全 170 件のコメント

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (5子コメント)

As something of a postscript to this meta-submission, I would like to direct attention to the very rule-abiding coverage of this story by the Canadian media.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 38ポイント39ポイント  (22子コメント)

The mods of CanadaPolitics just removed an article from Brietbart

Yes, we did. While the article would have likely been permissible had it stuck to factual reporting, it also very much blurred the lines between reporting and commentary. In the middle of describing events, it went on to define, demean, and dismiss the impugned protestors using insulting language that would have very likely resulted in the removal of even a mainstream media editorial.

Since the factual reporting was not an issue, the submitter (or anyone else) is welcome to submit a proper news media article on the subject of the protest.

This disappoints me greatly, this is supposed to be a sub that promotes Free Speech and intelligent debate.

We promote civil debate. That has a significant overlap with intelligent debate, but it is certainly not a superset of that. In fact, I'd like to call civil debate a proper subset of intelligent debate, but that's more what rule 3 is about than rule 2.

The mods didn't remove that post until 17 hours after it was posted.

Believe it or not, Sunday is a rather slow period in the subreddit, including moderators' participation. I for one apologize for the untimeliness of the removal, and in the future I will personally endeavour to remove rule-breaking articles like that one more promptly.

[–]bcbuddy 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

With that rationale this subreddit should be removing ALL editorials and commentary, by picking a choosing which editorials and columnist are "sanitary", you are shaping the flow of speech in the mods favour.

IMHO Heather Mallick's and Michael Harris' columns, which are regularly posted here regular demean and dismiss certain groups.

The only difference is that they are "well known" enough to be given a platform to express their inflammatory views.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

IMHO Heather Mallick's and Michael Harris' columns, which are regularly posted here regular demean and dismiss certain groups.

And editorials from both of those authors are not-infrequently removed for rule 2. As a rough estimate, I'd give Michael Harris about a 50/50 shot at being within our bounds of decency on any given day.

[–]TealSwinglineStaplerTeal Staplers 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does anyone know what he is doing now after Harper lost?

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (17子コメント)

Majromax, I understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate the response, but I want to address a few things.

In the middle of describing events, it went on to define, demean, and dismiss the impugned protestors using insulting language that would have very likely resulted in the removal of even a mainstream media editorial.

The article was criticizing the actions of certain individuals; unfortunately, there are members of these crowds that share some similarities with authoritarians, and there's no polite way to call them out on it. Being civil is part of how these individuals have become so powerful; many people who exhibit these characteristics are quick to attack another person's character (or their identity, as the did with Lauren in the video), to outright dismiss their point instead of engaging with their ideas.

Since the factual reporting was not an issue, the submitter (or anyone else) is welcome to submit a proper news media article on the subject of the protest.

I'd agree, but there are not many people who will cover this story. That's part of the problem; Left leaning media will rally behind any woman who they think has been wronged. We saw just the other day an article on the front page talking about sexism within the restaurant industry.

So why isn't anyone else covering this? The media will rush out to demonize anti-abortion protesters as that's a fashionable view to have, but when a woman with controversial views is assaulted at an anti-free speech protest, there's silence. As Brietbart is a heavy promoter of Free Speech, no matter how offensive, of course they would cover it.

I for one apologize for the untimeliness of the removal

I appreciate this, since we've now lost many good conversations that were had. The article may have had some offensive language, but generally we were all quite civil in that thread.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

The article was criticizing the actions of certain individuals; unfortunately, there are members of these crowds that share some similarities with authoritarians, and there's no polite way to call them out on it.

... and there you go. Both you and the author of the removed article have generalized from the actions of a few individuals, to assumptions about their personalities, to pronouncements against a broad ideology.

Polite language isn't just a veneer of decency, it also helps force debaters to narrow down their real points. Insults and overbroad labels such as 'SJW' are shorthand for arguments that may well be worth having but are skipped in service of scoring points.

I'd agree, but there are not many people who will cover this story.

If the "left leaning media" aren't covering this news story, then it's a real shame that the "right leaning media" has so far done such a poor job of covering it we can't accept the impugned submission.

The media will rush out to demonize anti-abortion protesters as that's a fashionable view to have, but when a woman with controversial views is assaulted at an anti-free speech protest, there's silence. As Brietbart is a heavy promoter of Free Speech, no matter how offensive, of course they would cover it.

Speaking less as a moderator here, I encourage you to examine your assumptions: here you label the left-leaning media as motivated by "fashion," but the right-leaning media is motivated by a purer respect for "Free Speech." That's a very bold claim to be making, but it's not one that's self-evident to a distant observer.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

... and there you go. Both you and the author of the removed article have generalized from the actions of a few individuals, to assumptions about their personalities, to pronouncements against a broad ideology.

I'm using a descriptor to describe individuals who exhibit certain behaviors. I am not assigning it to a group of people, I'm assigning it to individuals. There is a clear difference. When these individuals are called social justice warriors, those reading get an understanding of the kinds of things I'm talking about.

This is how language works. When we say wooden chair, we know that it most likely has four legs, and is made of wood. When we say social justice warrior, we know generally that they are individuals who want to censor free speech, silence people with differing points of view, these sorts of things.

Problem is, if this was an isolated instance, it would be appropriate to go through point by point the various actions these individuals take. But this is becoming a repeated pattern of individuals showing the same behaviors over and over again. Hence the term.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 14ポイント15ポイント  (14子コメント)

unfortunately, there are members of these crowds that share some similarities with authoritarians, and there's no polite way to call them out on it.

Yes there is. There is always a way to say something politely.

In fact, you just did it. The people being described aren't going to say "YEAH! That's right, I'm an authoritarian!", but it's a polite way of saying it. There are many other ways too.

Polite does not mean "person will embrace and agree with my description".

Left leaning media will rally behind any woman who they think has been wronged.

Some will. And some right leaning writers will immediately rally against any challenge to "their" establishment. Terence Corcoran is an obvious example of this. I always know which side he will be on. He's on the side of the wealthy business establishment. (Not business, or capitalism, I mean wealthy business establishment.) Every. Single. Time. No exceptions. Sometimes his argument is easy and well defended. Other times, his argument is so convoluted and weak it's embarrassing to read. But no matter what, right or wrong... he's on the side of the rich business establishment. He's so obviously biased that I dread the times he's defending a view I agree with.

This is just a partisan true believer. And yes the left has them too.

So why isn't anyone else covering this?

It's unfortunate no one else is. It would have been a good discussion, but that didn't change the fact that the Brietbart submission wasn't in line with our rules because of how it was written.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

In any case, this place has always been aiming for "respectful discussion between people who disagree". Expecting it to be something else is like wondering why you can't get a great beer at Starbucks.

Thanks for the response. I'd be inclined to agree if you and Majromax stopped conflating my point. Of course everything can be said politely; this is without question, of course it is. Thing is, you are assuming that the writers are putting these individuals who were protesting under the same banner. There are many names for them; social justice warriors; regressive lefts; cultural authoritarians.

The label doesn't matter, its their actions that do. It was individual protesters who stopped a man who was going to give a talk from crossing the border; who dismissed Lauren because of her identity, her perceived privilege; who assaulted a reporter because she has an offensive view.

Of course, there are peaceful activists on both sides, as peaceful protest is their Civil Right to do. Its when their actions infringe on peoples rights where they should be called out.

So, of course I'm going to speak out when you guys delete a post because of its offensive language. If that's the case, every time you see an article that talks about male privilege, or pervasive systemic oppression, or you see someone insulting a person's identity when they try and voice a differing point of view, you should start deleting their posts as well. Free speech is a two way street.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

So you object to the rules requiring politeness.

Just be aware that that will never change under any circumstances.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yes, I object to rules that are a subjective view of what constitutes polite speech and impolite speech. It means the difference between Free Speech, which is protected under the constitution, and Hate Speech, which is not.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's unfortunate for you, but the sub isn't going to change.

You're walking into a sushi restaurant and protesting that we don't have roast beef on the menu.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's fine, I can't change how you run your sub. But nothing ever changes without protest.

[–]croserobinProvincially Selected Senate 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm just imagining someone picketing a sushi restaurant with signs chastising their lack of roast beef

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha, certainly an amusing image. :)

[–]lemmoxLiberal 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Without endorsing your view that this sub doesn't have "free speech" in any meaningful way, you're clearly in the wrong sub. As multiple mods have told you, this is a foundational part of this sub's reason for existence.

[–]LittlestHobot 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

It was individual protesters who stopped a man who was going to give a talk from crossing the border

Protesters generally have no authority at the border. So how did their shadowy, powerful influence reach Canadian Border Services? Especially as individuals.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Good question. Part of it was through the court of public opinion. These were the reasons as to why the Canadian Border Services denied him entry:

The Canada Border Services Agency interrogated him for three-and-a-half hours on Friday, he said, asking “about my affiliation with neo-Nazis, about the charges of Fascism, and about allegations of racism.”

He's a lawyer who has represented neo-Nazi's. This isn't illegal. And the allegations of Fascism and racism came from somewhere.

I mean, the same thing happened to Roosh V, who canceled his talks because of petitions and threats of violence from certain individuals. I mean, I don't like Roosh V or what he has to say, I think he's deplorable, but I would defend his free speech, and I would not condone violence being done against him.

[–]LittlestHobot 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

the allegations of Fascism and racism came from somewhere.'

