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submitted by RavelsBolero
So, an uncomfortable subject, and I think it is one that will touch on our nation sooner or later, so I believe it's time to have a frank British discussion and look to the nations on the continent and consider what this means for the people of the UK.
And let's try to avoid turning this into a left vs right, pro-immigrant vs anti-immigrant shitshow if possible. As always, politics is not about showing how many tears we can cry when something bad happens, it is about reaching solutions to the problems we face. This is a very emotionally charged issue and everyone's feelings on it are strong whether their opinion goes one way or the other.
Now, as some of you are no doubt aware, there were some sex attacks carried out across Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, and Finland, the perpetrators of which have all been described as north african or arabic, i.e they are muslim immigrants/refugees. Here are some sources, I have tried to avoid the daily mail for those of you who don't like it but you should really just visit r/europe and you will see instantly all the top threads are on this subject:
Now, I want to ask a couple of questions which should hopefully allow us to gain an overview of what people's views on this are:
Firstly, since the German police have been reported as covering up the crimes of immigrants to avoid sparking outrage among the citizens, will the same thing happen in the UK? Is our media machine going to scramble just as hard to avoid the rage of the common people?
Will we see similar attacks here anytime in the future? And what do we do to prevent such an issue?
Slovakia and Hungary, two nations who have been very bold and outspoken in their action against muslim immigrants/refugees, have vowed not to allow the establishment of any muslim communities in their nation, or the granting of asylum to any muslims at all:
is this the right solution? Should we even allow them in? Are we allowing in too many? Are we forever, irreversibly changing our nation's demographic destiny and culture? And what do you think caused this anyway? Is it the taking advantage of a nation where they cannot be deported (because they have no papers or hide, or are granted asylum, or are aware of the political correctness of europe), is it because they follow a religion which represses natural sexual desires? is it because they come from a culture which relegates females to second class citizens?
Needless to say, sex crimes are viewed as some of the most evil crimes it is possible to commit in the western liberal democracies, which might not be the case in north africa and its surrounding areas, which might in part explain it too.
all 118 comments-
[–]Spillage93 [score hidden]  (0 children)
The key part of any solution, for me, lies at the source of the refugee crisis. Germany's decision to admit more than a million refugees in 2015 was admirable and foolhardy in equal measure. Even if they had had a chance of integrating that many people into German society, there was no way they could have continued to accept a similar number year after year.
I think Cologne is probably the first example of what I was worried would happen - if you admit at an unsustainable rate people from societies that have deep problems with sectarianism, misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism, you're going to end up with those problems in your own society. The volume of people arriving makes dealing with these issues almost impossible. For that reason, immigration ought to happen slowly enough for integration to be possible.
But at the same time, the world can't simply turn its back on refugees. Thus, the problems need to be dealt with at source - whether they be war in Syria and Afghanistan, poverty in Kosovo or authoritarianism in Eritrea. At the moment, alas, I see no drive from world leaders to get on top of any of these. Rather than making them an international priority, the world has spent two months sitting on its hands and waiting for the Syria talks to roll around, in the hope that in the meantime their chosen side can gain as much ground as possible. The UN insistence on privatising everything in Kosovo has left a hollowed-out state unable to provide opportunities for its young population. International forces could topple the regime in Eritrea in a matter of weeks.
Eventually - perhaps after another year of the same - the world will have to get serious about the problems we face and the multicultural dream will come crashing down, but I hope that Europe's political mainstream wises up soon. It could yet end up being replaced by something much worse.
[–]ShanghaiNoon [score hidden]  (7 children)
We have quite a lot of Arabs in parts of the UK but it hasn't happened here. I think the UK's policy of accepting refugees from the refugee camps bordering Syria is the most sensible rather than taking them from Calais or elsewhere in Europe.
[–]DavidCamoronTrue Conservative [score hidden]  (6 children)
We have however had massive sex abuse problems in Muslim dominant area like Rotherham.
[–]ShanghaiNoon [score hidden]  (5 children)
By almost exclusively Pakistanis rather than a broad cross section of Muslims in the UK. There were some Sikhs/Indians in these groups as well but there's a clear ethnic correlation there rather than religious one.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (4 children)
It's a cultural thing, definitely. Even if muslims here don't share values of freedom of speech, lgbt rights, or women's rights, they will be acutely aware of the vicious attitude the general public has towards people who commit sex crimes, especially against children. Sex crimes are a huge taboo in the west, and the east generally has very young age of consent laws. KSA for example has no law regarding age of consent/marriage.
[–]ShanghaiNoon [score hidden]  (3 children)
Very few Muslims in the UK or anywhere in Europe for that matter are from KSA so their laws aren't really that relevant. If it's all widely in Muslim culture it doesn't explain why the rape gangs were almost exclusively Pakistani when the majority of Muslims here aren't Pakistani? The non-Muslims involved in these gangs were largely Sikh (who are generally from the Punjab region near Pakistan) or white. This indicates ethnic/geographic correlation. I doubt it's much to do with laws in Pakistan either as their actions would be illegal over there as well. It could be cultural but it'd have to be very specific to Pakistani/Punjabi culture otherwise we'd have seen it from Indian/Bangladeshi Muslims as well (of which there are plenty in the UK). Instead it was almost exclusively confined to Pakistanis.
[–]JayMcGregor [score hidden]  (2 children)
Very few Muslims in the UK or anywhere in Europe for that matter are from KSA so their laws aren't really that relevant.
