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Bernie & Irony... (imgur.com)

chabanaisStronger than derp. が 投稿

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[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (59子コメント)

Sigh, I'm not seeing much maturity in the responses so I'll clarify. Sanders wants non corrupt government to represent the people rather than be influenced by corporate influences. It's not more government he wants it's non corrupt. The issue is that as society right now is heavily linked to corrupt funding and influence, the government has to grow with a non corrupt leader at the head of it so it can exert force on the corrupting elements and bring things back into focus.

His views once looked at for what they really are, are incredibly admirable and I full heartedly support the purging of corruption. Merely being elected would enable him to purge ten thousand leadership positions as president in the executive branch agencies. But we all know that another president would barely shake things up and fill seats with supporters and friends and contributors and those that had been there last time. In effect his first decisions would remove more corruption elements than we've had removed in a century.

When another president can be honestly believed to be willing to do that, then that will get me to pay attention, but the republican candidates and Hillary won't be doing that and we all know it.

My goal is to discuss issues, not attack ridiculous non issue statements. (If you reply with insults towards Sanders and you can't 100% prove what you're saying with non biased and reputable sources and citations, then you're just going to be ignored as it's just pointless lies and attacks that don't mean anything, likewise if you attack the person rather than the argument, or ignore what I just typed and then attack him anyway.)

Edit: It seems Trojan and Chabanis have a type of circle jerk echo chamber going on where they just constantly reinforce how horrible everyone thinking differently is. That's the danger when we attack people and don't look at the issues.

Edit: Banned by the moderators (the threads OP apparently? He posted this in Libertarian as well and people pointed it out for the shit post it was) it seems. So it seems this sub doesn't have a vested interest in talking about things rationally and with good points, politeness, respect, and rationality. I'll just advocate that research is a great thing, and I strongly advocate that. I restate my point and hope people realize that going forward. Pleasant day.

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (49子コメント)

You don't make government less corrupt by growing it and increasing its revenue (i.e. Raising taxes.) The federal government needs to be neutered, not expanded, aka Bernie's plan, because let's assume Bernie had nothing but good intentions. We still have to pass off this expanded government to someone else who might not have good intentions.

[–]obeytrafficlights [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Actually, I am not sure about these ideas at all. If you compared our government and other, high revenue-based governments (US, Germany, UK, France, Sweden, Japan) to other large bureaucratic systems with low revenue, (India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Russia), you will notice that corruption doesnt follow your pattern at all.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

you will notice that corruption doesnt follow your pattern at all.

Proof?

[–]majoen98 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The "proof" is that thos first countries have large governments, with higher taxes, or at least higher revenue, than the second group, while still being far less corupt.

[–]exigence [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You are comparing mostly western countries, who have had a long time with the rule of law and Judeo Christian morality system with non western countries who have had no such influence. Also, I find the idea that communist China is a "low revenue" country laughable.

[–]Notoday [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

Corruption has little to do with the size of a government. What's important is where the money comes from, the level of transparency, accountability and the ability of voters to effectively influence the government. Sanders' platform wants to change all that, I believe. Expanding a government doesn't necessarily make it more prone to corruption, and shrinking it doesn't make it any less. They are unrelated or practically unrelated.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

Corruption has little to do with the size of a government.

Prove it.

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

Only businesses and corporations become more corrupt with size. Not benevolent government.

[–]stubingConservative [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

You don't think small companies can be corrupt?

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Sure they can, but their amount of influence is minuscule due to them being small. My point is it's almost impossible to be gigantic in size and not generate a self-interested bureaucracy. See the VA for an example.

[–]stubingConservative [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So your solution when someone has a disease is to cut off all their limbs, make them a vegetable, and ignore the disease?

Just cure the fucking disease.

Seriously, this isn't a government size problem, but this subreddit has their head so far up their ass that they need to make everything about the size of the government. I get that you guys want the government to be smaller, but that is a separate debate.

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No my solution is when something is wildly corrupt you don't grow it in some vain hope than by making it more powerful and bigger you will make it better. You can feel free to get angry and call names, but it won't change that simple fact.

[–]Samuelgin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it's far easier for government to corrupt. they promise people money that isn't theirs to get unions and other interest groups to promise them votes. and the government will never willingly downsize itself which means there's more money for government officials to do with as they please

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Government is your friend because it represents the will of the people!

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

The problem with the will of the people is by definition half of the people are below average in intelligence. Ha!

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I was being sarcastic.

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

No I understood that as well, I'm assuming you knew I was being sarcastic as well. I cannot fathom how people don't see having a governmental position is wildly corrupting. See: Mrs. Clinton. Any civilian had done what she did, they would be in a cell already.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I cannot fathom how people don't see having a governmental position is wildly corrupting.

Well, this is Reddit...

