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oculus

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The unofficial subreddit of the Oculus Rift!

The Rules of Rift Club

This is a place for friendly VR discussion, please follow these few rules:
  • Read the FAQ.
  • No low effort submissions: memes, gifs, image macros etc.
  • Search before submitting.
  • Don't just post "Imagine this + Rift!".
  • No "Should I buy or wait?" posts.
  • No buying/selling: Use /r/RiftForSale.

Oculus VR official sites

  1. Oculus Website
  2. Oculus Share
  3. Oculus VR Best Practices Guide [.pdf]
  4. Andrew Reisse Memorial Funds

January VR Event Calendar

News / Blogs / Discussion

  1. Road to VR
  2. UploadVR
  3. Meant To Be Seen 3D
  4. Rev VR Podcast
  5. EnterVR.net
  6. Bloculus.de
  7. VR Pill
  8. Enter The Rift.fr
  9. Real o Virtual
  10. VRfocus
  11. We Are VR
  12. Oculusrift-blog
  13. Oculus VR News
  14. Rifty Business
  15. Blogspot - Rifty Business
  16. PodVR
  17. VR Sverige
  18. Virtual Reality Reviewer
  19. Rifting.ru
  20. VirtualRealityForum.de
  21. VRDings.de
  22. vrHunters.pl
  23. The Rift Arcade
  24. VR-China.com
  25. Inner Rift
  26. VRNerds.de
  27. VR-Gamer.de
  28. LHVR Podcast
  29. VR-Gaming
  30. BoredGamer.co.uk
  31. VRCircle
  32. Riftinfo.com
  33. VR Casters
  34. VR Scout
  35. OculusHut
  36. The VR Experts
  37. Uncle Jonny
  38. VR Guru
  39. PureVR
  40. VR/AR Weekly
  41. Cinematic VR blog
  42. VR Dominion
  43. Augmentl.io
  44. VR Potato
  45. VRgamer.no
  46. VR User Forum
  47. VR Bites
  48. VR Discord Channel
  49. #oculus freenode IRC

Youtube Channels

  1. vrgamerdude
  2. VR Gaming Evolved
  3. The UK Rifter
  4. Game Hard 4.0
  5. FitzZZ
  6. ImmersiveGamer83
  7. Pretty Neat VR
  8. Hoopermation

Stereo Injectors

  1. Vireio
  2. vorpX

GUI's and Launchers

  1. Vrui VR Toolkit
  2. IBEX
  3. Deskope
  4. VR Launchpad
  5. Janus VR
  6. REALIS3D .FBX Viewer
  7. Virtual Desktop
  8. RiftCat
  9. SpaceSys

Software / Demos / Guides

  1. STVRE
  2. RiftEnabled
  3. EnterTheRift
  4. Game Grade VR
  5. WeArVR
  6. Bruce's Troubleshooting Guide

Other Useful Links

  1. The Immersive Technology Alliance
  2. Oculus Rift Steam Group
  3. The relevant book list
  4. The relevant movie list
  5. Worldwide Rift Demos Map
  6. Oculus Street View
  7. Donate/request Unity trial codes
  8. Worldwide VR Meetups
  9. Oculus Rift mods
  10. HMD Comparison Chart
  11. The VR Index
  12. Real-time chat: #oculus on Freenode
  13. List of DK2 Compatible Games
  14. Oculus.Today
  15. VR Cover
  16. Oculus Rift Games
  17. VRFavs

