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DiscussionSexism vs Misogyny (self.PurplePillDebate)
wub1234 が 9日前 投稿
In this thread it was claimed that...
TRP is not misogynistic. But it is sexist. Intentionally.
(i) Do you agree that TRP is intentionally sexist?
(ii) What is the difference between being 'intentionally sexist' and 'misogynistic'?
(iii) Do you think it is reasonable for people to object to something which is 'intentionally sexist'?
[–]Johnny_Lawless_EsqAnti-Feminist, Anti-Misogynist, Pro-Equality Red-Pill 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
This thread is going to run hard into a definition problem. Can we please define sexism?
[–]despisedlove2 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9日前 (4子コメント)
RP isn't misogynistic.
They don't hate women. They simply don't have high expectations of them.
Sexist definitely.
[–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前* (3子コメント)
There's a whole lot of schadenfreude going on when they see women age (hitting the wall) faster than themselves. And like this whole revenge porn fatansy - well not actual porn, but the fantasy that women will get payback for all the evil things they supposedly did.
[–]KrispyMcSockington 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (2子コメント)
Well that's because when they were hurt and rejected no one cared and they were just told to man up. No one really cares how men feel, so when a woman gets even the slightest taste of what it feels like to have no one care, they celebrate. Mostly, this is because they felt or still feel powerless.
Most of them get over the anger, find some way to forgive the people who hurt them and move on, but emotions are tricky things. There will always be someone wishing for your downfall. Their delight in women hitting the wall and losing the interest of men is like when a rich banker or CEO is taken down. Sure, they may have done nothing wrong, but deep down we're happy they might get a taste of what it's like to be the average joe and josephine. Especially if they're to blame for any financial woes a nation faces.
So those guys are really just complaining that they feel powerless in a society that just cares about how the elite...er...I mean women feel.
[–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (1子コメント)
Reasoning for being misogynic is still being misogynic.
[–]KrispyMcSockington 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7日前 (0子コメント)
See what I mean? No one cares how men feel.
[–]GaiusScaevolusMod TRP/AskTRP/BaM 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9日前 (7子コメント)
i. Yes
ii. 'Sexist' is viewing the sexes as inherently different. Misogyny is thinking all women are inferior to men due to not having dangly parts.
iii. You can object to anything you want. I think it's silly to deny that men and women are different. I think it's a plainly observable fact, but people object to all sorts of stupid things nowadays.
[–]disposable_pants 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (6子コメント)
'Sexist' is viewing the sexes as inherently different.
This isn't the case. The formal definition of sexism does specify that prejudice/discrimination is involved, and the colloquial definition also carries this implication. Because of this, TRP is not sexist, as believing that men and women aren't exactly the same isn't sexist.
[–]mustang_mikePillow Fight 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 9日前 (5子コメント)
I think even by that definition we're still sexist. I don't treat women the same way I treat men, solely based on the fact that they're women and don't react well to being treated/talked to like a man (see the constant pushback to TRP's language). I don't know a man who doesn't put on kid gloves, at least a little bit, when dealing with women.
I also believe that men as a whole are better than women as a whole 99% of the time, out of pure biological necessity. In order to reproduce a man has to provide value and prove he's worth reproducing with. A woman just has to exist. It's basic TRP shit, women are the gatekeepers of sex (thus reproduction).
So hell yeah I'm a sexist, but that's because I'm also a realist.
[–]disposable_pants -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9日前 (4子コメント)
I don't treat women the same way I treat men, solely based on the fact that they're women and don't react well to being treated/talked to like a man
That's still not sexism, because treating people differently is neither discriminatory nor prejudiced. If I have a friend who's a lawyer and a friend who's a doctor, and I treat them differently (I talk about things lawyers would be interested in with the former and things doctors would be interested in with the latter) I'm not "professionist." Different =/= bad.
I also believe that men as a whole are better than women as a whole 99% of the time, out of pure biological necessity.
That's closer to sexism, but I'm still not sure it qualifies. For example, say I have two groups of entrepreneurs -- Group A built their businesses by working three jobs to support it, and Group B got small loans of a million dollars from their parents. Having more respect for Group A and trusting their business acumen more than that of Group B isn't discriminatory or prejudiced; it's recognizing that Group A likely had a tougher path than Group B.
[–]mustang_mikePillow Fight 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (3子コメント)
This must be a leap day, because I'm on PPD trying to prove I am sexist!
I think there are people who would call my previous statements sexist. I also think those same people believe sexism is always a bad thing, where as I don't. I have no problem labeling myself sexist, especially by the definition they use.
