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TIL In 1955 Hugh Hefner released a short story about straight men being persecuted in a gay world. After receiving numerous hatemail, he released a statement saying "If it was wrong to persecute heterosexuals in a homosexual society then the reverse was wrong, too." (en.wikipedia.org)

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[–]Nowin 273ポイント274ポイント  (176子コメント)

Yeah, not going to lie, but some of the people in those pride parades think the only way to show pride is through me seeing one's penis.

[–]turroflux 218ポイント219ポイント  (175子コメント)

While I don't agree with going full stripper mode during Pride, you realize the entire point of Pride is that the person doesn't care what you're thinking, or if you agree or disagree, it's essentially a "fuck you society" parade.

Also very, very few parades will have fully naked people, or allow them even, the worst you'll get is attractive guys in speedos, which isn't any worse than Mardi Gras honestly.

[–]sonofaresiii 330ポイント331ポイント  (52子コメント)

it's essentially a "fuck you society" parade.

and here i was thinking it was a parade to celebrate pride in one's homosexuality

silly me

[–]turroflux 160ポイント161ポイント  (40子コメント)

A large part of pride, especially when it's for something formally deemed bad by society, is rejecting the opinions of society, so you can take personal pride in yourself without worrying about what the rest of society thinks or wants.

It's not a strange concept, you can't be confident enough to have pride in anything if you are hung up on every nay-sayer.

You're forgetting the context of pride, which is to serve as a way to show queer people struggling with them selves that they don't need to hide or be ashamed. The more garish and in your face the show, the harder it is to miss and ignore. It was never about showing up straight people, or making them uncomfortable, they aren't a consideration.

[–]pbmummy 34ポイント35ポイント  (9子コメント)

It was never about showing up straight people, or making them uncomfortable, they aren't a consideration.

I don't buy this. They wouldn't be so garish if they didn't know that it was outside social norms, a gay man or woman is not garish by nature, they respond that way to flout oppression. They're fully aware of whose hackles they're raising and that's sort of the point.

[–]fluffstravels 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's really not though. If you meet these same people privately - they may be exactly the same. Society kinda forces them underground and the parade gives them a chance to feel like they don't have to hide. If they weren't forced to hide it normally, would it be less pronounced when it comes out? I'd probably guess yes but that's not the way we operate in America at least.

[–]pbmummy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of them may be garish and theatrical by nature for sure, I just think all of those tendencies are intertwined with first being in the closet and then coming out, and as a byproduct those tendencies are ramped up to the nth degree. If we lived in a world where gays were not othered and persecuted, would folks feel the need for assless chaps, diapers and rattlers, greased thighs and spangled speedos? Somehow I doubt it.

Not that it makes me a certified spokesman for My People or anything, but I'm gay, and the thought of being separate from straight people is always somewhere at the back of my mind. How could it not be?

All that being said, the Pride I've been to (Dallas, TX) has not displayed this type of behavior, it's just stuff I've read about or seen on the Internet in other places in the world.

[–]x755x [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

If they're a "do rude things in public" person and they were forced underground by society, I say GOOD. That behavior should be shunned.

This has nothing to do with the specific topic of their behavior, just a general concept of what's acceptable to do in public.

[–]PyroSpark [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Except a lot of times, those types of personalities only come from suppressing everything about themselves from day 1. So the MOMENT they can act without restrictions....

[–]ErmagerdSpace [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Have you ever been to a parade, any parade, that was not garish?

Is there a parade of blank floats where people sit quietly in sober attire?

That'd be a pretty fucking boring parade. And I would say Mardi Gras is as garish as any gay pride event despite (nominally) being a Catholic thing.

[–]third-eye-brown 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

a gay man or woman is not garish by nature

Da fuck? Reread that sentence. Gay people can be garish the same way anyone can be garish. That's the point of pride. It means having the balls to do what you want.

[–]pbmummy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, a better way to express my thoughts would be saying that gay people are just as varied as straight people, inasmuch that some can be garish and outgoing by nature and others can be more staid and serious. Gay people as a whole cannot be judged by one personality type.

