全 49 件のコメント

[–]StalgondoThe vultures have come home to nest - https://goo.gl/WKC13U 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[–]Psychohorakbrb: roaming in a muddy ditch 15ポイント16ポイント  (23子コメント)

Do you spend your days looking for news that in your mind serve as proof for your point of view?

Unlike the left, the non-alt right's of this subreddit don't deny the problems in the Middle East or with Islam. The claim that this would somehow be inherent to the genetics of the people is nothing more than a childish allegation however.

EDIT: I accidentally a word

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 10ポイント11ポイント  (16子コメント)

The claim that this would somehow be inherent to the genetics of the people there is nothing more than a childish allegation.

You're strawmanning every "hereditarian" as a pol-tier retard. If we assume that, for instance, Syrians' average IQ of 83 (which falls in the "ideal" range for criminality) would not have an effect on their behavior is insane, we know that IQ:

  1. Is consistently negatively correlated with religiosity (plenty of intelligent religious people, just a trend)
  2. Is negatively correlated with delinquency, as well as violent and anti-social behavior
  3. Is consistently positively correlated with both wealth and even more so with income
  4. Is consistently (~0.4-0.6) correlated with brain size via MRI and other measurements

Even if IQ differences across racial groups are 100% environmental, it would still take several generations for Syrians (with worse parenting, lower initial IQs, lower educational attainment, lower incomes as a result of the previous two) could still have a somewhat consistent IQ, even with generous government benefits (muh bennies). Meaning differences in crimes and acceptance of economic facts/basic historical knowledge. If you happen to care about libertarianism, low IQ populations are not your friend, even if they're only low IQ due to discrimination and socioeconomics.

PhD Anthropologist Alondra Oubré has written a great article on "The Warrior Gene" tl;dr it's strongly correlated with crime (it predicts delinquency WITHIN a racial group, I don't mean look blacks have this genes and whites don't that would be bullshit obviously, it predicts crime within ethnic groups)- it's not shared equally among various ethnic groups, so better not mention it! Which is actually super fucking evil, because the people that carry the MAOA-2R are predisposed to extreme violence especially if they've been abused- shouldn't we do everything we can to tell the people whose kids are most likely to carry it "stop abusing your kids pls."

So, no one would claim Muslims are just lacking the "white gene" therefore they're subhuman (no one worth mentioning in a debate.) Most racists don't have a rational view of science, but support most of the conclusions of hereditarianism (except when it is inconvenient for them)- but the majority of anti-racists also have no ability to make a rational case for the scientific theory supporting their cause, the environmentalist view. So, basically, we can talk about retarded anti-racists and racists, wow, they're retarded and don't adhere to the scientific method, cool, or we could actually debate within the rational realm of whether or not group differences are innate or environmental and what combination is likely, if any exists, and what effects we can expect given the validity of one theory or the other. Clearly, we should either do the latter, or stop circle jerking about how stupid people who have low-IQs and strong cognitive biases are (circlejerking about the stupidity of people who don't submit their empirical beliefs to the test of aligning with reality.)

I'm not going to try to make an airtight case for hereditarianism here, but I would ask you to look into how the two different theories of racial IQ gaps could account for these "hateful" questions/statements:

  1. There are a wide variety of physiological differences, resulting from the different environmental pressures of different ethnic groups. Blacks have broader shoulders and narrow hips (more efficient stride) than whites, and whites have broader shoulders and narrower hips than Asians; blacks have shorter gestation periods than whites, whites shorter gestation periods than Asians; blacks can support their head/back of their own volition earlier than whites, and whites earlier than Asians; brain size is correlated with IQ (0.4-0.6) consistently, and Asians have the largest brain size, then whites, then blacks. Given that there are a wide variety of innate physiological differences between racial groups (races which are admittedly somewhat arbitrarily defined but are not "social constructs"), and that these differences resulted from tens of thousands of years of differing environmental pressures, does it not stand to reason that these environments had different pressures and natural selection, therefore, might have selected for different IQs? For example, if in tropical climates where natural selection might have primarily focused on individuals' immune systems instead of other valuable traits, does it not stand to reason that environments with less of a focus on strong immune systems could select for other valuable traits (IQs in those environments would be "less random" as selection would be more focused towards intelligence than disease resistance)?
  2. Given that IQ has a cost (larger brain size, which is necessary for higher IQ, is very calorie intensive), does it not stand to reason that if IQ could be higher and be beneficial natural selection would select for it, and conversely, IQs beyond the "ideal" point for IQ would be ceteris paribus inferior to slightly lower IQs in that environment?
  3. If discrimination against blacks causes their IQ to be lower than whites, who is discriminating against whites to cause their IQs to be lower than Asians and Ashkenazi Jews?
  4. Would the environmentalist model of IQ predict that Ashkenazi Jews who lived in societies strongly biased against them for hundreds of years would have high IQs? Would this model predict that blacks in all 50 states, whether particularly liberal or conservative (aka racist in liberal speak), would this model predict that blacks would score lower than whites in every single state, county, and city, no matter how liberal?
  5. Could even 10% of these consistent IQ differences be a result of genetic distinctions and not solely cultural/socioeconomic ones?
  6. This is a bit redundant, but: is the most rational view, disregarding a desire for everyone to be equal, that "divergent" evolution between races stopped within the brain, but did change the size of the cranial cavity to be larger in groups that today score higher on IQ tests, skull shape, facial structure, number of vertebrae, length of pregnancy, size of hips (to meet the needs of larger/smaller skulls), length of appendages, and many other physiological features?

