全 161 件のコメント

[–]SpaceHeederbean apple 10ポイント11ポイント  (14子コメント)

As the part-owner of a LGS that had a pre-release box stolen at our midnight event for Oath, please don't.

[–]spektumbliumRebellll 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

As an impoverished student without any stable income, i will not.

... LGS that had a pre-release box ...

Though i'm curious, what's this?

[–]SpaceHeederbean apple 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

LGS == Local game store. Pre-releases are Magic the Gathering events where new cards get previewed at a special tournament the week before they come out. Somebody stole the equivalent of seven packs of Magic cards.

[–]spektumbliumRebellll 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

LGS == Local game store.

Would not have figured that out for myself.

[–]SpaceHeederbean apple 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Guess it's not as common a phrase as I assumed.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_Queer Anarchist / Post-Structuralist 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you make a delineation between independent "local" businesses and major corporations such as WalMart or Target?

[–]SpaceHeederbean apple 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't trust the average shoplifter to do so, so I can't in good conscience encourage it at all.

[–]RexAnglorumSaxonumFlair is oppressive. 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't trust the average shoplifter to do so, so I can't in good conscience encourage it at all.

That's my issue as well. I can't say I support shoplifting but I must say that I feel that stealing from a mom and pop business is more wrong because an individual is victimized rather than a faceless corporation.

[–]UulmsharAnCap 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are corporations not just groups of individuals?

[–]MrHighTolerance3 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well obviously, but they are, just, bad individuals. Their no better than the state.

[–]Rad_q-a-v_Queer Anarchist / Post-Structuralist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

fair enough.

[–]PoliticalPrisonGuardAnarcho-Communist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't shoplift anymore, but I used to do it a lot and I only stole from big chain stores. I didn't steal from local businesses because it feels like I'm stealing from the community in a way. I see shoplifting as taking money out of the pockets of capitalists. The Walmart family won't miss the ~$200 I used to steal from them a year, but a small business owner will.

[–]deparaibaCapitalist 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oy comrade, why are you opposing our progressive wealth redistribution?

[–]theunterrified 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

In principle, I support it, but I feel that it's better when the so-called 'victim' is a corporation, rather than a 'Mom n Pop' store where it will have a potentially stronger negative effect on individuals who I sympathise with more than pity or detest.

[–]TheLateThagSimmonsMutualGeoSyndicalist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. Theft is a gray area moral concept. Is it wrong? Usually, but not always. Only heartless monsters have a problem with starving people stealing food. Most anyone on Earth can come up with some personal justification for why they feel their theft was justified. Just look at how many people in the Americas (I'm looking at you propertarian "libertarians" and AnCaps) justify the theft of land from the Natives; they spin endless webs of terrible logic to justify outright theft, then ironically (hypocritically?) claim to "oppose theft and violence".


When it comes to shoplifting: Is it wrong to steal known already stolen goods from a known thief?

There's a difference between stealing from a mom-and-pop shop and stealing from a corporation. The latter was stolen goods to begin with. The mom-and-pop shop, less likely.

[–]TotesMessenger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]insurgentclassCommunist 6ポイント7ポイント  (22子コメント)

Do whatever you need to do to survive. There was a large period of my life where I wouldn't of been able to eat or cloth myself if it wasn't for shoplifting. I don't do it anymore because I have a job and regular income and don't want to risk getting caught but I'd never discourage somebody else from doing it.

[–]deparaibaCapitalist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just one last thing,

Do you really think a communist society would accept you with open arms? Seems like you lack a lot of self awareness.

Turns out they need the business owners and entrepreneurs to run the production, whilst the "needy" people have to go to labor camps to pull their own weight.

Cuba rounds up thousands of homeless and puts them in labor camps every now and then.

As Yuri Bezmenov pointed out, after a communist subversion/revolution the first ones to be executed/suppressed were the edgy little guys.

Communists can't afford free riders and edgy people. They rely on a monolithic non-edgy population. Wiping out the "edgies" is what communists are notorious for.