Well, certainly some of them came from the Florida chair of the libertarian party:

"“Many of his supporters are known members of Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups, such as American Front, Vinelanders and Stormfront, and he has been recruiting them into the Libertarian Party,” Wyllie said Thursday on Facebook."

But that's just one guy's opinion. Nobody is really sure what this guy is all about. But the website for his senatorial bid has some interesting touches. You'll see there's a screaming eagle encircled by an imperial laurel, and the eagle is perched on a bundle of sticks. That bundle of sticks, called a fascis has a very particular contemporary historical meaning.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Sure, I'm not disputing that, though if he were a true Libertarian, then calling him a Fascist is abhorrently wrong. They are polar opposites. Libertarians believe in a person's individual rights above all else, even the group. Fundamentally, to infringe on an individual's rights in favour of the collective is sacrosanct.

There is also a deep irony by protesting a Fascist by no-platformed them. Censoring peoples speech is one tool of the authoritarian.

[–]LastBestWestPrairie Pragmatist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

There is also a deep irony by protesting a Fascist by no-platformed them. Censoring peoples speech is one tool of the authoritarian.

You yourself made the distinction between "Free Speech and Hate Speech" when discussing censorship. Fascism, in practice, has always promoted hate against some group of people, so I don't see how CBSA looking into this guy is an issue. It's no different than then do their due diligence with, say, a radical imam who uses ISIS symbols (but is not part of ISIS) and has a large following among ISIS supporters.

Also, I have to ask: why do you always capitalize "Free Speech?"

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I capitalize Free Speech because that's how strongly I feel about it. I want to emphasize it. Anyway, CBSA has every right to look in to this guy. I agree with you here.

I understand the principles of Hate Speech laws, as we should all be polite to each other, but I don't think the government should have the power to police language. The ultimate problem with Hate Speech laws is that they are good in theory, as most things are in theory, but there are people who will use this power to their advantage to censor people they don't like. It's why you see people dismissing arguments by calling people bigots, racists and sexists; they can't debate their points, and so the people who do this try and socially isolate them instead. We saw this happen to Gregory Allen Eliot, when feminists tried to have him criminally charged for disagreeing with them online. Thankfully, he wasn't convicted, but the fact that certain people would even think this is justified, and that this spent years in court, is scary.

Anyway, that's an entirely different argument. I'm urging these people to not become what they hate. Fascism does not necessarily mean the promotion of hate against some groups. It's coincidence that certain people under this term have used it for hatred. It's also a horrible way to Govern, as it hurts peoples Liberties. The political definition of Fascism is:

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

So, to truly understand why what these individuals are doing, you need to understand what an authoritarian is.

Authoritarianism is marked by "indefinite political tenure" of the ruler or ruling party (often in a one-party state) or other authority. The transition from an authoritarian system to a more democratic form of government is referred to as democratization.

The people in power under authoritarian rule want nothing else but to stay in power. They do this by breaking up peaceful protests by force; by controlling language so that people that would challenge the status quo don't have a voice.

If you want to know what authoritarian governments look like in the 21st Century, look at what happened in Ukraine in 2013. The President of Ukraine denied a bill that would make Ukraine part of the EU. Ukrainian citizens gathered to peacefully protest a government policy, and the president sent the military police after the protesters. 96 days later, thousands of people had died. The protesters only acted in self defense; and the president fled the Country. He was willing to kill his own people to further his agenda.

If you don't think Freedom of Speech is sacrosanct, look at what happened in Pakistan. A politician was murdered in cold blood for wanting to reform blasphemy laws, and the people rallied behind the murderer.

This is the road we go down if we try and censor speech.

[–]dmoore13 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for covering my ears for me. I just can't handle things like caricature and rhetorical exaggeration. One of these days I'm sure it is going to literally give me a heart attack.

[–]undercover-cop 13ポイント14ポイント  (29子コメント)

This disappoints me greatly, this is supposed to be a sub that promotes Free Speech and intelligent debate.

Unfortunately this sub has never been that. Depending on the moods and biases of the moderators, you just can't predict what will be allowed, and what will be removed. This is not a sub for free speech.

For example, I recently had a post about the federal government surplus removed because it was "not substantive". Of course, the post was the very definition of substantive, and similar posts have been allowed and even promoted by the mod team in the past. Another post was removed without notice, no explanation given, but the reason is obvious.

This is not a sub for free speech. It is a tightly controlled echo chamber subject to the petty whims of the overzealous mod team, and they like it that way.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

Is there any place safe where people can intelligently debate without having their voices censored? I've posted this before, but I love Canada and I want whats best for our Country. I'm sure most people that are here feel the same, we just disagree on the best way to achieve that.

To have an intelligent debate, its imperative we listen to uncomfortable ideas so that we can actually challenge them. Echo chambers are dangerous, as it stops differing points of view from ever happening. I've seen mods complain months ago about the lack of points of view from the other side; that's what happens when you silence them, less and less will want to speak up until none of them are left. How is this productive?

[–]jtbcpipelines AND wind turbines 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is very little censorship and lots of political content in /r/Canada. The problem is the lack of moderation leads to generally lower content discussion than this sub, in my opinion (and in fact is the reason this sub was created).

It is very difficult balance to get right, which is why this sort of discussion comes up every couple of months or so. I am personally comfortable that the mods are doing the best they can to be fair in applying the rules and that most high content, civil, discussion is preserved. I say that as someone who has had quite a few comments removed for various rule violations. Almost always, it was clear to me that I had crossed one of the lines.

People have tried to create alternate subs with a different balance but, so far, none have really taken off. People are certainly free to try again, though.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

Is there any place safe where people can intelligently debate without having their voices censored?

Leaving aside the claim equating censorship with removing a comment for not abiding by community rules, the answer is yes.

You could have a place "where people can intelligently debate without having their voices censored". That would be a place that immediately ejected anyone who deviated from "intelligent debate" and never let them back in.

But I'd wonder if you'd also call that censorship, so maybe the answer is no.

Without removing comments or permanently ejecting people who misbehave, you eventually end up with /r/WorldNews once you grow large enough. Not exact "intelligent debate".


In any case, this place has always been aiming for "respectful discussion between people who disagree". Expecting it to be something else is like wondering why you can't get a great beer at Starbucks.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I appreciate the responses Issachar, I like hearing your point of view. Obviously, I can't tell you guys how to run your sub, but at this point we're arguing semantics about language.

Unfortunately, this is reddit and this is your community, and thus it operates differently than a public space, but the idea behind Free Speech is that all individuals should have a voice. Freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to offend. All protected under freedom of speech.

You and other mods have made the distinction between civil debate and intelligent debate. Being respectful is a principle we should all abide by, I agree with this. But you have made a concerted effort, I've noticed, to delete comments, threads and articles by certain organizations or people that do not speak favourably of certain individuals. Notice how I'm self censoring myself here? I have to be as delicate as possible when talking about this stuff.

Would you have deleted Brietbart's article if the writers looked at those individuals and their behaviors and called them the Peace Brigade? And said the Peace Brigade show similarities to authoritarians? What if they just outright called them authoritarians? This is the problem, these individuals aren't the only ones who behave this way. It's a growing pattern, and people want to call them out. The other article about Lauren that made it to the front page from the National Post doesn't even mention their actions. They don't comment on the conversation Lauren tried to have about their protest; they wouldn't talk to her because of her identity.

It's so lacking in information, and now that you've removed an article from Brietbart that actually talks about these things and mentioned the amount of abuse Lauren has received on social media after the fact, people who aren't familiar with whats going on don't get that story.

[–]Avantine [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Unfortunately, this is reddit and this is your community, and thus it operates differently than a public space, but the idea behind Free Speech is that all individuals should have a voice. Freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to offend. All protected under freedom of speech.

That's a very absolutist view of freedom of speech, though, wouldn't you say?

Freedom of speech need not include the freedom to offend, and freedom of speech need not provide a license to say anything you please.

If I create a magazine about tropical game fish, and I allow all submissions about tropical game fish but refuse submissions about fracking in North Dakota, I think I could quite rightly say that I, and my magazine, believe in and support freedom of speech.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Freedom to Offend is the most fundamental part of Freedom of Speech. There was one time in American history where it was deeply offensive to say that Black people were equal to White people. There was one time in our history where it was deeply offensive to the Fundamentally Religious establishment that it was morally right that a man be allowed to lay with a man.

The Freedom to Offend gives people the power to criticize the status quo without being thrown in to the gulag; without the government shooting you for what you say and believe.

[–]Avantine [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Freedom to Offend is the most fundamental part of Freedom of Speech.

I don't agree, and I think that that belief is fundamentally contrary to the modern concept of ordered liberty. Our liberties are - and must be, to make a society we can all participate in - restricted by their non-infringement on others. Your rights are your own liberties to act, but they are not a power to impose on others.

The entire concept of the 'freedom to offend' is the idea that there is a freedom to intentionally do wrong to someone else. That is a not a liberty, in my book: that is is a power to impose your will on others for the sake of harming them. That is wrong. That is what society exists to prevent.

Our freedom of speech is the powerful, vital freedom to contribute to our intellectual commons. It is the right to contribute to the great developments of policy, to the challenges to orthodoxy, to the development of new and different ideas and artistry. But the key word is contribute.