You might consider looking at this. It's by Rushton, who is a controversial figure, but even if you hate him for his support for hereditarianism, he does a great job of giving you the basic definitions and data that everyone agrees on (almost), it's the interpretation OF the data that differs. I would encourage you to avoid left-wing blogs on this debate, as they are about as unbiased a source for information as stormfront; I am not saying you should avoid environmentalists scientists, I am saying you should avoid left-wing sophists.

Oh, and full disclosure for the sake of honesty, of the people who are "hereditarians" there are two types, generally speaking:

  1. You have hereditarians who probably were left-of-center "common sense anti-racists" for most of their life who had an emotional aversion to theories claiming that racial differences in IQ are innate, but certain facts seemed to really be outside of what environmentalists predict, and due to the data they were led towards a conclusion that differences are real. This was actually me, I then decided that this information was repulsive, read one article that said "hereditarianism is wrong" and didn't look at it for three years. Smart money says that most people are more dutiful censors of their own thought than I have been.

  2. You have hereditarians who eagerly endorse the conclusions of this theory as it can in some ways support their hatred of other groups of people. As I've pointed out, not all racists are hereditarians, but I am absolutely willing to admit that most racists support the general idea of this theory. At which point you should be wondering why do we even debate this? Well, if race differences in IQ are innate, this means that certain groups will inevitably have poorer outcomes, and if we're all dogmatic environmentalists this will create permanent conflict as we try to solve the unsolvable problem of inherent inequality- not to say that no one in the US is racist, but again, worst case scenario, it's really important to answer these questions. Honestly, I'm not sure "everyone is equal except because of culture" is even the best case scenario, because frankly I would rather be tasked with trying to alter the expression of certain genes than unfucking, for example, Syria's culture.

[–]lib-boyPolycentrist 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

You might consider looking at this.

Thanks for the link!

I suspect I'm like many on this sub: I think the 100% nurture argument is absurd in the face of adoption studies, but haven't the interest to really delve too deeply into genetics and other mechanisms of IQ heritability. You seem like you're both knowledgeable and relatively objective, so I'd be interested to hear your full opinion on the matter.

Would the environmentalist model of IQ predict that Ashkenazi Jews who lived in societies strongly biased against them for hundreds of years would have high IQs?

Doesn't the theory of Ashkenazi Jew IQ have more to do with a literacy requirement of their religion than anything else?

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Doesn't the theory of Ashkenazi Jew IQ have more to do with a literacy requirement of their religion than anything else?

Well, you can look up a piece called "Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" online, which certainly has been a controversial hypothesis, but I think the way I would put is that since Jews could not own land, to be a "provider" as men were almost exclusively, women needed a man with the IQ or some kind of acquired skill beyond just basic farming which would be enough (with luck) to raise a family for the average non-Jew, meaning high-IQ was almost a necessary requirement for male Jews to procreate. By the way, Rushton (whose study I linked to) is, again, far from controversial, but I don't think people like Flynn or Turkheimer would call him intentionally dishonest (though I may be mistaken, I'm not even a particular expert among laymen). Also, Rabbis would be the most verbally intelligent and the most attractive to women (as they had the highest status, and like it or not that's a thing that women sorta like, even if you're otherwise a bit repulsive, see: Henry Kissinger.)