However, the point I'm trying to make still stands: not all of the ones who are in-your-face are that way by nature, they develop that way as a response to oppression. In a different world they wouldn't go the full hog about their sexuality because the need to wouldn't exist.

[–]x755x [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Come on, you can connect these dots in your head. Clearly they meant that a gay man or woman is not garish by nature of their sexuality.

You have a legitimate point, but don't pretend to be confused by what they're saying.

[–]wpiman 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I understand what you are saying, but these sorts of displays certainly don't help generate general acceptance.

I think the idea is kids who feel like they don't belong can see the parade and think that a community exists for them out there. That is noble.

But I imagine the downside is these parades that happen once a use set gay right back 6 months.

[–]turroflux 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

How exactly do they set gay rights back? Any evidence to this? Because the only evidence says the opposite, that the more obscene prides have gotten, the more rights gay people have gotten?

Do women have to worry about their rights be revoked because Mardi Gra had way too many tits out in the open? Do the Irish-Americans have to worry about discrimination because of St-Patricks day?

[–]teleekom -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because the only evidence says the opposite, that the more obscene prides have gotten, the more rights gay people have gotten

I really doubt that advancement in gay rights have anything to do with gay prides

[–]turroflux 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then you really don't understand pride, the history, meaning, effects or just about anything about it.

Pride is intrinsically part of the gay rights movement, from the beginning.

[–]miniflip10 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

People say that feminism sets sexism back, BLM sets racism back, and the pride parades sets gay rights back. Are you seeing a correlation?

[–]wpiman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are pros and cons to all movements.

I am sure the Black Panther Party didn't help the racism movement.

Militant feminism probably earned a few detractors.

The point is the parades show youth who don't fit in that there is a community for them. That is what is important.

[–]TryingT0Wr1t3 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You guys don't have the Whores March in USA?

[–]ThatForearmIsMineNow 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not just homosexuality but yeah, you're right.

[–]pudgypenguin22 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not, there's a subtle distinction to be made. No one is celebrating homosexuality per se because there's nothing per se good or bad about homosexuality. People celebrate being openly gay when everyone (society) tells them not to be.

[–]sonofaresiii 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

oh okay, then we can shut down the parade, because society doesn't tell people that being openly gay is wrong anymore.

there are still a lot of assholes and bigots out there who say being openly gay is wrong, and i was under the impression that the gay pride parade was to inspire pride in those who are gay to help them overcome those assholes who tell them to be ashamed of themselves

but you're telling me it's exclusively against society? Well, society as a whole is already accepting of it so let's pack it up, guys, mission accomplished.

[–]fluffstravels 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's more of a sexuality pride parade in all its forms. Bisexuality and heterosexuality included. I'm sure it varies city to city but at least in NYC it's more about not being ashamed for what gets you off

[–]baby_jamie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To me, taking pride in something other people find shameful kind of necessitates a "fuck you" mindset. I don't see any contradiction here.

[–]dcfogle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What is so difficult to understand? To get society to accept and welcome you, you need to have a big "fuck you society" parade.

[–]PyroSpark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It really is both, though.

[–]Whiskey-Tango-Hotel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Aren't you repeating what he said? Last I checked pride in inherent qualities tends to be very closely synonymous with arrogance.

Of course I'd say this form of arrogance is working, because it hypes people up, raises awareness, makes homosexuality a topic worth discussing, promotes action and exposes homophobes before they get close to someone and drag them down the cognitive dissonance well.

[–]Checkoutmygatos -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is. Part of some people's sexuality is being naked in public. Also, they've had to care so much about what society thinks because they've been marginalized that they can finally say "fuck society's standards" in a safe place.

[–]dee_c -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I perform a "fuck you society" all the time by just being myself and doing what I want. Never felt the need to wear a top hat that's shaped like a dick that glitter shoots out of the top.

I guess I just dont get it.

[–]elastic-craptastic 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've been to the parade in SF, Boston, and New Orleans(I think... long time ago) I only saw a couple floats that were a it too over the top with sexual "suggestion"... and they just had strap-ons.