No, but a lot have their education funded by the Saudis. Remember they refused to take in refugees and instead offered the Germans 200 mosques and schools? Yeah, no thanks lads.
[–]ShanghaiNoon [score hidden]  (1 child)
Saudi funding mosques is a tangential issue, even if they funded 100% of mosques in the UK it doesn't explain the rape thing.
[–]JayMcGregor [score hidden]  (0 children)
Schools are a vital part of a community. If some particular schools are alienating their pupils and teaching them to look down upon the rest of the community, especially homosexuals and women, then this will translate into huge problems when they grow up.
[–]foragingsociety [score hidden]  (5 children)
Norway is giving new migrants classes on socio-sexual norms in their new country. Perhaps that's a start?
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (4 children)
The problem with this approach is that it assumes these men can't think and decide for themselves. I mean, if you've got enough gumption to up sticks and travel across half the world, you are, presumably, sensible enough to know the local social norms are different, and be able to tread carefully as a response?
[–]Korvar [score hidden]  (0 children)
The problem is you don't know what social norms are different until you're told. If you find out they're different when you unknowingly break them, it's a little late.
[–]foragingsociety [score hidden]  (0 children)
I think the question isn't whether or not rape is bad, but whether or not they can expect to be punished for it. And it may also depend on the environment of their new country: if they're staying with other groups of refugees in the same mindset, the new norms may not be as obvious.
[–]Ande2101 [score hidden]  (0 children)
If you're one person surrounded by people who have different culture to yourself, then yeah, you'll want to change to fit in. When there are hundreds or thousands of people like yourself then there is no real need to change. Like British people moving to an area of Spain filled with other British people and never bothering to learn Spanish.
[–]Ordinary650 [score hidden]  (0 children)
I mean, if you've got enough gumption to up sticks and travel across half the world, you are, presumably, sensible enough to know the local social norms are different, and be able to tread carefully as a response?
I don't see how those two things follow at all to be honest, there's no link whatsoever that would indicate that is true.
And on top of that I think you are underestimating the effect of people stating within their own groups when they arrive; if you only spend your time with other people used to the same norms as you, you won't care about the norms of the country you are in because there is absolutely no need to.
[–]GAdvanceLefty Loon [score hidden]  (3 children)
I'm not concerned by the numbers in the UK but by how they are spread out
Ghettoisation reduces the primary interaction of refugees and foreign migrants to those of their own cultural background. That has to stop if you want people to ever integrate
Refugee's need to be given homes across the entire country, not just in a few smaller areas, they need job opportunities where they work in our society not alongside it and they need schools that the primary students are all culturally British
Letting people in with no plan for them is clearly foolish, especially with such large numbers, blanket bans are equally stupid and just ostracise us from the international community whilst pretending our countries haven't been involved in many of the reasons people flee
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (2 children)
Do you think Slovakia and Hungary have been ostracised from the International Community for saying they don't want muslims, saying it openly and unashamedly?
And as for ghettos, we cannot stop them forming. I''ll rephrase what someone else said and just say that we can't stop people moving to gather in communities because it would violate their human rights.
It's natural to want to be with those similar to you, and so they will group up (moving to east london, for example).
And we can't change a lifetime of culture ingrained into people I don't think.
[–]GAdvanceLefty Loon [score hidden]  (1 child)
I think it's severely damaged the reputations of the countries and their leaders because it'll be seen as an attack on Islam not protection of their own culture. I also think it's dangerous to equate the actions of some Muslims with all, it's like comparing American evangelical churches with Quakers, essentially entirely seperate cultures
There are simple solutions to Ghettoisation from those granted refugee status, simply add in additional clauses domestically that they must live in their home given to them for a set amount of time.
I'm not suggesting huge complete change of culture, just enough time spent in their new society to adjust enough to function normally as much as the rest of us do
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
I think it's severely damaged the reputations of the countries and their leaders because it'll be seen as an attack on Islam not protection of their own culture.
if you go to r/europe, the general sentiment is that these are the european nations that actually have the guts to defend their cultures. Most people, from what i can gather of all types of discussion forums on the internet, generally approve of this.
Of course there are the typical leftists who will do any mental gymnastics to avoid a nation protecting its culture. But i agree with you on their reputation losses. By some, it will be seen as bad.
But by many it is seen as a good thing, and it is also the responsibility of national leaders to willingly accept the reputation that comes from their actions, they are both prepared to do this it seems
[–]ChaosOdin [score hidden]  (0 children)
While the German attacks were horrific, it is a continuation of the predatory way men act towards women in the middle east and north Africa. Both these places have recently seen many hundreds of thousands of migrants enter Germany, and they have hardly had any time to acclimatise to the norms of their new society.
In lots of ways the wave of sex offending we have had from muslim migrants is much more worrying than the sex attacks in Germany. There have been convictions now in more than a score of councils, the perpetrators are mostly second or third generation immigrants and the crimes are are linked by horrific and racist attitudes towards white girls and women.
I would say our problems represent the bigger failure to integrate and deal with these medieval attitudes to women, and we need to talk about it way more than we have.
[–]Swalesy6 [score hidden]  (0 children)
The problem is see is that you can't integrate North African or Middle Eastern immigrants without them claiming you're attacking their civil liberties. They need to be forced to go to language lessons, (because they won't go if you just offer them for free) forced to go to citizenship lessons on the law and how to treat women, not allowed to all live in the same areas leading to gated communities and ghettoisation etc etc. It'll never happen because everyone will cry muh human rights.