Not letting women fight on the front lines in combat is sexist, for example. There are plenty of cases where sexism actually makes sense, but the typical reactionaries who are quick to point a finger and shout "sexist!" aren't capable of understanding this nuance.
[–]disposable_pants -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9日前 (2子コメント)
I have no problem labeling myself sexist, especially by the definition they use.
If their definition is "anything that's not pro-women" I'm sexist, too. I'm talking about the world's actual, formal, dictionary definition.
Not letting women fight on the front lines in combat is sexist, for example.
The logic behind this is essentially "women are less physically capable" -- that's not sexist. Women (on average) running slower and being able to carry less isn't untrue and it's neither discriminatory nor prejudiced.
[–]mustang_mikePillow Fight 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (1子コメント)
Not only that but group dynamics change when women are included. Pretty sure the Marines did a study on this and men in the squads ended up taking more risks when women were in danger vs men.
I get the reasoning for it, all I'm saying is it's a clear case of discrimination based on se,x which is the definition of sexism. It's rooted in innate differences between men and women, sure, but it's sexism regardless. And it's not a bad thing.
[–]disposable_pants 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (0子コメント)
I think sexism is discriminating against a woman for no other reason than that she's a woman. For example, there are many competent female lawyers -- clearly women can perform in that job about as well as men. If I decide not to hire female lawyers I don't have a valid reason for making that decision, so I'm probably discriminating against women just because they're women.
That's not what the "keep women out of combat" argument is, though. There are valid, rational reasons to keep women out of combat that are completely unrelated to the fact that they're women. Imagine if I had 50 men and 50 women run through a battery of physical tests, then removed names and genders from the results. If I hand those to someone and ask them to pick the best 20 athletes, there's a really low chance that group winds up with a woman. That decision clearly isn't sexist -- there's not an ounce of discrimination solely because women are women.
[–]OlBastardRP| It's not rape if she's fat. 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
i) Of course, given the definition of sexism. Everyone is sexist. You cannot be human and not sexist.
ii) There isn't one.
iii) No, it isn't reasonable because they misunderstand the flow of human interaction.
[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 9日前* (1子コメント)
I think TRP is misogynistic, so of course it is sexist. It is "intentionally sexist" because this is what TRPers believe based upon their observations of women.
The difference is that TRP claims that there are innate differences between men and women, so this is what "sexism" means to them. I also believe that there are differences between men and women, but what within the categories of "men" and "women" there is so much variation that it makes an heuristic like "AWALT" meaningless and believing in such an heuristic harmful. A fundamental belief in AWALT is what I think makes TRP misogynistic, meaning that they use their generalizations to denigrate "all" women.
Sure, although certain objections are reasonable or unreasonable based upon how the initial evidence is presented. If TRP presents a study that says women have a tendency to be a certain way and then argues precisely that, then it would be reasonable to counter it by coming up with evidence contrary to the study, not by screaming "Misogynist!" If TRP presents a study that says women have a tendency to be a certain way and then says "This proves AWALT," then this is an unreasonable claim by them and the other side has every excuse to scream "Misogynist!"
[–]alcockell 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
Aphorisms. "\treat all guns as loaded"
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
I do agree that TRP is intentionally sexist: it consistently compares women negatively to men, uses AWALT to both ascribe all sorts of negative qualities to women as a whole, and to assume that women will have XYZ qualities by virtue of their gender.
Besides the fact that misogyny is specifically geared to women and sexism isn't, I think misogyny--misandry, whatever--is both more intense and more personal than sexism when you're talking about sexism/misogyny between individuals. I also think that sexism has more potential to act on an institutional level (to be reflected in the media, politics, etc.) than misogyny does.
I definitely think people should object to things that are intentionally sexist: it's ridiculous to treat someone unfairly because of her/hir/his gender, something that's a) impossible to control and b) shouldn't be a source of shame.
[–]MorphineOralSolution10mg/5ml 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9日前 (3子コメント)
Do you agree that TRP is intentionally sexist?
Yes.
What is the difference between being 'intentionally sexist' and 'misogynistic'?
Sexist is discrimination based on gender, misogyny is hatred of women. Very distinct concepts.
Do you think it is reasonable for people to object to something which is 'intentionally sexist'?
The whole point of that atmosphere is drive certain people away so I'm sure I'm with TRP here when I say yes.
[–]wub1234[S] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (2子コメント)
Who are they trying to drive away and why?
[–]MorphineOralSolution10mg/5ml 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
Politically correct people who are turned away by bad words.
I mean personally I think they go too far with the pure anger displayed all over the place, but that is the intention and design.
