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europe

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top 200 commentsshow all 232-
[–]ScaryAtheist 88 points89 points90 points  (20 children)
Same thing in Norway. On average they're years behind the accepted Norwegian level of reading and math comprehension achieved through high school.
[–]NorwayTom-Pendragon 35 points36 points37 points  (15 children)
Good thing that we aren't taking in too many.
[–]VojvodinaIngvar64 21 points22 points23 points  (14 children)
You are going to regret that.
Deutsche Bank Chief Economist David Folkerts-Landau told Die Welt last month. “I could even imagine a cultural and economic renaissance.”
[–]European Unionwongie 28 points29 points30 points  (8 children)
Ah yes, the poor and begotten of our society; so often sources of great artistic and literary merit amongst Western civilization.
[–]Portugalandy18cruz 12 points13 points14 points  (5 children)
Think about all that great rap music that only comes from poor neighbourhoods full of social excluded people. Do you really want to pass a chance to have that in your country?
[–]Lithuaniatimelyparadox [score hidden]  (4 children)
Oh you just added another reason to why not to let that many of them in.
[–]Earth976692e3005e1a7cfc41 [score hidden]  (2 children)
I want to take Finnish people in and make them piss poor. Think of the heavy metal bands we could get out of their misery, dude.
[–]Lithuaniatimelyparadox [score hidden]  (1 child)
You would run out of alcohol though.
[–]MiscegenatorMan [score hidden]  (0 children)
Vocational training in distillation and metal guitar.
Now, how do we get the Finns to look each other in the eye long enough to start a civil war and get them over here?
[–]United States of Americasihtydaernacuoytihsy 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Hey! Over here! - The Jews.
[–]United States of Americapolylov [score hidden]  (0 children)
Rembrandt, Modigliani, and Van Gogh all lived and died poor. Maybe have some knowledge next time you speak on a subject?
[–]NoOneWhere 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
.... What the fuck? Someone drunk too much of the koolaid.
[–]NorwayTom-Pendragon 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
Why?
[–]Polandkrokots 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
C'mon, I can smell the sarcasm through my monitor in that one.
[–][deleted]  (1 child)
[removed]
    [–]The NetherlandsDutchPotHead 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    Probably not illiterate. But under most European countries' laws they're not doctors since their qualifications aren't accepted here.
    [–]Arukenna -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
    People were saying they would be skilled when this began. Others said, "Syria has a low literacy rate."
    [–]Norway / NetherlandsMiriMiri [score hidden]  (0 children)
    Of course, it doesn't really help that the system won't get them up to level on reading and math. When NAV itself thinks it's a problem, it's definitely a problem.
    [–]Denmark EU-ScepticFuppen 161 points162 points163 points  (56 children)
    7 out of 8 migrants from Syria do not have a job 4 years after they get residence permit.
    So to think they'll plug the labor gap is a delusion. Then comes the problems with the 2nd and 3rd generations. Many of them commit so much crime that its.. Well.. Disheartening. 30% of the rapes in Denmark is committed by a immigrant and they're less than 8% of the population. Danish source.
    [–]jamieusa 9 points10 points11 points  (4 children)
    If you stop giving them money then they have to work. If working for minimum wage is less than the money you are giving them then why would they work?
    [–]HaveJoystick 6 points7 points8 points  (3 children)
    It's not that simple, of course. Even if they want to work - and were given permission to do so - their chances on the labor market will be incredibly poor, due to comparatively low education, lack of job training, and especially due to language problems.
    [–]jamieusa -5 points-4 points-3 points  (2 children)
    The US has less then 350m people v. The EUs over 500m and our job market absorbed 11.4m illegal immigrants.
    We also get over 1m legal immigrants/asylums a year. Europeans love to claim that we hand pick every single person that comes and that is true in some cases because we do background check everyone that comes. However, the green card lottery is designed to make sure that normal people can immigrate as well. A lot of immigrants to the United States are not PhD's like Europeans like to claim.
    [–]HaveJoystick 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
    I don't live in the US so my knowledge of the actual situation is limited by distance; but my impression is that a lot of the illegal migrants in the US work in agriculture.
    Our economy simply has no capacity to soak up unskilled labor. I mean, sure, such jobs exist, to some point; but certainly not enough that you can just stop paying migrants/refugees benefits and all of a sudden all or even most of them would start working.
    Also don't forget that unemployment is still very high in many EU countries to begin with - Spain, Greece, et al.
    [–]DrSeltsam [score hidden]  (0 children)
    The US is much whealthier than the EU. Your GDP/capita is higher than Germanys which is one of the whealthiest countiries in Europe. In addition assylum seekers aren´t even close to beeing evenly distributed in the EU.
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 14 points15 points16 points  (19 children)
    In Germany, 50% have a job after 5 years (German source, graph on page 10).
    Downvoters: you really hate to see facts that don't fit your preconceptions, eh?
    [–]Finlandpicardo85 28 points29 points30 points  (5 children)
    14 years to reach whats often called the break even point... add a few years of work there and then they will be pensioners.
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (4 children)
    Can you give a source for that "break even point" thing? Because 75% is a really high percentage, given that you'll have housewives and old people.
    I suspect that you're thinking of utilization figures for employees, but that is a completely different thing.
    [–]Finlandpicardo85 12 points13 points14 points  (2 children)
    Sweden's been talking a lot about having to have 72% of the employable population working for a break even situation.