It's some of the crowd that gathers that makes it uncomfortable for some of the bystanders. The "clothes" some people chose to go out in would easily get many in trouble for indecent exposure. Otherwise it's always a great party and, depending where you work, a great excuse to be late.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because for the most part the parades are tame as hell, yet straight guys, who have likely never been to a parade, seem to know all about them, their purpose, their effect on society and what they should be doing to appease them.

[–]Quickjager 32ポイント33ポイント  (49子コメント)

Yea but how are people who don't care about the parade enough to research it supposed to know if the people participating in it are tasteful or assholes?

I mean when people hear Pride Parade they think leather chaps.

[–]caelum19 -1ポイント0ポイント  (48子コメント)

I agree. I know it's society that is at fault for all the homophobia, but a "Fuck you society" parade is not going to make things easier for homosexuals.

Edit: /u/ThatForearmIsMineNow has changed my view. I'm still of the opinion that the parade creates more friction, but I'd say that there are also some positive effects that make it worth it.

[–]ThatForearmIsMineNow 34ポイント35ポイント  (23子コメント)

a "Fuck you society" parade is not going to make things easier for homosexuals.

Actually it kind of does for some people. Being able to express yourself however you want to when you're otherwise forced in the closet can be extremely helpful.

[–]mfball 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Connected to that, I think people totally misunderstand that Pride isn't a PR event trying to convince people that the LGBT community is worthy of respect and acceptance. LGBT people are forced to do that pretty much every day of their lives, so Pride is actually supposed to be a break from constantly having to be model representatives of the community where everybody can just let loose and have fun for a change.

[–]ROKMWI 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yes, but the point was that others aren't going to view them as normal if they go "Fuck you society".

That old couple probably would have had no problem had there been a gay couple in the room next door, if they behave just like any other couple.

[–]Pupsbear 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's the thing, it's not about normalcy. It's about celebrating and being proud of who you are as a person. It's the one day of year that lgbt people who are inclined to partake in the parade have that they don't have to put up a bullshit facade and just let their queerness shine. It's celebrating that small difference.

I'm a gay man, unfortunately we don't really have much in the way of gay pride parades in Australia except for Mardi Gras. But I'd definitely join in the festivities if i were there. But i agree that full blown nudity and sex acts is a step too far. Assless chaps, tits out, skimpy clothing are all sweet. Even dressing up as a giant buttplug is fine. Making out and maybe some lascivious sexualised dsncing is all good. But keep the genitalia covered.

[–]ROKMWI 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What I mean is that the old couple might not be against a homosexuals, just the parade. Similarly, if there was a heterosexual celebration that had those themes, they would probably cancel their booking just the same.

[–]geekygirl23 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just as they'd be cool with Satanists or any other religion.

[–]ROKMWI 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly. If the satanists act just like anyone else, they probably won't even realise they are satanists.

[–]geekygirl23 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah that's bullshit. If there were a Satanist pride parade in that lobby they'd probably also skip.

[–]ThatForearmIsMineNow 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

We're talking one week in a fucking year. The Pride parade is not about the old couple, it's about the one time a group of people can express themselves. You don't seem to be aware of how much this can actually help some people.

If the old couple can't grasp it, fuck them, who cares? Pride is not for them, and I doubt they would support it even if Pride was different.

Stop trying to define what Pride should be, and stop saying that people are doing Pride wrong, because it's not about you.

[–]ROKMWI 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What?

Were talking about an old couple refusing to go to a hotel because of this happening. So what if it happens on once a year? It was obviously happening for them to cancel!

All I was saying was that the old couple might not be homophobic at all.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Generating enemies that will continue dragging those individuals into alleys and beating them senseless or worse will not help them.

[–]Pupsbear 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

They don't generate enemies. Those that do commit such acts would have done so regardless. They already had hatred or intolerance towards lgbt people. It's just easier for then to do it during such parades because "they offended me".

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As you say. But I'd personally rather see bigots like this stripped of their ammo rather than supplied it by the armful.

[–]ThatForearmIsMineNow 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Those don't exist because of Pride. The Pride Parade is a somewhat recent addition, and what you're talking about has existed forever, and is a result of structural oppression.