[–]DeLLy- [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Frankly I think you're both wrong. Size does matter. As with many things in life you need to have a happy medium. We as people need to have a lot of freedoms from government but at the same time people are selfish and can't always be expected to look at the greater good which is why we need the government. Unfortunately we have a bunch of selfish people in the government only looking out for themselves and the people who pay them which is why we need to end this legal bribery.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

So you honestly believe that if you take a collection of people who are selfish, uncaring, and thoughtless and group them together they will somehow become benevolent and loving?

[–]DeLLy- [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

We need a group of people to keep each other in check, yes. What we have now is many people being given money by businesses. We need a some high ranking government officials to get rid of the legal bribery so people will think for themselves.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

We need a some high ranking government officials to get rid of the legal bribery so people will think for themselves.

So you think the only reason people don't "think for themselves" is because of donors?

[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

If you have a bully how can you push that bully away? You either need someone stronger to help you or you need to get a group of your friends so he has less strength against you. Corporate influence right now is far too heavy and too thorough, you'll need to both remove connections from that influence of politics and you'll then need to grow those "pure" connections until they have the strength to push on the more corrupt and corrupting elements so that some change can be made.

You can't fight corruption by reducing your army.

The federal government was never the problem, it was people and in general people who were willing to be corrupted and likewise who were willing to defend that or to do it in the first place. Since we can't kill all people or change that, the best we can do is to expand non corrupt sources while neutering corrupted sources at the same time. To do that one must both purge corporate influence and campaign funding corruption as well as move against those elements seeking to corrupt them. There's no other way unless you can change human nature.

The too long didn't read result is that you have one corrupt source one non corrupt source and the corruptors. The corrupt source is large, the non corrupt source is small, you need to grow the small, institute non corrupt leaders in the corrupt source so you can take a top down approach, and then you need to fight the corrupting sources which will still be trying to continue what they do. Thus you'll need numbers which requires strength and a larger pressuring government to accomplish.

I should add that if you're just going to insult Sanders like some commenters have, then there's no purpose replying as attacking the person, especially with non issue and false statements and definitions you don't really even understand... is useless compared to discussing real issues.

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

You never stopped to think that maybe "sources" aren't corrupt but rather the system of regulation forcing corporations to employ legions of lawyers, accountants and lobbyists.

It's not the corporations that are corrupt, it's government intrusion that exerts a corrupting influence. Union bosses influencing politicians to legislate more favorable conditions, etc.

Try to see the difference.

[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

Not when you listen to what they think, no, it's pretty clear that corporations and most employers don't represent their employees anymore, nor do they desire what's best for them so much as what's best for the top. And that isn't something I'll be okay with.

I know intricately how the real leadership decisions are made, who makes them, and what the factoring behind them is, and it is indeed a level of desire for them despite what cost it may be for others. The system didn't need to exist for them, because if it didn't they would have made one. That's how many of these corporate loopholes and tax loopholes exist, because of the sheer pressure they put on it.

I'll never forget the day I learned about deferred taxes.

It's the corporate leadership that's corrupt and so long as they can hoard the wealth in that top 1% category, they will continually recycle that corruption and that wealth into more corruption, because it becomes impossible for them to recognize how things work for everyone else or care. It's time to stop hating the poor, the employees, and the lowest prongs and stop hating downward. It's time to look at those paying us and seeing just what they're really doing.

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Loopholes exist because government creates them. If government didn't have the power to create a loophole there wouldn't be a need for corporations to seek them.

Can't you see it's the power that corrupts?

[–]stubingConservative [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Loopholes exist because government creates them.

After corporations bribed the politicians. The honest politicians don't get reelected since they don't get enough campaign "donations" to compete with the other guy who will do the bidding of corporations.

If government didn't have the power to create a loophole there wouldn't be a need for corporations to seek them.

So what is your proposed solution? These tax laws aren't created as "loop hole #823." If you are proposing some sort of flat tax, good luck getting these bribed politicians to pass that law.

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

So you're saying we should resist all attempts to expand the power of government. I agree with this, of course.

[–]stubingConservative [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Holy shit. Where did I say anything about being for or against the expansion of government? The size of the government is irrelevant to this problem. Even if we made the government tiny, we would still have this problem of corporate bribes.

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

You just said the power to create loopholes only exists because corporations lobbied for their existence. This implies an expansion of power at the behest of lobbyists.

If the power to create a loophole is not inherent to the system, then that power must be created before it can be corrupted. Ergo, we should resist the attempt to create the power to create loopholes.

A prime example of this is ObamaCare. Before ACA, unions did not need to lobby for a loophole. Post ACA, unions lobby for exemption.

[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

If I pay you a million dollars, how likely is it I can get you to give me that 50% coupon (I've been a cash clerk before, there's a lot of coupon codes that are static that we know about) when I buy stuff at your store. You are the cash clerk after all, and you have very little reason now to fear any repercussion.