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all 179 comments
[–]vestigial 35 points36 points37 points  (5 children)
as directed by Aaron Sorkin.
[–]PodoplataSimon 5 points6 points7 points  (3 children)
"Walk with me..."
[–]bittered 11 points12 points13 points  (1 child)
I lol'd when he said to the cab driver "I have a visual on you".
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
"Look at me, dancing..."
[–]sunderpoint 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
"You are a specter of the gods. . ."
[–]Magikarpeles 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
People should have been handing him pieces of paper to read while he walked
[–]FrostVR 91 points92 points93 points  (4 children)
That might be the most action-packed Palmer interview we've seen so far.
[–]ShankatsuForte 38 points39 points40 points  (2 children)
The walking adds Drama. That's why they always walk around in "House MD"
[–]_kingtut_ 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
If this was a scripted show, it would definitely by written by Aaron Sorkin.
[–]matznerd 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
Glad you enjoyed it! When I saw him, I was like no way, especially because I was streaming to r/oculus people
[–]darkpivot 141 points142 points143 points  (9 children)
Man, Palmer just doesn't stop does he. He just performed a super informative and high quality interview to some guy walking with him down the show floor, seemingly while he's in a bit of a hurry.
[–]pcpoweruser 72 points73 points74 points  (2 children)
while he's in a bit of a hurry
He was actually in a big hurry to catch a plane. Yet, he found the time for yet-another-interview with some random guy.
We and VR industry are very lucky to have him.
[–]Chispy 19 points20 points21 points  (1 child)
Something tells me we're going to look back at these days and appreciate how unique this whole Oculus Reddit thing really was. We'll be the few people who got to witness and be part of the birth of Virtual Reality.
[–]byronotron 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
Not complete transparency, but from a company owned by Facebook, it is amazing how much control they given to Palmer. Someday there will be a Sorkin-esque biopic about this man.
[–]Magikarpeles 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
I think it's no mistake that he ended up being the person to kickstart (hurr hurr) virtual reality as a whole. The passion and drive is palpable.
[–]b1gnickdigger 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
It's really refreshing having a company actually communicate with their customers instead of generic corporate speak.
[–]Logical007 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
I'm sweaty with passion now!
[–]SocraticMethHead 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
The story of the Oculus Rift is the story of one man's hard work, perseverance, vision, determination and sweat.
But mostly his sweat.
[–]volar92 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
He also looks swole as fuck.
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 21 points22 points23 points  (3 children)
Best interview format ever. From now on, all interviews should be conducted this way.
[–]WarthogOsl 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Aaron Sorkin would be proud.
[–]AC3R665 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Brah, how long is Sven Co-op 5.0 taking?
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Not sure, sorry, I'm no longer directly involved. Last I saw they were waiting for a Steamworks issue to be resolved.
[–]Heaney555 62 points63 points64 points  (42 children)
The Tesla analogy is perfect.
Put out a great product that's actually desirable, not shitty (the Rift / Model S), then use the economies of scale from the new industry you've just created and the advancement of technology that comes from that to create something more affordable but still great quality (Rift 2, or maybe 3 / Model 3).
[–]sabrathos 7 points8 points9 points  (13 children)
I wonder if they're going to end up actually doing that, though. I think honestly the Apple one makes more sense to me; release the high quality, high cost model at first, then in the future lower its cost and release a new high quality model.
However, I'm not familiar with manufacturing processes; would it be reasonable to assume the price of creating a CV1 will drop in time? Since there's no profit margin for them to lower, it would have to get cheaper to produce in order to make it cheaper to sell.
[–]Heaney555 13 points14 points15 points  (11 children)
would it be reasonable to assume the price of creating a CV1 will drop in time?
Yes. Absolutely. It's just a matter of scale and lessons learned in efficiency.
Smartphones cost ~$200 to make because each component is used in maybe 50 million units, and have been doing so for 9 years.
The Rift is a 1st ever launch, targeting maybe 1 million sales at most, where nearly all the components are custom made for the first ever time.
[–]sabrathos 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
Great! That makes sense. Then I see no reasons why the iPhone model isn't the perfect one for Oculus to follow.
I figure the Rift is probably good enough as it is that the product will be still be very effective (and popular) as an introduction to VR for the mainstream audience in a couple of years, once computers on average get more powerful. There's no need to put all their resources into trying to make an even better low-cost headset; Oculus can now focus on CV2 as another high-end, boundary-breaking VR experience, and let CV1 become the mass-market one in the future.
Do you agree? Or would you say Oculus should focus their attention on the lower-end market now, making the best low-price headset they can possibly design?
[–]Heaney555 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I think that Oculus should continue with their current model: high end on PC (Rift), low end on mobile (Gear VR).
When these converge, it should be somewhere in the middle.
[–]mrdavester 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I don't think Oculus has any interest in mid range. I would love for some one to step in and make a mid range off the shelf parts headset, however. Not sure what eco system they would tap into.
Seems like we have only high end headsets out there for PC, ..weird. Oh don't poison the well, don't poison the well, screw that...dk2 was awesome lets keep that off the shelf value going. Maybe something will come out of China hehe
[–]neverbetterthanlate 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You might be looking for the Razer HDK. Warning: it is not great, noticeably not as good as a DK2, and iffy software support at the moment. But they are working on it. Lots more info at /r/osvr.
[–]Lucosis 4 points5 points6 points  (6 children)
I've seen people quoting Zuckerburg saying they're aiming for 100k Oculus in the first year. I've never actually seen a source for it, but if that's the case it's obvious they weren't planning on mass adoption for CV1. It amazes me that the community insisted that they were going for a low cost unit while being told otherwise for the past year and a half.
[–]FredzL 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Brendan Iribe said "north of a million" in June 2014 over the life of CV1, so I guess they expect a lot more than 100k units for the first year. Especially since DK1 + DK2 have > 180k units sold.
[–]Simpsoid 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
If there's one thing everyone in the VR space needs tor realise it's that opinions and facts go out of date quite quickly. Iribe saying a million+ a year and a half ago is no longer relevant. I guarante3e they'll just keep producing them and review it every month. After a few iterations they'll have a look at how they're going. If they are still selling strongly they'll keep it up, otherwise they may reduce the cost every so often and keep working on the next version.