    I hence only have sources in swedish:
    Tino Sanandaji (Macro Economist and researcher) often called in as an expert regarding these types of questions.
    Svenska Dagbladet one of the largest daily newspapers in Sweden.
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 -5 points-4 points-3 points  (1 child)
    Ah, I see. Well, the keyword is employable population - not every refugee is employable, just like not every Swede is.
    [–]Finlandpicardo85 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    Well, able bodied men in their 20s-30s isn't something that seems to be lacking among the migrants. You don't see that many wounded or people of pension age coming across the borders now, do you?
    The people who'd stand outside the potential workforce would be the sub-18 segment.
    [–]HaveJoystick 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    Because 75% is a really high percentage, given that you'll have housewives and old people.
    One would assume that, since the authors of that study compare the situation to that of native Germans, they have accounted for that. Even in our economically uncertain times, 25% unemployment is really, really shitty.
    [–]HaveJoystick 20 points21 points22 points  (0 children)
    And never really rises above that, maxing out at 60-70% for refugees, and peaks at about 75% for other migrants.
    Downvoters: you really hate to see facts that don't fit your preconceptions, eh?
    If you are going to quote statistics, don't pick and choose.
    [–]SpacePilotX 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
    As a German, I refuse to accept statistics from the bundesagentur as a legit source. How many years has it been since von der Leyen excluded a whole bunch of people from these statistics? Have you already forgotten?
    [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 7 points8 points9 points  (7 children)
    Is that a good figure in your opinion?
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (6 children)
    Pretty good, given that the figure is about 53% for the entirety of the German population.
    [–]ItaliaJoeFalchetto 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
    It is not a very meaningful comparison if not adjusted for age.
    [–]HaveJoystick 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
    The demographics of refugees and migrants are not the same as that of the entire German population. The report you quotes makes that quite clear.
    In other words, you are indeed comparing apples and oranges. Whether out of ignorance, or due to a political agenda, I can't say; but your conclusions are incorrect.
    [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
    Source? I could not find that in the link you posted.
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 -5 points-4 points-3 points  (2 children)
    Population of Germany: 80.6 million, source: everywhere
    [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
    This counts children, retired people, etc... It is not a fair comparison at all. It only makes sense to consider people who can be employed.
    [–]Germanybrazzy42 -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
    Sure, and the same is true for refugees.
    [–]rereretoto 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    42% are unemployed (doesnt include sudents, housewives, children etc.)... so they ARE leeching
    [–]My_God_is_Coffee 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
    But lets not forget that they aren't immigrants. Thats the point. They have to leave when their homeland is some sort of stable. To make Syria stable... I really don't believe that we can destroy ISIS without troops.
    [–]Bullshit_-_detector 44 points45 points46 points  (0 children)
    Breaking news: The majority of the 1 million people who arrived to Germany last year will NEVER leave Germany.
    [–]DerLoladin 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
    Yes, they are. They are here to stay. How long will the Syrian War still last? 2 years? 5? Perhaps even longer. Especially the younger ones will stay, they get everything they need, can work (IF they want to) or just go about and commit crimes, since german sentences are really low and prison is more of a low-quality hotel stay.
    [–]Polandmaorycy 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    They have to leave when their homeland is some sort of stable.
    They won't. Now even if the war ends, their emigration hurts Syria even more.
    [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven comment score below threshold-27 points-26 points-25 points  (25 children)
    30% of the rapes in Denmark is committed by a immigrant and they're less than 8% of the population.
    But they are 90% of the poor population. Poor people commit more crimes and are far more likely to be found guilty about it, it has nothing to do with being an immigrant or not. If you deported all the immigrants you would find that the poorest 8% of Danes commits 30% of the rapes.
    [–]Canary Islandsthe_frickerman 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
    Good Point, and true. Now, you are not addressing the question. What was the rape Ratio commited by the poor Population before the waves of immigrants came to Denmark? Was it the same, smaller or higher? Answer that question and compare it to the current stats you are showing, and then we'll see if those rape stats are influenced by something more than just poverty.
    [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven -9 points-8 points-7 points  (2 children)
    "Poor" in not just an economic term. Social factors come into play (like marginalization and lack of education) of which immigrants suffer even more than non-immigrant poor people.
    My point: there is nothing special about being Syrian or a Muslim. The real cause is poverty (lack of economic founds, marginalization, lack of education etc.). A Dane in the same circumstances would do the same.
    [–]EnglandJanRegal 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    Culture can and does play a huge part.
    [–]Denmark EU-ScepticFuppen 9 points10 points11 points  (4 children)
    Immigrants are far from 90% of the poor in Denmark.
    And even when its adjusted for socio economic status, they still commit more crimes.
    [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven -14 points-13 points-12 points  (2 children)
    First of, nice kettle logic.
    If you look at the stats you will see that immigrants are up to 3 times more likely to be poor than the general population (which still contains immigrants). I could not find stats for the poorest people of Denmark but I am sure that there are overwhelmingly many immigrants at the bottom.
    And even when its adjusted for socio economic status, they still commit more crimes.
    Source?
    [–]Finlandkaneliomena 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
    I don't know about Denmark, but African and Middle-Eastern immigrants in Finland are 12-13 times more likely to be convicted of rape than Finns even after controlling for demography and socioeconomic factors.