There is a reason why LGBT+ groups love Pride. If you don't like it, you don't have to. Go somewhere else, Pride is not for you anyway.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Pride's been happening since the 60s. And yes, that mentality has existed since long before them, but obscenely and intentionally rubbing it in the faces of those shitty individuals isn't helping anyone, is all I'm saying.

Swinging your helicopter dick around for a few hours may feel good, but if it earns the animosity of people who you could be trying to form positive relationships with, is it worth it?

To some, obviously, it just seems counterproductive to me. "You know how I can attempt to facilitate meaningful cultural exchange and discourse between our two communities? Shoving my culture in your face and screaming at you to deal with it."

[–]ThatForearmIsMineNow 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you believe that showing one's dick is even close to the majority of what Pride is about, then you must be really biased.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course not, it's about minority visibility and casting aside fear from prejudice by exposure to public. I've attended two pride parades in Indianapolis, it was a great time.

We're specifically address some of the more negative aspects of pride parades that can get out of hand and damage public images. It's clearly not that I think that it's what pride'd about, it's just a discussion over those borderline obscene behaviors impact perception, and whether it's more important to feel good doing them or opt for more civil discourse on the interest in generating allies.

All I'm getting at here is that if you want to take your dick around, that's cool, but maybe, just maybe, we should consider the consequences of those actions instead of crossing our arms, huffing, and screaming "I do what I want and fuck everybody who doesn't like it!" And then wondering why it generates opposition.

[–]caelum19 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

That is a good point and something I did not consider.

Δ

[–]austin101123 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lol

[–]caelum19 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just realised that could have came off as sarcastic, I was being sincere :)

Or is it funny because I used a Delta to denote that s/he changed my opinion?

[–]merpalurp 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

They can have a parade where anybody can be themselves without judgement while living in a society where they feel persecuted and judged (at some level), a parade that tries to ease tension/ignorance/lack of contact/cultural divide/hostility and bring everyone together by minimizing and hiding provocative material, or one somewhere in the middle. Different cities (different organizers) choose different routes. Personally I like the idea of a parade where, while living in a world where being gay is predominantly a disadvantage or felt as awkward or seen as disability/curse and is known to lead to suicide/depression due to the commonality of struggles coping with it, participants can spend the day not caring what others think and not trying to hide who they are. And I'd support other people showing their true selves, uncensored so to speak, acting unafraid, even if I have to close my eyes when an old man's dong falls out.

tl;dr the point of the parade is not to change society, it's to take something that's frequently hidden and show it off, not being afraid of what other's think

[–]Dolphin_Titties 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah man, you tell em what they want and need.

[–]Whiskey-Tango-Hotel -4ポイント-3ポイント  (9子コメント)

I disagree, Pride Parade is like fighting fire with explosives, it has a very specific purpose and that is to prompt homophobes to vocalize their discontent so that they expose their darker side before they suck in more people into the idea, it creates a great divide between homophobes and non-homophobes, but as homophobes grow old and die, non-homophobes are the younger generation who saw better than to follow their elders' footsteps.

At least how I perceive it, but neither of us is going to know any better anyway.

[–]ROKMWI -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

it creates a great divide between homophobes and non-homophobes

Or between heterosexuals and homosexuals?

So now when an old couple hears the term "gay" they think of "their darker side", rather than a normal couple.

[–]Whiskey-Tango-Hotel 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

They always did though; From their pastors, from their family, from their society. Now, however, younger generations that are not as prude and have not been affected through social pressure to be a homophobe will see the darker side of their elders and question the whole idea that adults know better or whether respect your elders spills into respect their opinion category as well. Not only that but it calls to arms as it promotes the idea of activism, generates support for those that need it and environment they can feel comfortable in (in essence boosting person's self image and confidence). Of course it's a thin ice they're walking on as it can generate too much extremism in the other direction, but on the other hand I'd say it's well worth it.