Sometimes, that contribution is offensive to some people. That's unfortunate. But the simple fact that a contribution is offensive does not make it less of a contribution. Equally so, however, the fact that some contributions are offensive does not mean that all offense is a contribution, and it does not mean that offense is, in and of itself, speech.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What's the difference between Freedom to give a Contribution, and Freedom to Offend, if the contributions offend somebody? You're changing language; you said it yourself.

Sometimes, that contribution is offensive to some people.

Yeah it is. That's the whole point of the Freedom to Offend. Its to protect marginalized people who may challenge the status quo.

[–]Avantine [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What's the difference between Freedom to give a Contribution, and Freedom to Offend, if the contributions offend somebody?

Does the distinction here really escape you?

It's like saying "You have the freedom to choose not to serve a customer" and "You have the freedom to choose not to serve black people". Sometimes the former includes the latter, so they have some semantic overlap, but they're really entirely different concepts.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

To answer your question: if Brietbart had made their point without relying on insults, then it would not have been removed.

I find it almost funny that people seem to assume I must disagree with the Brietbart piece because we removed it.

(Alternately, I agree with the piece, but I'm making a concerted effort to remove things I agree with?!?)

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't claim to know what you think, I'm trying to take the information I have at hand and determine what happened. I'm trying to figure out what their insult was, and I can't figure it out. Due to the bans that have been happening all day around the word "SJW", it seems that Brietbart's very act of associating that word to the protesters, and those that exhibit the same behaviors, was the insult?

[–]conflareAbsurdist | AB 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not a mod, and I'm not pretending to speak for them, but I have to agree with both those removals. Regarding this item:

For example, I recently had a post about the federal government surplus removed because it was "not substantive". Of course, the post was the very definition of substantive

It was a link to "The Fiscal Monitor: A publication of the Department of Finance", which is definitely informative, but is pretty clearly covered in the very first point in the description of what is or is not considered substantive:

Primary sources should be avoided wherever possible. It's far better either to post an article that puts the source in context, or to make a discussion post about the issue depicted or described in the primary source.

That seems pretty clear-cut.

The second was a link a short blog post on Loonie Politics which "accused" PET of being a socialist, insinuated JT would just continue the same policies, because blood, and made some fuzzy connections between a love of social justice warriors (their term) and poor economic policy:

Justin won the leadership of the Liberal Party on a slogan of “hope and hard work,” but modern progressivism’s obsession with guarding any self-identified victim group...is antithetical to the discipline and sacrifice the hard work of sane budgeting demands.

It's really a terribly thought out blog post, and those are supposed to meet a minimum standard of thoughtfulness.

[–]undercover-cop 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Primary sources should be avoided wherever possible.

Three days earlier, this sub was wanking over another primary source from the Federal government detailing cost savings under the Harper government, with an editorialized headline.

The problem with these "rules" is they can be applied one way or another, depending on the whims of the moderators.

The second was a link a short blog post on Loonie Politics ...

Loonie Politics is an accepted source in this sub, at least when the content isn't critical of the Trudeau government.

It's really a terribly thought out blog post, and those are supposed to meet a minimum standard of thoughtfulness.

That's just a cheap excuse to censor opinions you don't like. Such a vague standard could be applied to any editorial, leaving the interpretation of a "minimum standard" open to abuse by overzealous mods. Which is exactly what happens in this sub.

[–]conflareAbsurdist | AB 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Perhaps the moderators thought that the headline was enough to allow it under the second part of that rule:

...or to make a discussion post about the issue depicted or described in the primary source.

I wouldn't describe it as an editorialized headline. It was pretty factual. I also usually try to avoid describing other's commentary as "wanking." At least here.

That's just a cheap excuse to censor opinions you don't like.

Hardly. First, removal of blog posts and comments isn't censorship. There are other subs, you can start your own, and there's even other parts of the internet. The sub rules are very clear that the primary goal here is respectful discourse, not to provide every commenter an unfettered soap box.

Second, one of the reasons I come here is to get exposure to view points other than my own. I have had excellent interactions with redditors from all over the political spectrum here, and for the most part they have been fruitful. I've certainly learned a lot. There isn't a lot to be learned from pieces such as the above, which provides no sources or logical argument. It's nothing more than an internet rant, and not even a good example of the genre. I also happily report submissions from (say) The Rebel, Rabble, Tyee, etc. if they can't rise above that level. I can get screeds anywhere on the internet, I come here for something a bit better, and I'm glad the mods do their best to encourage that.

[–]undercover-cop 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

First, removal of blog posts and comments isn't censorship.

A distinction without a difference.

There are other subs, you can start your own, and there's even other parts of the internet.

We're discussing this sub here. I've heard your dismissive comment from moderators too - "if you don't like it, fuck off". Well that is how this echo chamber developed, pardon me for disliking that, and for speaking out about in a thread about free speech.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

Another post was removed without notice, no explanation given,

I apologize, that removal should have come with a note. The editorial was rule-2 violating for reasons that should be obvious.

I'll go back and add that removal note now, to remedy the error.

[–]undercover-cop 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

The editorial was rule-2 violating for reasons that should be obvious.

It is not obvious at all. I have no idea why that violates rule 2. Why don't you explain that to everyone?

And why was this post removed? Please tell everyone why that is not substantive.

By the way, I did message the mods about these removals when they happened, and I was ignored by every one of you.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 9ポイント10ポイント  (11子コメント)

It is not obvious at all. I have no idea why that violates rule 2. Why don't you explain that to everyone?

Some of the disrespectful assumptions and accusations in the editorial:

  • modern progressivism’s obsession with guarding any self-identified victim group — no matter how dubious — from the sting of discomfort — no matter how slight
  • liberals like Trudeau cannot fathom the notion that Conservative decisions could be motivated by anything beyond utter contempt for those affected
  • Such feel-good regressions reflect a fawning eagerness to mitigate the suffering of those who really shouldn’t be eliciting much sympathy in the first place, like corrupt chiefs and lazy civil servants
  • stimulus plan that will doubtless consist primarily of handouts to industries and businesses the Liberal Party would like to see succeed for its own ideological reasons, regardless of whether they’re competitive or necessary. (Included here for arguing against an assumed future; it would be credible if levied against an actual budget with examples.)

This is a right-wing equivalent to editorials that went full on "Harper derangement syndrome" against the previous government. Yes, we removed those as well.

Please tell everyone why that is not substantive.

Because it's a link to raw fiscal tables. It could also have been removed for rule 1, since you changed and editorialized the title.

I presume you were intending to make a point about surplus versus deficit with regards to Liberal budgetary assumptions, but if that was your goal then a self-post with a bit of commentary – leading the reader from the fiscal summary to your point – would have been a far better vehicle.

By the way, I did message the mods about these removals when they happened, and I was ignored by every one of you.

And indeed, that should not have happened. I apologize and probably plead modmail volume, but that doesn't change that you deserved a response to earnest questions about removals.

[–]undercover-cop 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Some of the disrespectful assumptions and accusations in the editorial ...

You clearly disagree with the author's opinions. That is the WORST reason to remove it from a sub supposedly dedicated to debate.

I happen to think progressives do rally behind self-identified victim groups, the Trudeau Liberals do presume the worst motives about Conservatives, corrupt chiefs and lazy civil servants aren't worthy of sympathy, and I also fear the Liberal stimulus plan will consist primarily of handouts to industries and businesses the Liberal Party would like to see succeed for its own ideological reasons.

Obviously those opinions are not welcome here. Am I banned now?

Because it's a link to raw fiscal tables. It could also have been removed for rule 1, since you changed and editorialized the title.

Actually, it is a link to an executive summary of the raw fiscal tables, the very definition of substance. And the "editorialized" title is in fact the first sentence of the first paragraph, which is not editorialized at all.

But if that is your excuse, then why was this post allowed? It really is just a link to raw fiscal tables, and does not even include an executive summary.

a self-post with a bit of commentary – leading the reader from the fiscal summary to your point – would have been a far better vehicle.

So your policy is for submitters to turn it into commentary first, rather than submitting primary sources directly? First of all, that "rule" is not consistently applied, second it does not address the supposed reason for removing this particular post ie that it is not "substantive".

Primary sources should always be allowed, they speak for themselves, even when the content is false or incorrect. Let people discuss the source at face value, and have some faith in their ability to interpret what they see. Requiring primary sources be turned into commentary is just a way to leave them open for removal because of some vague violation of rule 2 or rule 3.

And indeed, that should not have happened. I apologize and probably plead modmail volume, but that doesn't change that you deserved a response to earnest questions about removals.

While I appreciate your responses today, the problem is ongoing. Instead of requiring disputes be taken to modmail, they should be handled in public where everyone can see both sides of the argument. Instead mods are free to privately ignore the questions, or provide a wall 'o text containing torqued justifications and lame excuses that can never be applied consistently or fairly because nobody else sees them.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

You clearly disagree with the author's opinions.

Or perhaps you could engage with the actual reasons, not presumed ones. Coyne has previously made several of he same points, but he's managed to do so in far more respectful ways that don't assume at the outset that the Liberals are nefarious agents of whatever McCullough is against.

Obviously those opinions are not welcome here. Am I banned now?

If you spend your time expressing these opinions as assumptions, especially in as derisive a manner as McCullough, then eventually you will be.

But if that is your excuse, then why was this post allowed? It really is just a link to raw fiscal tables, and does not even include an executive summary.

That was a self-post, not a link-post. It was also a close call that could have gone the other way.