All this stuff is hotly debated, I'm of the belief that the differences could easily be 50% genetic, but it's hard to say given that professionals seem to have trouble even agreeing if the IQ differential disappears when you account for socioeconomics (which would limit the debate on the cause of differences to parenting or genetics, pretty much, maybe "racism" or "culture" but that's sorta covered by socioeconomics) I can't say with certainty which theory of the causes is most probably true. Anyways, these issues are important to talk about but I get that if we had rock-solid proof of the hereditarian position, the resulting shift in world view wouldn't necessarily be elegant. Still, if you're a libertarian IQ is pretty important. One important thing to do is not to get to settled into your essentially unproven beliefs over time and keep your mind open, as these debates are ultimately about reality and not our preferences. This does not mean that if you don't change your beliefs you're a dogmatic ideologue, but you should always try to be as honest as possible and disclose what "could have gone wrong" in your attempts to prove either theory/hypothesis.

[–]PhrenicoAnti-egalitarianism 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting effortposts.

I'm of the belief that the differences could easily be 50% genetic

In case you've never gotten caught up in this, do you know how you can measure a proportion of differences? There are multiple answers, none are obvious (nor perfect).

[–]natermer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any argument that uses IQ as the basis for it is the classic example of 'begging the question'.

[–]PhrenicoAnti-egalitarianism 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Doesn't the theory of Ashkenazi Jew IQ have more to do with a literacy requirement of their religion than anything else?

That's still consistent with the hereditarian position: smart Jews stayed in the religion and reproduced, dumb Jews left. But I don't think it's that simple. For one, the Sephardic Jews follow the same religion but aren't as smart as the Ashkenazi ones.

[–]LookingForMySelfOh boy, I never asked for this. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the 100% nurture argument is absurd

They are pretty much interrelated and I heard a point of view that juxtaposition of two is itself erroneous.

[–]Psychohorakbrb: roaming in a muddy ditch 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

If we assume that, for instance, Syrians' average IQ of 83 (which falls in the "ideal" range for criminality) would not have an effect on their behavior is insane

When have I ever assumed that?

it would still take several generations for Syrians (with worse parenting, lower initial IQs, lower educational attainment, lower incomes as a result of the previous two) could still have a somewhat consistent IQ, even with generous government benefits

Again, I never claimed against this. The cultural environment of Islam and the Middle East has a massive negative impact on the people of that region. I'm not sure what point you're making? It's as if you're assuming that I am going to deny any claims that criticize Islam or the related cultures. The only thing I am saying is that the assumption that genetics is the main factor in determining IQ, potential criminal behavior, trustworthiness and work ethic is completely lacking in evidence. Just how you criticize the left of collectivising "the rich" and "the bourgeoisie", you instead complete a similarly arbitrary collectivization based on people's race.

IQ

IQ, IQ, IQ. Do you have anything else to offer that is worthy of discussion? You cannot base an entire social and political ideology on one quotient.

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

When have I ever assumed that [the average IQ of 83 would not have an effect]?

Woops, looks like I strawman'd people, my bad. How ironic given that I just called out other people for strawmanning...

Again, I never claimed against this [consistency of IQ despite moving to a different country]. The cultural environment of Islam and the Middle East has a massive negative impact on the people of that region.

Ok, I should be more precise in future so as to avoid strawman arguments, good point.

The only thing I am saying is that the assumption that genetics is the main factor in determining IQ, potential criminal behavior, trustworthiness and work ethic is completely lacking in evidence.

Well, IQ is a huge factor in determining potential criminal behavior, so whether or not genetics determines crime largely depends upon your genes' ability to affect your IQ.

IQ, IQ, IQ. Do you have anything else to offer that is worthy of discussion? You cannot base an entire social and political ideology on one quotient.

I don't base my entire social and political ideology on it. In fact, those came far before I ever adopted remotely heterodox views on IQ and its correlation with genes/likelihood of genetics as the cause of group differences in that measure (IQ).

Do you have anything else to offer that is worthy of discussion?