if in that time they sell 200K units, it won't phase them. If they sell a million that won't phase them either. They'll just keep selling until it's no longer popular.
I don't think is the end result though. i know the economists and financial people will keep a close eye and review and all of that, they may have an end goal in mind (a million+) but if they sell that in 2 months they'll keep doing it for many more months after that.
I guarantee, like you think, that they'll sell well over 100k in a year. Once real people, and not NDA signees or vested interested parties (not that devs are but a lay-person may get more exposure to a lay-person on the street than a dev that only posts to gamin forums or VR specific sites for example) start putting out info on things like the late show or good morning america the snowball will start rolling and a lot of interest will pick up.
[–]Chuck_Lenorris 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
He says "over the life of CV1". That doesn't mean just 1 year. Just something to keep in mind.
[–]phort99 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
If 100k is the goal, the units they're sending to Kickstarter backers free of charge is roughly 7% of that which is incredible. I'm amazed that they can take such a hard hit financially just for the sake of adoption and community goodwill.
[–]FolkSong 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
It's still a financial drop in the bucket for Facebook.
[–]Kanasuke2 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
but 2 billion for oculus, it's still their second biggest acquisition so far. they won't be in the black on this for a loong time
[–]PepeGambino 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I get what you're saying but the problem is that this isn't apple's model. They are notorious for releasing medium to low quality hardware for high price. Most apple products now are playing catch up but their marketing is so good that they are able to charge a significant premium
[–]CuddleBumpkins 1 point2 points3 points  (19 children)
Idk. I dont know if the price will scale down if there is always a flagship model. I could see more hollowed models perhaps or last gen at a discount, but I dont know if theyll just slash prices unless they feel they need to
[–]forgotmyoldpassword2 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Look at the smartphone market. There are phones for every price point.
[–]homerr 1 point2 points3 points  (8 children)
I think it will be like phones.
[–]bittered 2 points3 points4 points  (7 children)
The iPhone is still like $700+ off-contract.
[–]homerr 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Well I was talking more about a tiered selection of phones will be similar to how hmd's will end up, like how you can buy a cheap $300 android phone or a $700+ iphone or nicer model android. Or you can buy someone's old iphone for cheap too.
[–]daguito81 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Not talking Rift. Talking VR Industry. You create a great product and then with economy of scale and advancement you can target a wider audience with all kinds of devices. You will always have a flagship like the iPhone or Galaxy S which are expensive. But you can also have a lower tiered device sell for less without hurting the industry as general.
[–]Elrox 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You can buy a smartphone for $50 that is better than generation 1 smartphones were.
[–]FolkSong 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
But you can get something for $100 that is better in every way than a gen 1 iPhone.
[–]Holysinz 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Open one up and you will see why. The hardware engineering is amazing and expensive.
[–]neverbetterthanlate 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
The DK2 was $350, using parts mostly not made-to-order. I'd guess that approximately three years from now Oculus will be able to sell their currently $600 HMD for much less, as the costs for production setup should be mostly amortized. Display yields would have come up quite a bit as well.
[–]joemwii 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
We're 4 years passed the iPhone 4s which is an entry level model now. CV1 is the iPhone 4s of 2020.
[–]__despicable 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
As Palmer has also said in the interview, the top tier models will stay at the high price range while offering the cutting-edge, top of the line tech, like the newest iPhones or the Model S, while the lower/cheaper models or brands will fulfill the demand for good-enough but not the very best experiences, like the CV1 will be after several years.
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
If it helps to get people into their software ecosystem it might only make sense to keep hardware as cheap as possible.
[–]CuddleBumpkins 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
Maybe, but if they sell last gen at a bargain and keeping flagship at top dollar, they'll be doing just that: still enticing the entry level/casual users with the affordable devices. They seem so content on keeping a high, enthusiast price point as they want to make it good without sacrifice, not sure how you can walk the price down from there and still commit to keep innovating.
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
That's definitely possible -- I actually misunderstood you when you said "I dont know if theyll just slash prices unless they feel they need to". I thought you were talking about them increasing their profit margin to keep it at the same price.
[–]cparen 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
This. I would have been on the fence with the $600 price tag, save that I've spent the past year and half on and off in the DK2. My preorder went through 10 minutes after they wrnt on sale. That taste of VR really got me on board.
[–]bwilliams18 -3 points-2 points-1 points  (3 children)
Apple launched the iphone at $600 it very quickly came down in price from there.
[–]bittered 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
It's currently $649 for the basic 16GB (non-plus) model...
[–]Fugazification -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
But a 4s with contract was $1.
[–]FolkSong 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That's a subsidy from the service provider, not the actual price of the phone.
[–]SafariMonkey 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
Wouldn't the Roadster be the better analogy? It was first, and it was expensive. The X is more of a normal "flagship model."
[–]Heaney555 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
The Model S is a $80,000 car.
For most people, that's absurdly expensive. Maybe you live in a bubble (no offence).
A mass market car is $20k or $30k. $40k for a high end mass market care.
[–]SafariMonkey 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Oh, of course. I meant relatively speaking. The Roadster was the first commercially available model, in order to show that electric cars can be really good. The model S came later at a significantly lower price, I believe, but with most of the same tech. Now, they're coming in with the E.
And no, I'm not under any delusions regarding the price of the S. I can't even afford the Rift. I just feel that the Roadster is the best point of comparison.
Edit: when I commented it said model X. My problem with that was that the X was a more expensive than the previous model (S), but was being produced alongside it, and hence felt more like an "expensive option" than the Roadster, which was produced to prove that electric cars could be good, and sexy.
[–]matznerd 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I think he meant the roadster
[–]jloome 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The same model worked for digital watches in the seventies. They started at hundreds of dollars and were $20 lcds within a couple of years.