Power does nothing on its own. Human motives corrupt. Power, just like money or guns if you'd like can do nothing on their own. It matters what the motive and intent behind their use is.

So long as someone with ill or greedy intent exists they will find someone willing to listen. The solution is to have a massive amount of checks and balances to prevent that and to get that there, you have to have non corrupt people create it. To get non corrupt people, it seems these days you need to really look for those that hate corruption and to hate corruption you must see it first hand.

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If I didn't have any coupons to begin with your bribe is pointless.

The existence of power is sufficient to cause corruption. The moment someone is placed in the position to alter the fate of another the survival instinct activates to influence that decision.

That is human nature, and its motive is survival.

[–]DeLLy- [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Loopholes exist because the corporations bought the people with power whom then made loopholes. If the people in power were willing to stand up to corporations there wouldn't be loopholes.

Why would the people in power even consider loopholes if the corporations didn't push for it first?

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

The ability to create a loophole is the problem. Not the people seeking them. Why should a politician be vested with the ability to create a loophole if no one should have them? Why does the power exist in the first place if not to pick & choose who gets one? Is that not an invitation for corruption?

[–]DeLLy- [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

You're right. It shouldn't be possible but that isn't the only thing politicians can do. Making it hard for solar power to be used in this country. Why? Because oil and coal industries don't want to lose out. Want different internet that isn't complete shit? Sorry, politicians won't allow you to have more than one cable in your area.

It's not all loopholes that are full of shit.

Is anyone going to fix any of this? Only one person running for president isn't accepting money. Doesn't it seem likely that he would be likely to fix corruption instead of someone accepting money and owing these corporations something in return?

[–]wethedownvotedNeoconservative [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The problem of solar is that it provides power inconsistently. It can be expressed using an analogy:

Imagine you own a restaurant. Like all restaurants, you make most of your money during lunch & dinner.

Now imagine between noon and 1pm and then again between 5 and 7pm a food truck pulls up right in front of your business and starts selling at 50% of your prices.

This is what solar does to coal/nuclear/gas plants. Peak generation for solar is noon-afternoon for reasons that should be obvious (wind behaves similarly). Quite coincidentally, peak consumption also happens at same time (air conditioners, office workers, etc.).

One more non-coincidental fact is that power prices are also at their highest during this time and this is when traditional power companies make their money.

Solar comes along with their food truck and takes it for themselves while traditional power is told, "you must power us through the night at reduced rates". Well, they can't afford to do that.

Anyway, the point of all that is it's a complex problem and no politician is going to solve it -- it's a problem for business to solve.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's the corporate leadership that's corrupt.

Prove it.

[–]TrojanDynasty [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Where did I insult Sanders? It's not a Sanders issues. It's a reality issue. Power corrupts. It's the nature of giving someone increased power that corrupts people. I don't feel comfortable turning over more power and funds to the government under any individual.

Government inherently is corrupt. They are the ones taking the bribes from corporations and unions to pad their coffers. No one is forcing them to take that money. It takes two to tango in that crony capitalist game. Why do you absolve the government half of this equation?

[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I didn't absolve it, what exactly do you think purge corruption means? It means removing the people responsible and yeah I would fully heartedly support legal efforts if possible but sadly the law doesn't really have much against most corruption instances so that's not going to happen.

Government isn't inherently corrupt, nor are people. The desire for more, especially in a society where wealth is so concentrated at one level rather than dispersed, is what can lead to corruption. I'll admit whole heartedly if someone gave me a job that would let me pay off loans easily and live in a state I'd enjoy.. let's say 125,000 a year. I'd be far more willing to go along with what my benefactor said. But I hate corruption and I grew up in a society that showed so much corruption everywhere. As such I have a vested interest to constantly be on the lookout. Do people who grew up in the midst of being corrupt really have that? I don't believe so. That's one of the reasons I feel a much younger group needs to take more control and authority, especially when they're plugged into the neural social networks of the internet intrinsically.

Why you ask? Because that enables them to really get a wide breath of information outside of the typical sources dominated by corporate news media or entertainment news, and indeed it allows people to get out of echo chambers and see multiple discussions they might not like to see. It isn't the older people that are going to be doing that sadly.

I don't feel comfortable AS IT IS, any improvement regardless of what it takes to do is the step that I'm going to support, because if we can improve things and then adjust things that's a lot better than things not being able to be improved or adjusted at all.

Sanders has had numerous political opportunities to corrupt himself for money. He has not done that, his record shows this, his recorded speeches even to empty rooms show this, and voting record and the CONTEXT of that voting record show this, as do the vast immensity of his contributions. I can not say the same for any other candidate running for President and therefore I do not have any worry about him becoming corrupt. It is the first time I can say I think a person elected might actually represent and do exactly what he said. He doesn't have to succeed, he just has to fight for us to his best ability.