[–]MrHighTolerance3 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you actually comparing Cuba to communism?

Well there's the reason you're a capitalist.

[–][削除されました]  (19子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]insurgentclassCommunist 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

    I'm not particularly interested in the opinion of somebody on the internet I've never met. I'm more interested in my ability to feed and cloth myself than seem 'morally correct' in the eyes of some capitalist on Reddit. Sorry not sorry.

    [–][削除されました]  (16子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]Frankie_Fiver[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

      Comment removed for being personally attacking.

      [–]deparaibaCapitalist 7ポイント8ポイント  (14子コメント)

      Where are the comments being removed for crime apologism?

      [–]deathpigeonxI Have Based My Affair On Nothing 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Why would we remove comments for that reason?

      [–]Drunk_King_RobertAm I a filthy commie or anarchist? WHO KNOWS[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

      Because the state isn't a good measure for what should or shouldn't be legal because the state isn't inherently ethical.

      [–]deparaibaCapitalist 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Except people agree that theft is immoral even without a state.

      Edgy anarchists and communists are even a worst measure for what should be legal and illegal than a corrupt state.

      [–]Drunk_King_RobertAm I a filthy commie or anarchist? WHO KNOWS[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Well depending on the product chances are it was already stolen.

      [–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]Frankie_Fiver 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Declaring something as criminal, alone, isn't likely to hold any argumentative weight for anarchists.

        [–]Frankie_Fiver[M] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Comment removed for being personally attacking.

        [–]Rad_q-a-v_Queer Anarchist / Post-Structuralist 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

        I'm cool with what I call "ethical shoplifting".

        I'd theoretically, hypothetically, etc.. steal things from Major corporations. It's (theoretically) absurdly easy and I see it as being fairly victimless.

        though, tangentially related, if you are in the US and walk out on your server you're a terrible person and should be put to the wall. Just sayin'.

        [–]RyonneAnarcho-Capitalist 15ポイント16ポイント  (10子コメント)

        So storeowners working for major corporations don't deserve money for their product simply because they work for a major corporation? For that matter, what entitles you to that product such that you feel you deserve it more than that storeowner deserves to feed his family? Is stealing someone's property really a victimless crime?

        [–]MrHighTolerance3 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Knowing what's behind this comment, I feel compelled to say that..

        Preventing people from owning private property is indeed a victimless crime. Claiming you own the means of production is theft. On the other hand, stealing personal property is theft because the person who owns this property isn't exploiting others.

        [–]timmy12688 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Claiming you own the means of production is theft.

        Could you elaborate on this please?

        [–]MrHighTolerance3 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Owning a factory. Any private property for that matter. If you can't personally use the property, you shouldn't be able to own it since the only reason you would is to exploit those who depend on that factor, land, etc.

        [–]timmy12688 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

        So I personally own a duplex right now. I rent it out to a tenant who pays more than the mortgage I pay the bank so he can live there, in my property instead of me. Am I exploiting him?

        (btw I upvoted you for answering my question).

        [–]MrHighTolerance3 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Rent is theft. So yes, you are. You bought a duplex so that you could extract money from those that needed a place to live.

        [–]timmy12688 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Do you ever purchase anything? Like a car? Or how about a computer? When you buy something is that theft? I am providing a product and my tenant buys it every month. How is this "theft?" It is a voluntary transaction. My tenant found my place, liked it so much that they were willing to move out of their mother's house, where he was living for free and then pay me every month for the property I provide for him.

        But the thing is I am taking all the risks here. My tenant is not. My roof needed replaced shorty after I bought the house. It took $12,000 to replace the entire roof. The furnace on one side broke and needed replaced. It cost $5,300 to replace. I am adding a fence to one of the sides because the other side had one. I am doing this because I would like to allow my tenants to have dogs and a fenced backyard is better for them. It will cost ~$3,000. I also replaced the electric stove with a gas range for $200 more and another $90 for installing the gas line because gas ranges cook better and save on electricity. And god forbid the tenant ever decides to break their lease like my last one did because they wanted to go back to college to finish their masters. Regardless if someone lives there I am on the hook for that mortgage bill, every month.

