6
7

CMVCMV: Feminism is authoritarian, not libertarian. (self.PurplePillDebate)

gavinok が 投稿

https://youtu.be/5AF72JNbUKo?t=1m49s

My view is that, although feminism views on issues align with the left wing, their thought is authoritarian(see this), not libertarian. So in this video I found, entitled "Why I HATE People Who Aren't Feminists!", this feminist, goes over a lot of view points that are controlling, and authoritarian, that do not emphasize the freedoms of speech and thought that liberals desire.

If you say your not a feminist, there are only two possibilities. One, your a sexist, and a fucking awful scumbag. Or, your just ignorant, and haven't bothered to educate yourself, when all the resources are there right in front of you https://youtu.be/5AF72JNbUKo?t=2m54s

Here, this feminist is disallowing any other possible ideologies than feminism, or being non-feminist, thus restricting freedom of expression or will. This is similar to authoritarian aspects of Christianity, where if you do not accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to hell.

It's your job, It's your responsibility , not just for the sake of your mother's, your sisters, or your girlfriends, but you have a responsibility, for yourself, as a decent, model human being, to educate yourself about feminism. https://youtu.be/5AF72JNbUKo?t=4m27s

Ok, so now, in order to be a model human being, feminism must be included in there. It's a responsibility. No other choices. Someone must learn about feminism to be a decent person. This utterly and total authoritarian thought. Not allowing for multiple models of decent human beings, cutting off freedom of expression and thought. NOT LIBERAL.

And don't tell me, you just believe in equal rights, but you don't like the word feminism. Who gives a flying fuck if you don't like the word? https://youtu.be/5AF72JNbUKo?t=4m53s

Now, this is the ultimate bomb right here, which even sounds like totalitarianism. She is removing the right of people to decide how they speak, and saying she does not care about what people think, they have to use that word. This is no literally no different than Kim Jong Il forcing North Korean citizens to say his name every morning or else be shot and killed.

Overall, my view is that feminism, is an authoritarian movement. Challenge my view.

全 71 件のコメント
並べ替え:
トップ
ベスト新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]MtDewCodeRed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is no literally no different than Kim Jong Il forcing North Korean citizens to say his name every morning or else be shot and killed.

Perspective: this sentence is in reference to the vlog of what appears to be a 19 year old goth girl.

I'm not gonna reference three timestamps to critically dissect her thought because honestly I dont give a shit and you shouldnt either.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

It's actually collectivist, and stems from socialist theory, rather than authoritarian or libertarian.

[–]drok007Anti-Blue Pill [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Yes, this is correct. However, much of feminism still does lean authoritarian over libertarian though. Authoritarian aligns with socialism much better than libertarian.

Inb4 libertarian left

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Libertarian left? I thought they were called anarchists.

[–]findingmrnemoUnruly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Feminism by its very nature can never be libertarian.

[–]questioningwomanthe queen of intellect ;) [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I'm willing to use both feminism and capitalism to get what I want. It doesn't make me conformist or brainwashed. It makes me smart. I'll use the former to get to the top and then drop it once they want some of my money or goods to be redistributed ;) I care more about my own opportunities than mass equality or mass inequality. It's funny how you consider this brainwashed when getting exactly what you want is OK for men according to you. It's not because of the "you go girl" media, it's because I know it's better for me to have more than less and why would I ever turn down the opportunity to have more? I'd be really dumb to. Even if it was socially unacceptable, I'd rather be hated and get whatever I wanted while people bitched and moaned and lived the good life until I collapsed.

[–]drok007Anti-Blue Pill [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I never said you were brainwashed, you are just delusional. It's just not a unique kind of crazy. I've seen it before.

[–]questioningwomanthe queen of intellect ;) [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

What exactly am I delusional about?

[–]drok007Anti-Blue Pill [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Everything you say. I find it hard to find something you say that is rooted in reality. You don't seem to understand what is going on, and your "plans" reflect that.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]drok007Anti-Blue Pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    No, I understand that some people are capable. Just not you.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    If the movement would just own up to what it really is (women's empowerment) rather than what it claims to be (equality) I wouldn't have much of a gripe. But when it openly lies to the public and shames men into the false dichotomy of "either you're a feminist or you don't believe in equality" that's when your movement starts sounding more like the Trump campaign.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Ironically, it's a paternalistic ideology.