    Source in Finnish (they're citing a criminology researcher from Uni. of Helsinki)
    [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
    If you look at the stats[1] you will see that immigrants are up to 3 times more likely to be poor
    Let's import a permanent underclass, with a consistent track record of staying mired in poverty and resentment generation after generation. What a good idea!
    Because one day, we'll be able to sort it all out, they'll raise to the same level as the general population, and everything will be wonderful. When will this happen? Next year, it will always happen next year.
    [–][deleted]  (12 children)
    [removed]
      [–]CataloniaBadxellos 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
      And being an immigrant does make you more accepting towards rape? I am myself an immigrant in Denmark and your... "text" is horribly discriminatory and prejudicial towards me, and people like me.
      [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven comment score below threshold-11 points-10 points-9 points  (10 children)
      You might think you are social-oriented and left wing person, but what you just wrote is horribly discriminatory and prejudicial towards precisely the poor.
      It is based on fact:
      Poverty causes crime
      In the countries where the social discrimination factor isn't very strong, results have shown that less education meant more criminal offenses ranging from property crime to “casual” theft and drug-related offenses (again, mostly theft). But not violence. It appears that in fact, poverty itself is more tied with violence, criminal damage and also drug use - as a catalyst for violence.
      No, being poor does not, in any way, make someone more accepting towards rape.
      I never talked about acceptance. Just about the measured fact that poor people commit more crime. I would like to note that I myself come from a combined poor and immigrant background.
      And far more often punished by the people of that community themselves. Because the average poor community of Europeans doesn't see unveiled, liberal women as "worthless prostitutes", the way Islamic communities do.
      Now that is a disgusting and racist thing to say.
      [–][deleted]  (8 children)
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        [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven 2 points3 points4 points  (5 children)
        You can be racist towards ethnically different people.
        Racism consists of ideologies and practices that seek to justify, or cause, the unequal distribution of privileges or rights among groups that are conceptualized as racially or ethnically different.
        The right wingers that are on the rise in Europe today are not just Islamophobes, they are racists. The reason: Christian immigrants from Syria, Egypt etc. (of which there are many) are treated exactly the same as their Muslim compatriots.
        I doubt that the guy I replied to (who is from Bulgaria) has any problem with Bulgarian Muslims (of which, again, there are many). It is Syrians and North-Africans that he hates and discriminates against. Not just Muslims.
        [–]BulgariaSzkwarek 4 points5 points6 points  (4 children)
        I have problem with people who see domestic abuse, rape or discrimination towards women justified in particular cirmunstances, namely when they are liberal no-islamic women. It doesn't matter where they come from. The local muslim community in Bulgaria has that problem too, but it's confined to those in the Rhodope mointains more than anyone else. The Christians from Syria i have nothing against, nor the muslims who don't share those atttitudes i described. It just so happens Islam directly theologically teaches such behaviour towards women and decrees violence directly. There are even verses on how exactly you ought to beat your dissobedient wife. How can someone who obviously tries to be leftist not recognise the Fascism in Islam is beyond me. You are so blinded by your desire to appear "humane" and have all immigrants as allies in your struggle against the right-wing, that you fail to see the very, very far-right, conservative proto-Fascism within Islam as an ideology and all those muslims, who are more than passive members of the community, but active practitioners of the religion.
        [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
        It just so happens Islam directly theologically teaches such behaviour towards women and decrees violence directly.
        How can someone who obviously tries to be leftist not recognise the Fascism in Islam is beyond me.
        If I was to treat other people (especially the ones who are poorer or weaker than me) according to what their religion teaches I would have to drop a nuclear bomb and kill a big majority of the population. Almost all western religions (including Christianity) teach some things that are abhorrent. I treat people as people. What is really happening is that you are trying to project your racism towards immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East on the shortcomings of some kind of dogma. Why don't you do the same for your fellow christian neighbors? There are plenty of misogynistic things written in the Bible as well.
        How can someone who obviously tries to be leftist not recognise the Fascism in Islam is beyond me.
        There is just as much Fascism in Islam as there is in any religion. I dislike them all equally.
        You are so blinded by your desire to appear "humane" and have all immigrants as allies in your struggle against the right-wing, that you fail to see the very, very far-right, conservative proto-Fascism within Islam as an ideology and all those muslims, who are more than passive members of the community, but active practitioners of the religion.
        I am so far left to see that all religions are bullshit and what actually is different is the socioeconomic status of the people practicing it. Rich, educated, free Christians do not differ from rich, educated, free Muslims.
        [–]BulgariaSzkwarek 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
        This leftist myth about Christianity is all nice and well, until you open up the actual New Testament and try and find it. Christ never thought people to beat their women, kill adulterers or consider those not "modest" enough as prostitutes. Those are passages from teh Quran and i can give them to you, whereas in the meantime Christ thought the very opposite - he DEFENDED a prostitute from stoning and decreed "don't judge, lest you be judged". Whilst Mohammad stoned women himself. It's a diametrical juxtaposition that just doesn't fit your nice little Marxist mantra of "All religions are the same". They aren't, same as all political ideologies aren't the same, and you sound as uneducated as someone who says "i hate politics, all political ideologies teach the same bad stuff".
        [–]Latvia--o 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        The old testament and a few hundred years of history disagree with your myth of Christian benevolence.
        [–]Greek living in Germanyravingraven 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        Timothy 2:12
        [–]CataloniaBadxellos 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        Islam is not a race, but in the mind of the public, Muslims have a common appearance. Dark features, with white but slightly darker skin.