        I think that you are actually saying is "profit" is theft. And considering all of the stuff I just told you about, I have yet to profit. It will take years before that happens. Not that it matters anyway since no force is being used in any circumstance.

        [–]Savage57 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Does a tenant really have a choice though? If they didn't rent from you, they'd probably have to rent from someone else, or go deep into debt to purchase a property and then they'd be essentially renting from a bank, and when the real estate market collapses they'd lose their equity to the bank. Isn't being given a choice between being exploited and starving (or in this case being homeless) coercive?

        [–]MrHighTolerance3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You aren't providing a product. You are using the state to enforce your property claim that you use to your exploit those that need somewhere to live. This is nowhere even remotely close to be buying a car from someone.

        You are exploiting others and that's wrong.

        [–]Savage57 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Can a person who works for a major corporation call him or herself a store owner? Do they keep all of the money that they make or are they compelled to render most of it up to the corporation that holds the deed to their store, their product and all of their equipment?

        [–]TheLateThagSimmonsMutualGeoSyndicalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Is it wrong to steal known stolen good from a known thief?

        [–]RexAnglorumSaxonumFlair is oppressive. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        though, tangentially related, if you are in the US and walk out on your server you're a terrible person and should be put to the wall.

        The wall is too good for dine-n-dashers. The helicopter it must be!

        [–]nildicitAnarcho-Transhumanist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I don't think anyone would publicly advocate illegalism; but I do think most people see the appeal.

        [–]bigblindmax 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Eh, do it if you want to. I'm about as subtle as a brick to the head, so I'll pass.

        [–]EHW1Shmeh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well only if I can do it and nobody else can

        [–]Rothbards_Bowtie 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Well since theft is a violation of the NAP I'm sure most Anarchists are against it.

        [–]rustylanternAnarchist | Secular Buddhist 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        It depends on whose lives are affected by my actions. If this were a store run by wealthy capitalists then I would have no inhibitions. I would, like u/cactusdesneiges said: "Fuck profits, steal stuff if you need to."

        However, I currently live in a small village in northeastern Thailand, near the Lao border. If I were to steal from one of the local, family-run storefronts (individual dwellings that double as variety stores during the day) I would be doing nothing but making an entire family's life more difficult. Someone who is already doing all they can to put food on the table for a large extended family while being fucked by an unelected, authoritarian, military junta government all the while.

        Since it's such a long journey to the nearest town with a bank, I only visit it once or twice a month and sometimes I run out of money before I am able to make it back and take out more. When this occurs (which has only been a couple of times) shop owners let me keep an inventory of things consumed in my notebook. I tally up the price a few days later, after I've made my round-trip from the bank, and pay them back exactly what I owe.

        Sorry. This wasn't intended to be a humble-brag about my life in SE Asia. But, since living here I've become connected to a highly communal society that at one point, before becoming totally indebted to the Thai state, must have been quite a thing to behold and I think the people are doing a good job -- well -- the best job they can, considering the current economic system, to keep this lifestyle intact.

        [–]HeyHeather [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        The only reason there is a store to steal from is profits.

        [–]cactusdesneigesI'm drunk 4ポイント5ポイント  (61子コメント)

        Fuck profits, steal stuff if you need to.

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 9ポイント10ポイント  (60子コメント)

        Or if you want to, I don't give a fuck

        [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (26子コメント)

        OK...let me just take a bunch of shit from your co-op.

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 5ポイント6ポイント  (25子コメント)

        Stealing free shit, now there's an idea!

        [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 7ポイント8ポイント  (24子コメント)

        You are delusional to believe that people are just going to go through all that work just to give it away.

        Would you be totally fine if I come to your community and just take shit that is meant for other members? I just go around and take whatever the fuck with nothing in return.

