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Woman held for Moscow child 'beheading' (bbc.co.uk)

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[–]European UnionMatheM_ 16ポイント17ポイント  (72子コメント)

I think there should be two prison systems. One that actually tries to re-educate criminals so they can return to society. And one for people that the society gave up on, people that are beyond redemption and repair. And this second system would just store people in cost effective way until they die, maybe even encourage them to commit suicide.

Edit: I just want to say that this comment thread is great. Half of the people are hating me because I want to let prisoners commit suicide and the other half hates me because I don't want to execute them.

[–]Flandersmodomario 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Driving people to suicide...
People that in a worst case scenario are innocent or neurologically fucked. In a best case scenario are psychologically/morally fucked.

You know I consider a plan like that morally fucked.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

There was a maybe, did you notice the maybe?

Secondly. many countries currently practice death penalty, how is death penalty more moral than lets say assisted suicide?

Some countries practice life imprisonment already. How is it less moral to suggest that it should be done in more cost effective way and that prisoners should be made aware that there is an easy way out?

The encouragement was meant to be something like "Look prisoner, you are never leaving this place in your life, there is cyanide vial on the pillow, your choice. Don't let the bedbugs bite, I mean really, there are actual bedbugs, this is prison."

[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

how is death penalty more moral than lets say assisted suicide?

Really? I think there's a major difference between legally murdering someone (read: the death penalty) - which is still downright murder by the way, despite that it is 'sanctioned' by the state - and helping someone to die with dignity at his own accord. It's a difference between night and day.

There is nothing moral about offsetting human life as something as mediocre as costs of incarceration, no matter how depraved that person may be in the first place. The same goes for pushing someone towards suicide just to get rid of him, as that would (as you put it) probably amount to a kind of mental torture.

Just lock them up, give them some resources to be happy and guard said criminals for the rest of their lives. That should be enough: there's no need to kill, or to force them to kill themselves.

[–]East Frisia. Aspiring Danskjävelstreamlin3d 22ポイント23ポイント  (16子コメント)

What a thin layer of humanity here.

People with dangerous psychological issues belong (maybe for life) in closed therapy centres.

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Is an ISIS member who raped slave girls and beheaded children someone with a psychological issue? Maybe. But do i care? Do i believe we should invest in his treatment? No. He did it all for pleasure and should now suffer in return. A slave for life in a mine, garbage dump or toxic cleaning. Certainly not a cussioned and expensive care home.

[–]hahainternet [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

A slave for life

So become worse than him to punish him? No thank you.

[–]BulgariaSzkwarek [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You aren't worse. Stop with this bullshit - hurting a child rapist simply isn't as bad as raping a child. Enslaving a mass murder for life isn't as bad as murdering innocent people. Not everyone is equal, enough with this normative crap - not "every life is equaly valluable" - if my sister was kidnapped and forced into sex slave by some men, i would rip their guts from their stomachs if i could and strangle them with it. This wouldn't make me one bit as bad as them, since i'v never hurt an innocent person - i'v hurt those that do that. People have worth based on their innocence or guilt, not on their genes as homo sapies. A human actually can lose his entire worth as a human if he hurts innocents for his own pleasure.

[–]SuckMyHickory 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well yeah. Anyone who could potentially cause harm should never be let out. Peoples lives are more important. Here in the UK we rarely release psychopath child killers.

[–]ScotlandChazmer87 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here in the UK we rarely release psychopath child killers.

We have released a couple though

[–]Anandya 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because 99% of mental health patients are harmless. Now there are two kinds of mental health criminal.

Let's say Person A has a mental illness. He thinks Person B is going to kill him. He believes it whole heartedly so he avoids him daily. Person B is unaware of this and one day accidentally bumps into person A who promptly stabs him. Now Person A THINKS he is acting sensibly. If you were under threat and someone attacked you you would fight back and maybe stab them to death. The actions of person A were logical but the main issue was his mental illness. So here he would be entitled to a psychiatric holding period. Should he prove to be of no further harm, he would get released.