[–]Jotun90wants to live in a hut in the woods [score hidden]  (4 children)
Firstly, since the German police have been reported as covering up the crimes of immigrants to avoid sparking outrage among the citizens, will the same thing happen in the UK? Is our media machine going to scramble just as hard to avoid the rage of the common people?
It already happened in Rotheram. Even after the police coverup the news insisted on describing the perpetrators as 'asian' despite it clearly being one particular group.
[–]TENRIB [score hidden]  (1 child)
I don't think our papers will cover up any of those types of scandals considering most of it is Murdoch run.
[–]kastenbrust [score hidden]  (0 children)
Murdoch will tow the CBI line especially before the EU referendum, he's said as much.
[–]barneygale [score hidden]  (1 child)
Yeah: men.
Send them back I say!
[–]Uaedaien [score hidden]  (0 children)
OK Andrea Dworkin.
[–]Baelor_the_BlessedLiberal Leftist Scum [score hidden]  (6 children)
I don't think banning Muslim immigration is the right solution to the issue, lack of integration isn't a specific problem to a particular religion, as we see with lack of integration in varying numbers among any immigrant population.
I'd argue that one of the principle reasons why integration doesn't happen is the large immigrant communities that develop. It seems daft that we should expect integration from people who come to this country and wind up living in dense, almost entirely immigrant communities.
In my opinion, the best way to encourage integration would be to better distribute immigrants around the country, and encourage an influx of natives/other immigrant groups into places like Bradford or Rotherham. Integration definitely can and does happen, we've all met integrated immigrants from every stripe of life, it's just a matter of finding the conditions where this is most likely to happen and finding a way to encourage these conditions better.
The question of refugees is a different matter in my opinion. There's an assumption that refugees will (or should) return to their nations once it becomes possible and safe to do so. Expecting integration from temporary residents is a little unreasonable, as there isn't such a thing as 'short-term integration.' I believe if we tackle the issue of immigrant integration and increased crime among immigrants, the issue of refugee crime will itself lessen.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (5 children)
I know a few bangladeshi muslims who like me are just nerds. Their parents however are invariably racist/sexist and distrusting of the native brits.
We can't stop ghettos forming, it is natural to want to live amongst your own, and of course muslims want to, and will feel more comfortable in muslim communities.
This is when we end up with 2 communities in a town living side by side as if they were neighbouring nations who do not interact. This is the reason Slovakia won't allow the formation of a muslim community there.
Clearly we cannot do the same here, and we can't force people to live where we tell them to. We can't stop ghettos without violating human rights
[–]Baelor_the_BlessedLiberal Leftist Scum [score hidden]  (3 children)
Perhaps I'm biased towards immigration because I'm a child of two immigrants, I try not to use anecdotal evidence, but I know plenty of immigrants who aren't invariably racist/sexist or distrusting of native brits.
We cannot force people to live elsewhere, but we can encourage movement through tax incentives, as well as more funding to immigrant areas to make them less crappy, and therefore more attractive to natives.
As for refugees, we can absolutely control where they go if we're giving them homes.
It's natural to want to live amongst your own, what needs to change is the idea that people should be bound together by race or religion, rather than something substantive.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (2 children)
I'm half indian myself, my grandad married an irish woman, and my dad married an english woman.
As someone who is not a religious man at all however, I can confidently say I will never, ever move to an area that is a known high immigrant settlement. Especially because all of the news we see on r/europe does nothing but make me more scared people like this will be walking my streets soon.
I already barely hear english when I walk down the streets of my own town unless the kids are coming home from school (I'm in the south east of england).
What do we do when we start seeing white flight?
I like immigration of qualified people with their own money, good english skills, and talents to offer. I often work with foreigners who come here to contribute to the research output of our institutions, on work scholarships or student ones. I'm fine living amongst these people.
[–]Baelor_the_BlessedLiberal Leftist Scum [score hidden]  (0 children)
My parents are both Pakistani Muslims, though I left the faith quite a long while back.
I can confidently say I wouldn't mind moving to an area with a high immigrant settlement, as long as it's not full of potholes and uncollected bin bags and shit. The ethnic makeup of the area isn't something I really consider. I hear English plenty in the street, albeit a little accented at times, this in the West Midlands, in immigrant rich Wolverhampton and Birmingham.
Better distribution of immigrants would reduce white flight. White flight is one of the factors that has contributed to the formation of dense immigrant ghettos.
Edit:
I like immigration of qualified people with their own money, good english skills, and talents to offer. I often work with foreigners who come here to contribute to the research output of our institutions, on work scholarships or student ones. I'm fine living amongst these people.
I agree with this, and many Muslim immigrants fit this bill, which is one reason why I'd argue that banning Muslim immigration isn't the right solution.
Generally, I support investment into improving qualification, English skills and talents of everyone in the country, be they immigrant or native. (Let's face it, plenty of natives can barely speak the language.)
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (0 children)
I already barely hear english when I walk down the streets of my own town unless the kids are coming home from school (I'm in the south east of england).
Honestly, why do you care? If you're not a part of a conversation why do you need to be able to understand it?
[–]Ande2101 [score hidden]  (0 children)
We can't stop ghettos without violating human rights
Ghettos are usually populated primarily by people on housing benefits. Government can and has used this to completely destroy problem areas in the past.