[–]ROKMWI -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

If they are for some reason preaching that homosexuality is a sin, something like a pride parade will just confirm it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that non-homophobic people are going to see people who are against pride parade, and think they are homophobic, and because of that lose all their respect for them? How is that even a good thing?

[–]my_toast_sings 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

If they are for some reason preaching that homosexuality is a sin, something like a pride parade will just confirm it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that non-homophobic people are going to see people who are against pride parade, and think they are homophobic, and because of that lose all their respect for them? How is that even a good thing?

Because we don't give a shit about what they think. Literally no shits. That's the point that none of you are getting. The parade isn't the the legions of quivering, fake "allies" who concern-troll over how lewd Pride parades can be. They're about us, and about having a good time expressing our queerness, especially for those who can't do that on a daily basis because they're in the closet.

[–]ROKMWI 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

So why would it matter if someone doesn't want to book a room at some place where this is happening?

And I was asking what you meant by this:

younger generations that are not as prude and have not been affected through social pressure to be a homophobe will see the darker side of their elders and question the whole idea that adults know better or whether respect your elders

Its gets rather difficult to read when you decide to write out everything in one long sentence without any commas or full stops.

[–]Nowin 6ポイント7ポイント  (11子コメント)

"fuck you society" for a parade of acceptance.

[–]OpticCostMeMyAccount 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because they weren't accepted. Fuck your society because they were denied there rights.

[–]turroflux -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

That is what you don't get, it's about personal acceptance, not acceptance by you.

[–]Curious_Swede -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Then why parade it? There are support groups for less than that.

[–]toastymow 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then why parade it?

Because: FUCK YOU SOCIETY. FUCK YOU for telling me what is or isn't acceptable. FUCK YOU for shaming me, calling me slurs, attacking my friends, making me feel ashamed. FUCK YOU for abandoning my community, sending our youth to the streets to become whores and addicts. FUCK YOU for not allowing me the same rights as other citizens of this country AND FUCK YOU for doing all this but saying that you still love me and if I would just "be like everyone else" everything would be okay.

[–]turroflux 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the benefit of other queer people, hiding or ashamed.

[–]Nowin -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Okay, personally I don't accept penises in my face. Other than that, gay people are awesome.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you're close enough to a pride parade to have penises in your face, I think there may be other issues at play.

[–]Nowin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So we should keep them separate but equal?

[–]Nowin -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

And why the fuck can't I have pride for my gay friends and family just because I don't personally like penises in my face?

[–]turroflux -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nothing is stopping you from showing your support for your friends and family, you must realize however that your sensibilities aren't important on gay pride, the parade isn't about not offending people, or being family friendly. It never was.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not about heterosexuals accepting homosexuals. It's about homosexuals telling other homosexuals that they accept them, even when heterosexuals reject them.

Not everything we do is for your approval.

[–]RussianGrammarJudge -5ポイント-4ポイント  (27子コメント)

Well as Society I say put your dicks away.

[–]PrinterRepairSpec 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe as soon as heterosexuals stop throwing their sexuality in society's face in every single billboard, commercial, movie, tv show, not to mention even at "regular" parades there's often women dancing who are just barely shy of naked.

Or maybe neither is bad but you're just bigoted and blind yourself to one while getting buttmad about one parade when it comes from the other side

[–]PhillWithTwoLs 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ignore him everybody, he's Russian, clearly a massive homophobe.

[–]turroflux -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

You should show up at pride and tell those nude guys to put their dicks away, I'm sure they'll listen to you.

[–]ROKMWI -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're saying they are nice, decent, people?

[–]known0thing -4ポイント-3ポイント  (18子コメント)

I didn't know we elected you supreme spokesperson of the hivemind. I'll have to check with me, me and me to decide if we should expel the me that is you into the wilderness.

[–]RussianGrammarJudge -4ポイント-3ポイント  (17子コメント)

Is that a defense for gay pride parades being detrimental to the image of gays because they're a step short of a public orgy?

[–]known0thing 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, that was a jab at you for playing the part of the god of narcissists and acting like you speak for society. But you're free to extract whatever nonexistent opinion you need me to have to justify your argument if you want.