The other type are your serial killers. Something's clearly wrong but they know their actions are bad.

Now the medical psychiatrist's role is to judge the first option to see if he can be safely released. Other examples here are seen in post partum psychosis. Which is quite sad (Mother suffers psychotic break and may kill her child and attempt to kill herself. Sometimes the child dies and the mother who was temporarily insane due to the hormones and stress of child birth survives.) where the insanity is temporary.

Ultimately? You are at greater risk if you are mentally ill than from the mentally ill. We often don't grasp mental illness and it is very easy to simply punch the mentally ill in public rather than go "WOAH! The weirdo has something wrong! Let's take a deep breath".

The few that do go on to kill, often were in care for some other issue.

Added to which? It doesn't help that mental healthcare budgets are often cut meaning that it is harder for us to take care of the mentally ill these days.

[–]FinlandDryish 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone who could potentially cause harm

So, in other words, everyone? Hate to nitpick, but there's probably a better definition out there.

[–]Swedensplergel 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Anyone who could potentially cause harm should never be let out.

That pretty much covers anyone ever. The question is whether they're significantly more likely to do something than the average person.

[–]SuckMyHickory [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

True. That is what I meant though even though it came across as ambiguous.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ -5ポイント-4ポイント  (5子コメント)

What you call humanity is a face we put on to convince other people to cooperate with us. Human capability to cooperate is our strongest survival trait.

Do you know what the real humans are like? We are the species that invented torture, rape, genocide and organized violence. One time in history the most common form of punishment was to drive a spike trough persons anus all the way to their shoulder and leave them to die.

We are species that beheaded people, stoned people, set people on fire and many more. Everyone was accepting it as ordinary and just. We are species that has the mental capacity to distinguish good from evil and we choose evil on purpose.

You say that I have only little humanity in me? Good, humans are appalling. I wish that I could be as little human as possible.

[–]Swedensplergel 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

What you call humanity is a face we put on to convince other people to cooperate with us.

No, most people are actually like that. The only ones who aren't are crazies and people who like to pretend that they're unique, ironically by saying the exact same things as everyone else pretending to be unique.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No, most people are actually like that.

Have you read the news lately? We are willing to visit unspeakable cruelty on each other. Have you heard about the Milgram experiment? Average person would torture other human if he is ordered to do it by an authority. I am average and I assume that you are average too. Which means we would torture our fellow man if a guy in a uniform told us. Where do you take the confidence that you are a good person from? I am not unique I am just like everyone else I am a monster called human.

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes but someone has to give the order. Unless prompted most people would not give such an order. IT takes a few screwed up people that are good speakers to get the rest of us to do depraved shit, but we would never think of doing that shit on our own initiative. That's the difference.

[–]Swedensplergel [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Have you read the news lately? We are willing to visit unspeakable cruelty on each other.

And it's unusual. That's why it's newsworthy.

[–]Bulgariapooooooooooooooo0oop [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Plain old death by firing squad is good enough. But I think death penalty should be reserved for extreme cases, not just murders. For obvious terrorists and sadists - Breivik, Fritzl, the two who hacked to death a soldier in London, etc. People who are beyond re-education.

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Intentionally driving people to suicide for "the greater good" is kind of a psychotic thing to do.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Because executing them or keeping them alive against their will isn't.

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Who said those were the only options? Just let them be in jail/care facility and live out their lives.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Who said that isn't an option?

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because executing them or keeping them alive against their will isn't.

You did.

[–]Glorious Workers' Democracy by Viktorvernazza 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

And that would put us morally above these criminals how?

[–]Eurocobra7 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

By not having decapitated children?

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No we just intentionally drive people to suicide. That's much better! /s

[–]DrYoloSmallCap 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

it would keep us safe from their future endevours. A bullet in the head should would put us on par with them. And then there´s this, where storage could be repelled, death not so much.