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
People that aren't ready to be unplugged.
[–]wub1234[S] 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (1子コメント)
There have been a few responses now, so let me point something out.
(i) I can't comment on whether TRP is intentionally sexist or not because I haven't spent enough time there and don't know the ethos of the people who set it up;
(ii) The dictionary definition of sexism is:
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women. ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women; misogyny.
It even includes the word 'misogyny' as part of the definition. The only aspect of that definition I would quibble with is the emphasis on discrimination against women, as I believe men face discrimination as well, and that this is largely swept under the carpet.
For me, setting out to be intentionally sexist is misogynistic by its very nature. Don't critics accuse hardline feminists of being man-haters? What's the difference?
(iii) Obviously people are going to object to something that is intentionally sexist. That's the thing I find most bizarre, that you get some RPers on here surprised that people are critical of TRP. Of course they're going to be critical when it's intentionally sexist!
You have a board with guys slagging women off right, left and centre, calling them inferior, stupid, child-like, all the same and God knows what else, and this is intentional, the atmosphere and ethos is supposed to be like this. And then you're surprised when intelligent women object!
[–]probably_quite_drunk 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
For me, setting out to be intentionally sexist is misogynistic by its very nature.
If sexism only worked one way, you might be onto something. But that line of thinking would also reduce racism to just hating black people, for example, but not Asians, Hispanics, etc. Logically, this isn't the case.
[–]circlhat 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
when we think of racism and sexism we think of discrimination, TRP is sexist like heterosexuals are sexist.
I'm a heterosexual male so I only date women, therefore I'm discriminating against man.
[–][削除されました] 8日前 (3子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]wub1234[S] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (2子コメント)
Absolutely. I don't want to live in a bigoted society. Do you?
No, I do not. I've already lived in the town where I was born...
[–][削除されました] 8日前 (1子コメント)
[–]wub1234[S] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (0子コメント)
I suppose that things are changing slowly. The younger generation is more enlightened. Not knowing too much about it, but I imagine it's a bit like the South of the States...over time things are evolving and will evolve. But a lot of the old attitudes still linger.
Anyway, I don't live there so it's not my problem!
[–]betterdeadthanbetaCan't BTFO the BDTB 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (35子コメント)
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (34子コメント)
How can sexism be justified? Every single case of sexism is making a value judgment of a person based on gender, not actions.
[–]disposable_pants 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (11子コメント)
Every single case of sexism is making a value judgment of a person based on gender, not actions.
Noting a difference is not a value judgement. If I say that women are lighter and shorter than men, that's not claiming that they're somehow worse than men, too. Just different.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (10子コメント)
Saying that there are general physical differences between women and men (or rather, males and females) isn't sexist because that's talking about strictly physical differences that are rooted in biology. Saying that all women or all men are bound to behave in a specific way because of their gender is sexist because it ignores upbringing, environment, and individual experience in favor of one's gender.
[–]fatdoobsRed but not gross 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (3子コメント)
But that doesn't change reality. It doesn't matter if women behave in a certain way because of how they're socialised (FYI, biology also is a factor), they're still acting in that way. It doesn't mean they must necessarily act in that way, but a significant number of them do. If I say that women gossip more than men, it might be because they're socialised to do that, and there will be some women who don't gossip, but I'm not wrong.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (2子コメント)
Yes, I realize that biology is a factor in that the genes you inherit from your parents will affect your personality, and your hormone balance will impact your behavior. But even though a gender is more likely to behave in a certain way, that still doesn't mean that one should assume that a given member of a gender is going to react that way without really interacting with them first, and treat that person accordingly. That's sexist. Statistics aren't infalliable, by the way, and can reflect bias within our society: what's "gossip," which topics are more likely to be defined as gossip, and why?
[–]fatdoobsRed but not gross 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (1子コメント)
that still doesn't mean that one should assume that a given member of a gender is going to react that way without really interacting with them first, and treat that person accordingly
This is the problem but actually most people aren't doing this. It is surprising when a woman knows how to change a flat tire, it is surprising when they're good at computer science and physics and engineering and so on.
That's not the same as discrimination.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (0子コメント)
That's passive sexism, not active sexism (discrimination). As long as we can agree that there's nothing inherent to being a woman that makes the above true, then we're good.
[–]disposable_pants 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (5子コメント)
Saying that all women or all men are bound to behave in a specific way because of their gender is sexist because it ignores upbringing, environment, and individual experience in favor of one's gender.
"Men are more likely to get in a fistfight than women" is a behavioral statement that is in no way sexist. Where's the discrimination? Where's the prejudice? Would you say that statement is incorrect?