[–]VannaTLC -4ポイント-3ポイント  (15子コメント)

Whats wrong with a consenting public orgy?

[–]AllegedMongolian -1ポイント0ポイント  (14子コメント)

Mostly that nudity in public is illegal, sexual acts in public are illegal, and forcing your sexuality onto unwilling bystanders is wrong.

[–]ben1105 -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

Mostly that nudity in public is illegal,

No. Nudity of a sexual nature is illegal. Just plain nudity is fine almost anywhere that isn't a theocracy.

and forcing your sexuality onto unwilling bystanders is wrong.

The unwilling bystanders... attending a pride parade? No one is making you go.

[–]AllegedMongolian -2ポイント-1ポイント  (12子コメント)

Uh, check your laws. Where I live it's illegal, and most places it is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecent_exposure The type of nudity on display at a Pride parade falls under this, as well as sexual acts in public. You realize parades like Pride shut down a huge part of the city? People might just be there out for the day, shooing and eating, and then wham, big stream of dicks in their face. That's wrong.

[–]known0thing -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

What, you mean people who pay taxes have a right to use public land? Funny thing, essentially everyone who takes part in gay pride events also pay taxes and probably aren't shutting down city blocks without a permit.

[–]ben1105 -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Here's an idea, go read the fucking link that you provided. Nakedness isn't automatically indecent exposure. Most of the time "decency" is left to the prerogative of the judge based on context.

Every state has different statues on what constitutes indecent, and some states even leave it to the local level. As far as "most" countries are concerned? Again, read your own link. All across Europe, the UK, Canada - again, basically anywhere that isn't a muslim theocracy or backwards third world shithole, it's NOT illegal to simply be naked.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yes. And as has been said, that can be obscene and harmful to the image. It doesn't matter their mentality or reasoning... it can fully be their intent, but it isn't helping bridge the gap to acceptance.

I mean, if the choices are build relationships between the LGBTQ community and the rest of society, or wave your dick around screaming "Fuck you!", one may feel better, but the other is more productive to the movement.

which isn't any worse than Mardi Gras

Many people also consider Mardi Gras obscene.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Pride isn't about helping straight people gain acceptance of gay people, it never was. It's about showing other queer people that there are others like them, it's about casting off societal shame about who you are, it's about embracing your own identity.

It isn't about straight people. It's a hard concept to grasp for many straight people, but queer people can organize something without it being about what straight people think or want.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's cool, but can you see how intentionally alienating straight people through public obscenity is potentially harmful? I don't care about whatever hippie bullshit feelgood nonsense you're preaching, I'm talking about forming healthy and positive relations between two groups.

I understand that you may not care, but you need to recognizing that "not caring" is a harmful mentality. The Klan probably doesn't care that people get up set when they throw their hoods on and drive down the street waving guns and confederate flags, but I'm sure they feel awesome doing it. And that's certainly within their right, but it certainly doesn't assist in meaningful discourse.

Just say "I'm not interested in peaceful discourse between straights and gays." You'll feel better. You're like a big gay Malcolm X, and that's fine, but understand that it was King's tactics that won that cool rights battle.

[–]turroflux 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sure we can both have gay pride and good relations. Oh wait, we already do, because gay pride is still here and gay rights are still progressing. Because it's not an issue, except for a few people who might be uncomfortable, who aren't worth the consideration. There are more anti-gay bigots then there are people with a problem with what pride is like, should be bend to their will as well? Wouldn't want to sour relations with those types?

Also you're comparing some guy with his dick out for a couple hours once a year to the Klan and Malcom X?

How about we can both have equal rights, and a pride parade that doesn't censor itself for straight people? Because that seems more likely that you're veiled attempts at suggesting that a couple nude guys during a parade make gays like the klan.

I think for a couple hours, once a year, gay people can act a little obscene, without the entire gay rights movement regressing back the being jailed for being gay.

[–]geekygirl23 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

So obscene and harmful to the image. Before these pride parades society was much more accepting of two penises touching behind closed doors.

but it isn't helping bridge the gap to acceptance.