Yeah, probably, but I actually do like to talk about edgy topics which are, potentially, extremely consequential in many practical ways. To give a practical example, if we can't expect a close in racial IQ gaps, this would actually preclude one potential "an-cap implementation" method proposed (beyond seasteading and the like) which was to get a bunch of libertarians to move to an African country with an ineffective state, invest in/educate the population, try to get the people to appreciate/understand liberty without propagandizing them (I'm sure the left would criticize any efforts to promote libertarianism via promoting historical/economical understandings amenable to liberty as propaganda, but they think that saying "FDR and big government policies solved the Great Depression, end of story," is totally okay and not propaganda at all) and soon you can have people who would be prime to abandon statism. But if their IQs are pretty much stuck, beyond a few things we can change in their environment to raise it to still be a standard deviation below the average of whites, well this method would certainly have even more challenges than might be initially assumed, namely, it would be predicated upon low-IQ individuals being capable of understanding ideas which are not easily boiled down to catchphrases like "those bourgeois white capitalists are oppressing you, (what have they ever done for you except all that stuff they did)!" Just to clarify, I'm not endorsing apartheid states, I'm saying if we went over and built a bunch of shit I'm pretty sure leftists would be happy to call us evil for doing so, even if we sank massive investments into the communities and made essentially no profits, which is in my view charity and not exploitation.

[–]5aml1Hillary 2k16 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

As far as I can tell you are making three main points which are all false. Firstly you are asserting the IQ is a legitimate, unbiased, and definitive measure of intelligence or societal worth. Secondly you seem to be claiming that the study of head sizes and shapes (Craniology) is a legitimate scientific theory. And thirdly you seem to be claiming that a persons life is mostly defined by their genetics.

Firstly your point about IQ is simply false. The best predictor for IQ is not race, country of origin, or any other possible factor that could be linked to a persons race, but rather is most closely correlated with income1. To claim that a country embroiled in turmoil which already did not have the best economy is inferior due to their lower IQ scores is to ignore the greatest factor in IQ. Another potential issue in your argument is the nature of this 'average' IQ. By what means are you finding the average IQ for a nation. How would the average IQ be found in a multitude of cultures. There is no doubt that issues with translation could make this test less valid. Furthermore how can one guarantee that the section of the population surveyed is representative of the entire populations IQ. Logically, a country like Syria would have a much harder time finding a representative section of their country and sitting them for a standardised IQ test. The logistics of assembling that group of people in a war torn country is nearly insurmountable. Furthermore the notion that IQ scores are genetically transferred is ridiculous. The heritability of IQ is rather low at birth but rises as the person ages2. This shows that environment has a much higher role in the transfer of intelligence than genetics does. This also explains that countries where educations is accessible generally have better IQ scores. To claim that a country is a lost cause due to their low IQ is simply a conclusion drawn to reinforce your feelings of racial superiority.

Secondly your argument that Craniology is a valid tool to measure intelligence and value to society (as previously, you linked a supposed high intelligence to high societal value) is frankly not made from a scientific standpoint. Craniology is a 'scientific' area that is not respected in the slightest. No current doctor or scientist takes the view that head measurements are a valid form to gauge overall intelligence for a person, let along an entire race of people. The last time that Craniology was used, was in the justification and classification of the exterminations of undesirables in the holocaust. The reason that this is an entirely dismissed 'scientific' theory is because of the entire lack of consistency in results. No two craniologists can replicate each others results because those results are largely fabricated. (The lack of citations in this section is due to the fact that it is impossible to prove a negative and the burden of proof rests on the person who makes the claim, or in this case, the person who asserts the validity of this unscientific method)

Thirdly, and more generally, you seem to be arguing that nature is the most important factor in determining the value of a human. By simplifying a persons life to their genetics you ignore their individuality. Like /u/psychohorak says:

The cultural environment of Islam and the Middle East has a massive negative impact on the people of that region

The fact of the matter is that the culture of an area has much greater impact than the genetics of any section of people. The nature of humanity is that people can and often do become more than their genetics. Someone born to poverty from moronic parents can rise out of that (provided that the culture in which they live doesn't inhibit them). To claim that genetics are the sole (or even a majority) of what a person can become denies that person their individuality.

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

As far as I can tell you are making three main points which are all false. Firstly you are asserting the IQ is a legitimate, unbiased, and definitive measure of intelligence or societal worth

And seeing as you cite... two sources for these subjects which have been the subject of significant debate, I'm admittedly already doubting your rather certain conclusions. Also, I feel that when you say I've made the point that IQ is "a definitive measure of societal worth" that you've misrepresented my position (probably not intentionally), I would not say IQ is not a linear determinate of success, but it's a fantastic measure, and that's according to one of your sources. I also would like to clarify what you called one of my "main points", what you call "societal worth" I will call "financial success and aversion to delinquency." Neither of us have defined societal worth it would be pointless for me to assert measures of financial success/low criminality meet both of our definitions of societal worth- and remember, this is a debate about what I've said, so please don't respond to this by merely asserting that I don't know what I was trying to say in my first post. Alright, now for the rest of your post:

