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[–]EatsPandas 1ポイント2ポイント  (55子コメント)

Its the job of free parents to protect and train their children.

[–]CrossCheckPandaIndependently Libertarianish 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

What if they don't have parents and or they are druggie burn outs, or even worse they pimp their kids out for drug money?

[–]Bing_bot 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well then whoever becomes their legal guardian would be responsible, you know individualism, personal responsibility, communities and families helping each-other. I know its a very unknown concept in this day and age of collectivism and gigantic ruling government, but it does actually exist and has existed for thousands of years that we know of.

As far as if the kids are abused, you'd deal with it in court. Concerned family or friends stepping up and dealing with it. Hopefully without court, hopefully with a mutual agreement with the parents, you don't need courts for everything, personally I think most things can be solved between parties voluntarily and willingly, you just have to care enough and be patient enough.

[–]druuconian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As far as if the kids are abused, you'd deal with it in court.

Are you talking civil court?

And what if the kid's family is complicit in the abuse? Or they just have shitty, negligent parents?

Under current law, statutory rape can be prosecuted even if the parents are OK with it. If we change that, then we give a green light for parents to abuse their kids and/or allow others to abuse their kids.

personally I think most things can be solved between parties voluntarily and willingly, you just have to care enough and be patient enough.

How does that work with statutory rape? "Well, you can't fuck our 12 year old, but as soon as she turns 14 go nuts!"

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

personally I think most things can be solved between parties voluntarily and willingly, you just have to care enough and be patient enough.

I think there has never been a less true statement when concerning the welfare of children and the lack of an impartial third party.

[–]Zifnab25Filthy Statist -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's just the beauty of the free market.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mob justice, best justice.

[–]druuconian 1ポイント2ポイント  (36子コメント)

...and if said free parents think that it's OK to let a 40 year old fuck their 12 year old child, should the state have anything to say about it?

[–]EatsPandas -1ポイント0ポイント  (31子コメント)

Ah yes, the hypothetical argument. Im not going to respond to this, because unicorns might kill me if I do.

[–]druuconian 1ポイント2ポイント  (30子コメント)

Clearly you're not responding to the hypothetical because it reveals the ludicrousness of the "let's let the free market solve statutory rape" position. If you can't grapple with the real-world effects of the policies you're proposing, then I would submit you haven't thought it through.

[–]EatsPandas -1ポイント0ポイント  (21子コメント)

You cant either, hence why you are relying on the gonverning power to do it for you. We can and we will. Families, friends, communities have stopped crimes like that for 1000s of years. Only recently do we think in terms of THE GOVNT HAS TO LEGISLATE IT AWAY!

[–]druuconian 1ポイント2ポイント  (19子コメント)

You cant either, hence why you are relying on the gonverning power to do it for you.

Sure I can. Under current law, we get some excellent outcomes, such as the state stopping a 40 year old from fucking a 12 year old. We also get some not-so-great outcomes, such as a 19 year old getting charged with a crime for fucking his 17 year old girlfriend.

See how that works? It's called intellectual honesty. It's where you acknowledge downsides of the policies you're advocating, instead of pretending that said downsides don't exist.

Families, friends, communities have stopped crimes like that for 1000s of years.

...in many cases by, say, murdering the guy who's fucking his 12 year daughter. Do you want to go back to that?

Even if you think that is a viable solution, what if the guy who's fucking your 12 year old daughter is more of a badass than you? What if he's got more guns and he knows karate?

Seems to me in that case, your kids are only protected to the extent you can secure their protection with your own guns and fists. That may be wonderful if you're an action hero. It's not if you're, say, physically disabled.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

Do I want to go back to that? There would be a lot less of it happening.

What if he's more badass than me? Then I dont have a daughter. See how that works? I take responsibility for my actions. I am not entitled to have children. And when I do, I have a responsibility to protect and train them.

But as you assume, its the govnt job to protect and train.

[–]druuconian 0ポイント1ポイント  (16子コメント)

Do I want to go back to that? There would be a lot less of it happening.

Why would there be less happening? What if the parents are complicit in the abuse of their children--who fixes it then?

What if he's more badass than me? Then I dont have a daughter. See how that works?

No because time travel is not possible. You may not know at the time you have children that 12 years down the line some badass dude might try to abuse them.

And that's a rather terrible outcome you're proposing. Only the most badass people get to reproduce? If you're a scrawny guy, then no kids for you?

And I'm failing to see how such an outcome results in more freedom. Currently, even physically weak people have the ability to have children, and have some measure of assurance that their children can't be abused with impunity.

But as you assume, its the govnt job to protect

Yes, protecting people from being victimized by others is one of the most basic and most legitimate functions of government.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah I see, you are correct. Please continue to vote, you are doing a service to us all.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see there is no getting you to see things from my perspective. I want nothing more than for the free people of a city to be able to protect their own. Right now I cant shoot an invader in my home. I have to call the police. But That is best in your eyes.

[–]druuconian 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Right now I cant shoot an invader in my home. I have to call the police.

That's bullshit. You have every right to shoot a home invader.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Rape is wrong, it's assault. Anyone will agree with that. So this isnt about rape, this is about young people having sex with older people. And I will argue its not your place to decide that. Its the parents.

[–]druuconian 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Rape is wrong, it's assault. Anyone will agree with that. So this isnt about rape, this is about young people having sex with older people.

Young people who, by reason of their age and inexperience, cannot legally consent, for the same reasons they can't legally enter into a mortgage or a car lease. The problem with rape is lack of consent. A 12 year old is too young to truly consent to sex.

And I will argue its not your place to decide that. Its the parents.

So, again, if parents decide it's OK to let a 40 year old fuck their 12 year old, the state should do nothing about that?

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do I want to go back to that? There would be a lot less of it happening.