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (4子コメント)
That isn't sexist because that's a neutral statistic. Statistics can be interpreted unfairly or with bias, and the way they're framed can also be biased, but statistics as a concept is fairly neutral.
[–]disposable_pants 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (3子コメント)
Agreed. And I think you can make equally statistically valid claims about other male and female behaviors, e.g. "women are more emotional than men."
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 8日前 (2子コメント)
No, you can't. Emotion is a response to a stimulus that prompts a behavior. This is due to a combination of mental processes rooted within/between the regions of the brain--all of us have these regions--and physiological processes that center around various chemical messengers and hormones--all of us have these, too. People may respond to emotions differently because of different personalities and being socialized differently, but all of us constantly respond to stimuli emotionally.
[–]disposable_pants 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (1子コメント)
Ask someone in advertising or sales if women are more emotional than men. Ask someone in HR if women or men are more likely to cry when they get fired. Ask a therapist if women and men handle their problems in exactly the same way.
The overall point is that -- whether you agree with any individual claim -- it is possible to make valid, statistically true claims about male and female behavior. As you point out, these are neutral, not sexist.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 8日前* (0子コメント)
Or we could ask a cognitive psychologist--the person whose job it is to understand mental processes--and (s)he would tell you that no gender is "more emotional" than the others. And we weren't talking about how different genders are socialized to handle problems, we were discussing which gender was more emotional. And the answer is none of them.
Edit: grammar.
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (21子コメント)
Because it leads to good results. For instance I don't listen to the dating advice that women give, because they're women. Turns out to be a fucking fantastic idea because women give shitty dating advice to men.
This isn't some holy SJW crusade for fairness or some seekrit girl-haters club, this is about real life results.
[–]nomdplumeRed Pill Lone Wolf 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (8子コメント)
For instance I don't listen to the dating advice that women give, because they're women.
A couple of days ago, I got accused of being "sexist" by a friend because I claimed I didn't pay much attention to what women are staying about what I should and shouldn't do. That I don't "trust women", and that is somehow "wrong", even though I gave numerous examples of having followed their words/advice to our mutual detriment.
It's crazy how much men are conditioned to put what women want/say they want above all else. Not doing so is both "sexist" and "misogynistic" (seeing them as untrustworthy/unreliable when it comes to their own self-awareness/self-analysis).
It is sexist to not pay attention to what women say, because they're women. The problem is that sexism is blasphemy in this culture. You don't go into the Church and spit in the holy water, you don't take down the portrait of Lenin that the Party has put up on the wall, you don't say sexist things out loud.
Don't try to argue with zealots, they'll burn you at the stake for heresy.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前* (6子コメント)
Really? If you want to eat a cookie, and a woman tells you not to eat it because she hates that flavor, it's not sexist to say "No, I'll do what I want to, and I want to see if it's good for myself." It is sexist to say, "God, I know you women like chocolate chip more than macadamia nut, but let me see if it's good for myself.". If a strange woman says, "I don't like it when strangers approach me," to keep talking to her anyway is rude and selfish. If you're doing it because you believe that she can't really know what she wants--she's a woman!--then you're sexist.
Edit: clarity.
[–]nomdplumeRed Pill Lone Wolf 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8日前 (5子コメント)
If a strange woman says, "I don't like it when strangers approach me," to keep talking to her anyway is rude and selfish.
Hahahaha…
Do you know how many times I've been thrown off by that?
When I was younger and still unclear how this works, I distinctly remember at time when I was staying up late talking with one of the most gorgeous girls with whom I had ever enjoyed the pleasure of hanging out. In my eyes, a 10/10 for sure. I was more than a little intimidated.
It was the last night of a week long event, and the whole conversation (it felt like) was her complaining about all the guys who had hit on her all week. How creepy and inappropriate they were. How she hated it. And on and on.
I had no idea what to do - obviously, this girl wants to stay up all night hanging out with me, but clearly she doesn't like guys hitting on her, right? So I shouldn't hit on her, right?
So, I get home from the event, and there is an email waiting. "Dude, I thought you were hot! Why didn't you make a move on me the other night? Shoulda woulda coulda…I'm bummed…" Then she invited me to go with her on a trip to Cancun (I declined, as my schedule didn't allow for it).