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 1ポイント2ポイント  (21子コメント)

        It seems as though you're unfamiliar with communism.

        [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 5ポイント6ポイント  (20子コメント)

        I didn't know that anarchism = communism. That is news to me.

        [–]Cuddly_Wumpums(づ ̄ ³ ̄)づ・゜゜・。。・゜゜❤ 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

        typically. perhaps you should reconsider that "anarchist" bit in your flair, if this is news to you.

        [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 4ポイント5ポイント  (17子コメント)

        Apparently Proudhon...the first anarchist wasn't an anarchist.

        [–]Cuddly_Wumpums(づ ̄ ³ ̄)づ・゜゜・。。・゜゜❤ 0ポイント1ポイント  (16子コメント)

        yet you've never heard of ancoms, or that anarchism is often interchangeable w/ communism? it's not like the term libertarian socialism is super obvious or anything. i don't think it's unreasonable to believe that if you've heard/read proudhon, that you might be at least superficially aware of kropotkin, bakunin, goldman, mahkno, durruti, etc etc.

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You referred to "my commune" ffs.

        [–]MrHighTolerance3 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Nah. You don't understand what truly motivates people. It isn't profiting (extrinsic motivation); it's doing things you enjoy (intrinsic motivation). You're imagining communists behaving within a capitalist society. That's your issue.

        [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Getting as many resources for myself gives me the opportunity to do what I want...what else would be the point of this post?

        [–]secretlyaplant -3ポイント-2ポイント  (32子コメント)

        Where do you live?

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (31子コメント)

        U.S.

        [–]secretlyaplant 1ポイント2ポイント  (30子コメント)

        Where in the US? I wonder if you'd be mad if someone stole your private property

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 3ポイント4ポイント  (29子コメント)

        Why does where I live matter?

        And I don't own any private property. Personal property, sure, but not private property.

        [–]secretlyaplant 4ポイント5ポイント  (28子コメント)

        Because I want to make it easier for anyone on the internet to find your property and steal it. Since you're advocating for theft after all.

        The distinction between "personal property" and "private property" is entirely arbitrary and capricious.

        [–]Savage57 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Not so. "Private property" in this context refers to the means of production (i.e. factories and attendant machinery, large scale farms and ranches, etc.) , while "personal property" refers to an individual's property (i.e. one's house, car, computer, clothing, etc.)

        The argument can be made that by stealing, one is repatriating wealth that the capitalist has appropriated through exploitation of workers. The capitalist doesn't produce, but rather robs a worker of the surplus value of their labor which could be used for the betterment of the worker/their family/their community and so on. Further, the capitalist also robs society by shifting negative externalities onto it in such a way that there is little hope of reparation, via pollution, shirking workplace safety laws, killing communities by closing factories and moving them to other places, etc.

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Haha k

        Edit: /u/SpaceHeeder, I think we've got somebody advocating doxxing me and stealing my shit. Pretty sure there's a rule against that somewhere. Probably give them one of those "warnings."

        [–]secretlyaplant 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'm not advocating doxxing you. I neither have the time or inclination to surreptitiously take and spread your personal information.

        I'm suggesting that you voluntarily present your home address to the public, so you can have the opportunity to put your money where your pro-theft mouth is.

        Unless you really do think that stealing is bad?

        This whole thread reminds me of Thatcher's refrain "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Quoting Thatcher, that's a bold move.

        [–]Savage57 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (11子コメント)

        Not so. "Private property" in this context refers to the means of production (i.e. factories and attendant machinery, large scale farms and ranches, etc.) , while "personal property" refers to an individual's property (i.e. one's house, car, computer, clothing, etc.)

        The argument can be made that by stealing, one is repatriating wealth that the capitalist has appropriated through exploitation of workers. The capitalist doesn't produce, but rather robs a worker of the surplus value of their labor which could be used for the betterment of the worker/their family/their community and so on. Further, the capitalist also robs society by shifting negative externalities onto it in such a way that there is little hope of reparation, via pollution, shirking workplace safety laws, killing communities by closing factories and moving them to other places, etc.