[–]FolkSong 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That was Moore's law though (transistor-based chips get steadily cheaper as technology advances). I don't think the chips are a big part of the cost to produce the Rift.
[–]quantum_bogosity 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The tesla can run on already existing roads. The CV1 needs new roads built especially for it to be of any value.
[–]Heaney555 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
It runs on the same roads, but requires an new chargers, not fuel stations.
Seems like still a great analogy!
[–]vr_ml[S] 23 points24 points25 points  (16 children)
(This is from matznerd's periscope. I just saw it go up on Youtube, while I was looking for Oculus vids)
From the title thought he goes on:
For the average person, not the gaming enthusiast, it's an all-in investment of $1500 going down to $1300. It's just not an appreciable drop.
He also says:
It's not that we decided to prioritize on a different part of the market, we still are doing the same thing, which is trying to bring virtual reality to everybody. But you have to do that at a certain level of quality, and when I started this company, I thought that you could get that level of quality for $300 and a decent computer. As we did more research, as we found out what we were in for, it became clear that the minimum bar of quality that it took to make sure that people didn't get uncomfortable, to make sure that you could induce a state of presence, was higher than what we initially thought. That said, it doesn't mean that we don't want to bring virtual reality to the masses, it's just the first step of bringing high quality virtual reality to the masses.
He also mentions:
We're going to keep working with Samsung on other products in the future.
[–]Palidore 19 points20 points21 points  (12 children)
For the average person, not the gaming enthusiast, it's an all-in investment of $1500 going down to $1300. It's just not an appreciable drop
That's the golden quote right there for people who were heavily put off by the price, or for those who suggested VR would be DOA because of it.
There was definitely sticker shock on my part when I first saw the price tag, but at the end of the day, first generation consumer VR was still going to be enthusiast level if there were any hopes of it releasing this year. Whether it was $1000 all-in, $1300, or $1500 doesn't change that.
[–]TheLordB 2 points3 points4 points  (10 children)
For all the people complaining about the rift's cost in foreign countries is the PC needed to run it similarly more expensive as well?
Not necessarily asking you just curious if most of the whining about cost in foreign countries also has a similar problem.
I'm thinking the people complaining about needing over $1k CAD for the oculus would probably require a $2k-$2.5k PC.
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
Mostly, yes, though the Rift postage cost is unusually high to some countries (USD$132 to Australia), plus in Australia at least you don't need to pay sales tax if you buy something direct from overseas and it's worth less than AU$1000 (about US$700). As far as I know it should save something like US$100 to be able to buy it directly from the US (or China) with slower shipping.
[–]Inner_west 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Apparently Oculus has incorporated local companies in all the pre-order companies, including Australia. So even though the rift is less than $1000AUD, tax is still payable.
The checkout price, before shipping, is $650 which roughly lines up with the tax.
[–]metahivemind 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
$1108 would be reduced down to $850 if Oculus fixed their shipping method to be the same as Amazon.
[–]SvenVikingSven Co-op 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
AU$850 is less than US$600, so even free shipping and no tax wouldn't bring it that low.
[–]gmarcon83 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I can't really talk about other countries, but here in Brazil if a company has good logistics the costs of foreign products can come down significantly.
To put a little perspective in the difference it can make, during the launch of the current generation of consoles, in Brazil the Xbox one was being sold by R$ 2.200 and PS4 was R$ 4.000. Their US prices were $499 for the Xbox and $399 for the playstation.
LG is another company that comes to my mind that also manages to sell some high end monitors here for exactly the same price they ask in US.
Of course those are big corporations with a consolidated market. Oculus in the other hand is a new company in a market that still in his infancy, so there is no way that they could manage that kind of logistics yet, but when they do, it can make a huge difference.
[–]xxTheGoDxx 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
That is just not how you see it if you imagine the people that are right now mostly interested in the Rift compared to Oculus line of speaking. Most people who will or at least planed to buy a Rift were PC gamers. Most of them already had the recommended hardware or were just a 330 Euro GPU away of it.
I personally was also a bit upset about paying over 40 Euro shipping for something they send out from within the EU.
[–]sifnt 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A reasonable build for the required PC should be about $1200-$1500 AUD. Plus a PC can be used for many things so its a much lower risk.
[–]GrumpyOldBrit -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
Yes. Oculus charged something like 27% tax, even though a lot of Euro countries dont have 27% tax they have like 19 or 20. Oculus didn't give a fuck. Also we have that 20% VAT on all electronic parts and some parts just have random numbers added because, well, fuck you.
Like how everyone says AMD is cheaper than Nvidia on price/perf? Not in the UK.
[–]TheLordB 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Interesting. Of course oculus isn't large enough to optimize the import costs. I know playstation and xbox will for some countries do some games with assembly etc. to lower the costs.
Part of me also hopes that as oculus gets to the actual shipment date they will change the price to actual additional cost to send to that country as I imagine the current cost is an estimate, but I kind of doubt that they will bother.
I guess the other thing to keep in mind is warranty will be more expensive for some countries both due to consumer protection laws that may require they offer more of a warranty as well as shipping/support costs for any warranty work. That cost increase isn't necessarily just taxes and shipping for countries. For those costs I would expect them to increase the cost of the PC parts as well.
[–]GAZZY75 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Of course oculus isn't large enough to optimize the import costs.
This is basic import/export 101 surely?
[–]xxTheGoDxx 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I think that statement is just some marketing ploy to react to the higher than expected pricing.
Sorry but the average guy that Palmer is repeatable talking about will not pay 1500 Dollar for VR in 2016. I am sure that Facebook/Oculus would like to have VR that successful but its not realistically going to happen. Why should the average person spend that much on a new tech thing he never really heard about? If its about gaming than that average person could have bought into the very versatile, mature and mainstream appealing gaming market for a long time, starting for as little as 300 Dollar for a console. Is it for other VR experiences? Sorry again, but even if Facebook/Oculus and their partner should manage to for example put up a high quality VR sports PPV offering (which will be hard starting from getting the necessary cameras in bulk, the infrastructure and licensing right down to bandwidth concerns) the average open minded sports fan will not pay 1500 Dollar alone for the device necessary to have access to it. Porn, education,...same problem. Interactive VR movies? Those are just games to most people and even if movie buffs should get interested they will not spend 1500 Dollar for it; heck, most of them didn't even buy a BR-player until they droped below 200 Dollar.