    [–]ArthurMacArthur [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    This is no literally no different than Kim Jong Il forcing North Korean citizens to say his name every morning or else be shot and killed.

    This girl on YouTube. How many divisions does she have?

    [–]appencapndefender of fee fees [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    this is no literally no different than Kim Jong Il forcing North Korean citizens to say his name every morning or else be shot and killed.

    If you are being serious I literally don't know how anyone can change your view. An idiotic girl representing her own strain of feminism bitching in a youtube video you choose to watch is not equivalent to being born into fucking North Korea.

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Feminism is a thousand things. And a million people with widely different and opposing views. It makes no sense to talk about feminism like it is a single whole.

    You can say that the feminism that this girl represents is totalitarian. Which certainly seems to be the case. Other kinds of feminists are nothing like her.

    [–]circlhat [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    This is a logically fallacy feminist often employ to confuse people, this is like saying Nazi's are thousands of different things. And if you study their culture you will find Nazi's that don't hate the jews but rather love their heritage.

    Fact is though the use of feminism many men are in prison as women organizers made sure men who fall behind on their child support go to prison.

    They also support life time alimony , calling it a women's right

    They trivialize female on male rape by calling it unwanted contact.

    All this under the banner of feminism

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    This is a logically fallacy

    No, it’s a fact. I agree that quite a lot of feminists are obnoxious and borderline retards. But there’re simply so many different – and often opposing - viewpoints that the term feminism has all become empty of meaning. Personally I consider feminism a libertarian freedom ideology and anything which isn’t also 100% libertarian is not feminism.

    They also support life time alimony

    Some do. Some don't. "feminists againt alimony" gets quie a few google hits. Incidentally have you checked out Individualist feminism for instance?

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The thing is it doesn't really matter what you think feminism is suppose to be or what some blogger thinks it suppose to be. Instead we should look at the prominent feminist organizations and see their positions. Its no different than looking to the GOP to understand what Republicanism stands for as opposed to asking some random dude in the country.

    In doing so we can understand that feminism most certainly is not "a libertarian freedom ideology" and instead a paternalistic anti-freedom ideology that believes the government needs to involve itself in safeguarding individuals lest all women become victimized. The simple, incontrovertible truth is that they want laws and regulations restricting the freedom of other people for the benefit of women.

    [–]alreadyredschoolNon-Binary Genderfluid Multigender [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The last one is great. Imagine some dude objectifying/abuse/rape a woman. And BOTH are feminists. Making everyone a feminist isn't helping their cause, it's confusing and waters down the message.

    [–]midnightvulpine [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I doubt anything will change your view, you don't seem very open to anything. But I can challenge your methodology. You're taking one video by some random women on Youtube to make a broad claim about Feminism. That would be equivalent to me taking Paul Elam and one of his nasty videos and pointing at that to make aspersions on the MRM based on his worst behavior online. Or any number of other caustic individuals who associate themselves with the MRM.

    No one person defines a movement.

    [–]RareBlur [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    My view is that, although feminism views on issues align with the left wing, their thought is authoritarian(see this), not libertarian.

    I think you mean Liberal or Liberalism which is usually viewed as left wing. Libertarians are usually viewed as right wing.

    freedoms of speech and thought that liberals desire.

    Since when do liberals desire such things? What country are you speaking from because this can make a difference on the meaning of the terms.

    Liberal being left of center desires larger government control over the populace. libertarian desires individual freedom and smaller government. Unless you mean classical liberalism from which both derive. The difference being that one side desires enforcement of "rights" and the other desires that individuals protect their own rights.

    Feminism is left of center, desiring government regulation to enforce "equality."

    liberalism is next to socialism which is next to communism.

    [–]gavinok[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

    Liberalism does promote freedoms of speech, expression, press and more. I think perhaps your thinking of progressivism. Look at the chart in my OP. I am speaking from America.

    [–]findingmrnemoUnruly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Libertarians are usually viewed as right wing.

    Even tho they are not.

    [–]ThrowawayCactus6012 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Overall, my view is that feminism, is an authoritarian movement. Challenge my view.