        [–]secretlyaplant 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

        The distinction between the "means of production" and "other property" was arbitrary in the 19th century, when cottage industry was widespread, and is extremely arbitrary today, since so many people can "produce" digital goods with their home computer or phone.

        The only distinction between theft of a programmer's home computer and theft of a computer from a storefront is scale. That is like saying murder isn't a crime because genocide is so much worse. It's a capricious and arbitrary delineation used exclusively to justify immoral behavior.

        The solution to the negative externalities inherent in modern industrial society is a strong, political- and class-independent rule of law. The solution to pollution or workplace safety violations is criminalizing it, exposing it, and penalizing it.

        The solution to closed factories is for the community to coalesce, buy the factory, and attempt to produce together. I'm not sure why you would consider closing a factory worth penalizing, especially since the communities that would die without the factory only really exist because that factory was built. Many turn of the century towns were created by the construction of those factories in the first place. (Source)

        [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Yeah, why don't the poor just buy the capital? It's so simple!

        [–]Savage57 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        We're not arguing about digital goods; specifically we are arguing about the ethical implications of shoplifting. I'm happy to take up a conversation with you concerning the value and production of digital goods some other time, but specifically I am referring to the means of production for food, clothing, household wares, building materials, tools and whatever else you would care. The distinction for these means of production is not at all arbitrary, considering the substantial material and labor inputs that go into their manufacture. Comparing modern industrialized mass automated production to cottage industry is as invalid as comparing a modern Boeing 737 to the wright brother's airplane.

        Considering the unethical conditions that most of our modern electronic goods supply chain employs (like [worker exploitation](www.cnet.com/news/riots-suicides-and-other-issues-in-foxconns-iphone-factories/), the use of conflict minerals, and unsustainable end-of-life plans for these devices), I think that makes a rather poor counterpoint in an ethical argument. These companies regularly subvert the rule of law in many different countries with bribery and the threat of moving jobs away from communities (like how Boeing threatened Seattle that it would move its factories away unless anti-union legislation was passed or the way that Raytheon keeps threatening Tucson, AZ with a move to Alabama unless they use taxpayer dollars to buy them new facilities). They own the media and, through the politicians, the police, so who is going to stop them?

        Speaking to the factory town phenomena, I will point out that industrialists created factory towns like Pullman, Indiana (source) so that they could own the worker's housing, operate the only store in the town and otherwise wring every hard won dollar that their workers earned back out into their system. Company towns were nightmares for working class families and were a prime example of capitalist exploitation of the working class. Why bother with losing ANY of their value to labor if you could just get it back later through leases and the cost of their daily bread?

        Noam Chomsky actually discussed workers buying the factories when they were set to close. Often, like in the case of Youngstown, Ohio, the company flat out refused to sell it to the workers. There have been some improvements but capitalists and their constant rent-seeking and exploitation of labor always manage to create hardship and rob value from labor.

        [–]Frankie_Fiver[M] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (7子コメント)

        This is essentially a personal attack and is against the rules of the sub. You can make your point without directing it at the particular person you debating with. Future instances of this or uncharitable comments will be removed.

        [–]secretlyaplant 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        My apologies. Is it customary in this sub for me to delete the offending statement?

        Can I also state that being downvoted because people disagree with me (elsewhere, not on thus comment) makes it very hard to argue. I'm limited to one post every seven minutes. It's a little contrary to the aims of a debate subreddit to limit oppositional voices, don't you think?

        [–]Frankie_Fiver 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I don't think its necessary to delete the comment. Just focus on the ideas, rather than the people discussing them, in future.

        I'm not sure where you're coming from, but it may be helpful for you to know that anarchists generally take operational security very seriously. Asking for specific details about their lives on a public forum is definitely a bit snitchy.

        Yes I agree. We also have a rule against downvoting, but it is impossible to enforce. I have added you to the approved submitters list, so you shouldn't be time limited. Please don't make me regret it.