Down the line when the tech matures, gets better as well as becomes more prominent among the general population sure, but in 2016 I generally doubt that many people who either have no gaming interest or didn't care about gaming but want it now in VR will buy an Oculus Rift.
So what about gamers? Well, right about now there are around 30 million PS4 owners , 19 million XBone owner and according to Nvidia around 13.5 million people with Rift capable PC. For the last group, the cost of the PC is not relevant but a 200 Dollar cheaper Rift would have mattered. For the first group of people (PS4) the Rift doesn't matter much because it makes way more sense to just get PSVR if you are interested in virtual reality. For current XBone owner of course the complete price of the Rift + PC could matter more than the headset alone.
What is missing here is on the one side people with multiple system for simplicity sake and of course PC gamer who are currently not have the recommended hardware. Lets ignore the first and talk about the second because that group is actually huge, looking at the numbers from Nvidia, Steam hardware survey and number of Steam subscribers as well as current sales numbers of mutliplatform games and earnings reports from EA and Ubisoft its very likely that there are more PC users with PS4 level hardware than PS4 owner.
And for a lot of those upgrading to the recommended specs of the Rift will not be that expensive. An i5 with above 3ghz and 8GB Ram is pretty much standard among people that buy PC games and getting a GTX 970 for example will only cost you around 300 Dollar; minus what you get for your old card when you sell it. A lot of people will upgrade this year anyway with the availability of Pascal and Polaris that for the first time in ages will significantly raise performance per watt and therefor performance all around. I think for those people the difference will again not be 1300 and 1500 Dollar but 700 and 900 Dollar.
In the end I am not even mad that Facebook/Oculus decided to go with a more high end solution. Convincing people that VR is great and not some plaything for ultra nerds is probably more important than having a big audience in the first year. But this average person vs. gaming enthusiast line of speaking doesn't make that much of sense IMO and its strange that this sub (once again) repeats it over and over again without criticism.
[–]IG-64 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
But you have to do that at a certain level of quality, and when I started this company, I thought that you could get that level of quality for $300 and a decent computer. As we did more research, as we found out what we were in for, it became clear that the minimum bar of quality that it took to make sure that people didn't get uncomfortable, to make sure that you could induce a state of presence, was higher than what we initially thought.
I feel like this is a very important point that he didn't quite get across in his AMA. In the AMA response he talked more about the failure in the messaging than the actual reason for the higher price. The "minimum bar of quality" comment does a good job explaining why the final price is what it is.
This was a great interview and it shows that he's given the subject a lot of thought.
[–]211216819 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
I don't even know how you found it. I made it unlisted and asked /u/matznerd for permission first.
[–]vr_ml[S] 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Sorry. I think youtube has an issue where they briefly put up unlisted videos without flagging them as unlisted. It appeared to me in search results, and didn't have an unlisted marker on the video page when I first watched it.
I've seen this happen before, although at that time, I assumed the video owner uploaded the vid, and afterward made it unlisted. However, going by what you're saying, it sounds like youtube has a problem.
[–]darkwater_ 16 points17 points18 points  (0 children)
Really great and genuine interview whilst in an extreme hurry to catch his ride. I absolutely respect the decision to make sure Gen 1 of VR is about quality and not price.
Step one is to make the masses see VR as a legitimately different and worthwhile experience, not to cut corners so that everyone can afford the first Rift. It sounds like the price they chose is really close to the minimum they could get away with and still deliver us a suitable product.
Great video.
[–]h35grga 15 points16 points17 points  (1 child)
They'd better put a seven minute single shot scene into the movie they make about him. This was hardcore man, what an interview. That building is massive and I can't believe nobody recognizes him. Nobody turns around after passing him with the "Oh my god, that's Palmer Luckey!"
[–]mptpanyAll VR 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
A fair few people did turn around, but Palmer was walking so quickly that by the time they turn around Palmer is already 10m away, so all they can do is turn to their buddies and be like "Holy shit guys I think Palmer Luckey just walked by". :P
[–]OculusAsh 27 points28 points29 points  (1 child)
Palmer, you are a Legend. Thank you OP
[–]VRismyreality 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
He's great. A few days ago people insulted him on /r/oculus, now everyone loves him.
[–]hookeslaw 12 points13 points14 points  (17 children)
Didn't they ship a cheap VR headset? GearVR.
[–]Nukemarine 4 points5 points6 points  (15 children)
You only need an $700 smartphone to run it. Wouldn't call it cheap.
[–]Heaney555 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
Galaxy S6 is $475. Gear VR + Galaxy S6 is less than the price of just a Rift.
[–]Nukemarine 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Good point. As mentioned by another, the live demo units go for even cheaper, around $200 but quality is not guaranteed.
[–]churlishmonk 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
there are waaaaay more casual users with a samsung flagship than $1000 gaming rigs
[–]SocraticMethHead 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I don't see how people don't get that. The Samsung S and Note lines are ridiculously popular. I'd guess they beat out any other Android manufacturer.
[–]metaasmo 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
Obviously a heap of people already have the phone, so for them it's a cheap addon to get VR
[–]Nukemarine -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Then call the CV1 cheap since people that bought a DK1 from the kickstarter gets theirs for free. It kind of ignores some crucial information.
However, yes, there are tens of millions of smartphones out there that can run the GearVR. And yes, if you have the phone it's a really good idea to get the GearVR as it gives a functionality to that phone that is AMAZING. The mobile market will be the first and maybe only VR most get to try for the next year or two. Still, you need the phone.
[–]metaasmo 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
That's not a fair comparison. I have a phone already because... I need a phone. I used it as a phone long before the option of using it for VR came along. If you're buying a phone just for the VR Headset then sure, but u highly doubt many are doing that. Everyone needs a phone
[–]Cachirul0 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
People were expecting an affordable VR accesory hmd for $350 dollars. The GearVR is that but cheaper.