Instead of requiring disputes be taken to modmail, they should be handled in public where everyone can see both sides of the argument.

Not a chance. The only people in possession of full knowledge of a dispute are the aggrieved submitter and the moderators. If "everyone should see both sides of the argument," then that necessarily involves having no effective moderation of disputed issues, lest we invite public observation (and inevitably participation) based on partial evidence.

Besides, just what would be the goal of such a process? If the aim is to result in an overturning of the initial decision, convincing an ordinary user of the rightness of the cause is not helpful. If the appeal must persuade moderators, then modmail is ultimately the best place to reach the decision-makers.

This subreddit is not a democracy, but neither is it a prison. "Public opinion" doesn't and shouldn't have direct bearing on moderation actions1 If you or others feel so strongly that we stifle your very ability to express yourself, then I encourage you to go elsewhere to a forum more suitable to your interests. It would be far more enjoyable for you.

1 -- And if it did, by sheer Reddit demography we'd be harder on right-leaning articles and comments, not softer.

[–]undercover-cop -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Coyne has previously made several of he same points, but he's managed to do so in far more respectful ways that don't assume at the outset that the Liberals are nefarious agents of whatever McCullough is against.

McCullough isn't disrespectful in his article, except in your mind. It is a subjective interpretation, and as a result the moderation here is subject to the whims and moods of the moderators, not any objective standard. It is obvious, and you lose credibility when you pretend otherwise.

Not a chance. The only people in possession of full knowledge of a dispute are the aggrieved submitter and the moderators.

That is what happens when you require the dispute be handled in modmail. If it is done in public, everyone can see everything.

Besides, just what would be the goal of such a process?

To make the moderation more even-handed and fair, of course. But first you have to expose how moderation is biased and unfair, and you can't do that in modmail where questions are ignored or dismissed out of hand.

If you or others feel so strongly that we stifle your very ability to express yourself, then I encourage you to go elsewhere to a forum more suitable to your interests.

That is how this sub turned into an echo chamber in the first place. I gather that is what you want, or you would not be chiding people who are engaged in a discussion about the effect of moderation on free speech in this sub.

[–]Vorter_JacksonON 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, we removed those as well.

Uhh.. no, you didn't.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

Uhh.. no, you didn't.

We did. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that Michael Harris editorials were roughly a coin-flip on whether they'd be removed, because he had an unfortunate tendency to segue from reasonable criticism to frothing vitriol and bad-faith assumptions.

I can't promise that we let nothing slip by or that our judgements were perfectly self-consistent, but such consistency is impossible when dealing with an ultimately subjective question. I imagine there will be a number of other close calls (one way or the other) on the right side of the aisle in the months ahead.

[–]dmoore13 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

such consistency is impossible when dealing with an ultimately subjective question

Which is exactly why you shouldn't bother. Let us decide what we want to read and what we want to scroll past.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which is exactly why you shouldn't bother. Let us decide what we want to read and what we want to scroll past.

That's not what this subreddit is about. We've never in the least hidden that the subreddit is fairly heavily-moderated.

If an unrestrained commenting environment is your fondest desire, then I encourage you to go find (or found) one rather than tilt at this windmill.

[–]dmoore13 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not what this subreddit is about. We've never in the least hidden that the subreddit is fairly heavily-moderated.

You should change it to /r/CanadaPoliticsWeAgreeWith

People might get the wrong impression from the URL.

[–]dmoore13 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Some of the disrespectful assumptions and accusations in the editorial:

Have you ever applied these standards to an article you agree with?

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Have you ever applied these standards to an article you agree with?

Absolutely. It was a while back so I don't have the link at hand, but I remember a Linda McQuaig editorial removed for vitriolic anti-Harper statements where I found it very regrettable the substantive point was being drowned in bile.

[–]dmoore13 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So you did it once..

[–]sdbest 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

It is true that the mods of /r/CanadaPolitics seem to have an unpublished list of commentators whose views are, generally, not welcome on this sub. As well, when an op-ed writer pens a piece that is provocative it can often be removed, notwithstanding it appeared in a reputable publication. I'm not able to discern the objective criteria for this, apart from the arbitrary view or mood of a moderator on any particular day.

It seems to me that's just the environment on /r/CanadaPolitics. Speech and views are circumscribed. That's just the way it is. My own approach is to submit these writers' views on /r/Canada where the environment is much more open to vigorous debate.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fair enough. I came to this sub for the smaller community and for their emphasis on debate. I thought that was the hallmark of this sub, and I've had some lovely debates with people around here, coming to know certain individuals and their view points. People have challenged my ideas, and I've changed my views on things, and I like to think I've done the same. But the only way this free exchange of ideas can happen is by being unfiltered. It appears I may have been wrong about this place.

[–]sdbest 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the only way this free exchange of ideas can happen is by being unfiltered. It appears I may have been wrong about this place.

It's not a perfect subreddit, in my view, for political discussion. But it is a good one. Perhaps, there's an argument to be made for not letting the 'perfect' get in the way of the 'better.'

The subscribers to this subreddit tend to be quite thoughtful and often well-informed. The moderators have decided that there are some views they ought not be allowed to discuss here. It's a small blemish, in my view.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

I find it weird when people assume we disagree with an article when it's removed.

Why do you assume that I didn't agree with the Brietbart article?

[–]sdbest 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I did not assert that any moderator did not agree with the Brietbart article. I asserted that there seems to be some commentators whose views are not welcome on /r/CanadaPolitics. Some views being not welcome here and views that moderators agree with or don't agree with are quite different things.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Some you gave no indication of what you think this secret list of forbidden views contains, I assumed you were referring to the brietbart piece.

If not then never mind. There is no list, all views are welcome.

[–]sdbest 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

There is no list, all views are welcome.

If memory serves (and often it doesn't), I seem to recall having a link to a Micheal Harris article deleted and one by Murray Dobbin, too. Again if memory serves, the reasons given were the critical nature of the pieces, harsh criticism directed at the Conservative Party.

So, as I say, it doesn't seem to me that "all views are welcome." I'm not too bothered by that, by the way. Moderate at your discretion. There's other subreddits and forums to discuss the views of Harris and Dobbin when they are not welcome here.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

If memory serves (and often it doesn't), I seem to recall having a link to a Micheal Harris article deleted and one by Murray Dobbin, too.

And you assume that the article could only have been removed because we disagree with it?

You're contradicting yourself... You say you're not claiming the Brietbart piece was removed because we disagree with it. Now, you're saying that two articles were removed... and it could only be because we disagree with them.

Again if memory serves, the reasons given were the critical nature of the pieces, harsh criticism directed at the Conservative Party.

Your memory is faulty. There's no chance in hell we removed it for that reason.

There is however a BIG chance that we told you that it was removed for rule 2 and you quite incorrectly took that to mean "it was removed for being harshly critical of Conservatives".

THAT happens all the time. We removed for rule 2 violations, say so and people read that as "you didn't like the opinion".

[–]sdbest 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

And you assume that the article could only have been removed because we disagree with it?

What makes you think I assume that? If memory serves, the moderator of the article removed them because their tone was inconsistent with the demeanor expected on this subreddit. I don't know if the moderator agreed or disagreed with the assertions being made by Harris and Dobbins.

I'd appreciate it if you'd address the points I actually make, not assertions you might think I'm making. Also, please don't read into my words assumptions of your own creation.

Your comment that, "Now, you're saying that two articles were removed... and it could only be because we disagree with them," is a false in all respects and ought to be withdrawn. I have said no such thing.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd address my comments with the decorum you expect of others.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have no idea what point you're making.

That we remove posts and comments that violate the rules? If course we do. That you brought up a couple examples of us doing that and you misremember the reason they were removed is not really relevant.

And none of that means that there's any forbidden views. There aren't.

[–]sdbest 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And none of that means that there's any forbidden views. There aren't.

Then why are articles from reputable online publications written by informed commentators being deleted? Of course there are "forbidden views." They are views that don't correspond to the decorum and constraints of debate the moderators prefer to see on /r/CanadaPolitics.

As to "I have no idea what point you're making," I was charged with asserting that moderators here removing submissions that they don't agree with. I quote, "you're saying that two articles were removed... and it could only be because we disagree with them." That's a false assumption.

[–]Rocksbury 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

moderators or admins deciding to not give a platform to certain views on this private website is not censorship.

We get this one a lot but I cant recall the mod elections nor did I know mods had been verified volunteers or employees of Reddit itself. If this is not the case then its a community forum based and focused on Canada and should follow the laws of said nation.

We the contributors have no right to say or contribute it is the right of the moderators to enforce global policy and we trust this will be done so unbiased and with respect.

Bring the article back and enough of this nonsense about commenting on self identified justice warriors.

[–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know mods had been verified volunteers or employees of Reddit itself.

All subreddits operate within the confines of Reddit's site-wide rules, but few if any moderators are formally associated with Reddit. (I think there's some crossover for /r/IAmA, and of course there's the administratively-focused subreddits like /r/changelog.)

Essentially anyone can create a subredidt for themselves, at which point they become its chief moderator and are responsible for developing policies, stylesheets, and appointing other moderators.

There are a handful of other Canadian politics subreddits, including some deliberately created as a counterpoint to this one with less moderation. I don't follow them, however, so I can't even list them off the top of my head; I don't believe they are well-trafficked.

its a community forum based and focused on Canada and should follow the laws of said nation.