Clearly, I missed a communication in there somewhere. I learned a lot from that interaction.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7日前 (4子コメント)
You weren't strangers by that point. And you weren't hitting on her aggressively like those other guys presumably were - you were simply talking to her casually. It sucks that it didn't work out. Maybe she wasn't clear enough, or maybe you misinterpreted/got psyched out, but what exactly did you learn from that experience? That if a woman says she doesn't like it when people hit on her, you should just be more aggressive anyway because you know better now? Even if she's a complete stranger? That's a dangerous assumption to make, for both you and the woman you approach this way. Look at it this way: if a woman (or any person) consistently says things that (s)he doesn't mean and gets mad when people don't magically know what (s)he wanted and do things that make him/her unhappy because they were trying to respect his/her boundaries, then that person isn't a good friend or partner because that person is rude and selfish; they don't care about the effect their actions can have on other people. Similarly, if you hear a woman assert her boundaries, thinking back to the situation above and deciding to ignore said boundaries is rude and selfish because you could end up really hurting someone. Maybe she'll be like the woman I described earlier and you'll be perfect for each other, but what if she isn't? Even if she sometimes means it and sometimes doesn't, what if you choose wrong one time? Both of you could face some serious consequences. Hopefully that isn't what you learned (and if it isn't, feel free to call me out), but that's what it seems like to me.
Here's what you should do when you approach women: look at their body language: is it closed off (not engaged with you at all) or open (ready for conversation)? Is she facing you or facing away from you? Is she looking at you or away from you? Does she look happy, or uncomfortable? DO NOT THINK, "Well, she's talking to me - if she weren't interested, she'd just leave!" Sometimes women do, but other times (especially if they're approached by strangers who are more physically intimidating than they are and are in their personal space) they won't outright say no because they're afraid of what might happen to them. So if her body language says "Interested!" feel free to keep flirting, then ask for her number or whatever. If it doesn't, then give her your number and leave her to decide whether or not you two will keep in touch. Again, you hopefully won't need to hear this (and feel free to add anything), but at least it's out there.
[–]nomdplumeRed Pill Lone Wolf 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7日前 (3子コメント)
You weren't strangers by that point.
Wut?
Functionally, we were the same sort of strangers we would have been if she had told me "I don't like strangers approaching me." In either instance, we didn't know each other at all.
And you weren't hitting on her aggressively like those other guys presumably were - you were simply talking to her casually.
I wasn't hitting on her at all. "Aggressively" or otherwise.
but what exactly did you learn from that experience?
That women "bragplain" a lot in an attempt to present themselves as desirable by showing "social proof."
you should just be more aggressive anyway because you know better now?
What does "more aggressive" mean? I don't think of myself as "aggressive", I think of myself as being straight and direct. I can advocate for what I want, directly and without compromise. If that is seen as "aggressive", that's on the other, not on me. If she responds in a straight-forward fashion about what she wants directly and without compromise, is she now similarly "aggressive"?
deciding to ignore said boundaries
Except "said boundaries" where not the boundaries.
is rude and selfish because you could end up really hurting someone.
Oh please. Stop with the drama. How could I really hurt her by hitting on her? Clearly, she wasn't "really hurt" by all the other guys hitting on her (despite her complaints) - she was functioning just fine.
Might she be disappointed? Perhaps, who knows. But I usually count on the fact that women put on their big girl panties in the morning and can handle being hit on by li'l ol me. Or is that something only boys need to do?
what if you choose wrong one time? Both of you could face some serious consequences.
What serious consequences? Honestly, what kind of consequences would I have faced had I "chosen wrong"? She rebuffs me? I become "just like all those other guys"? Who cares. I am just like all those other guys (hopefully, a more attractive and charming and lovable guy, but a guy nonetheless).
If you want to live life as safely as possible, never going for what you want and never taking risks when it comes to others, that's fine. But "nothing ventured, nothing gained" is a much more rewarding approach IME. My first priority in life isn't to have everything be as safe as possible, because safety, in and of itself, doesn't accomplish much.
Here's what you should do when you approach women:
Thanks Dr. Love. I've been approaching women for decades now, I've got the basics on reading reactions and body language.
Sometimes women do, but other times (especially if they're approached by strangers who are more physically intimidating than they are and are in their personal space) they won't outright say no because they're afraid of what might happen to them.
Why would you ever assume a woman is only talking to you because she is terrified not to talk to you? While there may be a few women out there for whom this is true, I can promise you - the vast majority are not. If they seem interested in talking with you, it's because they are actually interested in talking with you, not because they are terrified but unable to show any sign of their fear. I don't have to project fear onto them in order to make sure we're all okay. That's neurotic.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3日前 (0子コメント)
You'd been talking to each other for a week, hadn't you? You were acquaintances, not strangers.
