedompower 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

What does it do? Explosive diarrhea?

[–]HypocriticalThinker 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nitroglycerin is a decent vasodilator.

[–]Psyladine 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You leave the Darwin awards out of this!

[–]HypocriticalThinker 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, I was referring to nitroglycerin as a drug.

[–]Highly_Literal 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

how else were we to know this would cause blindness in twins?!!?

[–]cardinals1996 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, one of the twins. The other obviously be the control group.

[–]suburban_hyena 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Let me just put some food colouring here and... damn, now you're just bleeding."

[–]p_rhymes_with_t 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC, they used twins for the purpose of studying pathogen resistance.

[–]gfcf14 124ポイント125ポイント  (40子コメント)

So did the Japanese, but at the cost of millions of Chinese lives, while at the same time experimenting on them without anesthesia and under less than deplorable living conditions, treating them as "marutas", or "logs of wood". Watch the movie "Men under the Sun", you'll be utterly disgusted by what they did in the name of "breakthrough"

[–]willscy 165ポイント166ポイント  (31子コメント)

actually almost all of the japanese research was basically trash.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

As was almost all of the Nazi research. I'm fucking flabbergasted that that comment got almost 700 upvotes.

[–]willscy 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

lots of fascist asshole wannabes on the internet.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, it's fucking disturbing. Reddit and 4chan in particular are just cesspools of this shit. And they all consider themselves liberals too. But they're more like what the actor who plays Dwight on The Office described his character as: "fascist nerds"

[–]churakaagii 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

That "trash" was worth an awful lot to MacArthur when negotiating with the Imperial government post-surrender.

[–]Rokusi 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not like he knew what he was getting, though. And even then, he's a general, not a scientist. He was probably hoping for some sort of biological weapon and ended up with data on what happens when you inject horse piss into people's veins.

[–]WickedLilThing 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Soviets did end up sending a lot of the Japanese at unit 731 to a war crimes tribunal iirc.

[–]Social_Mask 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

Actually, your comment is trash. Unit 731 received immunity (despite being responsible for ~250k deaths) in exchange for their data on biological warfare.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Data on biological warfare is worthless from a scientific perspective. What do you need to even research it for? You're not concerned with health and the intricacies of the human body, you're just exposing people to deadly contaminants. You might as well do rigidly controlled experiments on what happens when you throw sulfuric acid on someone.

[–]citrus_mystic 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What about epidemiology? I was under the impression that the experiments done at Unit 731 were, at the very least, valuable in studying how a disease can spread...

[–]originalpoopinbutt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably not as valuable as if it were real science done by professional researchers, studying actual epidemics, instead of man-made ones.

[–]suburban_hyena -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sure it did, but how did they get the disease? They were raped. How did the spread get studied? By cutting the victims open while they were still alive and checking. So, yeah, valuable, but definitely not ethical.

[–]hard-in-the-ms-paint 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd look into what they actually did. It's fucked up, but the best way to know how to protect your own soldiers and deal maximum damage, is testing on other humans. If you know how a biological weapon works, it's the first step to creating a cure. If you can test potential cures on prisoners you've intentionally infected, you can move the process much faster. They definitely were "concerned with health and the intricacies of the human body", to the extent possible in '40s Japan.

[–]suburban_hyena 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That makes me hella angry

[–]Gamanos 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can you elaborate further?

[–]willscy 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Japanese "scientists" didn't do proper scientific methodology. They basically murdered and tortured all those people and got almost nothing out of it. there's plenty of books and documentaries that go very in depth about it.

[–]cassidymoon 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're thinking of most of the German's research.

[–]bam2_89 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nope. Unit 741. They both did it, but the US did some slightly less fucked up things to conscientious objectors.

[–]markothe4rd -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Finding out what doesn't work is important.

[–]Heimdall2061 15ポイント16ポイント  (10子コメント)

That's not the point. It is true to find out what doesn't work, but you have to follow the scientific method and use proper standards and quality controls. They didn't, so pretty much all of the data is garbage. We can't use it positively or negatively.

[–]Illier1 -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

We sure did kidnap a lot of those "bad scientists" and let them off free if they gave us that "trash info"

[–]originalpoopinbutt 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah, because our government was full of idiots too.

[–]Illier1 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hey those "idiots" got us to the moon and jumped our medical tech.

[–]SpelignErrir 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I really don't think the people doing war negotiations were the same people who did the rocket science. That would be a very well-rounded individual.

[–]Illier1 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

They brought the people in who were the best, and it turned out they were Nazis.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

They also killed millions of people and brought untold horror to the world with the continued proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

The "war speeds up technological progress" line is shit. We should just fund more research instead of needing to have wars where millions die and everything gets bombed to ruins in order to "justify" spending that money.