[–]BristolShambler [score hidden]  (12 children)
I think the issue abut whether to let them in or not is moot, because they're coming here anyway. As long as the conflicts in Libya and Syria are going on, the boats are going to keep coming.
At that point it's either a choice of going the Katie Hopkins route and watching the bodies wash up on Greek holiday beaches, or alternatively trying to manage the situation in a way that will have the lease negative impact. In my mind that would be the Norwegian route of giving them socio-sex education when they arrive, and of having a proper quota system for settling them. Despite the fact that noone actually wants that, it would be the best way of settling them evenly without ghettoised, non-integrated communities. IMHO the reason why we're seeing the huge influxes into tiny communities in Germany is because the rest of Europe are desperate to wash their hands of the situation.
As for the scumbags in Koln, if they've committed crimes then they should be deported, and my understanding is that that is already German policy.
[–]internet_ranger [score hidden]  (0 children)
Lol that's trivial because if they just saw a slideshow saying rape is bad they wouldn't have done it! Rapists know what they are doing is wrong they just don't care, stop apologising for rapists and excusing rape culture.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (6 children)
Germany doesn't deport really. It's a really extreme decision to deport there, and when it's ruled as such it takes ages to happen but more often just doesn't.
Also, socio-sex education, like one other gent in this thread mentioned, assumes that the men can't think for themselves. We educate them and that's it, problem solved? these people don't turn up to english language classes unless forced to, and we somehow think we can change the way of thinking they have about women and sexual issues with a few classes? To change the way they act that is ingrained in their culture? Who says they will care about or agree with our social norms?
[–]BristolShambler [score hidden]  (5 children)
Germany doesn't deport.
Also, socio-sex education, like one other gent in this thread mentioned, assumed that the men can't think for themselves.
Well isn't that the whole basis for the debate? It's a bit rich to suggest that they're all a bunch of rapists because of the culture they were raised in, and then turn round and say that education is pointless because it assumes they can't think for themselves.
Ultimately though, I would say my other point is the more important one. If the huge groups of people are dumped into effective ghettoes together in foreign lands, then it seems to me inevitable that they will never integrate properly.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (4 children)
I agree with your point. But also as another guy commented, you can't stop ghettos forming. For example, it would be considered a gross violation of human rights if the Uk government said "right, east london has enough muslims, no more are allowed to move there."
The simple fact is, we cannot have the control we need to stop these issues from happening, because people are too concerned with defending the rights of the refugees rather than defending our society from the issues they bring with them (well, Slovakia and Hungary are way more concerned with protecting their societies, but there's no chance of the UK following their lead)
[–]DarkL1te [score hidden]  (1 child)
You can certainly work to avoid them though. One of the main reasons for Muslim 'ghettoes' is the fact that most small towns and villages don't have a mosque.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
I don't think it's right to impose on small towns and villages something which would encourage more to flock to there. I personally want to see less religion of all kinds. But there was a small town in germany, or was it sweden, with a few hundred residents, that were set to receive about 700 immigrants.
For a small town that must be a scary prospect. To have a new and foreign culture who you cannot interact with, and instead must live beside as if they were a neighbouring nation, to suddenly appear beside you.
[–]BristolShambler [score hidden]  (1 child)
You can't stop ghettos forming, but you can manage it in a way that reduces their impact. I'm not talking about "you move to Dagenham and you move to Croydon", I'm talking about "this family can settle in Spain and this family can settle in Scotland"
Ultimately, it's well and good saying "we need to defend our society", but the problem won't go away, the refugees won't disappear into thin air. We either try and manage the situation the bes we can Europe-wide, or we watch places on the coast like Italy and Greece face a humanitarian disaster.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
the refugees won't disappear into thin air. We either try and manage the situation the bes we can Europe-wide, or we watch places on the coast like Italy and Greece face a humanitarian disaster.
Very good point, though Hungary has built fences and deployed its military to protect its borders. As an island we are well positioned to do something similar, but public sentiment here, and even those within the government, would not allow it.
I think your idea of settling the families in other places was probably a good suggestion. There is also the issue that all these syrian immigrants will leave syria a desolate wasteland with no doctors or engineers. How can it rebuild when all its citizens have gone to europe?
[–]skeletonxfFreedom [score hidden]  (3 children)
Out of interest why is deportation rather than imprisonment better? Surely if you deport them they can just go carry on back home.
[–]BristolShambler [score hidden]  (2 children)
or imprisonment then deportation upon release.
[–]skeletonxfYet to find a country with Free Speech [score hidden]  (1 child)
Doesn't that defeat the point of serving your time and coming out of jail no longer punished any more? Is deportation to origin country to a prison there not viable? O.o
[–]BristolShambler [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yeh, sure, one of those options. I wasn't trying to suggest a specific justice policy.
[–]JimmyjamjamesI dislike most people [score hidden]  (0 children)
First of all credit to nomad1c for making this important point a thread in world news.