Exactly. You weren't being aggressive, and your relationship was casual enough that she could be comfortable around you and be disappointed that you didn't ask her out (as well as ask you out herself).
women "bragplain" a lot in an attempt to present themselves as desirable by showing "social proof."
Nope. Most women don't bring up sexual harassment or how much they get hit on unless they're commiserating with their friends or it's relevant to the conversation. Even if that's what she was doing (which I really doubt), that's not a common thing amongst women.
I think of myself as being straight and direct. I can advocate for what I want, directly and without compromise. If that is seen as "aggressive", that's on the other, not on me. If she responds in a straight-forward fashion about what she wants directly and without compromise, is she now similarly "aggressive"?
Well, that depends. If you propositioned someone and she said, "I'd be open to it, but I'd need time because I just got out of a relationship." How would you feel then? Would you accept it or react angrily? The second choice is the reaction of someone who's too aggressive.
I wasn't talking about you (nomdplume), I was speaking generally. "The situation above" referred to this: "If a strange woman says, 'I don't like it when strangers approach me,' to keep talking to her anyway is rude and selfish."
Again, I wasn't talking about that specific situation you're thinking of, but the hypothetical that I outlined in my response to your previous quote. To be clear, by choosing to disregard someone's stated boundaries, you (the general "you", not you specifically) could really hurt someone by making them feel as though her choices and wish to have control over her own body is unimportant/irrelevant - if it weren't, why wouldn't you respect her decision? Experiencing lots of situations like these can lead to anxiety, depression, low self-esteem/self-worth, etc. BTW, just because something doesn't affect a woman to that extreme doesn't mean that it's something acceptable. Is it acceptable for a vendor to hook a $2.50 bracelet onto your arm to force you to buy it, even though you could easily pay for it? No. Unwanted advances and propositions are much more serious and risky than paying for a bracelet, and the logic carries over just as well.
You might have missed this, but I said: " if a woman (or any person) consistently says things that she doesn't mean and gets mad when people don't magically know what she wanted and do things that make her unhappy because they were trying to respect her [explicitly stated] boundaries, then that person isn't a good friend or partner because that person is rude and selfish; they don't care about the effect their actions can have on other people." If she can't express her boundaries clearly (while she isn't being coerced or intimidated), then she should deal with the consequences, including disappointment. Don't put words in my mouth.
What serious consequences? Honestly, what kind of consequences would I have faced had I "chosen wrong"? She rebuffs me? I become "just like all those other guys"? Who cares. I am just like all those other guys
Again, I was referring the two selfish people - the hypothetical woman who doesn't clearly express her boundaries but expects people to know what she wants at all times, and the man who ignores peoples stated boundaries because he "knows better" - in a relationship. The severity of the consequences could depend on the situation: it could range from an unsatisfying kiss to the two accidentally hurting each other during sex. If the man were to ignore the wrong boundary at the wrong time, he could end up assaulting her and she could be the could be the victim. Respecting boundaries is important.
f you want to live life as safely as possible, never going for what you want and never taking risks when it comes to others, that's fine. But "nothing ventured, nothing gained" is a much more rewarding approach IME. My first priority in life isn't to have everything be as safe as possible, because safety, in and of itself, doesn't accomplish much.
Of course you should go for what you want and take risks; that's a huge part of being successful and living a satisfying life. But "nothing ventured, nothing gained isn't good enough when it comes to people's bodies: no matter what you want, you have to respect other people's wishes and boundaries. Try it (and by it, I mean something pretty harmless relative to your level of intimacy) once, and stop if she doesn't like it. No exceptions. If she's said she doesn't want you to kiss her ahead of time, don't do it without asking her first. No exceptions. If she's mad because her boundaries were violated, too bad for you. You asked for it.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3日前 (1子コメント)
This comment explains it really well:
"This is going to be long, but you asked for it.
As far as my judgement goes, aside from the creepy dude following her and a few of the men who were quite lewd, I did not find the majority of the clips threatening, menacing or negative in a general sense.
Well the reason is simple why you didn't find this threatening; you have never experienced this. You are a man. I don't blame you for not understanding something you will most probably never experience. But you're still human, and humans can have empathy. So try and exercise yours for a bit.
Life is different for a woman. The woman in that video got over a hundred catcalls just for walking down the street. Have you ever been catcalled? Have you ever felt threatened or intimidated, because someone kept following you and asking for your number? And when you didn't give it to them, and rejected them, they got violent with you? Started touching you, pushing you, until you feared for your life?