Firstly your point about IQ is simply false. The best predictor for IQ is not race, country of origin, or any other possible factor that could be linked to a persons race, but rather is most closely correlated with income1

I've never said that race and those other factors you listed are the best predictors of IQ, and I am happy to admit they aren't, this does not mean that "hereditarians" are wrong (even if race is "a poor predictor of IQ" it would still be possible that 50% of any racial gap in IQ scores is genetic/inherent or permanent in the practical short-term.) I'm also afraid that your source on IQ/income correlations debunks your other point that IQ is not a legitimate measure of "success" remember that my definition of success, here, is largely focused on financial success: "Evidence continues to debunk the popular idea that IQ is largely irrelevant to success above 120, and my less successful readers are going absolutely ballistic. The reason this idea is so popular (and its debunking so threatening) is that the internet is crawling with people who are either only moderately intelligent or only moderately successful; and they take comfort in believing they achieved their modest success by being way smarter than the homeless guy on the street, but hysteria ensues if you suggest that some gazillionaire pizza mogul is richer than they are because of brains. Thus, these self-serving elitist snobs want IQ and money to be correlated, but only up to either their level of money or their level of IQ (whichever comes first). This allows them to feel intellectually superior to the poor who they view as too dumb to meet basic needs, while also feeling morally superior to the rich who they view as greedy and ruthless." In short, your source is saying that IQ is well correlated with IQ at all levels, as shown in this graph.

To claim that a country embroiled in turmoil which already did not have the best economy is inferior due to their lower IQ scores is to ignore the greatest factor in IQ.

Syria had low average IQ scores before the "civil war" (it's not a civil war more of a giant clusterfuck proxy war)- well before it. Also, applying the racist rhetoric of "inferiority" does not prove racism on the part of any hereditarian theorist, if I say that your ancestors adapted to have IQs that were 5 points higher because the behaviors associated with that increase in IQ could only be attained by increasing the brain/caloric consumption of a brain, whereas my ancestors were more fit in their environments because they did not need those behaviors which required slightly more intelligence, and therefore did not need the additional costs of a larger brain (natural selection is a ruthless economizer) I am not creating a theory of how you are superior to me as an individual. You might well be superior, but ancestry, and even IQ alone, are probably not enough to establish that.

Another potential issue in your argument is the nature of this 'average' IQ. By what means are you finding the average IQ for a nation.

Oh, is this the cultural bias meme?

"This conclusion was endorsed by the APA Task Force’s statement: “Considered as predictors of future performance, the tests do not seem to be biased against African Americans” (Neisser et al., 1996, p. 93)."

From: Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability- that's not the original study, but a quote from the paper itself.

How would the average IQ be found in a multitude of cultures. There is no doubt that issues with translation could make this test less valid.

I get a bit annoyed when people who haven't looked much at all into the research assume that there's never been IQ researches who have attempted to eliminate potential cultural biases in tests... There's been all sorts of attempts, and none have been successful (as far as I know, happy to be proven wrong), important attempts like eliminating the "language" portion (which establishes verbal IQ.) I would agree that the language portion creates a bias, but actually it's been found to be a pretty small bias at that (refer to the above "30 years" paper). Most "environmentalists" do not assert that the tests are strongly biased, but rather that the tests don't capture environmental "disadvantages" or "advantages"- basically, you're disputing stuff even people who strongly disagree with Rushton (one of two of the authors of the aforementioned paper) probably wouldn't disagree with.

Logically, a country like Syria would have a much harder time finding a representative section of their country and sitting them for a standardised IQ test.

Yeah, you're right, testing the people in urban areas would probably bias the tests slightly towards higher IQs... so what? We don't go out of our way to tests Americans who live in "the country"/rural areas, either.

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

(2/2)

The heritability of IQ is rather low at birth but rises as the person ages2. This shows that environment has a much higher role in the transfer of intelligence than genetics does.

Not to to condescend here for the sake of being a dick, but you genuinely do not know what you're talking about.