People tend to have this doe-eyed vision of multiculturalism. When they think of multiculturalism they think about exchanging cuisines, languages, music, dancing, fashion etc. Who could be opposed to that? Thing is, there is a lot more to culture than that. It's also how you view the rule of law, about corruption and playing fair, about the value of human life, about the role and status of women in your society, etc. That doesn't just vanish because you happen to move to a very liberal country. What they've effectively done is invited millions of people who would be considered more extreme than the far right by European standards into a very liberal society. Going under the assumption that you can just mix your very liberal culture and another very conservative culture, and still end up keeping your very liberal culture when the immigrants have no desire to properly integrate, is absolute folly
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (15 children)
The problem is, bad cases make for bad laws. We've got 1,000 or so twats running amok in Cologne, alongside incidents elsewhere in Europe, and, assuming they are recent arrivals for the most part, this is controversial, to say the least.
But say they are refugees. How many refugees are there in Cologne? Much more than 1,000, and the vast majority of them aren't out robbing and indecently assaulting people on New Year's Eve.
The other problem is how humans react to events. Specific cases stick in the mind more than general events, so we remember the rapists, but strangely enough, 'Refugee Rapes No One - Stays In And Looks After Kids' doesn't capture the media agenda in the same way that 'Refugee Rapes Woman' does. But which is far more likely to happen on a day-to-day basis?
We need to understand there is a difference between 'Problem Refugees' and 'Refugees Are A Problem'. The Cologne police and sections of the German media fucked this up badly by trying to censoring the events. But using this as a wedge issue to decry refugees in general or to discredit the good Merkel has done is equally perverse.
[–]Ewannnn [score hidden]  (4 children)
As I pointed out elsewhere, rape and sexual assault are common crimes. Rape happens in the UK around 100,000 cases per year and sexual assault is more than this too. This is around 11 times per hour for reference. Yet now all these people are coming out of the woodwork and using a few isolated crimes to justify their racist views. It would be rather funny if it wasn't so tragic how many people fall for it.
[–]Ande2101 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Rape happens in the UK around 100,000 cases per year
There are different types of rape. Comparing consent disputes, which like it or not is what most rapes are, with violent assault by a stranger is like comparing shoplifting with armed robbery.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
What's funny is you think Islam is a race. Tell me, if you import people by the million and they are from places with narrow views on women and homosexuals, do you not think those problems will increase in the nations they are imported to as well?
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (0 children)
What's funny is you think Islam is a race.
There is no agreed upon definition of race.
And even if there was, and your assertion that islam isn't a race is correct, then there's still those that hold a prejudiced view towards them in the same way that racists hold a prejudiced view against what could be considered a race.
Perhaps you should invent a word for it, and mentally substitute the word "racist" in that post.
[–]DavidCamoronTrue Conservative [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yeah, remember when a thousand racist whiteys sexually assaulted people in a single area at once? Nobody cared!
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (9 children)
Well mate, I think people are starting to suggest it is a problem with refugees in general now. This isn't a case of "the minority are creating a bad reputation for the majority".
This is a case of organised sex attacks taking place with hundreds, or thousands of men, all of the same religion and culture, across multiple different countries. We've heard the "it's just a few of them" argument for months now. It's wearing thin, and these events are absolutely damning evidence that it's an argument that no longer holds up to scrutiny.
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (8 children)
Well mate,
I'm not your mate. I do have standards.
I think people are starting to suggest it is a problem with refugees in general.
Then they are wrong.
This isn't a case of "the minority are creating a bad reputation for the majority".
But it is, for reasons already given.
This is a case of organised sex attacks taking place with hundreds, or thousands of men, all of the same religion and culture, across multiple different countries.
Citations?
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (7 children)
All relevant citations are in the OP, or on the front page of r/europe. It's time people like you faced up to the truths we're seeing mate. There are some serious cultural issues that we need to face up to.
We live in western liberal democracies and we have conservative north africans with very different views on women coming here to socities that are much more sexually liberal than their own.
Women are being raped, it's time to let go of the political correctness
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (6 children)
All cherry-picked citations are in the OP
Fixed that for you.
It's time people like you faced up to the truths we're seeing mate.
It's time you learned how to punctuate properly, cheeky-chops.
We live in western liberal democracies and we have conservative north africans with very different views on women coming here to socities that are much more sexually liberal than their own.
And this makes them all automatically insta-rapists?
Women are being raped, it's time to let go of the political correctness
Women get raped with disturbing regularity regardless - you only seem to give a shit when it furthers your own agenda.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (5 children)
And this makes them all automatically insta-rapists?
Have you been following the news? Yes, obviously we're seeing huge problems with sex crimes committed by immigrants.
It's time you learned how to punctuate properly, cheeky-chops.
There was nothing wrong with my punctuation, but try to stay on topic mate, we're discussing political issues here. You seem quite upset by all of this
All cherry-picked citations are in the OP
The sources are fact, unless you would like to present evidence that the crimes in fact did not happen, or that I was wrong in saying Slovakia and Hungary are against muslim immigrants.
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (4 children)
Have you been following the news?
Yes, but I've not been drawing the same self-serving conclusions as you. Funny thing, that.
Yes, obviously we're seeing huge problems with sex crimes committed by immigrants.
Or lots of opportunists using this to make hay for their dodgy political leanings.
There was nothing wrong with my punctuation
You missed a comma.
but try to stay on topic mate
Missed another one.
we're discussing political issues here.
And the poor standard of your schooling.
You seem quite upset by all of this
I'm not the one cherry-picking and begging the question here.
The sources are fact
The Telegraph... Facepalm.
unless you would like to present evidence that the crimes in fact did not happen
And lo, the first strawman of the discussion was deployed...
or that I was wrong in saying Slovakia and Hungary are against muslim immigrants.