My guess is, no. You never have. Because men don't get harassed on the street for being men (with the exceptions of minorities such as gay men and transmen). But women do. These people in the video that try and engage with her, you might think they're just friendly hello's - but friendly hello's are only friendly if they greet everyone. They didn't. They singled her out because she was a woman. They wanted her attention, they had an ulterior motive. And once they get a positive reaction (they will think anything is positive so long as she responds), they will continue to badger the woman with questions, remarks and retorts.
Why do these men say hello to her, and not everyone else walking down the street? Because she's a woman, and they think she is attractive. Toxic masculinity is heavily associated with a man's sexuality, and treating women like sexual objects that are there to please their eyes. You see it often with a group of men, who will say sexist remarks like "I'd tap that!" when a woman walks by, just so they can look cool in front of their peers. Catcalling an attractive woman simply makes them feel more like a man. They think they're entitled to a woman's attention, especially if she's wearing something that accentuates her body, because after all, she was asking for it then, no? And so, they do it a fuck lot.
These men, once they say something to get her attention, expect her to react to it, so they can escalate. And they ALWAYS escalate. Escalate can mean anything from asking for their number, to grabbing their wrists, to yelling vulgar slurs. Do you sincerely think, that if a man said "Good day to you!" or "You look beautiful," and the woman had responded by saying "Good day to you too," or "Thank you," the man would have stopped at that? No. They never do. Watch this video to see how the harassment continues once the woman 'politely' answers and declines their invitations.
Since you have never experienced this, and it is difficult for you to place yourself into the mindset that a woman has (who has much more to fear from men, than you do), let's put it this way. Imagine you're on your way to work, and you get on the train, bus, or subway. Once you get out, and try to find the exit, you see a man standing there, handing out fliers. Geez, one of those annoying people again, you might think. Best to avoid them and not make eye-contact, right? Because, when you make eye-contact, they most certainly will hand you a flier, no? So you keep your head down and try to walk past them so you can get to the exit. But unfortunately, the man isn't having none of that, and you were the closest person, so he approaches you.
"Hey there sir, would you like to come to our Halloween party?"
You briskly shake your head, and say, "No thanks." You try to sidestep him.
The man follows your steps, and shoves the flier in front of you. "It will be a huge event, there's even a prize for the best costume!" You don't fucking care about Halloween costumes, and just want to get out of there. So you say, "I'm not interested." But the man is still holding his flier in front of you. Why isn't he leaving you alone, and why does he keep getting closer to you!? You wish dearly he'd just leave you the fuck alone, and get the hell away from you because you value your personal space.
Eventually the man finds a new target to bother, and leaves you alone.
The key difference in this example of the flier man, and men catcalling women - is that the man with the flier has no personal interest in you, and will approach anyone near enough. The catcalling men will only approach women, and they will NOT leave them alone even after a polite thanks, but no thanks. Can you imagine how awful it would have been if the man with the fliers would follow you around? If he were standing so close to you, his skin is brushing up against yours? And what if he were to suddenly get angry for you ignoring him? "Just take the damn flier, it's just a flier!" (i.e. "It's just a compliment, bitch!") And what if he gets violent? Grabbing your wrist so you can't go anywhere? You'd feel uncomfortable, alarmed, and just want them to leave you alone, right?
Still don't get why those remarks she gets several times a day just walking down the street are harassment? Have you ever been to Paris? Rome? Any other tourist-y city? Well, they have these scam artists preying on tourists at popular sites. One such scam is tying a bracelet around someone's arm/finger/whatever, and then demanding they pay for it. Watch this video to see it in action. The scam artist approached someone with an ulterior motive (wanting to get money out of them), and once the person gave ANY indication that the scam artist wasn't a ghost (eye contact, "no thanks" etc.), the scam artist had the green go and tied the bracelet around this man's finger. Now he's trapped. You most definitely agree this is harassment, no? Imagine if every time you walked somewhere, these scam artists were waiting for you on every corner of the street. You try your best to avoid eye-contact with them, to ignore them when they try and engage with you, and walk past them. You are constantly bombarded with greetings, people following you, people eventually name-calling you for ignoring them etc. etc. ... This is, by the by, harassment.
So then why do men who constantly harass women for their attention get a pass for saying "They're just innocent remarks, they're not threatening, they're compliments!"
It doesn't matter what has been said, the point is, these men think it's okay to call out at a woman passing by. And once they get a response, they will further engage her when she clearly wants to be left alone. These situations escalate, and almost any woman can tell you a tale of when she was harassed that one time by a guy who just wouldn't leave her the fuck alone.
Life in public is different for a woman - she has to constantly be on guard whenever a man catcalls her. She doesn't know if this man meant a friendly hello, or if this man is going to pursue her till her car and switch over into physical sexual harassment. Because her experience dictates; men who catcall her want her body, and they can be a threat to herself if she rejects them (this is why many women will hand out their phone number so that the man will finally leave her alone).