  1. "individual differences in IQ have a high heritability," (source).
  2. "the American Psychological Association (APA) established an 11-person Task Force (Neisser et al.,1996) to evaluate the book’s conclusions. Based on their review of twin and other kinship studies, the Task Force for the most part agreed with Jensen’s (1969) Harvard Educational Review article and The Bell Curve, that within the White population the heritability of IQ is “around .75”" (same source)
  3. "It is also important to define and interpret heritability correctly. Heritability refers to the genetic contribution to the individual differences (variance) in a particular group, not to the phenotype of a single individual. Heritability is not a constant that holds for all groups or in all environments. A heritability of 1.00 means all the observed differences in that group are due to genetic differences and not at all to their differences in the environment. A heritability of zero (0.00) means the converse. A heritability of 0.50 means the observed variation is equally the result of genetic and of environmental differences. The heritability of height in modern industrial populations, for example, is about 90%, which means that most of the differences in height among the individuals are due to their genetic differences." (same source)

To claim that a country is a lost cause due to their low IQ is simply a conclusion drawn to reinforce your feelings of racial superiority.

  1. I did not start off as a "racist" when I started looking into these facts, nor do I consider myself one now (but I'm willing to consider the possibility of innate differences between races in IQ, some call this keeping an open mind to empirical reality, propagandists might call it thought crime or more realistically "racism.") To claim that I am a Neo-Nazi for my belief it's quite possible that Jews and Asians innately have higher IQs than my own ethnic group hardly reinforces the claim that my willingness to accept or at least consider these ideas stems from racial hatred; to be fair, the scientific theory of hereditarianism lends itself far more towards racism than environmentalism does, however, there are still "white separatist" racists who do not assert their own superiority- "genetic superiority" is not a necessary component of ethnocentrism. If we arbitrarily decided to kill off the "dumbest" or "least superior" races (assuming you assign superiority based on intelligence), whites (including myself) would not be last- not if what I understand about intelligence is correct.
  2. Syria is pretty much a lost cause in the same way that if you could magically turn Europe's culture into that which it had in 1618 it would be in some senses a "lost cause" for the next couple hundred years until ideas of Enlightenment and the like took hold- we would expect religious violence. Now, if we accept hereditarianism, two violent religious societies, the first being "innately" more intelligent, in that case I would wager that society would abandon its religious violence first, but this is basically just saying that firstly Syria is fucked for the forseeable future and secondly if hereditarianism is accurate it's really fucked for the long haul.

Secondly your argument that Craniology is a valid tool to measure intelligence and value to society (as previously, you linked a supposed high intelligence to high societal value) is frankly not made from a scientific standpoint. Craniology is a 'scientific' area that is not respected in the slightest. No current doctor or scientist takes the view that head measurements are a valid form to gauge overall intelligence for a person, let along an entire race of people.

Honestly, your lack of knowledge on this subject and your confidence despite that is bothering me- that's not an argument, but yeah, I'm annoyed at this point. You really don't know what you're talking about. You're still spouting bullshit from Stephen J. Gould which has been thoroughly debunked.

THE NEW YORK TIMES (that far-right racist rag!): "In a 1981 book, “The Mismeasure of Man,” the paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould asserted that Morton, believing that brain size was a measure of intelligence, had subconsciously manipulated the brain volumes of European, Asian and African skulls to favor his bias that Europeans had larger brains and Africans smaller ones... results resolve this historical controversy, demonstrating that Morton did not manipulate his data to support his preconceptions, contra Gould." CONCLUSION? Gould (probably) lied, and the order of highest-lowest IQ (Asian/White/Black) holds for brain size & skull size as well largest-smallest (Asian/White/Black).

"Whole Brain Size and General Mental Ability: A Review".

Also this: "The emergence of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) has made it possible to compare brain sizes of living humans, and in the ongoing hunt for a physical metric of intelligence, several researchers eagerly sought to correlate MRI measures of brain volume with IQ. Ten years ago, a meta-analysis that examined the results from 26 imaging studies concluded that the correlation between IQ and brain volume is consistently in the 0.3-0.4 range."

The reason that this is an entirely dismissed 'scientific' theory is because of the entire lack of consistency in results...

Yeah, you're conflating judging IQ based on jaw width with determining a correlation between IQ and brain size. The former is bullshit, the latter is VERY real (it's not a .99 correlation, but it's a consistent one.)

Thirdly, and more generally, you seem to be arguing that nature is the most important factor in determining the value of a human. By simplifying a persons life to their genetics you ignore their individuality.

Yeah, not really. Two groups of people, ceteris paribus, I prefer the one with higher IQs, that group (ceteris paribus) is more pleasant in every way- wealthier, more open to libertarian ideas at least in economics, less prone to crime, and so on.

The fact of the matter is that the culture of an area has much greater impact than the genetics of any section of people.