Surprisingly to many peoples' intuitions, national laws generally say little to nothing about enforcing freedom of speech (no matter how it is defined) in private conduct, which is what any subreddit is. National laws govern governmental restrictions of speech foremostly, and secondarily they are concerned with speech when there is an element of coercive power at play such as employment.

[–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I cant recall the mod elections nor did I know mods had been verified volunteers or employees of Reddit itself.

Uh, because we're not elected and we're not employees of Reddit? And there's absolutely no requirement that subs be run by people who are and it's kind of odd that you seem to think there is?

and should follow the laws of said nation.

Uh, what?


This sub was started by people trying to create a respectful political discussion. They recruited more like minded people as time went on.

That's how it works and it's not going to change. Reddit is never going to pay us and we're never going to be elected by the subscribers.

We make the rules and enforce them using our best judgement. We choose to solicit feedback from users, but we are not bound by it.

If you like that, great. Subscribe. If you don't, no big deal unsubscribe and find something else.

[–]lemmoxLiberal 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

We get this one a lot but I cant recall the mod elections nor did I know mods had been verified volunteers or employees of Reddit itself. If this is not the case then its a community forum based and focused on Canada and should follow the laws of said nation.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "verified volunteers or employees of Reddit", but you're dramatically over thinking an informal, volunteer run internet discussion board. Even formal public debates have rules. The mods created this sub, they set the rules as they please. In an effort to cut out the inevitable descent into chaos and flame wars that most internet debates suffer they just cut out the middle man and banned the laziest and/or most incendiary terms, as well as articles they feel don't pass that smell test.

There's literally nothing stopping you from starting your own sub with whatever rules you want.

[–]Rocksbury 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

informal, volunteer run internet discussion board.

This seems the opposite of what moderators claim in that this is not a free speech zone but a corporate site that can enforce its own rules.

I believe the users who subscribe assume this is in fact a community driven page and censorship due to it not being a free speech zone is inexcusable.

[–]lemmoxLiberal 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

This seems the opposite of what moderators claim in that this is not a free speech zone but a corporate site that can enforce its won rules

It is both, Reddit is free to enforce whatever rules they want on their platform, including this sub. Within this sub, the mods have the same authority.

I believe the users who subscribe assume this is in fact a community driven page and censorship due to it not being a free speech zone is inexcusable

The rules are clearly stated on the side of the sub, this sub was also explicitly founded as a tightly moderated place for debate. If you subscribe expecting anything else you are going to be greatly disappointed through no one's fault but your own.

[–]Rocksbury -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

So can we agree its censorship at the discretion of unelected officials?

Something we all understand and try to clarify to prevent abuse, however the defense comes up that its not censorship but corporate policy. I find the lack of transparency and mind you this sub has been great as coming across as dishonest.

I appreciate and support the team but would always as a user under those with control fight for transparency and clarity.

[–]lemmoxLiberal 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So can we agree its censorship at the discretion of unelected officials?

What? No, what is this obsession with "elected officials"? This isn't about free speech or democracy or our rights as Canadians.

You metaphorically came over to the mod team's house, so you follow their rules, regardless of whether they're the rules you use in your house. If you can't handle that, then throw your own party at your place next time.

[–]Rabble-ArouserFree NFLD 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

self identified justice warriors.

Self identified? Say what?

[–]LlanganatiCommunist/International 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

You already have the rest of Reddit to post and read Breitbart and other extreme-right rags like that. In fact /r/canadapolitics is one of the few places I know of that doesn't seem to be fond of that source.

Also, I'll have you know that moderators or admins deciding to not give a platform to certain views on this private website is not censorship.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I came here because I love Canada and I wanted a place where thoughtful debate can take place. We all agree around here that we want the best for Canada and for Canadian citizens, but we may disagree on how we achieve that. The article that was removed was critiquing a group of individuals who were acting in deplorable ways in response to someones misguided ideas. And the thread was a platform for some interesting conversations to take place.

[–]dmoore13 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

Anything we call them will eventually morph into a bad word when they go around dumping pee on people they disagree with.

[–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well said, isn't that the truth.

[–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Removed for rule 2.

    [–]AshlirLibertarian 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

    The really disturbing thing about this removal. Is not only did they remove the thread, but the discussion continued afterwards so they went back and deleted all of the individual comments to prevent further discussion or qouting of the discussion by individuals who chose to seek it out.

    [–]croserobinProvincially Selected Senate 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    It would be nice if the moderators somehow made the discussion in that thread available in the new national post thread

    [–]AshlirLibertarian -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

    This is the comment that was sent to me when it was removed.

    After some discussion among mods, we're removing this. Regardless of whether it's treated as a news report or an editorial commentary (which, unfortunately, it blends together), it violates Rules 2 and 3 beyond the flexibility we allow for submissions relative to comments.

    This was about the discussion it self. It was extremely tame and was really good. I could make some assumptions about bias, but they took the time to nuke each comment individually, to prevent any unauthorized discussion. They now claim it was about the article.

    [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    I mean, I still have my comments. Do you have yours? We could rebuild the discussions if we really tried.

    [–]ipmpgr [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Why would anyone here want to read what a couple Libertarians have to say? Get in line or find another sub. I did the latter. This place doesn't promote discussion, it stifles it till it's all the same posters jerking each other off.

    [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Point is, I don't care whether they want to read my comments or not. That's their prerogative. That's not going to stop me from putting my voice out there. If they disagree, challenge me, I'll defend my positions. Echo chambers are what lead to this whole mess.

    [–]JimmyAJames 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    How does one describe political and social movements critically without being disrespectful? I don't even know if it is possible for an individual to comment on politics without the construction of a label or generalization, and maybe being disrespectful.

    Politics is meant to be discussed liberally and with full and free exchange of meanings, symbolism, expression, and in some cases vitriol. Not to be disrespectful, but to construct a social and cultural realm that is more representative of their beliefs. However, people have different beliefs and see things differently, politically, socially and culturally, as well- perhaps even biologically and psychologically- but this is a whole different discussion.

    My opinion, which may be considered left or right, is that the restriction of free speech, or the use of censorship, through various means is not justice, is not fair, and is in complete contradiction to the charter of human rights. For example, Shadowbanning, human rights tribunals, and the overall collective nature of all the different groups of protesters and social movements to change speech patterns and construct cultural and social relative concepts offer us only friction and divisiveness. The more the left and right fight on this idea and on any public platform, but specifically the internet, is immoral and in contradiction to the functions and practices of a healthy and vibrant democracy.

    More often than not, and seemingly showing an increasing trend, is the fact that certain ideologies namely the left are coming into full opposition with the right. Of course here I am only generally referring to the individual practice of ideology in the public sphere, be it on the internet or in a public or private venue- there are so many gray zones that it is hard to ever really gauge this realm/ sphere at all.

    Being called a fascist, sjw, nazi, sexist, racist, etc. The use of identifying politics is in a sense low-brow, but no doubt these meanings carry significant weight in shaping public opinion. Obviously, it seems that in the action of shaping public opinion both political ideologies (in the general sense) would attempt to censor particular speech, and favour of another one, this is cultural relativism, and its dangers lay the efficacy and ethics of its method.

    There is great concern for me here that my speech is restricted because someone thinks I am being disrespectful. I am relating the fundamental human principle of being allowed to speak my mind, and to generalize ideas, concepts, ideologies, in a narritive that most people familiar to myself, and with full inter-subjective meaning know that I mean to be honest and speak my mind about political or social activities in Canada that I find offensive or that need to change- this is politics, it is always, but not always, disrespectful. Most -non-reactionaries- would see what I have to say and construct not a disrespectful mindset, but then this is the nature of semantics.

    [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well said. You summed it up beautifully. It's near impossible to talk politics without offending members of the other party.

    Part of the problem is that disagreement has become morally wrong; if someone disagrees with a parties point, it means they are a horrible human being. Individuals, of both parties, use these tactics to distance themselves and society from that person. It's like when you see, for example, Leftists calling a person the Far Right when they criticize policies from the left. People can be Liberal and still object to certain Liberal policies, same with Conservatives, same with Libertarians and all political ideologues.

    But if you can convince people that they are the other, that they belong to the out group because of their ideas, you can discredit them in the court of public opinion. It's scary.

    [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Removed for rule 2.

      And you're wrong. Everyone is welcome in this sub as long as they abide by the sidebar rules.

      [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]Issacharwrites in comic sans | Official[M] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Removed for rule 2.

        Do it again and you invite a ban.

        [–]GarryGarrysonConservative | Fortis et Liber 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        This disappoints me greatly, this is supposed to be a sub that promotes Free Speech and intelligent debate.

        This is where you went wrong. This is a subreddit for moderator approved topics to be discussed with moderator approved comments that fit the moderators views. If you haven't noticed that some of the mod's here remove comments because they don't agree with them then you haven't been paying close enough attention.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        I have only been here for a couple months, but I've started to notice that.

        [–]REDDIT_IN_MOTION 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Can we get a list of approved new sources that we can use? I'm guessing Jezebel and xoJane are fine, but a comprehensive list would be handy.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I've seen Vox on the front page, if that tells you anything.

        [–]butt_wiggle -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        This is a sub for Canadian politics, not "culture war" and gender politics, IMO, those shouldn't be acceptable and neither should Brietbart.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        These activists actions are relevant to Canada. Specifically, this opens up discussions about whether we should allow certain individuals in to our Country because of their views, or what constitutes peaceful protest.