Keep taking the tablets.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (3 children)
Yes, but I've not been drawing the same self-serving conclusions as you. Funny thing, that.
You can keep doing all the mental gymnastics you like mate, you can't change the facts of the situation.
And the poor standard of your schooling.
You seem upset. Why are you content to insult me instead of arguing your case, which is what a normal, well educated person would do.
Keep taking the tablets.
Another personal attack, you're really on the defensive here aren't you? You sound like a moderator from r/europe.
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (2 children)
You can keep doing all the mental gymnastics you like mate
I can punctuate too.
you can't cherry-pick the facts of the situation.
FTFY.
You seem upset.
No, just amused and disappointed in equal measure.
Why are you content to insult me instead of arguing your case
I've made my case. I'm just responding to your crappy approach to bad-faith questions and argument.
which is what a normal, well educated person would do.
That's you fucked, then.
Another personal attack, you're really on the defensive here aren't you?
No, having fun.
You sound like a moderator from r/europe.
You sound like the sort of berk who posts up Britain First images on their Facebook page, but hey! No one's perfect.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (12 children)
There seem to be two solutions on offer.
One is to accept lots of refugees.
The other is to close borders and reduce foreign aid.
I'm not especially fond of either. I've long said that we have a clear duty of care to do the best we can for the most good. However I don't accept that it's accepting a small number of refugees relative to the size of the problem, and that's borne out by the disproportionately large number of young men that arrive. The women, elderly and children also matter and are being left behind.
I think that partly stems from the instinctive human reaction that we're far kinder to people we can see than people we cannot, and I think that needs to change. It's a similar reaction to people saying not to 'bomb Syria' because we might kill innocents. If we allow more innocents to die by not bombing Syria then that is a worse option, having proverbial blood on our hands as the reason for inaction is selfish, juvenile and naive.
It's clear from what happened at New Year that the refugees that are already here are going to be more problematic than was previously expected, so in any calculation of how we can do the most good, if it means that a refugee in the UK costs a staggering amount of money to look after then it makes it more attractive to spend the same amount of money making things better in Syria.
We need a radical, comprehensive, and effective policy to fix things in the areas where the refugees are coming from. Pretty much anyone from Syria is a legitimate asylum seeker. That's an entire country full of people who we need to get sorted. Accepting small amounts who make an often lethal journey to the UK is not the right thing to do.
Not only does it spend a large amount of money inefficiently, it helps very few people and actually encourages people to run the gauntlet that sees human traffickers making money (and raping and killing) and people drowning, starving, dying on the way.
So what I'd like to see is the EU come together and say 'Not in my name' and spend a massive amount of money creating infrastructure to allow people to live in a humane way, as close to their homes as possible so they can have as good a quality of live, given the circumstances, as possible. This may mean annexing part of Syria, Libya, or Sudan. It may mean making a deal with Egypt or Turkey. Whatever it is the stakes are so high that it should be done.
[–]0zymandiasssThe return of the Militant [score hidden]  (6 children)
Why would it be necessary to reduce foreign aid if the border were closed? I can't see the connection, in fact if you're not letting people in, then you expect government to increase foreign aid spending to make up for it.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (5 children)
Oh, no connection, and it's not necessary. I just feel like I see both messages coming from the same people.
[–]0zymandiasssThe return of the Militant [score hidden]  (4 children)
Oh I see what you mean.
You're right that the only way to solve this long term is to stabilise Syria, that's where the real refugees are coming from and where the economic migrants are claiming they come from.
So this all comes back to what to do with Syria. I think there are only two ways of stabilising Syria, either we help Assad to regain control or a combined western force invades and holds the country for a generation or 2.
Helping Assad is the quickest and cheapest option available but harder to stomach foe the public, he's not a nice man after all.
Generational occupation would be hideously costly, we're talking trillions over the decades. The most obvious advantage of this is that when it's over Syria will have been full westernised and won't be susceptible to the kind of radicalist forces it is at the moment. The other problem with it is keeping all forces in Syria for the long haul, not bailing out when public pressure gets high.
Personally, I think the time is coming when we will have no choice but to occupy Syria and other states in the middle east. Radical Islam has taken hold, the only way to remove it is to wait who knows how many generations or use force followed by education and cultural conversion. It was done to Germany and Japan post WWII and I think we're going to have to do it again. I don't want to, but I don't think we can wait for radical Islam to die naturally.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (3 children)
Assad is the only option. We have to work out if we can do it in a way where he he has to continually have small reforms so that Syria becomes a better place. What stopped that policy working Libya was that Gadaffi's regime came under threat, so desperate people do desperate things - that and we thought it was a great idea for there to be a revolution. Evolution beats revolution - British history is a great example of that.
We just need to accept that under Assad, when he fully controlled the country things would be better, they'd be fundamentally wrong, but it is not within our power to make things right.
As for occupying the middle east again, we don't have the willpower or might for it. We need to be at the head of a coalition of all of Europe, both Americas and we need assistance from China and India which simply won't come.
[–]0zymandiasssThe return of the Militant [score hidden]  (1 child)
There's no question that Syria pre revolution was a better place. It had a growing middle class, protected minorities, fairly good civil liberties for the region. Given a couple of decades or so and it could have ended up something similar to Turkey.