        You can be pretty sure that all this is going to have consequences for the people that "look" Muslim.
        [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
        Poverty and property crime? You can probably make the case.
        Poverty and rape? That's a lot harder.
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                              [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
                              According to this German economist, 2/3 of the refugees are functionally illiterate and have only the most basic math skills.
                              [–]m3time 104 points105 points106 points  (52 children)
                              why is their solution to aging population immigration?
                              why can't they provide incentives for the natives to have children such as in hungary?
                              [–]beckybeckerson 67 points68 points69 points  (36 children)
                              Please explain to me how an aging population is a problem in a future of increased automation, self driving cars and renewable energy?
                              [–]Jet20 44 points45 points46 points  (2 children)
                              I've been wondering if declining birth rates in the west is simply a market adjusting to new conditions of society and work (ie less need for kids for helping run manual labor, automation lowering society's requirement for unskilled work).
                              And if so, why are we desperately trying to prevent this by bringing in large amount of unskilled foreigners?
                              [–]Swedenframabe 20 points21 points22 points  (0 children)
                              because they dont know how to handle a change in paradigm.
                              Just look at how the record and movie industry are slow to adapt to streaming. Or the car industry from fossil fuel to something more enviromentally friendly. They rather keep with a system that they know works, but hurts them, rather than something new.
                              [–]presidenttrump_2016 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                              And if so, why are we desperately trying to prevent this by bringing in large amount of unskilled foreigners?
                              Because corporations always want cheaper labor.
                              [–]GermanyBristlerider 47 points48 points49 points  (25 children)
                              Self driving cars dont pay money into the welfare and pension system.
                              [–]Slovakiaserviust 178 points179 points180 points  (7 children)
                              Neither unemployed immigrants.
                              [–]European Unionrzet 25 points26 points27 points  (0 children)
                              True.
                              [–]BulgariaSzkwarek 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
                              The original comment you are writing underneath argued against immigration and for increased birth rates. So your comment, albeit upvoted, is irrelevant. No one here's defending immigration, but incetives for birth rates.
                              [–]Evil Empire of the Dark SunLe_German_Face 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
                              Maybe you could use them to start a civil war that will reduce numbers on each side.
                              Also looks suspiciously like that, doesn't it? I mean slowly reducing numbers due to a lack of children is no controlled development.
                              Some have more children and some have less children. I think the only concern anyone should have in what is to come is that you don't get in between the line of fire and that you don't let yourself be used as cannon fodder.
                              [–]DerLoladin -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
                              The CIA has predicted a civil war in europe by 2019 (gonna find the source and edit it here when Im home)
                              [–]Not_aNoob 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
                              And if there isn't one, the CIA will start one.
                              [–]SpacePilotX [score hidden]  (0 children)
                              In fact, it is happening already. The hidden agenda is to destabilize Europe in order to tighten the laws and have full control.
                              [–]IrelandThread_water 12 points13 points14 points  (7 children)
                              Ok but I have a question. Is there youth unemployment in Germany? I know there is here in Ireland, and thus I feel there is a surplus of people for the amount of work that needs to be done. Is this not the case in Germany? Or is it that you predict this won't be the case in the future?
                              I've always held the opinion that less people is better. More land, food, resources (besides labour) for every person. Not only that but pollution and environmental damage will reduce with a reducing population.
                              Surely people don't want the population to increase forever.
                              Edit: Oh yeah and I forgot the most important advantage of less people, less fucking traffic. Fucking hours on the m50 everyday now and people are still pumping out babies. :P
                              [–]Evil Empire of the Dark SunLe_German_Face 16 points17 points18 points  (2 children)
                              Ok but I have a question. Is there youth unemployment in Germany? I know there is here in Ireland, and thus I feel there is a surplus of people for the amount of work that needs to be done. Is this not the case in Germany? Or is it that you predict this won't be the case in the future?
                              Yes there is. They vary in excuses why they can't use or employ them. One time they blame it on education, another time they blame it on their behaviour.
                              They say we have not enough well educated people. I personally know about 6 university graduates who can't find a real job and have to hang in there with low paid jobs and internships.
                              The labour gap is a big fucking lie and of all people especially those on the left side of the spectrum, those that call themselves social are the ones that keep this lie alive.
                              [–]Finlandl-w 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
                              When talking about education it's important to keep in mind that universities pump out all sorts of people. Someone who studied art or history in university is highly educated, but pretty much useless for a vast majority of companies because of their chosen field.
                              Not that I disagree with your assessment of the labour gap being vastly over stated.
                              [–]Gogogon 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                              Exactly. In a welfare state where the state pays for most or all of tuition cost, the state should be able to set targets for which educations students should get.
                              Higher education is a fundamental part of the states investment in the nation's future prosperity, and as such it should be able to choose a more effective investment, by shifting the students more towards needed educations, and away from hard to employ fields within the humanities.
                              The state shouldn't take control of students lives by forcing a field upon them, but rather lower the limits on the number of students in hard to employ classes/fields, thus making a number of students have to seek admission in other more-employable fields.
                              [–]DerLoladin 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                              Yes it's a large problem and once in a while you will hear some Company head say "We have soo many places for younger people, we just can't find anyone!" There is a list of things that cause this but first and foremost, they have INSANE (!) requirements for simple, manual labor but want to pay like crap. Give you an example, a car repair shop wants 5 new mechanics. However, they should all have Abitur (highest achievable result) and accept salary just above the minimal wage. They also should work over-time and so on...