[–]Nukemarine 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Technically, so was the DK2 when it was being produced. I also mention the cost of goggles alone if you have the hardware to run it. However, comparing prices of goggles without screens to goggles with a screen (and much more expensive optics) will usually prompt a "they're not the comparable for x reason" response.
[–]sirleechalot 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Actually, you can get a live demo unit s6 for around 200. Its the same phone minus the cell chip. Works with gearvr
[–]Nukemarine 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'm hesitant to mention or promote that idea as live demo units are a limited market. Currently there's no demand so one can get it for $200. I bought one myself and agree that $300 for that mobile VR experience is not that offputting and far, far superior to whatever Sony HMZ offered just a few year prior.
However, as word gets around and demand increases then the price of these will begin to rise.
[–]hookeslaw 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
As opposed to a $1000 computer? I don't see your point. The main difference is the lack of screens in the GearVR.
[–]Nukemarine 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Well, dual screens, higher end optics, closed off screens, greater range of physical IPD adjustments, built in audio, built in microphone, positional tracking, etc.
I'll agree the GearVR is a great VR experience. However, it's not fair comparison to the Rift given the platforms needed for both. Do you normally compare smartphones to PCs?
[–]cantquitreddit 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I'll bet there are more of the required smartphones in the market than Rift ready PCs. Plus it's only $100.
[–]Nukemarine 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Very safe bet. There are tens of millions of phones that can be used with the GearVR and thanks to John Carmack, Oculus is seeing a positive return on a venture most at Oculus probably thought was a bad idea at the time.
I agree, the goggles are $100 and if you have a phone it'd be idiotic not to get the GearVR if you can afford it. However, for someone without the phone, the price is higher for the same experience ($575 vs $100).
[–]sunderpoint 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Exactly. You want an affordable VR experience? Have a recent Samsung phone? There you go, $100 instead of $600, or even $1500 if you don't yet have the PC to run it.
The Rift didn't need to be the low end entry-level device, that's the Gear VR. And it's great at what it does.
[–]clevverguy 21 points22 points23 points  (2 children)
He likes us more than the people on the official Oculus forums
[–]TypicalRedditor12345 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
Well, technically he just said we're the biggest community.
[–]ExortTrionis 13 points14 points15 points  (0 children)
Senpai noticed us
[–]jsdeprey 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
This is a pretty awesome interview I must say! I want to call out Palmer Luckey right now and say that next year he should have to do the same interview while taking the same exact path thru CES, but in under 5min! Got to stay in shape :)
[–]Xatom 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
This is probably the best interview Palmer has ever given.
[–]callezetterJohan, VRsverige.se 13 points14 points15 points  (0 children)
Haha, insane interview, but you always get the best out of someone when they move. Brilliant! :)
[–]Metalor 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
Hey, I never realised Palmer was a metal fan. Nice DragonForce shirt!
[–]jorjordandan 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
If you liked that, you might also like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feXgYL0TOvo
[–]VRismyreality 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
That was the best interview I've seen in a long time. Palmer Luckey is such a cool guy in his relaxed cloths, not being stuck up or anything. He's so grounded to earth and real, you can feel his love for virtual reality and videogames.
[–]jorjordandan 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
I'm exhausted just from watching that. Awesome interview though!! That guy is always on!
[–]ManFalcon 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
If they quality is good , if it looks good , then i don't mind paying more. Being a fan of keeping everything streamlined and built in , I really like the headphone idea too. It looks good.
[–]Vantiel 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
When I first saw the pricing I wasn't surprised, although it was a bit higher than what I had for an expected range (between $400-500). So yea I'm completely ok with the higher tag so long as the quality-threshold matches with the price jump --- which is apparently the case.
Anyway it'd be a bad thing if more people bought a cheaper Rift, and then were underwhelmed. If it's out of people's budget, then wait for gen 2 + other competing interest. This is only the beginning of the vr-age, so may as well start the consumer level off with a bang!
Nice interview too. :}
[–]Nukemarine 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Surprisingly good video interview. Sometimes dangerous to people to do this as they're distracted and might give out more information than planned. In addition, it opens it up for more people to attempt this is the future. However, it is good while it lasts.
Questions I'd still like to see answered or addressed
  1. Oculus created two types of commercial headsets, GearVR for mobile and the Rift for personal computers, and consider these as separate markets and not competitive products. What would be the pros and cons of Oculus entering the gaming console market by producing a VR headset for a console other than the PS4 (which already has the PSVR)?
  2. Leaked photos of CV1 mockups from two years ago showed plans for a front mounted camera and possible LIDAR like system. What decisions went into not attaching a front mounted camera into the Rift CV1?
  3. Unlike the DK2, the CV1 Rift has no passthrough USB port. What decisions went into that route and how has that impacted third party manufacturers that utilized that port for such things like the LEAP?
  4. The DK1, DK2 and now CV1 are touted by Oculus as being very good deals being made at or below cost. Combined with the slower production schedule not able to meet demand, that created a black market of sorts for people selling Rifts second hand for two or three times the purchase. Does Oculus see this as a problem and what are some methods they'll use to address it?
  5. With the cancellation of DK2 productions and the CV1 being $600, what does Oculus predict will be the market reaction for used DK2s and no new VR headsets in the $300 to $400 range?
[–]Mekrob 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Leap didn't use the port, they had you plug it directly into the computer.
[–]VRising 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
We need to start archiving some of these moments for when they make the Palmer movie.
[–]netherminde 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
I remember when people were begging for 4k screens and saying they would spend ANY amount of money for the best VR.
[–]bnr32jason 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'd pay $1000 right now and spend another $1000+ on a pair of 980Ti's if they had a dual 4K Rift available. I know I'm in the minority, but I absolutely would.
[–]Fusionpro 5 points6 points7 points  (3 children)
Those camera shots were impressively stable.
[–]zaptrem 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Probably YouTube video stabilization.
[–]Mrdicat 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
You're joking, right? Just the camera's stabilization!
[–]Nukemarine 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Right. YouTube stabilization fucking sucks at the moment and is more distracting than not using it.
Still waiting for phones to start providing orientation data along with the video to help later stabilization or even use in viewing in VR. The effect is quite pleasant to watch.