    The difference may be a matter of how feminism is presented theoretically versus how it actually turns out in practice by those who espouse that view.

    Also, those who feel oppressed or that they're the underdog fighting against the power, they may apply a different set of rules to themselves than they would to those who hold power. Those who have a revolutionary mindset might think that way, as well as someone who leads a small nation taking on one or more major powers.

    Another situation might be is if a country gets invaded or faces some great crisis, the government might declare martial law or impose greater restrictions on civil liberties because the situation is dire enough to warrant it. Whether it qualifies as authoritarian depends on how permanent it is.

    Theoretically, if feminism is just about gender equality (as in, equality before the law) and nothing else, then it would not be authoritarian. However, just about any belief system has its true believers and fanatics, and that's what this person sounds like.

    [–]gavinok[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    if feminism is just about gender equality (as in, equality before the law) and nothing else, then it would not be authoritarian.

    My issue is, all of the feminists I have met, or listened to speak, are affirmative that one cannot declare themselves not a feminist, and still believe in equal rights between genders. That feminism is the only possible route to gender equality. To me, unless feminists actually acknowledge other views, for the good or the bad, this is essentially authoritarian.

    [–]AutoModeratorPurple Pill Machine...literally[M] [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

    Attention!

    • You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.

    • For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.

    • If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.

    • OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

    Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

    I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

    [–]MorphineOralSolution10mg/5ml [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'd pretend to be a feminist to fuck the girl in that video. Fuck yeah I'm down.

    [–]duckyhunteryou can go your own way [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Feminism is just cultural Marxism.

    Women are dumb, so they're naturally drawn to it.

    [–]RareBlur [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    oh just like men and TRP.

    [–]findingmrnemoUnruly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    TRP is just cultural Fascism.

    Men are dumb, so they're naturally drawn to it.

    [–]5th_Law_of_Robotics [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

    I guess I'll have to reply here.

    Feminism is absolutely authoritarian. At no point have they suggested anything that would reduce the size or scope of government. They're preferred reforms to the legal system would strip away centuries of legal protections. And so on.

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

    Suffrage is authoritarian? Right to abortion is authoritarian?

    [–]5th_Law_of_Robotics [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing current reality.

    Tell me, when did women get the right to vote in the US? 2015?

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    You were mistaken. You were describing feminism. If you want to discuss feminism as it is practised in 2016 USA, then say so - and tell me how right to abortion is authoritarian. That is absolutely an issue which is current in the USA.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    You're being purposefully disingenuous and pedantic.

    I don't think any rational person can say abortion is a big issue in the US. Follow the election cycle, no one is talking about it on either side and no one in the US is seriously being denied an abortion.

    [–]gavinok[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    Libertarian and authoritarian are thought processes and philosophies. The issues you mention are on the left and right wing spectrum. One can be for abortion, but view it in an authoritarian way, where for example, those who are against abortion are described as waging a war on women, when they are in fact just expressing their personal beliefs.

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Saying nasty things about those that disagree with you is nasty - and too often found with many feminists. However saying nasty things does not compare to doing nasty things. Limiting a woman's right to abortion is anti-libetarian.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Limiting a woman's right to abortion is anti-libetarian.

    Let's play devil's advocate shall we:

    Limiting a child's right to be born is anti-libertarian.

    See how easy that was?

    The thing I hate the most about the abortion debate is that neither side is willing to even accept the basic reality that the other side has a rational point to be made. It's akin to debating the Israel-Palestine situation with Jews or Palestinians. Abortion is a natural dilemma. Pretending it's not a dilemma just makes you look like an idiot.

    [–]Atlas_B_Shrugginyou are all wrong and i am right [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    forcing the legalization of abortion onto the individual states via a bad bootstrapping supreme court decision instead of allowing the natural progression of its legalization state by state is authoritarian. and in the US, thats what happened

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    I agree that the US approach was deeply flawed. And personally I'm not that pro-abortion anyway. But can't really see what difference it does to the individual what the supreme court do to various subnational states. US States are not individuals. Libertarian care about personal freedom, not the power of various regional organisation systems.