                              [–]The NetherlandsDutchPotHead 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
                              With a lot of countries it's mostly just people not holding the right knowledge. At the moment here in the Netherlands construction industry is still doing terrible. Lots of unemployment. At the same time there'd industry estimates that between now and 2020 or 2030 there is a need for 200.000 to 400.000 engineers. Same with IT in many countries. There's enough people that are able to service a computer network for a company. There's not enough computer engineers creating the systems and infrastructure for it.
                              Another problem is lack of funding. The Dutch healthcare is understaffed (they do a great job but there's often to much pressure on the people) yet there's not enough money to hire enough nurses etc. Same is for education. Lack of qualified good teachers. Lack of funds to attract good qualified teachers and help them develop their skills.
                              [–]NoOneWhere 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                              Re healthcare and education: healthcare are enough employees for but the government and the employers are fuckalls when it comes to the budget.
                              Education: enough employees, but the payment vs the things you need to do (the workload) is getting nuts even for the most willing person. Not to mention a lot in education are getting burnouts because the workload is way too high. Highschools aren't getting enough funding, and colleges and universities are spending it completely wrong...
                              [–]The NetherlandsDutchPotHead 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                              Which both relate to budgeting as I stated. U say there's enough teachers but to much work load. In other words. They manage. But more teachers are needed so the average work load goes down.
                              [–]Norwayfourredfruitstea 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                              Actually they do, same way a factory or more efficient machinery pays money into the pension system. Imagine if the self driving cars cuts costs by x% on every goods due to saving, now that extra will either turn into money for consumers or the state can tax that money.
                              In a state of unemployment this calculation becomes more complex, however the premise for this scenario is population reduction and labour shortages, so not a valid objection in this case.
                              [–]Czech RepublicPokemasterTT 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                              That's why you need to tax companies
                              [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                              If the owners of the robots pay their fair share, we will all be okay.
                              [–]suamiBigSpaghetti 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                              they kinda do though as a result of less accidents and stuff.
                              [–]ethles 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                              Don't worry about that, robotics will be the new slaves.
                              [–]SloveniaDowagerInUnrentVeils 8 points9 points10 points  (1 child)
                              Slaves ALSO don't pay money into the welfare and pension system...
                              [–]ethles 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
                              Slaves ALSO don't pay money into the welfare and pension system
                              And they also do not need a welfare and pension system.
                              We will see that not many humans will be necessary to support the human population. More and more robots will work for that. More and more humans will not need to work.
                              Check the unconditional basic income. One of the reason we will need that is robotics.
                              Let's just hope that this tech will serve all humans and not the 1%.
                              [–]ImJustPassinBy 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                              Aging population is not a problem per se. The problem with relying more on automation is that more people will sink into relative poverty, which can already be seen today (as opposed to 50 years ago). However, as far as I see it, this is more a problem of bad politics than an aging population and increased automation.
                              TL;DR: aging population is a problem only because of incapable governments.
                              [–]anusdestroyer50000 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                              Wealth distribution. The money saved by automation won't be shared by society. It will go to the owners of automats, "the 1%". It's not even the future, it's already ongoing process. The gap between the richest 1% and the 99% remaining poor people gets bigger each year.
                              Now you could try to do something about it, by taxing the rich, etc. But thanks to immigration crisis, right-wing politicans gain popularity. And they're heavily against any control over wealth distribution.
                              [–]Hungarypepperboon 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                              But thanks to immigration crisis, right-wing politicans gain popularity. And they're heavily against any control over wealth distribution.
                              Maybe in the US, but that's not the case everywhere. For example Hungary's right-wing is pretty left-wing regarding taxing and socialization. "Left" and "right" are not as consistent over time and space as some people imagine. Being against immigration doesn't imply you are against a large government.
                              [–]useyourilyushin 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                              money. old people are entitled to pension money etc and also tend to require more and more expensive healthcare as they increasingly age. you need young people working to pay taxes to pay for all of that.
                              edit: refugees/migrants get old too. so importing a bunch of people doesn't really solve the problem unless you plan on doing this ad infinitum
                              [–]m3time 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                              Maybe it's not but the politicians are treating it as such
                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)
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                                [–]AustriaSordak 4 points5 points6 points  (8 children)
                                Going with the one reason i could think of that makes it sound the least evil.
                                The people that came up with that idea are relativeley old. Merkel but also others, they are an aging demographic that will soon stop to work.
                                Attempting to solve this problem with immigration if anything, even if it works, only postpones the problem. Especialy if you only import males.
                                However, these people are old, they care about getting paid when they can no longer work, what comes after that realy isnt their problem anymore.
                                [–]Germanyfluchtpunkt 11 points12 points13 points  (5 children)
                                The asylum seekers are not in Germany to plug any gap. They are here for humanitarian reasons only. Neither to replace the aging population nor to provide a cheap workforce.
                                Any positive effect of asylum seekers is "if life gives you lemons make lemonade".
                                We have plenty other migration that we want. EU migration for example. Because it's much cheaper, and the social tensions that are caused by it are less severe.
                                Even if you remove every single asylum seeker from the statistics, Germany has the highest net migration in the EU. In 2015 we might have reached a net migration of +400,000 EU-citizens alone (2014: +340,000, 2013: +300,000).
                                [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 12 points13 points14 points  (1 child)
                                They are here for humanitarian reasons only.
                                There seems to be a consensus on this.