This isn't true. Friends and family aren't very good investigators.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Families, friends, communities have stopped crimes like that for 1000s of years.

Not effectively or fairly. You must not know much about history...

[–]EatsPandas -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Secondly, the culture would change entirely. We cant assume that our current culture would be the same given new liberties.

[–]druuconian 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

So let me get this straight, we abolish and/or drastically reduce the size of government, and suddenly, magically, no adult ever wants to fuck a child again?

Seems to me you're missing an explanation of how that happens. How are you able to accurately predict how culture would change if you repeal statutory rape laws?

[–]EatsPandas -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Rape is rape man. You do it, you are in trouble. Be it by the governing powers, or by my boot.

Repeal the law, and you will have a massive SHORT TERM increase, until the people figure out how to deal with it AS FREE PEOPLE.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

or by my boot.

Mob justice...really. Does anyone here ever read history?

[–]EatsPandas -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lets try this, lets keep legislating EVERY DAMN THING as see if we are a better people for it.

Oh wait, we are doing that and things are turning to shit. Lets try it another way, but we wont because people like you love the 'safety' of legislation.

[–]druuconian 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

lets keep legislating EVERY DAMN THING

I'm not advocating for EVERY DAMN THING, I'm advocating that we don't repeal statutory rape laws.

We likely agree that there are too many laws and many of them need to be repealed. But these are not among the laws that should be repealed.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We allow doctors to LEGALLY terminate a young life, even partially born here in the US. Why now worry about the life of a young girl or boy who just wants to mate with an adult.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

even partially born here in the US

Only when the mothers life is in danger...

[–]trytoinjurememoral truth doesn't exist -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Without being able to prove damages, I'd say no. Then again, I see little reason why 12 year olds aren't competent enough to decide for themselves if they're comfortable being with a 40 year old. So I would defer to the wishes of the 12 year old most likely. But regardless, I do recognize that there exists an age (less than 12 imo) when children would need to defer to parental discretion. In which case, there would need to be proof of something being damaging, or having an overwhelming probability of being damaging in the future [adult life]. And purely using stats, it's hard to prove that all instances of sexual activity are psychologically symptomatic since studies show between 15% and 49% adults aren't symptomatic after sexual encounters with adults as children. Though there really needs to be more studies.

[–]druuconian 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Without being able to prove damages, I'd say no.

There's tons of research on the damage caused by childhood sexual trauma. In many cases that damage doesn't manifest for years after the fact, meaning that proving specific harm to the child within the statute of limitations for a crime could be pretty much impossible.

Then again, I see little reason why 12 year olds aren't competent enough to decide for themselves if they're comfortable being with a 40 year old.

Really? Have you been around a lot of 12 year olds? They will eat nothing but candy and pizza if left to their own devices. They will stay up too late and play video games all day and never go to school. 12 year olds are not known for their ability to make good life choices. Which is obviously because they lack maturity, wisdom, experience, fully formed brains, etc.

There is also tremendous potential for manipulation and abuse when you're talking about an adult and a child. Finding a true, free, knowing, voluntary consent in such a situation is extraordinarily unlikely.

But regardless, I do recognize that there exists an age (less than 12 imo) when children would need to defer to parental discretion

OK, so if a parent, in his discretion, thinks its OK to let a 40 year old fuck his 8 year old, is that OK, so long as the parent signs off?

In which case, there would need to be proof of something being damaging, or having an overwhelming probability of being damaging in the future [adult life].

There is absolutely proof of such an overwhelming possibility when you're talking about childhood sexual abuse.

studies show between 15% and 49% adults aren't symptomatic after sexual encounters with adults as children.

Please do tell. The fact that somebody isn't symptomatic at the time of a study 20 years after they were abused does not mean that the abuse was OK. Psychological conditions are not constantly symptomatic.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do recognize that there exists an age (less than 12 imo)

Res labeling you as someone who believes it's ok to fuck a 13 year old.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yeah, it's the job of the parents to protect and train them. There are still police to arrest people for depraved and harmful actions after the fact, though. That is, unless you're an anarchist who literally believes nothing should be illegal.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Authoritarianism --------------{}---- Anrachy Liberty for all, not Liberty for some.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but Libertarian is not synonymous with "no laws".

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ok.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, what "freedom for all" are you advocating here? The freedom to fuck children? You've essentially said that it's ok to fuck a child if his or her parents didn't do a good enough job protecting them, and you tricked the kid into thinking they want it.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I do not think that. So there has been some communication issues. Repealing a law, does not mean the morality of a situation changes, or that people will just let it happen.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

So as long as the parents are okay with you fucking the kid, it's okay to fuck the kid.

edit: Let's kick it up a notch to the worst crime -- murder. It's not okay to murder a kid just because the parents are okay with it, even if there wasn't a statutory law against murder. We have a law against murder because every person is entitled to their own life and body, as it is their most valuable possession. Similarly, a child is entitled to a sound body and mind that is undamaged by the psychological and physical trauma of sexual abuse, regardless of what the adults around them have to say.

[–]EatsPandas 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Again we are entering hypothetical land. If people want to, they already do. Repealing a law, as well as many other, would enable the PEOPLE to deal with it.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

See my edit for more details about why you're wrong.

Repealing a law, as well as many other, would enable the PEOPLE to deal with it.

No it wouldn't. It would just create a world where might is right.

edit: Also, this is not a "purely hypothetical" argument. There are plenty of real world examples of parents sexually abusing their own children.

[–]Publix_Deli 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Also, saying "I don't deal in hypotheticals" is a cop-out and an admission that you've lost the argument. This entire post is a discussion of hypotheticals, and hypothetical possibilities are extremely important to consider when discussing the proper role of government. Really, they're the most important thing to consider.