[–]Illier1 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wish I could live in your little world, it sounds like rainbows and candy every day!

War is what drives innovation. Medicine, flight, preservation, fuck even velcro straps are a result of war funding and would likely never been advanced if their wasn't a need. Name one item in your life that isn't part of some former war research, go ahead and try.

[–]sir_rob 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

But how will you research important stuff, like "can a fetus be removed from the mother at 3 months using a rusty kitchen knife" or "how much pressure from a truck tire will crush a toddler"?

[–]Trezzie -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright, that second one intrigued me.

[–]crazedmongoose 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the German & Japanese research were all useless though. No scientific method. That's the entire problem of those ideologies, for people who so desperately wanted to base their crazy ideas off of science, they weren't scientifically all that great. Nazi Germany even tried to go back on well known scientific research because they wanted their "science" free of Jewish influence or w/e.

The axis powers of WW2 are basically those weird pasty teen boys with long hair who thinks they're so obviously stronger and smarter than everybody and bring their katanas to school one day to finally put their plan in motion but then end up getting the shit beaten out of them by a few jocks from an older grade.

[–]WickedLilThing 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Men Behind the Sun, also there's Philosophy of a Knife.

[–]suburban_hyena 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The wikipedia article on Unit 731 gives some nice good interesting information about this too.

[–]tinker_tailor17 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Annnnd then the USA grants the Unit 731 members (where disgusting biological experiments were done) full immunity in exchange for the information.

One of the leading members even went on to found a pharmaceutical company (Green Cross) after the war. It's the equivalent of having Mengele heading up your local research facility in Germany. Funny how none of this is ever taught in history classes (at least here in the UK). Absolutely despicable.

[–]Geta-Ve -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was so udderly disgusted that I had to remoove myself from the room I was grazing in. I might be milking this joke too long; teatering on the edge of cowardice.

Neigh.

[–]BecomingTheArchtype 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Uh sowing together twins wasn't very scientific.

[–]motoko_urashima -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

You say that, but...

If the twins are identical, the chance of organ rejection is lower than almost any other case in transplant, so if you were trying to test various transplant methods, twins would be slaughtered by the hundreds. Why stop at a liver? How about an arm? Is it possible to transplant a head from a different person?

[–]IngrownPubez 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

such as?

[–]HueManatee43 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Animal conservation, linking smoking to cancer and heart disease, the basis of modern rocketry, improvements to radio and television, and treatment and prevention of hypoxia and hypothermia.

[–]ibbolia 28ポイント29ポイント  (7子コメント)

There was also a lot of not so scientific murder, so...

[–]admin-admin 41ポイント42ポイント  (1子コメント)

No ethics, remember?

[–]falconfetus8 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dammit, I hate that rule.

[–]watChmeFly 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually their efficiency might be considered scientific.

[–]NSA-RAPID-RESPONSE 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Fair trade if you ask me...

[–]PookieChang 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good thing no one was

[–]NSA-RAPID-RESPONSE -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean cmon, did we really need the Jews?/s

[–]Thamanizer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's hope that the user name won't be relevant.

[–]We_Are_The_Waiting 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

No they didnt. They learned that it will make you die if you are cold.

[–]HellonStilts 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Completely false. They hardly made any valid scientific discoveries.

[–]Brett686 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did we really need to know the most effective way to commit a genocide though? I think they knocked that one out of the park

[–]MonsieurLeFabre 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Nazis used terrible research methods that were based on Aryan "science". Their work was useless. The only exceptions being the hypoxia and cold exposure experiments. Though tbh the USAF was coming to the same conclusion albeit a little slower.

[–]mrmdc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or that Japanese experimentation camp, where all the scientists were granted amnesty by the Americans in exchange for their results. (edit: or maybe I got it backwards.)

THe Japanese did worse shit than the Nazis iirc. Like... WAY worse. The threw more ethics out the window.

[–]CarrionComfort 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Meh, their breakthroughs are kinda overstated.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

At a cost literally no sane person should be willing to pay!

[–]crackedrepair 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Half of it was garbage and half was usefull.

[–]suburban_hyena 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

And no one talks about the human torture undergone in Unit 731 under Shiro Ishii.

Ever wonder how the best cure for frostbite was found? Shiro did, but subjecting his 'logs' (aka test subjects) to below freezing temperatures and then experimenting. The ice was chipped away and the area doused in water. The effects of different water temperatures were tested by bludgeoning the victim to determine if any areas were still frozen. Variations of these tests in more gruesome forms were performed.

Not to mention the vivisection, forced pregnancy and weapons testing (how does a flamethrower affect the human body? let's find out).

