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That is a huge statue in Senegal: The African Renaissance Monument (i.imgur.com)

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[–]7relos 6ポイント7ポイント  (63子コメント)

I wonder what Africa would be like today if they weren't pillaged and looted for centuries.

[–]spurioushamster 41ポイント42ポイント  (23子コメント)

Mud huts and a much smaller population

[–]Think_for_ward 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, colonialism is bad. I don't have to explain why, they told me that in school.

[–]IgnisDomini 5ポイント6ポイント  (16子コメント)

Do you really think Africans lived in fucking mud hits before the good white, european saviors enlightened them? They had fucking stone cities and built huge monuments.

Stop reading shit from the early 1900s on African history.

[–]bukkake_bonanza -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Do you really think Africans lived in fucking mud hits before the good white, european saviors enlightened them?

Yes. There has been no great sub Saharan civilization.

[–]DominusLutrae 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I guess these don't count.

[–]IgnisDomini 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

What the fuck do you call Mali then? Whose rulers were some of the richest men in all human history? Mansa Musa gave out so much gold to the poor along his pilgrimmage to Mecca that it crashed local economies everywhere he visited.

[–]bunkorder 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

mali is the go-to example for organic civilization in africa, it's the last known one. however, it was dissolved 300 years before white people conquered the continent, yet you'd still claim europeans are responsible for destroying africa's prosperity.

[–]IgnisDomini 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

He said:

There has been no great sub Saharan civilization.

I used Mali as an example of a great Sub-Saharan African civilization to refute that specific argument, not to claim Europeans destroyed it. What is it with you people and reading everything you possibly can into my arguments to find something to try and refute them? Can't come up with any real arguments?

While Mali had collapsed by the time of European conquest, successful civilizations continued to exist in the region well up until the conquest. That's like saying Europe is nothing but savages because Rome isn't around anymore.

[–]bunkorder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

fair enough, I assumed you were also the OP of the higher up comment who blamed white people.

some actual arguments as to why mali wasn't a great civilization:

  • known only for having tons of gold and economic influence, not social/military/academic/engineering achievements. this is comparable to saudi arabia, which isn't civilized by modern standards yet is very wealthy and influential due to selling its resources.

  • any surviving records are in arabic. they couldn't write until the arabs taught them.

  • mosques (foreign influence again) only surviving monuments

  • no seafairing, never left their continent

  • couldn't extract any metal besides soft gold and copper from the earth. they had to buy import spears to equip their military with competitive weapons.

  • technology was foreign, acquired via trade

mali does not compare to other civilizations, not even close.

[–]DominusLutrae 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're moving the goalposts. He said that there have been no great sub-Saharan civilizations.

[–]bukkake_bonanza [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Describe the accomplishments of the Mali Empire that lead you to conclude that this was a great civilization. Looks to me like they dug gold and copper out of the ground and got into spear fights with their neighbors.

What great mathematical accomplishments did they have? What great engineering feats did they perform? What technologies did they develop?

[–]SourceZeroOne -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Is that the best example of the "stone cities" you have? In all honesty, it's not very impressive.

[–]IgnisDomini 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

The city would likely have historically been surrounded by simpler houses that wouldn't have lasted as long after being abandoned. In addition, only the largest European cities at the time would have actually exceeded it - this was from around 1000 - 1400, there were only a few cities in the entire world that were significantly larger.

[–]SourceZeroOne 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Please. It's not about how many little stone houses were built in one area.

Look at what the Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc...built thousands of years earlier. There is no fucking comparison.

[–]IgnisDomini -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you're just going to move the goalposts every time I refute your argument? Boy, you really are determined to hate black people. So, at this point I'd need to prove to you that Africans have acheived more than anyone else ever did just to prove that they weren't savages in need of European enlightenment? Give me a break.

[–]SourceZeroOne [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

So...I "hate black people" just because I refute your claim that Sub-Saharan's ever built anything comparable to what was built by the people of the Mediterranean?

[–]IgnisDomini [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Sigh, you really are bad at this aren't you, to need to distort the argument so much just to have something you can argue against?

Okay, first off, things like the Great Mosque of Djenne and Great Zimbabwe would have been architectural marvels for their time, easily comparable to contemporary or earlier European/Mediterranean achievements.

Second, that was not actually my claim. My claim was that Africans were not savages living in mud huts with no civilization that were desperately in need of European enlightenment. They wouldn't have had to be as good or better than Europeans for colonization to be a huge net negative for African civilization.