Bull to the shit. It put these issues in the spotlight on a regular basis. It gave homophobic assholes reasons to show their true colors ,"look at those faggots", and it spawned discussions on the subject millions of times. If you think this had no cumulative effect you are crazy.

I'm tired as shit, could have worded better but saying fuck you to society while half naked has been far more productive to the movement than any bridges that have been built.

[–]Tyg13 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really doesn't make any sense, man. Speaking as someone who plays both sides of the fence, whenever I hear about pride parades or get invited to one (okay that only happened once) it makes me cringe just a little inside. I get being able to be free and open about your sexuality, to let it out and not care about society. But the majority of people who aren't into that are going to find it just off-putting.

Just like if you had nearly half-naked women and men prancing around screaming "yay heterosexuality" in a notoriously gay district, I'm sure there would be more than a few people complaining. People should be able to celebrate what they love without having to put it in other people's faces. It would be a lot better for gays and lesbians to do that sort of thing in a private place, and you could get away with a lot more that way. I'm not saying segregate yourself, but if you want to celebrate why does it have to be out in public? Isn't it more about feeling prideful in yourself? And hooking up with people at the parade, let's not pretend those things aren't swimming in casual sex, not that there's anything wrong with that ;).

No, it seems more like you're trying to bait a reaction, and I find that pointlessly aggressive. We're already making leaps and bounds in LGBT acceptance in many many countries as people realize that LGBT people are just like normal people. All it takes is for non-LGBT people to stop thinking of them as a different class. So of course we feel the need to go out in public and put this image in people's heads that we're these half-naked freaks who like waving rainbow flags and putting our dicks in people's faces.

There are certain people, a personal example would be my own father, who started out homophobic because they had a certain image of what gays were like, but then found that their preconceptions were entirely false. That LGBT people are not vulgar, immoral, hedonistic people, they are just people who happen to have a different sexuality. You lose those people when you selfishly parade around shouting "fuck you" to society, basically proving their mental image of what gay people are. Notice, no one except bigots have a problem with gay people who don't make a big deal about it. And those people who are on the edge, you send them to the wrong side with the pride parade message. It says, "We're gay, and you don't like us, and we don't like you, and we're proud of it anyways." Once again, needlessly antagonistic and childish.

[–]geekygirl23 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

All I said is that the in your face nature of the type of parades you are referencing led to conversations exactly like this. News articles, blogs, Facebook posts, reddit post, even Digg posts! The conversations spawned allowed points to be made, opinions to change, etc. It put the topic in the spotlight to even allow opinions to change and I'd say it was more effective at that than most things.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you say so man. What ever makes your big gay feelings big gay feel better.

You get some big gay rest, man.

[–]TyroneBiggums93 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

But what does wearing that ridiculous obscene clothing have to do with being gay? If anything the parades hurt the community because it paints them as very far from the mainstream, when in reality most gay people aren't very different than straight people. I just think the whole thing is silly and damaging because it gives old people and bigots an excuse to be disgusted and shocked when a family member comes out.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Old people and bigots are already shocked when a family member comes out, they don't need an excuse.

What does obscene clothing have to do with being gay? Everything. It highlights the key difference between gay and straight people, sexuality, which for the longest time meant gay people were already very, very far away from the mainstream. Nothing they did had any effect on that. Putting on a suit and tie didn't change that for society at large, people wouldn't even shake your hand. So they might as well dressed how they find sexually provocative, since society makes a huge deal about their sexuality, they might as well wear it and flaunt it.

[–]TyroneBiggums93 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

In the defense of old people, if they thought that gay pride parades were representative of how gay people look and act, than being disgusted is an understandable reaction. But gay people aren't that way which is why I think the whole thing is stupid.

[–]turroflux 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

From personal experience, most old people don't take pride parades into consideration when they spout their opinions. They tend to focus on either religion, or the sexual acts.

You think the thing is silly because of how it makes gay people look, but it's hardly an issue when your very lifestyle is disgusting to them. Why would anyone already hated for who they are cater their actions for those same people? Surely, given human nature, gay people would go out of their way reject their opinions?