[–]Jurassic_Rabbit 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I don't know about anyone else, but I think they made the right choice. Even if they made the cheaper version probably about the same people would buy it now and then when they showed it to other's they wouldn't' have been impressed.
[–]Pixelated_Fudge 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
We get it. But the problem is how many are let down and can't buy it.
[–]bnr32jason 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Well, if you can't afford it, that sucks. But I would have been pissed if they released a $400 Rift that was only a little better than Gear VR when they could have released a much better Rift RIGHT NOW for only a couple hundred more. The experience is the number one priority right now, not the price. If Palmer says that the experience would have been greatly degraded, I believe him.
[–]Pixelated_Fudge 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
We believed him but he has been talking to the wrong market the whole time. You missed the whole point. It's like your parents telling you will be going to the amusement park and when the day comes you find out you can't go.
[–]bnr32jason 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If you had your way, it would be like your parents promising to take you to Disneyland, but then they end up taking you to Chuck E Cheese because it's cheaper.
[–]GavinFreud 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Can I say how much respect I have for Palmer? Not only is he actually passionate about the tech he's advocating/pioneering for, but he actually took the time while he was in a hurry to catch a freaking plane to give a very well thought out interview. Hope he never changes.
[–]Jurassic_Rabbit 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Thanks for uploading some great stuff from Palmer as always.
[–]HellsNels 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
The real question: Will Palmer Luckey be subject to Obama's new executive actions on gun(s) control?
[–]FolkSong 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Guns like those should be illegal outside of military and law enforcement.
[–]Mrdicat 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I feel bad for hating on Palmer for a second there! He always seems like the nicest and most down to earth dude, but I got really mad at the price, mostly because of where I live, since that price will definitly go up to like, 2k dollars, but that's not his fault! I don't even think $600 is too expensive, if you compare to the first 3D TVs, or first Full HD TVs, etc! I'm more mad at my country than anything, if I live in the US I probably wouldn't be so mad!
Anyway, I know Palmer doesn't know me and doesn't even know I was mad, and probably doesn't care either, but sorry, Palmer!You seem like an awesome person and I'm excited for the future!
[–]dualcitizen 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'm starting to think that once they tried the Vive, the idea of creating a lower quality headset wasn't very appealing. They probably decided to compete on quality rather than price.
[–]Seanspeed 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
I'd still have been interested in seeing what they could have done for $400.
Yea, it'd still require a higher end PC, but many of us already have one. I did not build my PC purely for VR. I built it for gaming in general and it just so happens to be good enough for the CV1. So for me, $600 is a 50% price increase over the theoretical $400 CV1.
[–]Dhalphir 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
It would have basically just been the devkit 2. He's already said this elsewhere. If you care enough i can try to dig up the source, i think it was his AMA.
[–]koomer 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
You'll use that dream $400 cv1 and you'll be like "this is cool" durring the first week, then after a month you'll be like "meh", then another month later it's collecting dust Unused. It is the headset you could afford but found it not to be that good, it becomes a afterthought as you continue to play your regular games on your monitor. perhaps if the headset was just slightly better you'll use it more often. Oh well, maybe oculus will get it right with cv2.
[–]thecynicalshit -5 points-4 points-3 points  (3 children)
It's funny seeing all the people that were so angry over the original price, then yet when someone suggests what they could have done for $400, the angry downvoters arrive.
I'm in favor of the higher price if it means a better experience, but I am curious as to what the price would be with no earphones/mic.
[–]Dhalphir 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
The headphones aren't an enormous part of the cost according to Palmer.
[–]GrumpyOldBrit comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (1 child)
Considering they said the fabric was one of the most difficult parts of construction and how it takes a LOT longer to manufacture for it, and all the custom parts and fittings to keep it there. That is. Adds nothing to the experience either. Whole thing is overengineered.
[–]koomer 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I know right, dk1 was nice and simple and most of all cheap! Skip the wait and get your dk1 on eBay now for a third of the price. It's simple engineering at its finest.
[–]FolkSong 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
He could have saved 5-10 dollars on a lower quality shirt, but it wouldn't have adequately displayed his guns.
[–]TD-4242 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
And a class act praising the HTC Vive as being top quality VR when matznerd implied Palmer was talking about it when mentioning other VR units that were not as high quality.
[–]Gc13psj -1 points0 points1 point  (7 children)
I hate how the interviewer cut Palmer off when he was saying that he did know there would be a huge amount of preorders, sounded like he was actually going to say something pretty juicy there... and then got cut off :/
[–]palewine 4 points5 points6 points  (6 children)
Yeah the interviewer kept interrupting him! It's both rude and bad interviewing form.
[–]Wyelho 16 points17 points18 points  (4 children)
Well, it's not like /u/matznerd has had special training for interviewing people, he's just a VR fan from this sub hanging out at CES.
[–]palewine 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
Yeah, but I feel like it's just common sense and common courtesy to not interrupt other people.
Ah, social skills... How they are lacking these days...
[–]geeteee 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
"Common courtesy"? C'mon dude - this is a guy who has just live streamed 2+ hours of content constantly asking his Periscope audience what they want to see and running all over the place. It's reasonable for him to be excited and enthusiastic when bumping into someone like Palmer. The "common courtesy" would be for you to say thankyou for his contribution.
[–]Mrdicat 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
It's so much easier when you're typing on a computer than when you're actually trying to interview someone in a short amount of time, get good information and be walking in a hurry, all at the same time!
[–]tinnedwaffles 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Palmer interupts him a few times too? Its called having a conversation lol I'm gonna guess its just because you want max info from Palmer like this is proper interview or something
[–]FolkSong 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I think the interviewer was going a bit over the top trying to be on Palmer's side and not come off as critical. This is totally understandable under the circumstances (basically a fan meeting his idol).