[–]SourceZeroOne [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The Great Mosque of Djenne and Great Zimbabwe are NOWHERE NEAR comparable to contemporary (or even thousands of years older) European and Mediterranean temples, buildings and cities.

That's my only point and a point I will gladly argue because, frankly, you'd have to be blind to think otherwise.

I never said anything about anything else...that was all you.

[–]no_malis [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I resent judging civilizations by their stone buildings. By this standard Canada's a third-world country!

[–]DominusLutrae [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

>I'm very sensitive to condescending idiots that make sweeping generalisations without knowing the facts or context. Go be pissy somewhere else you troll.

I think I'm going to die of irony overdose.

[–]Theodore-Hunter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't say colonialism was unequivocally bad. It was a mixed bag, sure, but it's not like it alone was the reason why Africa is like the way it is today. I'd put far more emphasis only the totally botched and half-assed decolonization efforts instead.

[–]Kolecr01 5ポイント6ポイント  (25子コメント)

what about the thousands of years prior in which no meaningful civilization arose there? Egyptians were never considered African. The closest to major development Africans got was Nubia.

[–]DominusLutrae 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol pal your willful ignorance is showing.

[–]Kolecr01 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Compare the largest one to the smallest European, Asian, or Latin American empire and you'll see your willful ignorance. They were industrially, artistically, militarily primitive.

[–]untipoquenojuega 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Axum, Songhai, and Ghana are the first that come to mind though they were mainly important trade based empires.

[–]PizzaPeacePlan 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ever heard of the Great Zimbabwe?

[–]SourceZeroOne -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Just saw it linked above and honestly, it's really not impressive at all.

[–]DominusLutrae [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yeah they're called ruins, dawg. Rome's not super impressive either, I guess.

[–]alphawolf29 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Dude have you been to rome? Rome is super impressive.

[–]DominusLutrae [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm not disputing that. I actually love Rome. It's my favorite civilization. But it's not fair to judge a civilization by its ruins.

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Having a large nation with a standing army capable of invading it's neighbors isn't the only measure of success.

[–]Kolecr01 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

You're right, hunter gatherers are great.

[–]IgnisDomini 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

And you're totally right, all Africans were totally hunters and gatherers before the good europeans showed up to enlighten them! No great stone cities with tens of thousands of people or huge mosques dating back hundreds of years before european contact at all, nope!

Maybe read a book about Africa for once before acting like you're an authority on it.

[–]SourceZeroOne 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

If they built a mosque, then obviously someone from another part of the world must have spread Islam there...along with some architectural knowledge.

[–]IgnisDomini 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

And you don't think Europeans got any knowledge from anywhere else? The greeks totally didn't gain a lot of their knowledge from the Egyptians?

[–]SourceZeroOne -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Of course Greece got it's knowledge from Egypt. And the Romans from the Greeks.

That's not the point.

You made it sound like that Mosque came directly from the Sub-Saharan Africans without any input from any other culture. Obviously because it's a MOSQUE that's not true.

Unless you are trying to say that Sub-Saharan Africans built Egypt. In which case I have nothing more to say to you.

[–]IgnisDomini 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's completely beside the point, and I have no idea why you'd read that far into my comment. You asserted all subsaharan africans were hunter-gatherers, I refuted that.

[–]SourceZeroOne [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think you have me mixed up with someone else. Where did I say all Sub-Saharan Africans were hunter-gatherers?

[–]DominusLutrae 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have some kind of preternatural ability to move goalposts. I think you could make a business out of this.

[–]bunkorder 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

how about being able to extract metal other than gold from the earth? both africa and the americas were in the stone age when europeans came, using stone/bone blades against their invaders.

[–]DominusLutrae [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Oh I guess that Mansa Musa was just gifted his gold by the gods. TIL.

[–]bunkorder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

other than gold

nice snark tho. gold is soft, it's easy to extract and doesn't require any metallurgy. there's a reason civilization is measured by metal ages. copper is softer than bronze, which is softer than iron, etc. on this scale, mali was partially into the iron age and importing the rest of knowledge/technology

[–]IgnisDomini [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Many african civilizations had iron weapons.

[–]aletoledo [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I agree they were unprepared for how savage the europeans were for killing. The question here is whether they would have been successful absent the european menace. Not everything has to be about fighting.

[–]bunkorder [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's a patronizing question. you're implying africa can only be "successful" if all competition is removed.

[–]aletoledo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes, that was the question put forward, but I don't see how that is patronizing.