This is like saying "environmentalism is the one true theory with regards to the cause of racial gaps in IQ." Could be true, but realistically speaking I find the idea that there's less than a 1% genetic ("inherent") gap in IQ between Asians and whites and whites and blacks and blacks and Asians absurd. I can't really reply to this with rational argumentation as you haven't really made an argument, assertions made without evidence can be discarded without evidence.

Someone born to poverty from moronic parents can rise out of that (provided that the culture in which they live doesn't inhibit them)

Poor blacks born into the U.S.A. can take classes from MIT & Harvard for free at the public library, and learn coding for free and to some extent you can get certified from things like GitHub. The issue is they don't have the ability, or drive to do that, and the question of "why don't they have the ability" well it's either environmental or it isn't, but I think Ben Carson was genetically gifted with a high IQ, I do not think the difference between him and some other random kid on his block was that his environment was just so much better (even though it was still pretty shitty) that he became a neurosurgeon. I'm not buying it. IN FACT, "rags to riches" examples, while completely consistent with hereditarian theories of IQ differences, do not fit will into the environmentalist theory.

To claim that genetics are the sole (or even a majority) of what a person can become denies that person their individuality.

Most inventive philosophers, inventors, and outstanding business moguls had high IQs, very high IQs, not just 110, try closer to 135+. Sure, that IQ wasn't everything, their work ethic was also integral to their success, but basically, with a high IQ life is "yours to lose" whereas a low IQ individual, for him life is "realistically, limited to trade schools and the like."

[–]Dr_JawaKill the boy. Become the man. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

culturally neutral IQ testing

See Raven Progressive Matrices. Pretty much just pattern matching. No language portion and correlates well with IQ.

[–]wrothbardclassy propeller 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

The heritability of IQ is rather low at birth but rises as the person ages. This shows that environment has a much higher role in the transfer of intelligence than genetics does.

I started looking far more like my father as I aged. Does that environment has a much higher role in the 'transfer' of looks?

[–]5aml1Hillary 2k16 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Im not saying that this is applicable to all traits (obviously) but the data that I have linked shows that when a persons brain is developing the impact of environment is much greater than genetics.

[–]wrothbardclassy propeller 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm saying you may be overlooking something in relation to intelligence. If intelligence is dependent on the structure of the brain, then the late-life disparities in intelligence may well be as influenced by inheritance as it is by environment, just like other traits.

[–]S1r4nBow-Tie Wearing Reactionary 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The last time that Craniology was used, was in the justification and classification of the exterminations of undesirables in the holocaust.

https://derpicdn.net/img/view/2013/12/31/510700__safe_solo_oc_meme_image+macro_smile_tongue_open+mouth_mlp_caption.png

[–]of_ice_and_rockthe way all noble souls have recognized each other[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you spend your days looking for news that in your mind serve as proof for your point of view?

No, I just randomly saw this on my front page and had a chuckle.

There's plenty of anti-black, anti-Arab news I could look for, but it's a dead horse.

The claim that this would somehow be inherent to the genetics of the people is nothing more than a childish allegation however.

Why's that? And I wouldn't claim everyone in the Middle East is a problem or that every Muslim is.

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's more to do with the religion and their upbringing than genetics, to claim otherwise is Nazi level bullshit, but ironically, go to any mainstream subreddit or news sites and you aren't even allowed to claim it's Islam because racism. These people are literally taught from birth that women are beneath them and they can do whatever they want and then we act surprised they go around murdering and raping them? They barely have any respect for boys younger than them to top it off as they get targeted too.

The level of debate around this subject is an utter joke and the silencing of the debate only serves to give unwarranted 'credibility' to actual neo-nazi's and so on out there who are looking to take advantage of peoples' panic over the situation.

I have absolutely no problem blaming the left for this particular issue because they have been absolutely been in compliance with letting these fuckers do whatever they want and smearing anybody who disagrees with them.

[–]Psychohorakbrb: roaming in a muddy ditch 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

This issue is similar to any conversations regarding the legalization of Marijuana. One side claims that it is the plant of jesus and the other says that it will get you addicted to Meth and kill you at the age of 23. No nuance, no self-reflection, only circlejerking.

[–]LethnAnarcho-Voluntaryist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep and both sides will try to attack people and censor others when they take a different stance, I will say though, one side tends to do it more often than the other, depending on what the issues are.

[–]compliancekid78stark staring sane 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're wasting your energy.

He's truly incapable of deep abstract thought.

Then again, I guess the only you'll find that out is to engage him . . .

Carry on.

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 5ポイント6ポイント  (12子コメント)

what does this have to do with an-cap?