I think the problem with the Assad solution os that it can't happen until after the next GE. Cameron has over played his hand by shit talking Assad so much. He might be right but he's made it impossible for himself to go back on. He won't be replaced until 2019 when the GE is around the corner and no one is going to side with Assad just before the election when they'll get slaughtered by the press for it. After 2020, maybe. That's still at least 4 more years of this crisis, probably longer, realistically 6-7 more years. What do we do with these people until then?
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (0 children)
The events in Germany have shown us that accepting mass amounts of migrants is not sustainable, and the evolution in events in Syria has meant that regime change is not possible without boots on the ground. I will not take this nation to war if there is a diplomatic solution. And the diplomatic solution is to support the Assad regime in exchange for continuing, extensive, and controlled reforms. By doing this it will have the best outcome, it will reduce the need for mass migration, and will prevent British deaths.
There, I've written his speech :p
[–]whoturgled [score hidden]  (0 children)
Is it even realistic to think Assad will be able to return to rule completely over Syria if the government wins?
Half the country is in rebellion against him, I don't see how he is going to return to rule in those places.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (3 children)
Pretty much anyone from Syria is a legitimate asylum seeker.
Not so fast my friend. Syrian passports are a valuable commodity now, and International Law says refugees must seek shelter in the first safe country they come to. We are seeing them give up their life savings and property to be trafficked across the world to land on the european shores where welfare is the highest.
Also, why are their arabic brethen not helping them? Why do they come to europe when do not speak our languages, share our religions, or or values?
A conservative muslim would be very much at home in KSA, Qatar, or any of those nations. They share a language and god with about 300 million+ people in the eastern world, and yet it is europe who is having to suffer the rise in crime rate, the welfare and social housing expense, and the culture clashes.
Why is this? Why are we obligated? Why must we spend, change, and suffer for them?
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (2 children)
Not so fast my friend. Syrian passports are a valuable commodity now, and International Law says refugees must seek shelter in the first safe country they come to
Correct. And it's a good point too. My point though is that because Syria is a warzone anyone can claim that sending them back would be unacceptable - and be right to do so. My point is that there's tens of millions of people who could claim asylum maybe even many tens.
We are seeing them give up their life savings and property to be trafficked across the world to land on the european shores where welfare is the highest.
That's something I do mention later in my post. I think by housing a very small number of refugees we're actively encouraging more people to make the same dangerous journey.
A conservative muslim would be very much at home in KSA, Qatar, or any of those nations.
Yes they would and the arab world does practically fuck all (oh apart from fund the fucking terrorists).
However we cannot just use that as an excuse to do nothing...
Why is this? Why are we obligated? Why must we spend, change, and suffer for them?
I think that's purely an opinion. I think we have a duty to do something, so long as we can show there's a net benefit but that's more a moral thing than something we could establish factually.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
Do nothing? We are in Syria killing ISIS, the ones who are throwing the gays off of buildings, enslaving women and committing genocide against yazidis.
Is that not enough? You say we are obligated to do something, I think we can do a lot of good without harming the culture or welfare systems of our own nations personally
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (0 children)
I don't think it's enough, but I don't necessarily mean we should be spending more money or troops.
One thing we could be doing more of is leadership. I'd say (and maybe this is patriotism) that the UK should be at the head of the table leading the EU, the anglosphere and pressuring other nations - arab, BRIC - to help.
We're actually contributing a decent deal to foreign relative to other nations, but I don't see any issue with increasing it if it was done multilaterally.
[–]EcstaticCashew [score hidden]  (0 children)
One is to accept lots of refugees.
The other is to close borders and reduce foreign aid.
If anything it's the opposite.
Many countries have cut their foreign aid due to the cost of accepting so many refugees. By contrast, we have remained the EU country with the highest overall foreign aid budget, in particular to Syria.
Seeing as the cost of helping a refugee family in western Europe is much greater than elsewhere it's obvious why this is undesirable.
[–]shrike348 [score hidden]  (0 children)
If I was prime minister, I wouldnt let them in
[–]nuggetsoftruth [score hidden]  (5 children)
It does make you wonder what was the point of WW2 and the cold war when we just allow islamo fascists to walk into Europe unopposed and even incentivised with free housing/benefits/healthcare/pensions etc.
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (4 children)
How about protecting the territorial integrity of our allies? Or perhaps preventing genocide?
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (2 children)
Are you claiming that our allies are being invaded by another state or that there's genocide happening?
[–]nuggetsoftruth [score hidden]  (1 child)
Territorial integrity is definitely being violated and we are setting ourselves up for future religious-ethnic conflict. It's going to be very bad indeed.
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (0 children)
Which country invaded which other country?
[–]tb5841 [score hidden]  (5 children)
I think we need a programme to comprehensively educate everyone entering our country, so they know and understand our law.
A few years ago, I made a friend who had immigrated from Portugal. Lovely woman, friendly, appeared sensible. She'd been driving without insurance for a year, which absolutely shocked me - because she simply didn't understand how important car insurance was here. And nobody had told her.
[–]casisa [score hidden]  (0 children)
If we need to "educate" people that rape is a big no-no then maybe they aren't people we want coming here.
Bit of a difference between driving uninsured and raping people, one example is country specific and differs from country to country, one is, or should be, a universally reviled act.
[–]RavelsBolero[S] [score hidden]  (3 children)
Portuguese people are secular and western. And this is about cars. I'm talking about rape. A cultural/religious issue ingrained into those from the society they came in, from their childhood.