                                Can we please, please, please then agree that there stay must be temporary, that they cannot start families and permanent lives here, and that they will have to go eventually?
                                Can we please abandon any mad notion that granting citizenship is any sort of sane or effective 'humanitarian' measure??
                                Being a refugee should not give you any more access to citizenship that any other person. Refugees should have to go through the exact same steps to actual permanent residence as any other aspirants.
                                [–]Germanyheilsarm 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                Can we please, please, please then agree that there stay must be temporary, that they cannot start families and permanent lives here, and that they will have to go eventually?
                                That's the legal situation. However, I think that after all we've done on a humanitarian level it's only fair that, after the respective conflicts are over, we allow the most qualified/hard working refugees to stay here if they want to. On the other hand, those that haven't proven themselves must go immediately as soon as their home country is safe.
                                Being a refugee should not give you any more access to citizenship that any other person. Refugees should have to go through the exact same steps to actual permanent residence as any other aspirants.
                                Afaik only Sweden has some special rules for refugees. In Germany, you have to sustain yourself and your dependants for a certain period of time just like everyone else before you can be considered for naturalization.
                                [–]AustriaSordak 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
                                The asylum seekers are not in Germany to plug any gap. They are here for humanitarian reasons only. Neither to replace the aging population nor to provide a cheap workforce.
                                And as you might have noticed, i never said they were. I did say that they are used as economic bargaining chips to turn the favor away from workers but that was another thread.
                                Im saying that this was the reasoning for the people that did so. For merkel, it might also have been her attempting to immortalize herself, you gotta remember, shes getting old and has no children.
                                [–]rndmnck 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                I still have a tough time believing the party that was so harsh on Greece and in general pushed austerity throughout the EU is at the same time motivated by extreme humanitarianism on how they're handling this. I still think they thought this would somehow further the interests of the CDU, German corporations, and perhaps German power throughout the EU.
                                [–]yurpsaati 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                Do you have any reason to think the incentives work in hungary?
                                [–][deleted]  (1 child)
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                                  [–]m3time 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                  I'll have to do some research on that. I thought it was brand new legislation.
                                  [–]ptsazuke [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                  Aging population does not need a solution as it is not a problem.
                                  [–]DenmarkDoesHaveFunSometimes 40 points41 points42 points  (12 children)
                                  Germany and EU have two separate problems, speaking economically only as there are many other aspects, money isn't everything:
                                  1. Ageing population that require and deserve welfare which is costly
                                  2. Immigration from third world countries increases cost
                                  Problem no. 2 is not a solution to problem no. 1
                                  [–]HazKaz 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
                                  Its expensive having Kids , at least in London . Plus the 40 hour work week , makes it inconvenient. fact is western countries are not interested in helping their own population growth . If your a man its so difficult to get parental leave, also in terms of leaving your job for a long time is just not feasible .
                                  [–]Kingdom of SaxonyTheDuffman_OhYeah 20 points21 points22 points  (7 children)
                                  A shrinking workforce will be a godsend when automation really kicks in. There are many warnings that up to 30% of all jobs will become obsolete.
                                  [–]Ireland (living in Austria)Ataraxia2320 8 points9 points10 points  (5 children)
                                  Been saying this for the last 2 years and people look at me like I'm a crazy person. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.
                                  [–]Gremlinator_TITSMACK 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
                                  Idk how can people be this stupid. I mean, the whole transportation industry - Taxi, Car, Public drivers are getting replaced in a decade.
                                  [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
                                  You mean because it's blatantly obvious, and the current EU thought process derives from the minds of the clinically insane?
                                  [–]Ireland (living in Austria)Ataraxia2320 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                  It's not so blatantly obvious to Joe soap but the EU should know better.
                                  [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                  Same here. And people still try to make me feel guilty for not having kids. I prefer to help build the robots and campaign for basic income.
                                  [–]Finlandtissotti 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                  I don't think you will find many who would argue against you, though I feel people are overestimating how fast that change is coming and in what scale.
                                  People have been saying similar things with every paradigm changes in labor since the industrial age. Example 60% of jobs in US today didn't exists in the 30s. Much of the manufacturing is already out of Western Europe. One of the theories is that automation might once again localize manufacturing. Something that would bring more work back into West. As it is West has been moving towards services for decades now and EU-28 GDP is 73% of services.
                                  I do agree that the nature of workforce is changing and the brute force old timey, shipping boatloads of cheap workforce USA used to do is nearing to its end. That said I personally think we will still do one round of it with the larger scale industrialization of Vietnam and India a'la China with it moving upstream before the changes really kick here in the west. Concerning services there are things like eldercare or nursing, where there is huge demand and it will only increase in the coming years.
                                  [–]Germanyfoobar5678 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                  It's also been going in for decades. Work productivity is massively up compared to 50 years ago. So shouldn't we already need fewer workers?
                                  Problem is that wages haven't risen at the same rate as productivity and companies don't get taxed enough.
                                  [–]OfficerDarrenWilson 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
                                  Problem no. 2 is not a solution to problem no. 1
                                  Oh yeah? You just aren't thinking dynamically enough. Taking one simple measure can rectify both problem 1 and 2, just like that.
                                  [–]notheresnolight 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                  why would you want to turn immigrants into frogs ?
                                  [–]AdrianWerner 25 points26 points27 points  (0 children)
                                  Yep. Immigrants from middle east won't solve the problem. In fact it will only make it worse, by creating a huge underclass that mostly relies on support of the goverment to survive.