        [–]JimmyAJames 0ポイント1ポイント  (40子コメント)

        Yeah, this concerns me as well. I have noticed more and more moderator action like this when it comes to certain political ideas. Either way I am just going to post what I wrote in response to claim that I broke rule 2, in that SJW is a slur. Okay???

        Well its not. SJW is a concept used to define a group of people, it is not a slur. SJW, as you use it signifies the same identity construct of a group of individuals, like "anti-fascists", "radical feminists", etc- and this can be also used as a slur, or a positive association, depending on ones perspective.

        We shouldn't breed political correctness to the point that one can't use SJW to describe what is essential a particular group identity, or the collective mindset and actions of people. Cultural relativism opposes certain ideological constructs while reifying, or constructing, their own to replace them; reality replaced with dissimilar ideas and thoughts in terms of controlling the freedom of speech by the erasure of the meaning of the real via censorship

        [–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 19ポイント20ポイント  (14子コメント)

        in that SJW is a slur. Okay???

        Yes. It is a term used to insult and dismiss a group based on their political/social beliefs. It is almost never a productive contribution to discussion.

        If you would like a good rule of thumb to use on this matter, ask yourself "would other people describe themselves with this term in an earnest, non-ironic fashion?" (Edit to add:) Also, is the impugned term one of specificity and unambiguous meaning, or is it a term of jargon or stroke with a broad brush?

        For a remarkably less controversial example, note that we also don't permit users to describe sides of the abortion debate as "anti-choice" or "pro-infanticide."

        We shouldn't breed political correctness to the point that one can't use SJW to describe what is essential a particular group identity, or the collective mindset and actions of people.

        If you cannot have civil discussion with your ideological opposites – and that includes not insulting them – then /r/CanadaPolitics is not the forum for you. There are other active subreddits and broader discussion forums that encourage vitriol.

        [–]JimmyAJames -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

        I never insulted anyone. Nor did I use vitriol. Do you assume I could not have a civil conversation because I believe that SJW is a term used to describe the overall collective activities of many people on the left to re-construct society in their own image.

        In the context of the article we are referring it specifically called them 'anti-fascists', which is misleading, because it frames the meaning of the situation with Lauren Southern, for which the article was referring to, as somehow a fascist?

        How else I am supposed to identify people who carelessly attempt the praxeology social justice?

        [–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official[M] 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Do you assume I could not have a civil conversation because I believe that SJW is a term used to describe the overall collective activities of many people on the left to re-construct society in their own image.

        Yes, in much the same way I could not have a civil conversation with a hypothetical boss who I thought was a pretentious asshole, if I insisted on using such phrasing in conversation.

        How else I am supposed to identify people who carelessly attempt the praxeology social justice?

        By critiquing ideas and their expression in specific, not by applying a label in general.

        [–]Vorter_JacksonON -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        So if I say something pejorative about the religious right, as an example I can't use 'evangelical' to describe or label them? SJW as a label is not exclusively pejorative. It's in fact how many fringe third wave feminists and other progressives desribed themselves and still do. I view evangelicals in a poor light as I do many illiberal progressives that call themselves socially progressive, or SJWs. I choose to desribe both by the most common name available. Its your opinion whether you view that as pejorative.

        [–]jtbcpipelines AND wind turbines 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

        You've provided two terms - "feminist" and "progressive" that are perfectly acceptable shorthand for the views that are pejoratively termed as "SJW".

        I don't consider "evangelical" to be in any way pejorative. It is an accurate term for a subset of protestant christianity, and is a term used by many adherents of those sects. Contrast that with "bible thumper" or "fundie", to get a sense of how a progressive person hears "SJW".

        [–]Vorter_JacksonON 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Fundamentalist and Christian extremist would probably quailfy as pejorative even though it's accurately describing who and what someone or a group of people are but they probably wouldn't like it.

        [–]jtbcpipelines AND wind turbines 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Quite possibly those are pejorative terms. Certainly if I refer to anyone in any context as an "extremist", I am not being complementary.

        For whatever reason, these more accurate, but still unflattering, descriptors don't ring the same bell. Calling someone a "radical feminist" who actually is one wouldn't be as controversial as calling people "SJW's". I am not quite sure why.

        [–]LlanganatiCommunist/International 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Lauren may not be a fascist, but when you go out into public with the intent of having dishonest "interviews" -in which you have no interest in actually listening to the interviewee- with people while repeating the same boring Reddit memes mocking trans and non-binary people, you should expect progressives to be less than friendly.

        [–]JimmyAJames 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

        So is the use of 'progressives' a violation of rule 2?

        [–]lemmoxLiberal 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Why would it be? While some people may use it as an insult, that is not even close to the primary usage of the term, and I have never encountered a progressive who thought the term insulting.

        [–]jtbcpipelines AND wind turbines 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Even Conservatives like to consider themselves "progressive" from time to time.

        [–]tet5uoManitoba -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Oh, so it only matters how the person being described feels about it?

        [–]lemmoxLiberal 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Generally that's how insults work, yes.

        [–]Surtur1313Anti-Neoliberal/Pro-Moka[M] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        To quote another mod elsewhere in this discussion:

        If you would like a good rule of thumb to use on this matter, ask yourself "would other people describe themselves with this term in an earnest, non-ironic fashion?"

        [–]LittlestHobot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        If you recall, Southern was covering a protest against a talk to be given by a gentleman who goes by the name "Augustus Invictus". Though he is a self-described libertarian, the protesters see more of a fascist. That's their view and they were there to make it known. So, in their view, they were there protest against a 'fascist'.

        They weren't demonstrating against Southern herself or the organization she was reporting for.

        [–]LlanganatiCommunist/International 20ポイント21ポイント  (10子コメント)

        SJW is nothing but a boogeyman and a strawman created by the internet right to describe a very broad category of people who show characteristics which they don't like or approve of.

        It can mean anything, and more often than not I just see it applied to anyone to the left of Harper.

        [–]Ceridith 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

        SJW is nothing but a boogeyman and a strawman created by the internet right to describe a very broad category of people who show characteristics which they don't like or approve of.

        Not really. It's used as a label for far left leaning people who have adopted a "no bad tactics, only bad targets" mentality with regards to furthering their social and political beliefs.

        [–]LlanganatiCommunist/International 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Most people who are accused of being "SJWs" are not far-left.

        [–]Ceridith 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        And a lot of people who are accused of being racist or misogynist aren't those things either.

        That doesn't mean that the term doesn't have a specific meaning despite it's misuse.

        [–]lemmoxLiberal 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

        In the case of SJW the appropriate use has been completely drowned out by its misuse. Whatever the original meaning of the phrase it has undeniably devolved into a lazy slur. There are better phrases to use, and that one doesn't add much to a debate anyway.

        [–]Ceridith -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        One could easily argue that the same thing is happening with the other terms I mentioned.

        [–]lemmoxLiberal 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And if that happened I'd hope they'd be added to the list.

        As I mentioned elsewhere, "Negro" used to be the progressive term for black people, yet I doubt many people wouldn't at least raise an eyebrow if somebody on this sub started talking about "Negro issues".

        The meaning of words and phrases change, in some cases to the point where they simply become a distraction when introduced into the debate.

        [–]JimmyAJames 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Your use of the term the 'internet right' places a contradiction on your use of the term strawman.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

        It may have been created by the Right but there are many people from all political parties who consider certain individuals to be SJW's. Christina Hoff Sommers is a good example, she is a Liberal and a Feminist and used to call certain people in the feminist movement grievance feminists, but after Gamegate has adopted the term social justice warrior to describe them.

        By the way, political correctness was a term originally coined by the Right, as well, but we all love that term now.

        [–]LlanganatiCommunist/International [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        Christina Hoff Summers is hardly a feminist, not any more in any case. All she does is criticize feminism and cozy up to reactionaries.

        Also, no-one except right-wingers and self-identified "liberals" who side with right-wingers and their manufactured outrage use the term "PC" unironically.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        No true Scotsman. Christina Hoff Sommers has been a Feminist since the 60's, as well as people like Camille Paglia. They beleive fundamentally in female empowerment and equity between the sexes. They aren't considered Feminists by the individuals who have high jacked the term.

        [–]lemmoxLiberal 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And Negro used to be the politically correct term for black people, but times change and whatever the word's original meaning it is now nothing more than a slur and a relic.

        SJW is no different, any impartial original meaning has been overwhelmed by negative connotations and insults. We can still have discussions about these issues, but you need to find a better word for them.

        [–]sdbest 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

        SJW is a concept used to define a group of people, it is not a slur.

        I would disagree. It is usually used as a pejorative,

        "Social Justice Warrior. A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose of raising their own personal reputation."

        [–]macamareva 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Cultural relativism opposes certain ideological constructs while reifying, or constructing, their own to replace them;

        This is a lot of words that mean very little. So SJWs are people who believe in cultural relativism? To a certain extent, everyone who isn't Cecil Rhodes believes in cultural relativism in different ways.

        reality replaced with dissimilar ideas and thoughts in terms of controlling the freedom of speech

        Ah, so SJWs are just people who don't believe in reality, eh? If only that's how politics worked -- we could divide people up into those who believe in reality and those who don't.

        by the erasure of the meaning of the real via censorship

        While "erasure" is a great word, I'm actually not sure what this part means.