    [–]Atlas_B_Shrugginyou are all wrong and i am right [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    i dont understand your response

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    But can't really see what difference it does to the individual what the supreme court do to various subnational states

    Individuals in a particular "subnational state" have a voice in electing those legislators who in turn decide the laws. Those people do not have as much of a voice, if any voice at all, in determining who will be a supreme court justice.

    [–]Atlas_B_Shrugginyou are all wrong and i am right [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    OK but feminism has never pretended to be libertarian, so your post is confusing

    [–]girlcherryWomen and men deserve respect [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    There are different kinds of feminists. Some feminists will not be misandrist, others will be.

    I am a woman but not a feminist. I am an equalitarian, I think all human beings deserve respect, and instead of fighting for women's rights we should all be fighting for equal rights, respect, safety and dignity for EVERYBODY.

    If EVERYBODY is respected, women will be respected too. If EVERYBODY is protected from violence, women will be protected from violence too. If EVERYBODY can vote, go to school, work, and earn the same salary, women will do that as well.

    That's what some feminazis don't understand.

    You don't need particular laws exclusively for women's rights. If you make laws that are applicable to everybody, it's obvious they will be applicable to women.

    If the world followed the Illuminist principles (liberté, egalité, fraternité), it wouldn't be the mess it is nowadays.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    So you're basically the All Lives Matter analogous in the BLM situation when it comes to feminism. I suppose they should call you a sexist in that case.

    [–]girlcherryWomen and men deserve respect [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    When you believe in equality, you don't believe in sexism.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Certainly you should understand that the contemporary dispute is not over "whether you believe in equality" but rather regarding what "equality" means in practice.

    [–]girlcherryWomen and men deserve respect [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I know what equality means in practice. That's why I defend it.

    [–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I don't even really disagree with your conclusion, but this is some girl on Youtube. She's not even popular, only 8 thousand views in the year it's been up. She apparently had to disable comments from people "wishing death on her", so a lot of those views are probably people who disagree.

    You'd probably be able to make a lot more persuasive argument if you looked at popular feminist positions, or a famous and popular feminist. This isn't too different than saying this comment shows that reds actually wish death on women.

    [–]VermiciousKnidzzBlue Pill Man [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    If you say your not a feminist, there are only two possibilities. One, your a sexist, and a fucking awful scumbag. Or, your just ignorant, and haven't bothered to educate yourself, when all the resources are there right in front

    truth. likewise, if someone tells me they don't support equal rights for people of color, they are likewise either a horrible person or ignorant. p simple.

    Ok, so now, in order to be a model human being, feminism must be included in there. It's a responsibility.

    this is because human rights are important for everyone, not just straight white dudes.

    This is no literally no different than Kim Jong Il forcing North Korean citizens to say his name every morning or else be shot and killed.

    no one is saying that people who dont call themselves feminists literally deserve the death penalty. no one.

    [–]DaphneDKPump and dump on the first date [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    truth

    Yes, if by truth you mean false, then truth. Getting their collective knickers in a twist over a colourful shirt by some dude in ESA, or getting outraged over some old guy telling a joke which with some insistence possible could be misunderstood if quoted incorrectly, or fucking around with a mattres on campus terming yourself mattress girl and calling an innocent man a rapists. Yeah, those are all feminists - and fucking stupid too. You can disagree without being an awful scumbag or a horrible person. Actually agreeing makes you a scumbag.

    [–]gavinok[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    truth. likewise, if someone tells me they don't support equal rights for people of color, they are likewise either a horrible person or ignorant. p simple.

    Feminism IS NOT the sole owner of the thoughts about equal rights. It is one of the many, many ideals and ideologies that are conducive to providing equal rights. Feminism saying you must be a feminism to support equal gender rights is giving no liberal freedom of thought or expression.

    this is because human rights are important for everyone, not just straight white dudes.

    Feminism does not own the right to support human rights. This is a totalitarian idea. One can think of supporting basic human rights in many thoughts and fashions. Just like Malcolm X and MLK Jr. both wanted equality between blacks and whites, but they had different ideas of how to achieve that.

    [–]RU_Crazy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    if someone tells me they don't support equal rights for people of color

    How hard is it to understand that the current debate is not over whether people are entitled to equal rights but rather, what "equal rights" actually means in practice?