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                                              [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
                                              I hate to be all paranoid, but this does make sense. One year after Germany implements the minimum wage they start receiving refugees like crazy. It is the only explanation I know that doesn't make the politicians a bunch of naive dreamers. They are only bowing to pressure from the corporations, as always.
                                              [–]Germanyfluchtpunkt 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
                                              So the same politicians that implemented the minimum wage, created a massive influx of refugees, so they can remove the minimum wage again? Minimum wage was implemented by the current government.
                                              And because the government doesn't actually want minimum wage, the employment minister says that the minimum wage should be increased in 2017.
                                              How does this makes sense?
                                              And by the way, most people who got a wage increase after the minimum wage was implemented don't work for corporations. The majority of them work for small business, many of them family owned. Bakeries, hair dressers, taxi drivers and so one.
                                              [–]MeGustanLasFajitas 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                              It's not the same politicians. There were several battles to make the minimum wage a reality. The pressure was very strong from the left.
                                              Edit: source
                                              Now the government can have a minimum wage, look generous towards refugees AND give the businesses cheap workforce. Isn't that great?
                                              Do you have a source for "most people who got a wage increase after the minimum wage was implemented don't work for corporations"?
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                                                  [–]Norwayfourredfruitstea 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
                                                  Truth is, all systems fail without Asabiyyah.
                                                  Ibn Khaldun uses the term Asabiyyah to describe the bond of cohesion among humans in a group forming community. The bond, Asabiyyah, exists at any level of civilization, from nomadic society to states and empires.[3] Asabiyyah is most strong in the nomadic phase, and decreases as civilization advances.[3] As this Asabiyyah declines, another more compelling Asabiyyah may take its place; thus, civilizations rise and fall, and history describes these cycles of Asabiyyah as they play out.[3]
                                                  Ibn Khaldun argues that each dynasty (or civilization) has within itself the seeds of its own downfall. He explains that ruling houses tend to emerge on the peripheries of great empires and use the much stronger `asabiyya present in those areas to their advantage, in order to bring about a change in leadership. This implies that the new rulers are at first considered "barbarians" by comparison to the old ones. As they establish themselves at the center of their empire, they become increasingly lax, less coordinated, disciplined and watchful, and more concerned with maintaining their new power and lifestyle at the centre of the empire—i.e, their internal cohesion and ties to the original peripheral group, the asabiyya, dissolves into factionalism and individualism, diminishing their capacity as a political unit.
                                                  [–]DEADB33F 8 points9 points10 points  (4 children)
                                                  and rethink rules that give precedence to German and EU applicants.
                                                  How does Germany propose to dodge the EU law which states that companies must preferentially offer jobs to other EU citizens before offering them to foreign migrants? I thought this was one of the core principles of EU membership?
                                                  Or will they just ignore it in order to give migrants jobs at the expense of fellow EU citizens? (many of which live in countries with high unemployment and would be perfectly willing to live and work in Germany)
                                                  [–]Spainjoavim 22 points23 points24 points  (0 children)
                                                  I'm a Spaniard living (and working) in Germany.
                                                  After 6 years, I think I can say I'm integrated and feel part of this society, which I sometimes feel I appreciate and cherish more than many old Germans. I have a full-time, stable job and live with my German girlfriend.
                                                  That being said, it was definitely not easy, especially when it comes to learning the language. German is hard, and it takes years to master, much more if you want to achieve a high degree of proficiency and avoid making mistakes. I'm saying this because if it was hard for me, and I had a university degree and come from a country that is closer in terms of culture, values and religion than Syria, Iraq, etc., we shouldn't get our hopes too high when it comes to the recent wave of refugees.
                                                  [–]Germanyfluchtpunkt 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
                                                  You misunderstood that. Currently there are laws that only allow businesses to employ asylum seekers (with undecided or denied applications) if they can prove that there is no EU citizen who can do the job.
                                                  If that law is abolished, it does not mean that a business has to employ asylum seekers before they can employ EU citizens. It would just mean that Germans, EU-citizens and asylum seekers are equivalent.
                                                  Once an asylum seeker has received refugee status they are already equivalent for employment purposes.
                                                  Anyway it's highly unlikely that this law will be abolished. Because it would incentivize even more economic migration.
                                                  [–]kanintesova 11 points12 points13 points  (1 child)
                                                  In Sweden we have cases where immigrants get the jobs even though we have someone much more qualified to do it - because racism.
                                                  But we also have women in many positions where men were more qualified - because equality.
                                                  This is what happens when you let politicans rule with feelings instead of common sense.
                                                  [–]NorwayNebuchanderTheGreat 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
                                                  Same in Norway. Because of my penis I didn't get accepted to my most wanted programme of study. Now I have to take an extra year because I miss some courses that were unique to that programme.
                                                  [–]delfink 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                  i have contact with some refugees. many of them had to cancel their study because of the war, so they have no degree. they told me, that they don't need or don't have vocational training in syria. they just go to work after school. they also don't really need a driver license there. it will take a lot of time until they are able to normally work here. at least they all want to start working asap. i was suprised how many of them were students.
                                                  i have only a small samplesize, because i only know the guys in our village and some of their friends.
                                                  [–]GermanyLATR_Lext0n 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                                                  all they will do is stealing our kids minimum wage jobs.
                                                  [–]steven2502 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                                                  i dont want to be mean or racist or whatever.. but i think this is something we all knew before..