[–]setthetrapThe IRS crowdfunds with guns 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

there are ancap race realists who prefer anarcho-capitalism before monarcho-fascism and monarcho- fascism before democratic republicanism.

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You got THAT out of "stupid lady hitch-hiking got killed"?

Give me a god damned break.

[–]secretfbiagent 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

I know people don't believe me but I think it's part of a narrative trying to push knee jerk anti-lefism in this sub. /r/anarcho_capitalism is a recruiting ground for alt-right and specifically race-realists and anti-leftists.

Saturday morning of_ice_and_rock made 4 posts within a couple hours: 1, 2, 3, 4

Most of the alt-right guys that post here aren't stupid and are capable of altering their message to appeal to people in this sub.

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

whatever it is, the mods need to prove that a voluntary group can manage itself and start doing their damned jobs by removing this trash

[–]secretfbiagent 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

I actually support the mods hands off policy. Plus at least two of the mods (Z3F and capitalistchemist) appear to be sympathetic to the alt-right. You'll even see of_ice_and_rock trying to call them for a conversation in link 4 for a discussion of NRx vs. alt-right vs. Nietzscheanism.

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

So I can just post pictures of hard core porno here and it'll stay up?

[–]secretfbiagent 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's one of the things that separates this sub from leftist subs. I think that we can handle diverse and subversive thought and opinions.

I'm actually very sympathetic to the information presented by AL3X_j_M. I know that people will believe it. Some will think that that information needs to be acted on. These people will either support policies that I do not support or will leave anarch_capitalism for alt-right, NRX or whatever philosophical moniker is in vogue.

Leftists know this and so they would ban this post as well as AL3X_j_M's posts.

Centralized control is fragile. If we want the most robust community possible we need bottom up individuals controlling the content presented in this sub not top down control.

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's one of the things that separates this sub from leftist subs.

I'm all for free-thought and everything - hell, I'm a god damned Anarcho Capitalist, how could I not be.

It's just this is "Anarcho-Capitalist - the Subreddit", not "let's all talk about ice-rock-dip-shit's racism issues - The Sub-reddit".

[–]of_ice_and_rockthe way all noble souls have recognized each other[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is it voluntary?

[–]EvanGRogersAnarcho-Capitalist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you think blacks are animals, can they ever truly give consent?

[–]AnarchoEpictetuscultured thug 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

hard core porno

it'll stay up?

[–]Maikowski2Right Wing Anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

as long as that porn does not include interracial sex, yes. You can get away with it.

[–]AL3X_j_MNo Gods, No Roads, No Cuckolds 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

This will not convince anyone, because it's only one example. Cucks will say it's anecdotal evidence, and frankly, they're right, this alone isn't an accurate sample size, I don't doubt if you had 400 women try this in Germany (pre-"enrichment") and Turkey, the women in Germany would be much less likely to be raped or murdered, but this case alone basically is pointless, in my view. The woman's death is lamentable and can not, reasonably, be used to bolster any rational position about the likelihood of certain group's proclivities, so to speak.

[–]soskroodBuilding Pylons 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you think the outcome is likely to be the same if she hitchhiked across Europe (very common) or across Canada or the United States? I wouldn't bat an eye if she had tried hitchhiking across one of those areas, the likely hood of death is pretty low.

Through the middle east - the odds have changed significantly. I would say her odds of death are high.

Lets put this in poker terms. Pocket aces win ~80% of the time (heads up). Is her safety pocket aces and she got unlucky? Or is her safety the 2/7 off-suit and survival without harm is the lucky outcome? Or is it somewhere in between?

[–]mrpg_Do mice eat spiders? 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can hardly think of crueler irony.

[–]Maikowski2Right Wing Anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

She could have been anybody, hitchhiking is dangerous, especially for women. And she could have faced same fate in US, or Eastern Europe or Australia. Her views and intentions do not matter much, maybe except that she did it in white bride's dress, which is "look at me, I'm asking for trouble".

[–]jon31494Helicopter rides for refugees 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, you know, this could have been just anywhere and it's, you know, only in the news because it did happen in Turkey. Rayciss scum!

[–]compliancekid78stark staring sane 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It hasn't.

You're not keeping quiet.

[–]jesushatedbacon -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

How is this relevant to this sub?

[–]Maikowski2Right Wing Anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you must be new here...

[–]LOST_TALENiccolò Machiavelli -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I lean towards disbelief. Why would she be murdered?

[–]LookingForMySelfOh boy, I never asked for this. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are making it sound like she decided to be murdered.