        [–]JimmyAJames 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

        In r/Canadianpolitics use of SJW is rule 2 violation.

        [–]AshlirLibertarian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It is only a violation sometimes at the discretion of the mods. Obviously since this example is still here.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Well said. Its Newspeak, for anyone who has read Orwell. For a greater definition, read the appendix to 1984, however I'll add this:

        The aim of Newspeak is to remove all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple concepts (pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, goodthink and crimethink) that reinforce the total dominance of the State.

        People use Social Justice Warriors to define actions committed by individuals of certain groups. Generally, this includes but is not limited to; promoting false statistics to change government policy; censorship of certain ideas on social media or no platforming individuals from speaking at public venues; or blocking others from attending talks by individuals they disagree with, by protesting in front of the doors to block entry or pulling the fire alarms during events.

        To call these people Feminists, or Activists of any kind does a disservice to the people who are actually trying to enact change. Social Justice Warriors defines these behaviors as the authoritarian actions that they are, and they have to be criticized.

        Unless we want to be Ukraine in 2013 who had the government militarize the police force to break up peaceful protesters for criticizing the Ukrainian President, or Pakistan where thousands of individuals protested in support for a man who was executed for murdering a politician in cold blood for criticizing blasphemy laws. This is what Countries without Free Speech look like.

        [–]macamareva 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

        promoting false statistics to change government policy

        I simply can't think of an instance of a typically "SJW" use of this practice but c'mon guy, this is basically everyone on every side of the spectrum.

        censorship of certain ideas on social media

        Like when those SJWs on /r/conservative or /r/european delete stuff, huh?

        by protesting in front of the doors to block entry or pulling the fire alarms during events.

        Don't you just hate it when those SJWs do this at abortion clinics?


        We all know what SJW means. It can refer to basically everyone who is broadly in favour of equitable practices or anti-racism. It's just a cheap shot used by people who want Canada to be more libertarian and get frightened every time they're reminded that the human rights act exists.

        [–]Vorter_JacksonON 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        We all know what SJW means. It can refer to basically everyone who is broadly in favour of equitable practices or anti-racism. It's just a cheap shot used by people who want Canada to be more libertarian and get frightened every time they're reminded that the human rights act exists.

        No actually it's a moniker for people who at first believed in egalitarian social progressive values. Slowly it's come to more refer to people that believe that liberal values (such as free speech for everyone) are less important then simply being progressive looking, less egalitarian while still promoting an illiberal view of equality.

        Honestly I don't see why we need a speech code for SJW. I'll call it regressive left, authoritarian left or fascist left. It all means the same thing. It's not exlusively pejorative.

        [–]LittlestHobot 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Perhaps a better test for whether a term is pejorative or derisive is whether those individuals being identified by the term would self-identify as such. If they don't, the term is probably being used a pejorative and a shorthand dismissal of a particular point of view.

        Yes, the persons often referred to as 'SJWs' can often be annoying, but they likely do not use that shorthand to refer to themselves.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Its a descriptor to bring to mind characteristics certain individuals exhibit. Generally speaking, those who are against free speech, or those who will engage in violence to silence those they disagree with. When we say, sturdy wooden chair, we know what we are talking about. Same thing.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Sure, I'll engage you.

        You're right, everyone does this. But these social justice warriors have widespread public support, that's where the issue is.

        I simply can't think of an instance of a typically "SJW" use of this practice but c'mon guy, this is basically everyone on every side of the spectrum.

        Third Wave Feminist advocacy research pushed the 1 in 5 rapes on college campuses through the press, that lead to the media Witch Hunts of the Duke Lacrosse team and the Dear Jackie story. This is horribly damaging for actual victims of rape and sexual assault, as it adds a certain element of skepticism for these crimes into the general public. And in Canada, it could lead to a vast rewriting of sexual assault laws that could erode due process and lower the burden of proof.

        They did the same with the wage gap, which is misleading, and has been debunked since the seventies. It's why, though young women make up 60% of college and University graduates, they are still classified as a disadvantaged group in Canada and thus benefit from affirmative action. And yet these same concepts are parroted by politicians of the highest order.

        Like when those SJWs on /r/conservative or /r/european delete stuff, huh?

        I agree, those subs are echo chambers, and I want no part of them. But this is CanadaPolitics, where all points of view should be represented.

        Don't you just hate it when those SJWs do this at abortion clinics?

        Everyone has the right to protest. I support the SJWs protests, as well as religious fundamentalists who protests. Its a civic right; all citizens have the right to peaceful protest. When they start infringing on other people's rights is where I take issue.

        [–]macamareva 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Third Wave Feminist advocacy research pushed the 1 in 5 rapes on college campuses through the press, that lead to the media Witch Hunts of the Duke Lacrosse team and the Dear Jackie story.

        RTI International did some great social scientific research into sexual assault on campus. Some people, including you it seems, miscontrue their results. That's your fault, not theirs.

        as it adds a certain element of skepticism for these crimes into the general public.

        The level of skepticism certain elements of the public direct at the survivors of sexual assault has absolutely nothing to do with RTI International.

        They did the same with the wage gap, which is misleading, and has been debunked since the seventies.

        The existence of the gender pay gap has been hotly debated by economists, lawyers, and legislators. You think it has been debunked. Many others do not. To bring it back to your original point, the fact that you personally disagree with a body of statistical analysis does not make it "false," such that it constitutes the "promotion of false statistics to promote government policy."

        classified as a disadvantaged group in Canada and thus benefit from affirmative action.

        by whom, the Government Bureau of Classifying Disadvantaged Groups? There are various measures to correct the underrepresentation of women in various areas. Women were underrepresented in Cabinet before Trudeau did his thing. They remain grotesquely underrepresented in pretty much every single STEM field. They remain underrepresented in law and in corporate governance.

        But this is CanadaPolitics, where all points of view should be represented.

        Sure. But maybe find a source that articulates this point of view without being rude.

        When they start infringing on other people's rights is where I take issue.

        Sure. But you're saying that this is characteristically SJW. It isn't.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Thanks for the response. I'm going to go through this piece by piece, and do the some of the legwork, as I enjoy this kind of stuff. I'm going disregard the Time's article, as they are backpedaling. To preface, I actually agree, there's not enough research surrounding sexual assault. Its a horrendous crime that needs our attention, and the victims need our sympathy and help (both men and women who are victims).

        RTI International did some great social scientific research into sexual assault on campus

        https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

        If you look at the study they published back in 2007, there are some glaring problems. Under methods, as anyone analyzing data should note, they say this:

        The CSA Study involved conducting a Web-based survey of random samples of undergraduate students at two large public universities, one located in the South (University 1) and one located in the Midwest (University 2). The CSA Survey was administered in the Winter of 2006, and a total of 5,446 undergraduate women and 1,375 undergraduate men participated. Because the male component of the study was exploratory, the data and results presented in this summary represent women only. The CSA Study was reviewed and approved by RTI’s Institutional Review Board (IRB), as well as the university IRBs.

        Unrepresentative sample size. Any data they collect will tell us how many students at that University have been sexually assault and/ or raped, not the wider public. They also ignore male victims, which is typical.

        We drew random samples of students aged 18-25 and enrolled at least three-quarters’ time at each university to participate in the CSA Study. Sampled students were sent an initial recruitment e-mail that described the study, provided a unique CSA Study ID#, and included a hyperlink to the CSA Study Web site. During each of the following weeks, students who had not completed the survey were sent follow-up e-mails and a hard-copy letter encouraging them to participate. The overall response rates for survey completion for the undergraduate women sampled at the two universities were 42.2% and 42.8%, respectively.

        Alright, low response rate. Big problem when looking at data. When your sample sizes are 42 percent, you can't make any conclusive claims with that. There is going to be response bias, those who have experienced something horrible like sexual assault are most likely to respond, as it personally affects them. Those who haven't most likely won't. Most statisticians would disregard this study right here, and we haven't even covered how they define sexual assault.

        I don't have much problem with this report, as I applaud anyone trying to solve the issues women face with sexual assault. They even state in the Times article that if you remove sexual assault from their report, the number of rape victims is 1 in 7. Still to high, but keep in mind this is only at those two Universities. My point is, the 1 in 5 stats have been quoted by Obama and Joe Biden at the White house, which has created a hysteria around sexual assault and rape. It's lead California to redefine sexual assault in; its lead to yes means yes laws; its lead to the definition of rape where two consenting adults who have had sex, if a they have been drinking, the man has raped that woman. It's lead to mandatory consent classes for young men on campuses.

        In Canada, during the Gomeshi trial, we had the hashtag #BelieveTheVictim go viral, despite the fact that Lucy Decoutere and those who accused Gomeshi had their cases destroyed in court. We had the media saying we need to change sexual assault laws, lower the burden of proof, eliminate due process. RTI may have done good work, and they may have attempted to redact some of their statements to blunt the frenzy, but its too late. The damage is already done.

        Onto the wage gap:

        The existence of the gender pay gap has been hotly debated by economists, lawyers, and legislators.

        I did not say that it was wrong, I said it was misleading. If you take the average earnings of men and women and divide those numbers, you get about 77 cents on dollar. This is true. However, earnings do not equal wages. Women are not paid less for the same work than a man, in fact this is illegal in most places in the West.