These women get scared (because many escalate with angry remarks, and at worst, get violent) whenever someone approaches them like that. They don't know if they can make it out unharmed, because they don't know if this person will stop if they are rejected. So what do many countless women do when they're out in public? They try to make it seem they either can't hear you, or they are too busy to notice you.
Next time you're out in public, especially on a bus, train or subway, watch the women around you. Watch how many of them wear earbuds, or are reading a book, or are fooling around on their phone. They don't just do this because they're bored - they do this so that they won't get approached by men."
[–]nomdplumeRed Pill Lone Wolf 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)
This comment explains it really well
You linked to a post about harassment? WTF does that have to do with what I wrote?
Firstly, it's a huge mistake to assume "harassment." There is an enormous difference between harassment and other social interactions.
And it would be, again, neurotic of me to think that the only reason a woman is chatting with me is because she is frozen in fear. I don't know many people, men or women, who are good at conversation and small talk when they are terrified of the person with whom they are making conversation.
Incidentally, I know most of what you posted. And, incidentally, none of that has anything to do with me, nor most of the women I know, who are not shrinking violets who quiver in terror at the idea of someone saying "Hello!" to them. That is a crazy stereotype of women to maintain, though I get that "white knights" do everything in their power to paint women with that brush so as to justify their aggressive "protector" inclinations.
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (11子コメント)
Ok, but you do realize that you're engaging in some pretty hardcore confirmation bias, right? If someone tells you that "women like to be pursued aggressively" and you do this, then the women who don't like that will reject you and the women who do will respond well not because they're women, but because of the way their personalities work. Being sexist isn't what's working, finding women who are receptive to your approach is what's working.
women give shitty dating advice to men.
Like what, specifically? Because if you take some really specific piece of advice and use it thinking that it'll work on everyone, of course that won't happen, because people are different.
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (10子コメント)
Ok, but you do realize that you're engaging in some pretty hardcore confirmation bias, right?
How would you suggest that I confirm or deny that? Perhaps a peer reviewed, double-blind study of my sex life, pitting TRP ideas against a control?
[–]Pills-Pills-Pills 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (6子コメント)
Well, what's one piece of advice that women have given you, how did you follow it, and what happened as a result?
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (5子コメント)
Please answer my question regarding proving or disproving confirmation bias first. Thank you!
Technically I asked you first, but I'll oblige.
I don't listen to the dating advice that women give, because they're women. Turns out to be a fucking fantastic idea because women give shitty dating advice to men.
I don't know you personally and I don't really have much to work on, so...Think about a specific topic related to dating, and look for advice from women. What are they? Are they geared toward individuals, or toward all men? What do they say, specifically, and how did you interpret it? Look for advice by women that contradicts your notion of what "women's advice" is. Can you find any? Why or why not? Have you ever seen dating advice that by a man that's bad, that contradicts with "men's advice?" Why or why not?
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (3子コメント)
Absolutely I have found advice, from women, that contradicts my notion of what women's advice is. But I can only find it serendipitously, and I only notice it now that I have a reasonable set of tools of my own.
How does this help prove (or disprove) my confirmation bias?
"Advice from women sucks" is an example of confirmation bias because individual women are more different from each other than they as a whole are different from men as a whole. Women have different personalities, outlooks on dating, approaches to dating, etc: if, generally, all advice from all women looks the same to you, then it's confirmation bias. Is this the same as this? No.
[–]wub1234[S] -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9日前 (2子コメント)
Correct, it's impossible to confirm it. But what Pills says is correct, you cannot know that it was your approach that worked. All you can know is the result. For all you know, the woman / women in question simply liked the look of you. Hence the fact it doesn't work with all women, or even 50%.
[–]gainzndamezRed Pill Man 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 9日前 (1子コメント)
OK, so I have before and after results. Before results were not good. After results are much better. Many other men report the same thing. Do you suggest that I continue with the things that I started that appear to have induced the "after" results?
Why or why not?
[–]wub1234[S] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9日前 (0子コメント)
I don't know what you did before.
My opinion is that if you approach lots of women, don't take rejection personally and maximise your physical attractiveness (the last one is optional but advisable) then you will be successful. You can do certain social skills-related things, but you can act in a way that is socially ridiculous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qc9BimT-M
And still get girls' numbers.
If what you're doing now is working for you then good for you, but no technique will work without sheer weight of numbers. And it's ultimately sheer weight of numbers that is working.
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