When you're seen as sexually perverse, on the level of pedophilia to some old people, how exactly is a leather speedo going to do any more harm?

[–]TyroneBiggums93 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess you're right about old people who already have their minds made up because of religion and such. Maybe it's more applicable to the young idiots who hate gays because it's "yucky". They see the parades on TV and it only reinforces their feelings.

[–]PilotLights -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I definitely know people that would think Mardi Gras was ridiculously obscene.

edit to add: not saying I agree with those people. I was merely stating that most people I know who would be against Pride parades would also be against Mardi Gras.

[–]turroflux -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course, any nudity in public to some people might as well be an orgy in the middle of their living room with their kids forced to watch.

[–]city1002 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

If it is 'essentially' a fuck-you-society parade then wouldn't people have a genuine reason to dislike them and stay away from them?

[–]shayhtfc -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, so its surprising when some in society say "fuck you" back??

[–]turroflux -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Fuck you back? What did you think gay people just decided one day to reject society for no good reason? Or did society start with rejecting gay people and gay people responded by rejecting societal expectations.

[–]shayhtfc 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

When you dance around naked in public waving your cock in everyone's faces, don't be surprised when some old people say "we don't want to hang around those queers".

Its hardly rocket science. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're immune from negative judgement!

[–]turroflux 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've clearly never been to a pride parade, the tiny amount of people who dress like that are attendees usually. The official parade is tame as hell. Also no one is surprised when old people say bigoted things, then again those bigoted old people also have never been to a pride parade.

[–]ROELtja -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

LOOK AT ME NOW DAD

[–]rxsheepxr -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone hasn't been to Toronto Pride. The last time I was there I saw more dicks than at a gumshoe convention.

[–]-Mithos- -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And "fuck you society" parades are, to me, all to be avoided regardless of whst they're about. Because it's always a bunch of assholes that just want the opportunity to do whatever they want. And the only people that seek such an opportunity are people that want to do rude, fucked-up shit without consequences.

Mardi Gras and Burning Man abd Spring Break are just three more that just leave a huge mess and are mostly composed of jackasses.

[–]apophis-pegasus -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

it's essentially a "fuck you society" parade.

Theres a problem with that. They live in society. Society is the one allowing you to do this. So saying "fuck you, we dont give a damn what you think" isnt portraying the best image when you want to be accepted by it.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please read up on the history of the pride parade before you make ignorant comments about it.

For many gay people, they didn't live in society, if they were out or exposed they were pariahs, they'd be fired, put out by their families, harassed and assaulted by the police. This was the "society" they lived in. Society didn't allow them to do anything, they were jailed for engaging in homosexual behavior. This of course came to a head a stonewall, where queer people had to use force against the police just to be left alone. Gay pride is this idea of standing up and rejecting what society wants, because what society perhaps wants is you all dead, in jail or worse.

Gay pride isn't about being accepted, in truth when it was started nobody could have imagined being accepted by the rest of society. It's about forcing the fact they gay people exist into people's minds, it's about showing other queer people they don't need to hide or be ashamed, despite what society wants.

[–]kelustu -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Fuck you society now respect me society" is an odd message to send. Gay pride parades did MUCH less to advance gay rights than everyday people coming out as gay did.

[–]turroflux 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I would think so, given that gay pride was never about advancing gay rights. It was a about self-acceptance, personal pride. Showing other queer people that there were others like them out there, and that they didn't need to be ashamed or hide themselves.

This, however had the knock-on effect of increasing the number of gay people who came out.

Seriously the people behind these things have had to deal with these issues on a personal and national level for decades, they might know more than you about how best to advance their cause, which did consist of more than just one goal: Get straight people to like us.

They had a much harder goal first: Get gay people to like themselves. Or at least stop killing themselves.

As I said before, gay pride wasn't about straight people. It was about queer people, first and foremost.

[–]kelustu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dan Savage's "it gets better" videos were far more effective at that. As far as I can tell, all gay pride did was get abused by corporations for marketing, and it interested stupid basic girls who wanted to see man junk but not get hit on. The events trash neighborhoods and they're pretty awful to see.