        When economists say they've debunked this, they are referring to when you control for all the factors; women and men making different career choices; taking time off for maternity leave; taking company benefits over higher wages etc, the earnings gap shrinks. There are also factors that the wage gap doesn't cover, like for example in Canada, women are more likely to take money out of the government due to health care costs for pregnancies, due to them living longer than men and thus taking more out of government money etc. There are resources out there that cover these things, if you are curious. If you cover all these factors, the in some cases the wage gap actually favours women. There is evidence that young women before thirty are actually outearning their male peers. Interesting stuff.

        "classified as a disadvantaged group in Canada and thus benefit from affirmative action." by whom, the Government Bureau of Classifying Disadvantaged Groups?

        Women are classified as a disadvantaged group in the Employment Equity act of Canada. The four groups covered by this are:

        1. Women
        2. Aboriginals
        3. People with disabilities
        4. Visible Minorities

        Sure. But you're saying that this is characteristically SJW. It isn't.

        There are individuals who exhibit these actions; assaulting people with differing points of view; dismissing people's opinions because of their identity; many other things. Social Justice Warriors do not describe groups of people, they describe actions that individuals take. Because they are part of certain groups is a coincidence.

        [–]MajromaxTL;DR | Official 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The existence of the gender pay gap has been hotly debated by economists, lawyers, and legislators. You think it has been debunked. Many others do not

        Adding a bit of context here: to what extent the gender pay gap is debunked depends on whether you control for occupational choice, job tenure, and hours worked.

        If you do, then much (but not quite all) of the discrepancy vanishes. On the other hand, these choices are not made in a gender-blind fashion – for example society as a whole still seems to channel women into nursing but men into physician tracks.

        [–]butt_wiggle 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Clearly this is a divisive issue, and it only makes sense to use a credible mainstream media source (like NP) who has more to lose if their reporting isn't credible than a foreign source that is expressly partisan.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Why does everyone hate partisanship so much? I see so many people dismiss things with this label. All partisanship means is that they have a political ideological bias. Thus, if you disagree, challenge their ideas with facts and opinion. This is the purpose of debate.

        [–]butt_wiggle 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Partisanship is great, I think strong debates on either sides of the issue can happen in the comments, the problem is when the source people are trying to get info from has their own agenda, it can stifle and distort proper debate and omit facts.

        Better to have a mainstream source both sides can at least somewhat agree on as impartial so everyone feels they have most of the facts presented properly so they can take a position on the matter.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

        I would love it if mainstream media covered both sides of arguments equally and favorably. Because they don't, many times those who disagree have to find other information from fringe or niche organizations that get banned or censored, just to avoid living in an echo chamber.

        [–]butt_wiggle 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        I don't love every aspect of the mainstream media either, but I find the straight news is usually pretty on the mark, obviously there will be some degree of slant, but to me it is far less than the fringe/niche organizations. I usually find those are far more likely to be echo chambers, especially with the blurred lines between reporting and editorial content.

        With those sites like Rabble, Rebel and Breitbart, you're usually getting reporters and columnists who agree on almost everything and have less concern for the facts because they are typically preaching to the converted. MSM has less of that because the readership is more ideologically broad.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I agree with much of you you've said but I want to clarify one point; you'll find those sites are very slanted due to the fact that their particular views aren't represented accurately in the MSM. In Brietbart's case, many of their columnists act as journalist watchdogs, correcting or clarifying articles written by the mainstream media.

        They usually agree on certain fundamental concepts, and many of their writer's argue among themselves as ideas differ widely within those communities. I found Brietbart almost a year and a half ago because of how the MRM reported on Gamergate. That is to say, horribly. I don't agree with many of the things they write, but sometimes their views are accurate.

        [–]AlphabetDeficient [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

        While I probably agree more than not with Breitbart's positions on issues, I can't read them. I find them to be deliberately inflammatory, and often intellectually dishonest, in how they present issues and it really pisses me off. I think that kind of "reporting" is terribly harmful to conservative politics, as it makes it very easy to demonize the right. When you're obviously skewing things to make them appear as worse than they are, it makes it really easy to dismiss everything you say, even when you started with a good point to begin with. The Rebel is also terrible for this.

        [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion!

        [–]AlphabetDeficient [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        You sound like you disagree though. Do you think my assessment is wrong, or do you think that alienating moderates isn't causing issues in the political realm in general for right of center parties?

        [–]LittlestHobot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Here is but one example of why the moderation of this sub is not overly onerous and in fact quite effective:

        There was this post the other day. It was, to be charitable, somewhat naive. It would have been easy for such a post and poster to be ripped to shreds in many other subs. However, this sub demonstrated remarkable decorum and restraint in collective response. Mod deletions were few and the discussion played out in a cordial, if somewhat bemused, fashion. The rules work.

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–]Pippen1984King of a Small Castle [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

          I'm so mad about the mods deleting commentary of this board. How dare they feel they can police a journalist's writing?

          Wait... I'm on the otherside of this issue... Erm..

          Kidding aside, I'm glad. I am actually happy to hear this. One of the aspects of this board that separates it from other political-oriented discussion subreddits, whether they are Canadian or not, is that far too much is passed-off as 'journalism.' Recently, a blogspot.ca post was able to pass muster as a form of journalism, and while I am all for citizen journalism and non-allied journalists getting non-MSM work out there, I feel for the confines of a subreddit with strict decorum rules, it doesn't make sense.

          When we blur the lines of what is acceptable as a form of journalism, we end-up with articles that should be removed. They're subjective opinion pieces with a clear bias that merge 'facts' and blend the truth as a form of persuasive argument. In my opinion that's never acceptable, neither for the political right nor left.

          [–]dmoore13 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

          far too much is passed-off as 'journalism.'

          Is this a politics sub or a news sub?

          [–]Pippen1984King of a Small Castle [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

          Given that much of the debate around politics is news, I would say that line is largely irrelevant.

          [–]dmoore13 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

          It's very relevant when you're suddenly applying journalistic standards to what kind of web content gets to be thrown up for discussion.

          Everyone has opinions on politics. Not everyone is a journalist. Is this /r/CanadaPolitics or /r/CanadaPoliticsNews ?

          [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

          Sure, I'd agree, if what constitutes journalism wasn't subjective. The mods have said as much that what Brietbart wrote was acceptable investigative journalism, yet their criticism of individual's behaviour was insulting. Sure it was, to those individuals; however just two days ago there was an article on the front page about sexism in the restaurant industry, where the major researchers of that data was FEDUP, a feminist organization.

          Thus, any articles written with their influence is going to be biased. And that's fine, biased writers are everywhere in journalism. And sharing that story led to some great discussion. It becomes a problem when certain biases are allowed, and others aren't.

          [–]Pippen1984King of a Small Castle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

          I am very vocal and have at times raised the issue in the past. Look, I'm one of a few people who openly voted Conservative on /r/CanadaPolitics and we all know that this is a fairly left-leaning community. That much isn't up for debate; however, I have also raised the issue about articles and have advocated a stronger removal policy.

          Sure, it's an easy joke: I'm a Conservative and must be an authoritarian; but, the problem is, with the internet, there's too much freedom in what constitutes journalism. We exchange facts for opinions and use the guise of intellectual or journalistic freedom to defend our right to publish articles on this board. Fine. That said, however, the mods don't want to remove a greater number of articles. The irony is, they rarely remove posts. I've advocated for a greater number of these things to be removed. A blogpost about future NDP contenders does not pass my smell test, but it did for the mods.

          So many of the articles, even in MSM, are now opinion pieces that selectively interpret facts and make false comparisons. Half the debate on this sub involves people getting the real facts behind an issue and debunking many of the 'myths' that are now created. It's lamentable; but, what I see in /r/CanadaPolitics that I haven't in a long time is a community interested in debating facts not devolving into emotional arguments about a piece of intellectual real estate. Too often, articles that are impassioned opinion pieces play to our emotional, and not logical, senses and that is what I want curbed.

          I used to belong to another political forum that started-out a lot like this one. The problem arose when a few posters felt that they should have free reign to post whatever they wanted and it ended-up driving people away. The left-leaning posters felt victimized and chose to spend their energies elsewhere on the internet which hobbled the community. As much as people disagree with me, imagine /r/CanadaPolitics without people who didn't largely disagree with the prevailing attitude? But imagine if our arguments were purely emotional. It would be a train wreck.

          I get that there's a very fine line between freedom and censorship, and I am very open to writing whatever you want and publishing it. I believe in the absolute right of free speech; but, I don't believe that you cannot set parameters to free speech. I like what Penn Jillette had to say about the firing of Anthony Cumia (and I'm paraphrasing): You have every right to say what you want, but your employer has every right to disagree with you and fire you. CanadaPolitics has made a conscious choice and I think they should enforce a removal order on articles that are too heavily opinion focused.

          [–]Whiskeyjack1989Libertarian[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

          It's hard not to talk about politics without stating your opinion. Most of what goes on in here is opinion, people talking along their own political and ideological lines. While I agree that opinion pieces have dominated journalism for some time now, often citing false statistics, the best thing we can do is to challenge these journalists to be better.

          We should be debunking facts and debating policy on this sub; dismissing certain journalists because of their biases isn't productive.

          Otherwise, great post. There's a lot I agree with you on; I don't want this place to turn in to a low quality sub dominated by low quality content. We just disagree on what makes certain journalists subjectively good.