                                                  [–]United KingdomCasualview 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
                                                  Maybe they can get a job at Amazon
                                                  [–]notheresnolight 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                                                  the river, right ?
                                                  [–]United KingdomCasualview 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                                                  Kek
                                                  [–]Piet0816 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                                                  Well they definitely plug other gaps.
                                                  [–]Earthlymer555 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                  plug other gaps
                                                  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
                                                  [–]SoWoWMate 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
                                                  We knew this already a couple weeks ago.
                                                  [–]FlandersTerraNortex 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
                                                  Not the politicians, they still live in fantasy land.
                                                  [–]Irelanddickforbrain 2 points3 points4 points  (4 children)
                                                  Can't we just start paying the Germans to have more children? I mean it would take about 25 years to see the benefit but if they set a target birthrate of (Population in millions/Life Expectancy in years)= About 1 million babies per year for Germany to smooth out the kinks in their demographic problems over the next century. Right now they are having about 650k per year. If we added about 350k + an extra % to account for mortality under age 40 then Germany's population problem would begin to alleviate itself. This way wouldn't have to import culturally incompatible people in the name of supporting the labour market.
                                                  What sort of incentives could be put in place to increase the birthrate? Cheaper childcare? Allowance from the Eu/German Gov?
                                                  [–]VincentPepper [score hidden]  (1 child)
                                                  The people who would have more children because of financial incentives are probably not the ones you want having them.
                                                  [–]Irelanddickforbrain [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                  Except the expense of childcare/raising a family is often cited as the reason people have fewer children. Lower the cost of raising a family and there will be more families, no?
                                                  [–]GermanyNyxisto [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                  I know that r/europe is going to eat this up, but pay attention that this guy is a member of the IFO institute, a very conservative think tank, the same institute that regularly preaches monetary politics from outer space. There are differing economic opinions on this specific issue.
                                                  [–]Hungarytrey82 [score hidden]  (0 children)
                                                  They plug something else intsead apparently
                                                  [–]German, living in the NetherlandsOda_Krell 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                                                  Refugees won’t plug German labor gap
                                                  Perhaps true for Syrian refugees in particular, but as a general statements about migrants, that claim is in direct contradiction to a statement by a leading German economic research institute that I posted about a few days ago.
                                                  According to them, during the strong German job market of the past decade, many positions (around 50% by their estimates) were filled by migrants / inhabitants with migration background.
                                                  Link to the FAZ article here:
                                                  And here's the thread I opened about it:
                                                  Another observation: The link I posted is sitting at 3 points, ~50%/50% up/downvoted. This one (claiming that migrants won't integrate, ever) is at 300 points, 88% upvoted. I don't give a fuck about the karma, but, boy, has this sub changed lately.
                                                  [–]NoOneWhere 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                  You're mixing up economic immigrants (those who did get an workpass beforehand) and refugees & economic welfareseekers. Economic immigrants in general are motivated, know what they're up to etc (and tend to seek out what to do and not to do).
                                                  Refugees? Big joke.
                                                  [–]^ doesn't actually live in the EUMapleyy[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                  It's an interesting article that you linked, but I think it more so focuses on migration to Germany in general merely as opposed to employment of refugees alone, but it's a start.
                                                  And I've got to agree with you on the climate in this subreddit – it's horribly toxic and xenophobic (guy who replied to you is spouting the crap about "economic migrants" again) and I wish it could just go back to being the way it was before the crisis, though I do think that there's an issue with the low level of educational attainment among Syrian refugees. I think that a lot of the people have too much of a knee-jerk reaction to it, though; consider the fact that those who were able to come here were able to afford it, indicating that they've already been somewhat successful in Syria, that migrants tend to be more entrepreneurial, and that they're likely to be more motivated to work or learn (especially after some have spent years waiting for the war to end waiting in refugee camps). It's a self-selected group who have come, and it's undoubtedly quite a good one.
                                                  The thing about refugees is that we're not supposed to pick them based on their economic benefit that they would confer or their level of education – the purpose of taking them in is to save them from war and persecution, and it doesn't really make sense to argue about their economic value or education – it's not a matter of whether to take them in, but how to help them find their place in society; while many will wish to return after the war is over, most will probably stay – whether because they have to or because they wish to. It's the responsibility of the states that take them in to educate them and make them useful, and getting them to work is undoubtedly the best way to integrate them. The continent is short of both skilled and unskilled labor; it's a bit misleading to construe it as a shortage of just one, as the article I linked here does, but ensuring that a high standard of education is provided to refugees is imperative to this.
                                                  [–]PolandTerneuzen55 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                                                  taking in refugees that are not influenced by totalitarian Islam makes sense since they are (and they will be) struggling with labor shortage, but the idea of welcoming Muslim men in their 20s and 30s to countries where unemployment is already very high (>10%) is a pure absurd.
                                                  And it's the responsibility of socialist governments that are trying to satisfy their voters and try to raise another unemployed generation of socialist's voters that is dependent on public money.
                                                  [–]Propagation931 -15 points-14 points-13 points  (18 children)
                                                  Send them to School then
                                                  [–]GermanyMarktpLatz 3 points4 points5 points  (17 children)
                                                  Guess what - thats we are doing/intending to do. The problem is that they need language proficiency first which is a bit problematic currently due to a lack of German teachers and late access to german courses due to administrative rules.
                                                  [–][deleted]  (16 children)
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