    Equality in opportunity is desirable. Equality in outcome is tyranny. We've more or less solved the former and now the fight is increasingly over the latter. If that's your notion of equality, then you sir are the true "horrible person or ignorant. p simple".

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

    She says it all when she starts the video. That all feminism is is the equality of the sexes.

    If you said that people of all cultural backgrounds should be equal as human beings, and that anyone who doesn't believe that is racist, would you consider that authoritarian?

    Yes there is no other valid view other than equality between the sexes. She's right.

    I don't identify as a feminist because it gives people the kneejerk reaction such as gavinok above. I think we need a new word.

    [–]UA_HammerRed Dead Redemption [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Yes there is no other valid view other than equality between the sexes. She's right.

    There's also men and women are very different and should be treated very differently. You're actually operating on this now, since I'm sure if an mra made a similar video about that movement you'd pan him for being a crazy whining shitlord.

    Do you think men and women have the same capacity for physical strength?

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    There's also men and women are very different and should be treated very differently.

    Different yes. Equal as human beings, yes.

    Do you think men and women have the same capacity for physical strength?

    'Equal as human beings"

    Do you think every culture has the same physical strength and ability among men?

    [–]UA_HammerRed Dead Redemption [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Different yes. Equal as human beings, yes.

    Good, we're getting somewhere. So, if women are weaker physically, but equal overall, where do they do better than men to even it out?

    Do you think every culture has the same physical strength and ability among men?

    A cursory glance at top tier sports, where second best is not an option, makes this really obvious.

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    So, if women are weaker physically

    I didn't say they're weaker physically. Women have more endurance and bear the babies. But that's beside the point.

    We're equal as humans - there is no need to "even it out".

    A cursory glance at top tier sports, where second best is not an option, makes this really obvious.

    I was asking for your opinion.

    [–]UA_HammerRed Dead Redemption [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Women have more endurance

    Citation needed

    But that's beside the point. We're equal as humans - there is no need to "even it out".

    You've lost me. I use the mathematical definition of equality. Someone who is equal to me is capable of the same things. Not exactly the same, but in the ballpark. Approximate equality. Genetic congruence maybe? Maybe they don't have the same learned skills but they have the potential to obtain if they applied their time differently.

    You've acknowledged physical sexual dimorphism already so you know by this definition men and women aren't equal. So then I thought maybe your definition of equality is that they have different positive traits but have the same net value to society or something. But you don't like that either.

    What the hell is equality to you, then? I'm very confused

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Citation needed

    Life. Women outlive men.

    You've lost me. I use the mathematical definition of equality. Someone who is equal to me is capable of the same things.

    Strange comment, dude. Equal as in the respect accorded to a human being.

    You've acknowledged physical sexual dimorphism already so you know by this definition men and women aren't equal.

    Not all men are equal to each other in physical size or ability. It's silly to try to equate "equality as human beings" with the physical.

    What the hell is equality to you, then? I'm very confused

    Am done with this conversation. You're not debating honestly.

    [–]diFFzee [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    She says it all when she starts the video. That all feminism is is the equality of the sexes.

    So how are the sexes legally not equal? I mean in western societies, don't start quoting me sharia law.

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    How are different cultures not equal? It's a wide subject, right? So is feminism.

    All that is being said is "men and women are equal as human beings" and that's what feminism is.

    As I said, how can anyone not support that idea?

    [–]diFFzee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    how can anyone not support that idea?

    Sure, someone that believes the genders are already equal can find that idea superfluous.

    [–]gavinok[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    All that is being said is "men and women are equal as human beings" and that's what feminism is.

    But it's not. Feminism is a political and ideological movement to achieve "men and women are equal as human beings". There are many, many, many ways to achieve that goal. Many different ways of thinking about it, many opinions, many perspectives. The definition of equality is very ambiguous as well. Some woman might want men to pay for them on dates, yet still support equality.

    People can support ideas through many different ways. Feminism claiming its the only route to gender equality is an inherently authoritarian idea.

    [–]TheScienceOfLight [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    But you don't have to agree with a lot of feminists or what they do to accept the basic idea that the sexes should be equal.

    What other route to equality has played out in our society? Men haven't started up an equality drive, so it was up to women to do so.