A unit member's testimony:

"One of the former researchers I located told me that one day he had a human experiment scheduled, but there was still time to kill. So he and another unit member took the keys to the cells and opened one that housed a Chinese woman. One of the unit members raped her; the other member took the keys and opened another cell. There was a Chinese woman in there who had been used in a frostbite experiment. She had several fingers missing and her bones were black, with gangrene set in. He was about to rape her anyway, then he saw that her sex organ was festering, with pus oozing to the surface. He gave up the idea, left, and locked the door, then later went on to his experimental work."

So, yeah, boo Nazis, boo

[–]HueManatee43 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, 731 somehow managed to be worse.

[–]HandsomeModel 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

And millions died. Millions dying for a scientific breakthrough seems pretty counterintuitive

[–]HueManatee43 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We were talking about ethics being chucked out the window.

[–]HandsomeModel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And I'm saying even with ethics chucked, millions dying for one breakthrough is super inefficient

[–]draoekade 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So did everyone else

[–]Bellyzard2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

Only in terms of millitary stuff, really, and even then it wasn't very huge; the tiger tanks past the Tiger I were pretty much overhyped garbage and while the V2 rocket was revolutionary it missed almost 50% of the time and cost 1.1 billion dollars more to make than the atomic bomb

[–]motoko_urashima 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

There was the blitzkrieg strategy.

The invention of the pulse jet engine.

The invention of the turbojet engine, which is the basis for all air travel (turbojet, turboprop, turbofan, turbine) and is also used in everything from natural gas power plants to the M1 Abrams tank.

The design of the Autobahn, which is directly attributed to the end of the perfectly straight highway and 'highway hypnosis'. It also showed how to avoid most road maintenance by laying down very thick concrete slab beneath it. Americans ignored that part and that's why our roads are so crumbly.

The development of the V2 brought the age of rocket artillery, ballistic missiles and completely changed global politics. Without the V2, the Cuban missile crisis couldn't possibly have happened, as the only gun that might've made a impact on that scale was the V3 and that was impossibly impractical. With the idea of vehicle-launched missiles that turned into SCUD systems, suddenly we had a reason to take countries like Syria seriously.

Not to mention the fact that the V1 is basically how we fight now, instead of sending in troops to handle things, we'd much rather lob a few million dollar cruise missiles at the problem and call it a day. Our enemies are simply too smart to have big open military bases anymore.

[–]Bellyzard2 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

As I don't have time to debunk this myself, here you go lad

[–]motoko_urashima 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I didn't say "the first highway", I said the modern highway. The US had a highway system before that with mainly straight roads. this presented problems with lack of depth perception and being lulled to sleep because of a lack of change in movement. The Autobahn was designed to constantly curve slightly back and forth, so the car is always moving a little and it keeps the driver awake. if you compare the state highways and the old US system to the new interstate system, some of the improvements are quite obvious. the concepts of durability based on concrete slab is also a major thing.

I also have better things to do.

[–]safarispiff 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And the autobahn wasn't actually a Nazi invention, it originated as one of the interwar public works projects of the Social Democratic and Liberal governments of the Weimar Republic. Their massive expansion, however, was due to the Nazis.

[–]safarispiff 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Blitzkrieg was never a single coherent strategy amd it was never referred to one in German documents, merely in Allied news media trying to explain why they lost so quickly. It was an evolution of WWI ideas based on economy of force and whatnot, and as a strategy was surpassed on the operational level by Soviet Deep Battle Doctrine and Allied Combined Arms.
Pulsejets were patented and developed by Russian scientists.
Turbojets were invented by Hans von Ohain during the prewar Nazi period, by they were invented almost simultaneously by Frank Whipple in the United Kingdom. The first jet fighters of the western Allies (Gloster Meteor, P-80) entered service only a few months after the Me-262 and only because their field testing regimen was more rigorous and took more time.
Edit: since the person above added in some stuff,
Autobahns were first implemented by the Social Democrats and Liberals of the Weimar Reoublic government, but their expansion was one of the Nazi projects.
The V2 was fairly innovative, if cost-ineffective, because it was the first time the rocket science that von Braun credited to figures such as Lyapunov and Goddard was applied practically. The true value of the Peenemunde reseaech was the engineering.
The V1 was most certainly technologically advanced and even a little beyond it's time. However, you're not factoring in the fact that much of German rocket science originated in the interwar Weimar Republic era. You can't credit it specifically to Nazis, though they were the ones who gave people like von Braun the money to apply it to the large scale.

[–]Sinai 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is ridiculous.

The Germans were among the top physical and organic chemists in the world before WW2, and were again after WW2, despite massive loss of intellectual and economic capital.

They didn't magically stop being good scientists just because the ruling political party was the Nazis. When the Germans were forced to make literally everything out of coal after the Allies blockaded them from access to oil, they had their factories up and running producing everything from coal in a matter of months, something that could only be done with an existing knowledge of science, good scientists, and good research facilities. Converting all your organic chemistry processes to run off a new feedstock isn't trivial,

And chemistry was hardly the only science Germany was reknowned for.