[–]Ukrainerandom_racoon 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

We should do that with sense of loss and grief, not moral superiority. There are just cases where our current level of healthcare and reeducation can't help. While it would be good to have those people fixed instead of locking them down.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

I never said It would make us morally superior.

[–]European FederalistxNicolex 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Hence why we shouldn't do it.

[–]ItalyMetecury -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

Collective security is more important than morality.

[–]European FederalistxNicolex 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

Why don't you go ahead and explain how some kind of "two-tier" prison system would make us safer.

Despite the fact that, our prison systems happen to work, probably better than anywhere else in the world.

Why would we be stupid enough to change that?

[–]las0m 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, if these people are never coming out again, rehabilitation is arguably pointless, costly and ultimately futile. For some desperate maniacs, the idea that if they do get caught they will spend their lives in a comfortable apartment talking to friendly therapists, eating well and filing lawsuits demanding newer Playstation games on the tax payers bill, might be enough reason for them to hop on a plane to Scandinavia to commit crimes. I mean, at least if they get busted, it's a cozy life.

I'm not sure that system really benefits anyone except for the maniacs and of course people's sense of moral superiority.

I'm all for the rehabilitative approach for 99% of criminals. Some people do not deserve a second chance.

[–]European FederalistxNicolex -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, if these people are never coming out again, rehabilitation is arguably pointless, costly and ultimately futile.

Tell that to the prison officers who work in those prisons in places like the US who are attacked on a daily basis about that.

I doubt she how it's ever pointless. I also know know many European countries that have prison sentences that mean someone can never get out.

For some desperate maniacs, the idea that if they do get caught they will spend their lives in a comfortable apartment talking to friendly therapists, eating well and filing lawsuits demanding newer Playstation games on the tax payers bill, might be enough reason for them to hop on a plane to Scandinavia to commit crimes. I mean, at least if they get busted, it's a cozy life.

Has that ever even happened? I've my doubts that anyone has ever done that or even considered it.

[–]las0m -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

You doubt that criminals have come to Scandinavia and committed crimes there for which there would have been severe punitive consequences in their home countries? Really? And you're active on a current events news forum? Seriously? Like... really?

[–]European FederalistxNicolex 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, you painted it as people purposely deciding to travel to Scandinavia to commit crimes and enjoy the comfortable prison life.

Not people who moved there and then ended up commit a crime, you're painting it as that was their plan/goal/intention all along.

Yea, I doubt that has ever happened.

[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Whether it has happened aside, I think /u/las0m talked about that example to illustrate that the prison system in Scandinavian countries is pretty good. Moreover: the prison system in the Netherlands is good as well, and can be considered to be very humane (save the EBI in Vught, but that's another story, because of its stricter regime). I have no difficulty with locking someone up for life provided we make the lives of such people meaningful in some way or another. That includes giving them plenty of resources to give them less incentive to attack guards, even if that includes the dreaded Playstation example.

[–]European FederalistxNicolex [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That includes giving them plenty of resources to give them less incentive to attack guards, even if that includes the dreaded Playstation example.

That's what I'm arguing and what he was arguing against? oO

Our prison systems work very well, I don't see any reason to change it.

[–]Omnilatent [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How is the "collective security" endangered by someone who is in prison? This will get her at least a lifetime sentence (25 years). If she is still dangerous then, she will remain in prison, if not, she is a free citizen again.

[–]RomaniaMakavelliRo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Whoever does something like this is not a criminal, its criminal insane and should not be allowed to be free in society. It's not about morality. In my subjective opinion, morality is a weakness when judging this kind of sick people. You cannot judge a sane person and an insane criminal with the same moral values. You cannot have the same approach to a pickpocket and a person who beheads a child and walks around with the head screaming religious slurs.

(This person is sick, and by sick I mean a mental disease. )

[–]thinking of me as Greek exposes your faulty assumption #1mfukar 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think there should be two societies. One that accommodates people like you, one that doesn't.

Would you agree?