        [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–]SpaceHeederbean apple[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Discussing controversial ideas doesn't violate the rules on the sidebar. Disparaging groups of people does. Post removed.

          [–]VonCrunchhausenLeft-Wing Market Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

          I wouldn't encourage it. It seems like it would hurt the people who work at the store more than the actual owners.

          [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

          How?

          [–]VonCrunchhausenLeft-Wing Market Anarchist 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Well, whoever owns the franchise would just sack the manager in charge of the store if stealing became a problem. Or the manager would sack one of their employees for the same reason. In the end, you still have a big capitalist corporation doing its usual thing while someone is out of a job.

          [–]MakhnoYouDidntPost-structuralist 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

          How would firing an employee address stealing?

          [–]VonCrunchhausenLeft-Wing Market Anarchist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

          It wouldn't, but the owner would probably want to hold someone responsible.

          [–]PoliticalPrisonGuardAnarcho-Communist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yeah I feel you. Not that there's any logic to it, but if you give an owner an excuse to be a dick then they're gonna be a dick.

          [–]VoltairinedeInsurrectionary Anarchist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Shopping lifting is endemic across all stores.

          [–]Frankie_Fiver 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The business term for loss of stock through by theft is "shrinkage" haha

          [–]TheLateThagSimmonsMutualGeoSyndicalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Top-Down business models. The people at the bottom take the hit. Reality is quite contrary to the idea of people at the top taking the risks and therefore deserving of their higher pay grades. They bear strictly the initial financial risk. Everyone else beneath them bears the rest (vast majority) of the actual risk in the business.

          [–]thatnerdykid2Post-Left Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

          I am absolutely, 100% in favor of shoplifting. We communists support the abolition of capital, do we not? Why should I pay for something which was stolen from the workers or the earth? No anarchist should support the corporate premise that we should pay for food, clothing, medicine, or anything. Even socialists should be in favor of shoplifting food.

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

          Someone has to make that shit. You are likely taking their labor value without reciprocity.

          [–]thatnerdykid2Post-Left Anarchist -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

          Labor has no inherent value. It only has value when it is transformed into a commodity

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 8ポイント9ポイント  (11子コメント)

          I didn't know that sex workers or actors or engineers provide no value.

          Edit - how about debating instead of lazy down voting.

          [–]thatnerdykid2Post-Left Anarchist 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Well I'm not really a downvoter but ok. Labor isn't capital and doesn't have any value independent of commodity production.

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Again...how do you explain my examples.

          [–]thatnerdykid2Post-Left Anarchist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Sex doesn't have an inherent value, engineering doesn't havevalue. Planning doesn't have value except when commodified.

          [–]fukthehabs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          And there have to be people willing to pay for it to be commodified. What is the issue here?

          Are you really suggesting that a person hiring a prostitute doesn't value that exchange? It doesnt have to be about money. They're willing to trade their value (time on planet) with the prostitutes value. Who are you to intercede in that relationship? Are you the state?

          [–]Shamalow 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          They provide value but it's not their labor that has some inherent value. It's the result of their labor that have. But if and only if it can satisfy the needs of someone and be brought to this person.

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          They provide value but it's not their labor that has some inherent value. It's the result of their labor that have. But if and only if it can satisfy the needs of someone and be brought to this person.

          What result of an actor or sex worker has inherent value? What tangible result exists?

          I don't believe there is anything called 'inherent value' but we can leave that for another time.

          [–]Kliber 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't think u/thatnerdykid2 would agree to shoplifting entertainment product or to rape (stealing sex worker product). Or I am wrong ? We are talking about necessities are we not ?

          Anyway, how do you value the time of an actor, or a sex worker which couldn't entertain you ?

          [–]Drunk_King_RobertAm I a filthy commie or anarchist? WHO KNOWS[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Sex, entertainment and engineering expertise could be seen as a commodity in of itself.