[–]Drcubes 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I think the main problem with Palmers Logic is that Most people have an almost ready PC for the Oculus. If it was $400 it would be a lot cheaper to upgrade a PC. You can get a way better CPU or GPU for an extra $200.
[–]BustNak comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (1 child)
Well it would have been an extra $200 to spend on the high-end PC.
[–]sabrathos 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
I bet you the experience of the higher-cost Rift and lower-cost PC would be vastly more enjoyable than the lower-cost Rift and higher-cost PC scenario.
[–]datums comment score below threshold-12 points-11 points-10 points  (4 children)
I find this argument to be subtly deceptive. Using the cost of a complete setup does make the extra $200 seem less significant, but I'm not about to go buy a Radeon R290, only to discover that it's $200 more than I expected. After all, it is a peripheral. I don't think that there were many people out there that were actually going to buy the Oculus and a brand spanking new PC at the same time, and the people willing to spend the money on such a PC aren't just using it for VR.
It's like arguing that a $20,000 swimming pool is cheap, because the major expense is the house you need to buy to go with it.
[–]nexted 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
It's like arguing that a $20,000 swimming pool is cheap, because the major expense is the house you need to buy to go with it.
It's funny you mention this. I'm actually shopping for a house now, and one of the reasons for a house over a condo is that we want to have a hot tub.
You know what? With houses in the $300-500k range in my area, we're looking to buy a nicer hot tub and spending more for that quality. Why cheap out on it when we're spending so much just for the space to put the damn thing?
Likewise: sure, I already have a nice gaming rig. But you know what? It did cost a lot of money, and I paid that because I want a high end experience. I'd rather spend another $200 for a top notch VR experience as well.
[–]datums 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
My concern is that he is talking about it like the house in an accessory for the hot tub, rather than the other way around.
On another note, i wish I could buy a house in my city for $300k, or even $500k. My parent's house is 1600 square feet, and that's around a million.
[–]Wuzupmyhomiz -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
That's a bad comparison, its not about saying that 200$ isn't an appreciable amount, he's saying that if you're going to do it, you have to do it right to impress.
[–]datums -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
That's not the part of the argument that I feel is disingenuous. I don't give a shit about the price. It costs what it costs. I don't like the way he's framing it as $200 in a $2000 purchase. It's the kind of thing a PR consultant comes up with.
[–]LegendBegins comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (6 children)
I would have preferred this, actually. Not only would it potentially release earlier, but a lower entry cost headset would be good for VR as a whole.
[–]Dhalphir 9 points10 points11 points  (5 children)
They already made the $400 headset it was called the dev kit 2.
[–]LegendBegins 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
It was $350 and not for consumers.
[–]KulfWolf 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
But the quality would be around where they dev kit 2 is still. And I do not agree that it will be good for VR for pushing out a product that's similar to Dk2, because sadly DK2 quality still makes people nausea and uncomfortable(me included).
The screen door effects breaks away the immersion a lot, thus makes it far less appealing. I have not been using my DK2 as often as I should have because of the quality, slight improvement won't make me wanna use it more than I do now honestly, it has to be big jump from dk2.
[–]LegendBegins 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
But not necessarily at this particular level. For example (and what I have the biggest issue with), the fabric. It wasn't necessary, and just drove up the cost, when they are very likely factoring R&D into "selling at cost."
[–]koomer 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
so you wanted oculus to make a more crescent bay like headset with the plastic exterior.
[–]LegendBegins 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Honestly, yes. I hold to the philosophy that a larger adoption rate = faster advances. Of course, Crescent Bay itself was ridiculously expensive (Source: Palmer himself), but you get the idea. Something slightly less advanced, but more affordable to the average consumer.
[–]mrdavester comment score below threshold-10 points-9 points-8 points  (6 children)
I think he is missing the point. It's not about being able to afford a high end pc or not. It's about how much a consumer is willing to spend on THAT kind of peripheral. 400$ is the high end of the ballpark figure that we were promised years ago when we jumped on the VR bandwagon, and there lies the great betrayal. For me, if it's over 500$US then it may as well be $5000, ..not worth it, not buying it.
I'm so glad I got my DK2 when I did, i've been having a blast playing Windlands today with my obsolete video card. DK2 is awesome, all I feel we needed was a little higher res and 360 tracking, and we should have had it a year ago.
[–]Cachirul0 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I am very glad they improved optics and that CV1 has a mechanical IPD. Your idea of an ok product would not have been good imo
[–]mptpanyAll VR 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
I get the feeling you haven't tried anything better than a DK2.
It's true the Rift DK2 is incredible. But it's not like the additional $150 doesn't get you anything - it's a whole different level of experience that is absolutely worth the additional cost. I was telling some friends of mine who were used to the DK2 that the Vive is totally next-level, and they were skeptical, expecting it to be incrementally better. They were wrong. Same goes for CV1.
As a side note, if you think the Rift is a 'peripheral' device in the same category as an Xbox controller or pair of headphones and needs to be priced comparatively, then you're not the target market for the first generation of PC VR. $200 headsets will come in a few years, and then the portion of the market with outdated PCs and limited cash will be able to enter the VR space. Until then, try Gear VR. :)
[–]mrdavester 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Correct, haven't been able to try anything better than dk2. I have no doubt cv1 is awesome and it's worth more than 600$. My dissapointment is that Oculus switched their apparent budget plan and went full premium on the rift. Didn't really feel the wind change til a couple weeks ago.
I paid 1 grand for my monitor years ago, and that's how much cv1 will cost to my door. My next grand will go to a big 4k curved screen...priorities.
Well I hope the cv1 price will drop but probably not til cv2 is announced or vr bombs and they have a fire sale
[–]tipsy3tx -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Theres already a product out there for you. Its called the GearVR :). Sounds like the reason you felt betrayed was because you were expecting a completely different product. The Rift and the Vive are both high-end gaming devices first that appeals to the pc gaming enthusiast crowd, their focus on providing the highest quality experience was the right choice. They obviously have no problems selling units as the Rift is sold out till June.
[–]mrdavester 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I hope it succeeds, but they aren't announcing numbers...we really have no idea.
I'd love a gear vr, not buying an 800$ phone for it tho haha
[–]dragoonjefy comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (0 children)
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