I admire your spirit, but there are some things that the magical solution of "education" cannot fix. You cannot educate them out of Islam any more than you can educate me into it. You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into
[–]WebOfPiesTrotskyite [score hidden]  (2 children)
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
This thread is a perfect example of that.
[–]mojojo42Scotland [score hidden]  (0 children)
How so?
Can you find make any criticism of your own argument?
[–]fanzipan [score hidden]  (0 children)
The left are busy manufacturing consent for islamicifcation of Europe whilst ignoring the rape,the murder, the attacks on innocent people. The war is very much in Europe, and people are so oblivious to these bigots it will creep up, and no one wants to listen. The authorities in Europe already have totally disregarded the rapes, covered them up. In Britain the Trojan horse, the gangs of Asian men assaulting , drugging, rape. The indoctrination of Islam to despise women, other religions, other ways of life in schools, and the best export today, terrorists. More come the UK then anywhere else,
[–]Sealbhach [score hidden]  (0 children)
The Gods of Globalization have decreed that open borders and free movement of people is good for economic growth and there's nothing you or any other awfully brave redditor can do to change that. Who cares about civilization when you can have steady 3% GDP growth forever?
[–]JimmyjamjamesI dislike most people [score hidden]  (1 child)
Does anyone have any more up to data in regards to the UK muslim demographic? seems to be the most up to date information i can find.
[–]M2Ys4UPirate Party / Vote to REMAIN in EU [score hidden]  (0 children)
How about the 2011 census? That cable is from 2009.
[–]Timothy_Claypole [score hidden]  (0 children)
Firstly, since the German police have been reported as covering up the crimes of immigrants to avoid sparking outrage among the citizens, will the same thing happen in the UK? Is our media machine going to scramble just as hard to avoid the rage of the common people?
Depends. I mean, what percentage of immigrants are involved in criminal activity? If it was 50% I would be pretty outraged if the media covered it up. If it was 0.01% I would not be, because that is a lot lower than the percentage of people who are from the UK.
[–]Whitechocolatekrispi [score hidden]  (0 children)
How about we actually enact powerful deportation rules.
We give you a chance, one chance at integrating into our society. You screw up, your done. Your out.
It's quite simple. There are thousands of innocent hardworking refugees that could be a massive benefit to this country, but there are also thousands who are not. You can't filter them at the border so you either block them entirely, or let them in with conditions.
Why the fuck should our tax money be wasted trying to re-educate them? We can barely educate our own children as it is.
Easy deportation is the solution to this.
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (16 children)
Do we have any users who frequent /r/TheBluePill here? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter discussed above.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (10 children)
Do you mean the red pill? I don't ever go to either but I'm aware the red pill is the unpleasant me first, me only attitude and the blue pill is a circle jerk of DAE hate red pill.
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (9 children)
I think we may have a shill in our midst.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (8 children)
I'm totally lost... ?
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (7 children)
OP is a /r/TheRedPill poster. And "discussing" something which they've probably already made their mind up about but is trying to change others minds (shilling).
The Germany attacks should be a massive red flag whenever they're mentioned.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (1 child)
I'm not surprised to hear that, it was clear from the OP that was what he was thinking, but he was civil enough about asking.
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (0 children)
Civil, yes, but ultimately disingenuous.
[–]Ewannnn [score hidden]  (0 children)
I remember he was a top poster on one of the world news threads saying he was a 'liberal guy at heart'. Of course someone checked his post history and called him out on his bullshit. Seems like a typical shill account to me too.
[–]TENRIB [score hidden]  (3 children)
So lets not discuss it at all then.
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (2 children)
You want to ban all discussion? For what reason?
[–]TENRIB [score hidden]  (1 child)
I cant tell if you missed my sarcasm or I'm missing yours but you seem to be suggesting that anyone concerned about what happened in Germany is trying to promote an alterer agenda and people talking about it are inherently racist.
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (0 children)
I didn't miss yours. ;-)
I don't think every poster bringing it up is inherently racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/ageist/ablist/whatever. But because it is being used by shitty people to push an agenda, I will check that posters history to see what they're really like.
[–]DeathHamster1 [score hidden]  (4 children)
Must you bring viagra into every discussion?
[–]HMRandC [score hidden]  (2 children)
It keeps the conversation going.
[–]Man-aliveLib Dem [score hidden]  (1 child)
Until it sticks in your throat - then you just get a stiff neck.
[–]HalkRadical Centre 4.8,-5.1 [score hidden]  (0 children)
There's eye drops now, but they just make you look hard.
[–]shrike348 [score hidden]  (2 children)
It might seem bad of me, but I see a light in the future caused by the current chaos in the middle east. I compare it to WW2, where after huge bloodshed caused by chaos in Europe and radicalism, the people of Europe say 'never again'. Hopefully we see the same attitude among the muslim world
[–]Chazmer87 [score hidden]  (1 child)
Hopefully we don't need to see the sort of devastation caused in WW2 for that to happen :(
[–]shrike348 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Sadly not in our control
[–]Herodiimar [score hidden]  (0 children)
We wont discuss anything
[–]hpshout [score hidden]  (0 children)
My view is, if you accept migrants, you should accept every aspect of their culture - both good and bad, or don't bother taking them in at all.
The Western worlds "multiculturalism" is a fraud where we just pick and choose aspects of culture we accept. It never works anyway, we just sit by and hope they "integrate", when time and time again we see the same shit happening.
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