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

That is a little extreme and hard to implement. Also societies generally benefit from people having different opinions. To answer your question if the society was to be separated into two or more groups based on peoples ideas (people with similar ideas grouped together) and those groups would be forbidden to interact with each other, I would not violently resist this segregation. Weather I would agree or disagree with it depends on actual implementation.

[–]thinking of me as Greek exposes your faulty assumption #1mfukar [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Thank you for clarifying the bedrock of your opinions.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Tell me would you violently resist that? Would you join a resistance group? Do you think that you would survive your rebellion? Do you believe that your sacrifice would change the outcome of the rebellion?

[–]rvxt [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

no we should have one single world-wide multi-culti melting pot with a single set of laws for all cultures, based on cold rational logic and realpolitik instead of customs and traditions.

NEW WORLD ORDER HERE WE COMMMMME

[–]thinking of me as Greek exposes your faulty assumption #1mfukar [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Bye.

[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. For ages I've been arguing that murder - provided no special circumstances are in place (for example a mother that kills her newborn child to prevent it from being discovered, but even then I'm doubting) - should be punished with life imprisonment without parole by default. Murder is the most malicious singular crime a person can commit to another human being and should be dealt with accordingly.

There should be no reason to rehabilitate a convicted murderer, as the victim itself will not be able to return to society. Call it a modern variant of the old ius talionis, but if someone strikes another down the perpetrator should also be taken out of society for good. In the absence of the death penalty (which I also do not support) life imprisonment without parole would be a fitting substitute.

There is nothing wrong in isolating such people from the rest of society: by partaking in such horrid crimes any person guilty to it will have lost his/her right to be part of society any longer.

[–]OlivierTwist -5ポイント-4ポイント  (12子コメント)

Death penalty.

[–]Russiafelidae_tsk 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Death penalty isn't applied in Russia nowadays, and must not be applied to any women according to the current laws even if we cancel moratorium.

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

At least not officially. The term nowadays is "accident".

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's not like you can just take them into a back room and shoot them. There is going to be abattery of appeals, evidence, psychiaric evaluations etc. that will take years and cost millions for each case. If we're going to let the state kill citizens then we have to be absolutely sure we have exhausted every other avenue in every single case. And even then we will be executing innocent people.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Too much hassle around executions. People are trying to make them humane and painless to the point it looks like ritual sacrifice. Not to mention death row prisoners need special guards and I don't believe that housing them until they run out of appeals is exactly cost efficient.

Average wait time in death row is 15 years. 15 years of appeals, wasting judges and prosecutors time, special security and that entire let's kill the f*cker ceremony isn't cheap either.

[–]United KingdomShadow_on_the_Heath 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Special guards? Also cost is a non argument we are talking justice here.

[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also cost is a non argument we are talking justice here.

Just saying: it has been pretty much proven that executing people is more expensive than locking them up for life. There was research about this in the US, and it turned out that the costs of all the procedures associated with it easily exceeded 1 million per death row inmate.

Although I don't like the cost argument in itself to decide on the value of a human life, or whether 'cost' should allow us to legally murder another where life imprisonment without parole would achieve the same goal, e.g. safeguarding society.

[–]MonacoCitronBleu [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Thinking about the special treatment she would have in a russian women prison: nah. S Death penalty would be so easy.

[–]rvxt [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

maybe even encourage them to commit suicide

While that's slightly over the top for me, I'd agree that we can just throw away people who hurt children.

[–]European UnionMatheM_ [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That is why there is the maybe there. It could take form of giving prisoners choice between life imprisonment and assisted suicide.

[–]rvxt [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

oh okay... i thought you meant a little bit of daily torment + leaving around stuff with sharp edges.

[–]ItalyMetecury -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Have you read my mind or something? I have been arguing for something like this for ages.

[–]SwedentheCroc [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Having a specific facility whos only purpose is to drive mentally ill people to suicide is kind of psychotic. Maybe you need to have yourself checked if that sounds like a fine idea to you.