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

          If we are going to make up our own definitions, debate is meaningless

          [–]Drunk_King_RobertAm I a filthy commie or anarchist? WHO KNOWS[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Pretty sure that most Communist theory covers how things like acting would be compensated.

          [–]majorpaynei86Market Anarchist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Ok forget it....refusing to address points is not conducive to debate.

          [–]fukthehabs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Value is subjective. People value ferrari more than they do an ice cream cone.

          Value only exists if somebody is willing to exchange for it. And may only exist for the purposes of exchange.

          The things you are stealing hold value, or else you wouldn't want to steal it.

          [–]TwoChainsDjango 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Theft is immoral, you are taking something from someone that you have no right to.

          [–]AnarchistYaoGuaiLGBT Anarcho-Pacifist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I am in favor of shoplifting only if it is victimless; for example a large corporation or grocery chain. No one person owns that stuff. If you steal it, the workers will not get treated any differently. Fuck that company because they probably treat their workers like shit. If you are stealing from an individual or a small locally owned store, stop being a dick. Someone personally owns that.

          I don't have the courage to do it, but I wish I did. I've had plenty of opportunity in my work experience. I stole a can of soda once to see what it was like, but that's it.

          [–]fukthehabs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          So reputation and personal morality don't play into your decision at all.

          I think you would be a really trustworthy commune member.

          [–]DeadlyPhantom95Anarcho-Communist 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Five-finger discount

          [–]jon31494Spooky Egoist AnCap 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Double wristed cuffs.

          [–]Drunk_King_RobertAm I a filthy commie or anarchist? WHO KNOWS[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Only if you get caught ;)

          [–]FreddyBananas -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          being an egoist and an ancap is incoherent...

          [–]Woodsie_LordAnti-civ anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I'd steal it if it wasn't for the fact that in the country I was born in, the employees are responsible for all the items in the store. If anything misses during a regular check and the employee cannot prove that the profit damage wasn't caused when the employee was working, the employer can legally demand any lost profits to be repaid (not counting any court fees etc).

          So by shoplifting here, you're actually hurting all the potential comrades who're just trying to get by.

          [–]Frankie_Fiver -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This is a fascinating indicator of the power of big business. It reminds me of reading about how large supermarket chains in Australia have so much market power that they can write into their contracts that the wholesalers will wear the cost of stolen goods that they are retailing.

          [–]PoliticalPrisonGuardAnarcho-Communist -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

          If shoplifting is the only way for you to get access to commodities such as food, water, clothing, medicine, etc., then go ahead and shoplift all you want.

          If you can provide for yourself easily but don't feel like paying for something at a store, go ahead and steal it. I see nothing morally wrong with shoplifting. However, you must be aware that it is actually kind of a big deal if you get caught. I used to shoplift all the time until I got caught stealing a $2 pack of condoms at Walmart. The police didn't get involved, but I had to pay $500 to Walmart for "reparations." I don't shoplift anymore because it's just not worth it.

          [–]Cuddly_Wumpums(づ ̄ ³ ̄)づ・゜゜・。。・゜゜❤ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          it's worth saying to anyone who might hypothetically engage in such an endeavor, that one should absolutely research their local laws as to the level of risk they might be undertaking. it of course depends on where you live, but it can go from class c misdemeanor to a felony very quickly.

          it's also beneficial to know explicitly what retailers (and their employees) can and can't do in such an event in your respective area. hypothetically this could help you fine-tune your approach and provide some safeguards.

          [–]PoliticalPrisonGuardAnarcho-Communist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This is some great advice. I was stopped by the losses guy when I had just walked out of the store. I didn't know it at the time, but once you exit the store (or the stores property) they can't apprehend you or detain you or anything, so I could've just dipped.

          [–]anticapitalist -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Stealing from worker owned co-ops is not okay. "Stealing" from a mugger, capitalist, etc is not really stealing since the owner of such stole it themselves.

          [–]easy2rememberhuhAncap 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

          if you've stolen, is it ok to steal from you?