[–]NakedAndBehindYou [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sanders wants non corrupt government

Everybody wants non corrupt government. But that's like wanting our cars to run on happy thoughts instead of gasoline.

Conservative rightfully recognize that every power given to government will be abused by those who seek power over others. Thus, the best prognosis is to avoid giving government that power to begin with, and leave the people to be free.

[–]Tripline [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In this post you ask people not to attack you or sanders or else you will ignore them. I see no one that has "attacked" you and yet every reply is you calling the other poster dumb when they try to have a discussion with you.

[–]chabanaisStronger than derp.[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Sanders wants non corrupt government to represent the people rather than be influenced by corporate influences.

I'd like to win the lottery and raise unicorns.

I doubt that will happen.

I don't see a Nanny State with the power to confiscate happening without an oppressive Government also happening.

Having a large, powerful, intrusive Government is most definitely an issue. Especially with dolts like Sanders.

[–]DeLLy- [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Doesn't need to be Sanders leading the charge. I'd vote for a Republican if they really wanted to end the loopholes and campaign finance. But everyone is up the establishment's bum.

[–]MiyegomboBayartsogtSupporter [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

There is an old song by a British band now dead and gone about not getting fooled again. It is an admirable sentiment wasted on many. The same generation who deified Obama now seek to fill the emptiness with some ol' Bolshevik bastard and imaginary sweet goodness and light. Of course, Communists purge people. Pol Pot purged with extreme prejudice a generation of Cambodians hoping to turn the country's corruption into mounds of scorched human skulls. For a time, even Noam Chomsky was giddy with delight at the bourgeoisie bodies boating in the killing fields. Of course, in the end, even Pol Pot couldn't purge his way to utopian collectivism.

There is little redeeming about the stodgy Stalinist Sanders. A self-described "son-of-a-bitch," Sanders lies, and the yearning youth forgive him for his public lies. Standers is clueless about the economy, business and free enterprise. He appeals to the callow crowd which shares his stupidity. We can hope most of these will grow up and out of this nonsense, but some, like Sanders, will bitterly cling to outdated dogma way into old age. This is fine as long as these people are out of power.

[–]Delsana [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

First, you're not even referring to Sanders in how he actually is so your hogwash attempt to portray him as something he isn't with scare tactics needs to stop, I spend a lot of damn researching in politics and so you'll have to take a different approach if you want me to consider your words.

You've basically decided to ignore how society is changing, how the representation of people is progressing and how the desire to remove corruption and pro-corporate focuses is the big thing right now. You may not like it for whatever reason but that's the fluid progression. Your desire to insult people you don't even know with ridiculous statements is silly. And only hurts the party you're attempting to represent.

Honestly I'm hoping you grow up. Come back when you have a real discussion.

[–]MiyegomboBayartsogtSupporter [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Are you even slightly familiar with Bernie "B.S." Sanders pro-Soviet past? I understand the youth today are as ignorant of history as they are desirous to repeat the past as farce. Most millennials -- especially those going into great debt buying a worthless degree in leftist doctrine and soggy structural feminism -- are more interested in wallowing in abject self pity and PC self righteousness than the search for truth. We must accept this sad state of the thin-skinned generation of sheltered safety schools safe spaces. Still, saying that doesn't mean all adults need pander to the delicate sensitivities of the callow class.

Interesting you chose to ignore the fact your Democrats are set to nominate the crass Clinton crime family as their candidate for president. Clinton Inc., as you surely know, has raised nearly $2 billion in untaxed funds from pro-corporate forces, foreign dictators, petroleum potentates, billionaire tax cheats, Russian uranium miners and international arms dealers. One imagines you will weep bitter tears when you finally are forced into voting for this rapacity, serial rape and avarice, but you will still cast a Clinton ballot. For the sake of the Party.

The problem one finds with the kids "feeling the Berne" when they urinate is that they won't discuss Sanders' outdated ideology. Again, this stems from the fact few, if any, know their past. Bernie has been isolated on the kook fringe of leftist American politics for longer than most of his followers have been alive. He is the crazy uncle who never got a job, never accomplished great things, but, growing old, can can spin a magical socialist yarn the kids find entertaining and appealing. Just elect this guy and you won't have to pay your Marxist professors, won't have to learn work habits, won't have to take responsibility for your lives. Everything will be provided based on need, everything taken based on the whim of a big government industrial complex. Never mind we are already $20 trillion in debt, the grandkids can bear that burden.

Sanders is running a cynical campaign to keep the youth vote out and interested. When it comes time, he will collect his millions in unused campaign funds, pass his voters to the Clinton Corp, and retire a very, very rich socialist. It is too bad you are disillusioned about these things. But that's good. It's the first step in casting off the illusions keeping you down.