The idea that Nazi science wasn't science is mythological.

[–]safarispiff 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did I say it wasn't? I'm studying chemistry, I know all about that. I was pointing out that the examples cited above are hardly examples of superior Nazi technology, unrelated to anything to do with chemistry, because for Chrissakes I was talking about jet engines. But German scientific dominance was not a result of the Nazis, and happened both before and well after the Nazis came and went. In addition, you do have to account for the massive brain drain that occurred as a result of the Nazis when large numbers of Jewish or otherwise "undesirable" physicists fled the Nazis.
Sure, Germany had a vibrant scientific community. But trying to credit that to the Nazis, is, quite frankly, fucking ridiculous. The really mythological thing is to say that the Nazis had some special "super science" hocus pocus.

[–]Sinai -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You pretty much are saying that in the context of the thread, which is all about people trying to claim Nazis had no good science and only very minor innovations. When you're saying silly thing like

However, you're not factoring in the fact that much of German rocket science originated in the interwar Weimar Republic era. You can't credit it specifically to Nazis,

As if that isn't true for every bit of science ever done anywhere. On the shoulders of giants and all that.

Most German scientists during the Nazi period were Nazis. Trying to not credit the significant strides in areas that Nazis did to the Nazis is the result of some rose-colored bullshit.

[–]safarispiff 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

In the context of the thread, people are claiming that the Nazis achieved great scientific progress by tossing out ethics, something basicaly wholy unrelated to my initial point, which was pointing out that the things the guy above pointed out were not the best examples.

My point about the rockets is that people seem to think that the Nazis basically created modern rocket science, but none of my formulas for that sort of thing in class have German names. My assertion is that German rocket science was an achievement of engineering, you daft willy. The shoulders of giants was exactly what I was saying.

I'm not claiming that "rose-coloured bullshit", but you certainly are claiming a bunch of contrarian bullshit. I can name a whole fuckbunch of German scientists who weren't Nazis from that time period. I can also name a whole fuckbunch of German scientists who were driven away from Germany during that period, or a whole fuckbunch who were sidelined. The Nazi period was not some magical time of super special ultra science. The German scientific community existed independent of Nazism. The German scientific community is doing fine right now without Nazis. I read a bunch of papers from Angewandt a while ago, it turns out those were published independently of Nazism. I learned all about the Haber Bosch cycle a while ago, that happened independently of Nazism.

So there were significant strides made under Nazi Germany. That does not make it the magical wonderland of science everyone seems to be claiming it is. Sure, they helped fund a bunch of scientific projects, they also funded a bunch of pseudoscientific bullshit in their biology/anthropology and with Deutsch Physik. They also crippled their physics community by scaring off people like Guido Beck, Felix Bloch, James Franck, George de Hevesy, Otto Frisch, Hilde Levi, Lise Meitner, George Placzek, Eugene Rabinowitch, Stefan Rozental, Erich Ernst Schneider, Edward Teller, Arthur von Hippel, and Victor Weisskopf.

And that's a rather big claim, that almost every German scientist during the period was a Nazi. I have no doubt that there were Nazis, but the majority? You will notice that that is a big claim requiring big evidence.

In conclusion: sure, they had strides in science. That is irrelevant to my initial point that the examples cited by the person I was originally replying to were poor examples (heck, one of my points wasn't even about science, it was about Blitzkrieg), irrelevant to the wider thread's trend asserting that the abandonment of ethics by the Nazis led to particularly great leaps of science, and misleading to credit the Nazis with helping the already vibrant Germanophone scientific community. Because, as you probably know, before the Nazis came to power, in the 1930s, German journals were the largest academic journals. After the Nazis fell, in the 1950s, English journals were the largest publications. Germany in 1933 had plenty of science chops, the Nazis do not get to take credit for that. So, basically, you stuck in irrelevant points in what I am forced to conclude was an attempt to start shit.

[–]PlayMp1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/shitwehraboossay

[–]KitSuneSvensson -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's really sad to say that their horrible experiments brought us a lot of progress in medicin.

I've read that some nazi scientists were forgiven for their crimes if they agreed to help the winning countries of WW2 with their science and share their knowledge to them.

[–]Red_of_Head 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really? Could you name all the their contributions?

[–]KitSuneSvensson [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

As for the progress in medicin, I bet they did a lot of psychological tests on people, and there's also that frostbite/freezing treatment thingy.

[–]IngrownPubez 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

wrong

[–]PlayMp1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope, they didn't.

[–]Galle_ -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, they didn't. In fact, they actually slowed down scientific progress in Germany because they threw out the entirety of modern physics to spite Einstein.